Everyone’s offended these days(eev.ee) |
Everyone’s offended these days(eev.ee) |
-- I value my tiny little accumulation of rep here. Please don't down vote unless you really, really thought it through and mean it. And if in any way you agree, upvote, you know...to protect me. ;)
That's your loss, really.
I kind of have a hard time understanding the point the author is trying to make (apart from "Fry is an hypocrite").
It might be the writing, but it seems to me he constantly goes off a tangent.
>People who have so desensitized themselves to everything offensive that they’re offended by mere attempts to be considerate.
I feel like many of bullied are not getting the therapy they truly need. Instead, they are becoming the bullies through sites like Twitter and big companies, schools, and now even governments are catering to their whims because nobody wants the bad press.
The same feminist group that twitter appointed to ther new free-speech censorship board has said some of the most horrific stuff about men. It’s beyond offensive, yet there are no bannings or accountability.
These groups see direct results and the power they have over individuals.
It really needs to stops or we will have no freedoms left and the mentally ill will be in charge of our lives.
You can judge actions, moderate actions, reward actions... But feelings are harder to identify.
Which was sorta the point of this article, I guess. There's a good chance that everyone is offended... So, what are we gonna do about that? If everyone is offended - and if we stop trying to sort out who has a "right" to be and who doesn't - then these notions that some bad behavior is justified kinda start looking silly: if we're gonna welcome everyone into the proverbial pool, then we can't let anyone get away with abuse, including the system itself.
You're certainly allowed to do anything you wish for, just as you're allowed to discuss novels based solely on their title. However you seem quite offended, is that some sort of meta-acting demonstrating your original thesis through the medium of yourself?
Nevertheless, if you're discussing the title and ignoring the body, you're quite literally missing the forest for the tree, or in this case missing the forest for a signpost. This article is not a Cosmo listicle, its title is neither its meat nor its thesis, it's a starting point.
Edit: It's kind of like discussing the layout of the site. There are occasions when it's reasonable to do so, but generally people want to discuss the content.
Because not enough people do, I'll assume good faith here.
Thought experiment: if the feminists are just a handful of loud bullies, why does anyone care what they think? Why can they even get press outside of obscure publications of their own creation? Why do we actually pass laws to placate them?
If the rest of the world largely thought they were out of their minds and refused to entertain them, they'd have no power. Clearly they've convinced enough people that they're right, or at least pointed in the direction of right, that we try to help solve their problems, imperfectly as that may be… and imperfect it is! There's no Grand Poobah of feminists calling the shots, and different people have different ideas of how to go about things. Some of them will be wrong, and wrong ideas will gain traction anyway. These days, I see it as growing pains on the way to becoming a less horrible society.
On free speech: you have the right to hold your opinions, and to voice them in general. You have no right to demand that anyone listen to you, or that anyone give you space to speak. Even the law is more nuanced than people think: harassment is a crime, despite the first amendment.
Put simply, (but not meant as an insult) you're not thinking about anyone but yourself.
And yes, I see the potential for irony- that I'm on my soapbox, much like someone who is offended might be. But I'm not offended by anything that's been said. I'm not against criticism or disagreement or reasoned arguments. I'm just frustrated by the chilling effects that the prevailing cultural climate, which is humorless, politically-correct, and context-free, has had and will continue to have on public discourse.
Going back to the article, we have no way of knowing if Fry was ACTUALLY offended by the response he got on twitter. Perhaps he is as dispassionate as his post alleges. But he's walking a path well-worn by the offended.
If I had a nickel for every person who ranted about some perceived slight, words dripping with the common indications of hurt and ire, while repeatedly assuring readers that they were perfectly calm...
It's everyone else who is making a big deal out of him leaving Twitter, which (again) kind of proves his original point. Stephen Fry leaves Twitter. Well, so fucking what.
> “Now the pool is stagnant, …frothy with scum.” Fry’s feelings aren’t feelings — they are a universal and objective standard of behavior, which everyone else is violating.
When he says "stagnant, frothy with scum" I don't interpret that as him complaining about his feelings, but rather that the discussion/communication (which, I guess, is the ultimate purpose of any communication medium) has become impossible, precisely because people keep being offended and complaining about their feelings.
In short: He says Fry is trying to claim his subjective views as objective facts.
So you mean he's not offended --- rather, the other people violated some universal standard of behavior?
[1]: http://www.svt.se/kultur/film/stephen-fry-lamnar-twitter
It's the commentary about the platform and the people using it. Sure it's not exactly 9/11 but it's not THAT bizarre that someone picked it up.
You have to be careful. Some of the people who complain about others being offended all the time are the biggest babies.
[Edit] If he is leaving bc it is no fun anymore that is an excellent reason.
When I clicked this link I (genuinely) had to check the date, because Fry has been flouncing from Twitter for years.
And yes, flouncing is the word. Fry could quite easily stop using Twitter if he wanted to. He could just stop using it.
Instead he, not "everyone else", writes a lengthy post about the event on his website, perhaps for anyone who missed his leaving Twitter announcement of 2014, or his 2009 announcement about leaving Twitter.
That he has quit Twitter before makes it even more of a non-event, if possible.
We have a saying in Portugal: "Quem está mal que se mude" that can be roughly translated to "Who doesn't feel well [here] should/can move". It mean that anyone who is unconfortable here isn't obliged to stay here and is free to go anywhere else.
That's what Fry did. He is not happy with/in Twitter, so he went away. His "‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so fucking what." remark remains sound.
Which is not to say that there's no outrage here. But it tends to be a better sort of outrage, expressed by providing context and explaining what's wrong and what ought to be done.
The author seems to be suggesting that because everyone thinks their behavior is universal and objective, one cannot justifiably make this claim, and that every objective thrust must necessarily have emotional underpinnings. Maybe; but Fry never tries to invalidate others' feelings. Those offended tend to.
"“Will all you sanctimonious fuckers fuck the fuck off Jenny Beavan is a friend and joshing is legitimate."
Really?
> The subtext here is that cretinism is acceptable, but being a target is not. If you’re a total dick who only uses the Internet to seek out strangers and ruin their day for kicks, you are absolutely welcome. If you happen to be one such sought-out person, there’s the door. What kind of reasoning is that, and what kind of society does anyone think it’s going to create?
It's almost a call for more putting the blame in the right place, given that Twitter's sheer volume can take a grumble from an off-color joke at a party and multiply it by a thousand fold into something much harder to bear.
Whether the solution is technical or social, it seems like a real problem to me. We haven't had the ability to unify with similar voices in large numbers so quickly before. It should be unsurprising that when we do so for the first time we're a bit indiscriminate and heavy-handed with the power.
EDIT: I live in France and I have never observed that kind of behaviour in the Latin world or Eastern Europe for example. Most of the time when someone would say something "offensive" that doesn't directly impact the people in the room, the reaction goes along the lines of "Well, that's your opinion, whatever" or some form of polite debate.
Anyhow, it's a shame that it looks like only half the comments here are from people who read the article instead of just jumping to conclusions.
I don't suggest people who find themselves offended quit the Internet. But I do suggest that they, and everyone else, quit Twitter. You'll find you're much happier for it.
Given that, your advice does make some sense. If the problem is worse on certain platforms, people should be asking themselves if staying on those platforms is worth the price they pay. Of course this entails a trade-off - this article was right that there are no easy solutions to the problem.
Full disclosure - this is the only active account I have on anything remotely "social," although I do browse some of the other things without logging in, so I'm talking as something like an outside observer with a personal bias against the whole medium, precisely because I find the emotional echo-chamber off-putting and distracting.
I've been noticing this a lot lately, even on HN. Someone will mention equality or fairness and there will be a whole slew of people complaining about how people are too sensitive now-a-days. In reality, those complainers are being overly sensitive themselves.
Not really (for me). I couldn't care less if you're offended. But if you start attacking me because I offended you (or someone else), and start making the general discussion impossible ("pissing in the pool"), then of course I'll oppose you, not because I'm "triggered", but simply because I want my discussion back! (And also because I don't think people should be fired for having opinions.)
> Someone will mention equality or fairness and there will be a whole slew of people complaining
Only if they mention "equality" (e.g. affirmative action) and "fairness" (e.g. wage gap). That's not because our feeling are over-sensitive, but because we're over-sensitive to the bullshit arguments proponents of these ideas keep repeating as if they were the greatest achievements of logic and/or statistics.
> If you’re a total dick who only uses the Internet to seek out strangers and ruin their day for kicks, you are absolutely welcome. If you happen to be one such sought-out person, there’s the door.
Sums it up perfectly.
Stephen Fry wasn't "kicking" anyone. On the other hand, people who are offended usually do, they viciously attack others (even get them fired!).
I don't think the author was implying that Stephen Fry was the "kicker" in the quote above.
> Now, you’re the only Python developer at a Haskell conference. You go to a talk, and one slide makes a joke at Python’s expense. The entire room laughs. Suddenly you feel much smaller, maybe embarrassed, maybe annoyed. It was still only one person making one joke, but that person clearly had more influence here
I'm not sure what the author is trying to accomplish here. Maybe they thought they were "pandering to the audience." But I found this metaphor to be inappropriate, poorly formed, and implicitly draws a comparison between 1st world technical choices and actual harassment.
While we can respect other people's feelings, at some point we have to draw a line and say, "This is something where you may be able to brush it off, since it's basically an arbitrary choice you made that you could unmake at any time." As opposed to the deeply-rooted and often immutable nature of subjects that are axis of discrimination elsewhere, such as someone's race or personal gender identity.
Either this author has so little respect for their audience that they think this metaphor will actually speak to the average and intended reader (in which case, wow... you genuinely think I'm stupid), or they genuinely believe that these sorts of things are in a similar category.
Either way, I get a really bad feeling from it.
This is actually the opposite of what the post says.
The subtext here is that cretinism is acceptable, but being a target is not. If you’re a total dick who only uses the Internet to seek out strangers and ruin their day for kicks, you are absolutely welcome. If you happen to be one such sought-out person, there’s the door. What kind of reasoning is that, and what kind of society does anyone think it’s going to create?
That is a paragraph from later in the article.
People seldom take perspective and context in account. Especially if they all go into the angry mob mentality as you mention which I'm pretty sure we have seen plenty of times.
Part of the problem is the speed that the Internet affords us. People feel the need/urge to respond to things instantly, which often prevents them from taking a breath to get some perspective or maybe to even do some fact checking.
"It’s fine that no one cares about whatever dorky thing you’re into, but wow why would you make fun of the sacred and hallowed Super Bowl, which is so important to so many people, how could you be so inconsiderate"
and the strawman couldn't be more blatant absent some flame emoji.
Now, she didn't reference the tweets which provided the supposed context, but everyone's probably heard the "Ha ha, sportsball!" jokes from people who don't enjoy athletics. The problem isn't that people are making jokes about the popularity of sports, it's that the joke really isn't funny. Instead, it perpetuates the behavior the author claims to oppose — rather than be pleasant with one another and take at least a conversational interest in what someone's saying...let's be inconsiderate and vitriolic about one another's hobbies! This is wrong whether said hobby is football or League cosplay.
"I don’t think too many people are wanting for someone who’ll listen to them talk about football."
The strawman continues with vague references to undefined populations that strip people of their individuality. They're all rude sports bros, while we're enlightened board gamers.
"Yet I haven’t seen any comics and snarky jokes suggesting that sports fans listen to their friends rave about Warhammer.
Must not have been paying too much attention. Here ya go, guy is a pretty popular standup who notoriously loves nerds, hates sports, and has a show discussing internet culture with three comedians every weeknight(!). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hardwick
At this point, you may be asking. Wait — this started about Stephen Fry and Twitter...why are we now talking about nerds vs sports? I'd ask the same thing of the author. The section is poorly though-out and explains nothing about power dynamics; Was hatred of one another's interest the most appropriate horse to hitch the "serious discussion of Twitter mobs" wagon to?
OP of TFA says, "I love Stephen Fry, really I do".
I am someone who loathes Stephen Fry, with his pseudo-intellectual wittering, his incorrect presumption of understanding of technical matters, and his flippant arrogance. He has been described as "a stupid person's idea of a clever person", something I wouldn't disagree with.
Watching him stupidly misinform viewers of Qi about how GPS works is one thing. Reading him butcher the history of Dr Gary Kildall is another. I'd argue the latter could reasonably be said to be "offensive" to most of the HN crowd.
With that said, I don't think Fry's wrong on this.
Twitter (and Tumblr) have become a hive for the professionally and vicariously offended. From the de-verifying of Milo Yiannopoulos, to this case which resulted in Fry sulking off Twitter yet again, Twitter especially seems to have it institutionally ingrained.
The bag lady remark was not unreasonable, nor mean-spirited. Nor was it taken as such by the lady in question.
If you don't like Twitter, you can log the heck off. One is not forced to use Twitter, certainly not with one's own real-world identity. If you don't like it, you can say so, take a bow, and take your 120 characters elsewhere. As Fry has done.
Twitter and Facebook are not the bastions of Free Speech they might claim to be, but they do host proponents of both sides of most debates. If you say something unpopular or something divisive, rightly or wrongly, you risk taking flack.
But a boatload of people calling you a dick on Twitter is not the equivalent of people throwing bricks through your window. Some people just need to get a perspective.
Free speech is a double-edged sword. It is, however, required for freedom, liberty, democracy, real equality and progress. Part of that is accepting people are going to say stuff that you personally don't like.
A lot of people will disagree with my views on Fry. He is effectively a British institution at this point. And that's fine. They can happily complain bitterly about my characterization of him, although the number people would actually care about what I say is probably rather small. That's all fine. That's free speech. And I'm sure we all agree free speech is preferable to the alternative.
"Criticism of bad behavior is good and necessary, but it far too easily spirals into a howling typhoon of nonstop vitriol and hate that's difficult for the target to deal with, especially if they're not rich/powerful."
Still I'd recommend reading, it's not as long as it looks.
Tell 'em you don't like X, block 'em, and boom, you're done. No need to make 15btweets explaining just how much you hate [Scapegoat off the week here].
Until X start automating the creation of new account and spamming your specifically because you blocked them of course.
That's not even accounting for captchas.
Democracy is dead, once shared common culture is destroyed the polis turns into a rampaging destructive mob.
So the people pushing this, not the foot soldiers but the people at the top, whats their angle, their logical next step? My guess is authoritarianism, mass censorship, a return to some kind of monarchy. Or maybe they just like watching the world burn. Or they think 1984/BNW/AF are instruction manuals not dystopias. I suppose for the ruling classes, those books ARE utopias. We seem very comfortable with those folks being the only people with money; perhaps its time for us to give them all our civil rights too.
Divide and conqueror... people pay too much attention to the former and forget the purpose of all the drama is the latter.
a common method that works in politics as well. leaders don't need to ask for those who support them to cross the line because they know there will be those who will and they derive benefit from their actions all the while decrying them.
social media is just the back room games of mover and shakers out in the open. the same rules but just more visible
I'm not convinced Twitter is fixable as-is. The most obvious technical solution is to do what Reddit did and make sub-Twitters, but they're not going to do that. But as one big global broadcast platform, it too easily exceeds the ability of the human mind to deal with things when you get even modestly popular, to say nothing of being a celebrity trying to directly participate.
But in reality there's simply no way to be a member of a "community" of that size. Arguably that's one of the places where this essay sort of stalls out... there's no community here to be discussing in the first place. Just a really, really big pile of people, with affiliations too loose to even remotely be a community. If there is "power" here, it's not at all clear to me who has it, and it certainly seems on the evidence that Stephen Fry is actually on the short end of that stick rather than the long one. To the extent that the essay seems to vaguely try to suggest that he did the wrong thing, itself ironic in light of, well, itself, I don't think the case was made.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on reddit style voting with visible points and reordering. In my observation each of those things are detrimental, at least with respect to community building and maintenance.
I'm also not convinced it's terribly detrimental. Most of the accusations against vote systems are true of threaded forums in general. Group think develops, regardless. People can be hounded out of a community, regardless, for the same set of reasons. It seems to me the real key is the use of a threading system in the first place, rather than the votes attached to the threads.
It may be fair to say that threaded voting enables the largest communities I know about. At the scale they break down, I don't know anything that works. I've never seen a mechanism for having a tightly-knit single community of larger size without being what most of us would consider a community fail.
By contrast, threaded vs. flat is a vital change.
(Note also the other comment where I said I think he's right. I don't really talk about feelings being "valid" that much, but I don't think his critics' feelings are "valid" with regard to the Beavan joke).
No, what I mean is not closer to "your feelings are dumb" either. Telling someone to fuck off is communicating that their /presence/, or their /attitude/ is unwanted. It doesn't directly attack their feelings at all. It may be uncaring, and the recipient may still be hurt by it, but it's a far cry from denying people their right to feel.
Quite a few people apparently, and you only need one to do that and make it available to everyone else.
This is getting into Poe's Law territory.
There are no objective facts to be had regarding the state of Twitter. This is not physics or mathematics. The state of twitter is entirely subjective. How is Fry ever denying this?
"uses the vocabulary of someone describing immutable and unarguable facts".. What does that even mean? It's using the vocabulary of Stephen Fry talking about this thing that annoyed him and how distancing himself from it made him feel better. It is entirely about his feelings.
That this post tries to frame Fry's post as some kind of veiled offense and then smugly points out the inconsistency in that, is quite insulting in my eyes. Even if it were accurate about Fry's message, it would still be immensely rude to me to belittle another person like that.
So he wasn't offended, he just had his feelings hurt?
Yes, because I've seen first hand what people do to those on twitter that say something that can be misconstrued as punching down, racist, bigoted, etc. It's not pretty and not nice in any sense.
He is telling them to shut up in the sense that they're being offended means jack shit. The mentality of them being offended and people having to cater to them is why free speech on universities are pretty much non-existent.
I saw a core contributor on a project be attacked because he disagreed with italian schools teaching children about transgender subjects without permission from the parents. They literally attacked the project, going on about how the core contributor was "transphobic", that his code will translate into that too. It was literally shocking to see the comments going back and forth. And, that isnt the only instance I've seen in the last year or so.
We've seen people have their platform removed because others claimed that their mere presence would violate their "safe space", even though the person isnt violent and just has a different view.
He is offended, the only difference is he isnt using it to try and ruin people or change policies. He is venting his frustrations publicly because he can. He isnt looking for others to cater to him. This is contrast to the people he is complaining about who do everything they can to shame and silence people that have a difference of an opinion.
But returning to Fry: I think he's offended by his critics, even if he doesn't use that word.
But here's what will blow your mind: as far as I understand what happened, I think he's right to be that way. They attacked him for doing nothing wrong.
People are acting like there's some magical thing "offense" that's only felt by people they disagree with. But we all feel offense on a regular basis, whether we call it that or not. It's just on us to do our best to only feel it for things that are actually bad, and to react in a measured way. Our offense doesn't mean anything per se--you can be equally offended by a good thing as a bad thing--it's the content of the thing that shows whether your offense shows that the problem is inside you or the thing you're made about.
Don't create some kind of dumb rule "being offended is bad". That makes no more sense than saying "because I'm offended, your opinion is wrong."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/08/richard...
It's one of those comments that was so obviously stupid and pointless, its difficult to know where to start in responding to it.
Fry isnt exactly offended by his critics but to the outrage culture that believes that being offensive means that the person is a racist, homophobe, etc. That is why if you disagree with them on topics, while not being an actual bigot at all, they'll still call you a name that is defined by bigotry. That is why if you disagree with feminists (depending on which one), you're instantly labeled a men's rights activists without ever giving indication you are one.