Need a raise, how to ask?

17 points by djmill 10 years ago | 29 comments

This is probably a very simple question that a simple Google query can answer, but I'd like to get some opinions on the matter.

About me: - 3 year exp software engineer - 84k/year salary - Ruby on Rails, JS, CoffeeScript, MySQL, HTML/CSS (currently the UI guru..) - Oversee 2 folks on the US side (we also have offshore folks) and we all work under 1 App Architect - Company is based out of Boston - I live and work remotely outside of Boston.

The company has always been fast-paced. I work on everything for the front end. This means: 7 different Rails apps (internal & external), 5 different Rails engines, ~10 in-house built gems, and I also delegate work to 2 folks under me as a tech lead for a new project.

According to Payscale.com (including perks, etc): - Boston rankings: 38th percentile @ 84k/year - Where I live/work remotely: 75th percentile @ 84k/year

I continue to pick up more and more responsibilities, yet the 'cap' for raises is 10%. I'm at a point where I know I can find work that pays more, yet I do not have another offer. I'm currently interviewing with Google though, so maybe that gives me a leg-up?

Anyway, what merits do I have for a raise? Where I live/work vs. where the company is based, my ranking is drastically different. Yet, it'd still be cheaper for the company to give me a hefty raise rather than finding someone with my skill sets in Boston (RoR devs in Boston are super expensive and hard to find, so I feel like I've been taken advantage of).

How can I go about asking for a raise? My plan is to gather different estimates from different websites for both areas and then come up with a solid middle-ground for the pay that I'm looking for. Without another job offer on the table, it's hard to demand anything; however, I know that my company needs me more than I need them (not going into details here).

Just looking for some opinions and thanks in advance for any advice given here :)

arielweisberg 10 years ago |

Get an outside offer from some place you are willing to work at. Either they match it or they don't it's all one to you. Frame it as you having to do what's right for you and that you can't afford to leave that kind of money on the table. Working careers are short and you will never get that money back if pass on it.

It's the truth and it's something any half way decent manager can understand. It's not personal it's just a typical business decision for both parties. Expect that they may not match immediately. They will try to get you to wait a year or till the next cycle. The response is that you don't want to wait or leave money on the table due to the time value of money and the risk you are shouldering. Either they concede, sweeten the pot, or pass.

If you do end up with future promises get it in writing signed by your manager. Read it and make sure there are no games.

I wouldn't bother with estimates or middle grounds. Where the rubber meets the road is what kind offer you can get somewhere else. You are asking for a pittance from them and for the most part unless it's a failing business they shouldn't care.

dudul 10 years ago | |

Agree with the idea to get an offer first, and then try to negotiate. However, I would not put it as bluntly as "give me more money, or I go work there".

They may yield this time. Especially if you are an important member of the team with some exclusive knowledge (i.e. you're the only one who knows the codebase for component Foo, and if they lose you they are screwed). But, they will likely be bitter about it. Try to force you to share your knowledge in the next few months and kick you out.

Again, I agree that it makes perfect sense to you as an employee to maximize your income, it's just business. But a lot of business owners, especially in startups, may take it personally ("How dare he want to leave us? How about our mission of making the world a better place? He's only in it for the money ????!!!").

So, long story short, I would amend this advice with not disclosing that you have an other offer and not setting an ultimatum.

evm9 10 years ago | | |

I like this approach, it's the most careful one.

Though if you truly know that you are valuable to your company and they are going to pay you what you're worth when you make the ask, no need to even get another offer. If it's such a good market you should have no problem finding another gig.

I'm in SoCal doing Ruby, Rails, JavaScript stuff and I was underpaid for the first 1.5 years at a new gig. Since I was confident I could get another gig paying 20-40% more with ease, I didn't bother getting an offer first, when I made the decision, I just went in the next day and took care of business.

Told my manager I have an offer on the table for FIFTY PERCENT more than what I was currently earning (no such offer existed), they matched it (including other perks), and then I was paid 1.5x more. Been here for another year since then, no problems.

YMMV, make the best decision based on your situation. This risk may not be worth it, but it sounds like you're in good standing with your company and provide them good value.

djmill 10 years ago | | |

Okay, very interesting... I like the way you think. Luckily, I built various components and the entire CSS layer (which gets very complex) is really only understood by me... which is a nice monopoly from time to time. But yeah, if I leave I know I'll be forced to continue doing the same work but also forced to educate the entire team, etc. on my knowledge.

But you're right, I don't want to make anything personal, it's purely a business and career growth decision on my end. I love the company and what they stand for, but I don't like feeling like I'm being taken advantage of by being underpaid for my skill sets.

After working here for a while, I've noticed that the interviewees are lacking in skill sets and we can't seem to gain or retain top talent... which also leads me to think I have a leg-up on this as if I leave, they're screwed in certain areas.

arielweisberg 10 years ago | | |

I agree there is a risk but the rewards are massive over the course of a career. Unless you work for a select few companies with passable compensation practices you will lose millions of dollars once you take into account saving and investing the money you earn earlier in your career.

There is an element of knowing who you are talking to. You may even be the one to educate them on the economics of retention and BATNA and so on. I have found that even emotionally invested people can understand the economics of it and the need for their employees to do what is right for them.

It's a strange one that thinks that their mission is more important than someone's future. Probably someone you don't want to be working for anyways.

djmill 10 years ago | |

Okay great, that makes sense. Thanks for the advice!

alain94040 10 years ago |

> I know I can find work that pays more, yet I do not have another offer

Read the true story I wrote below [1]. You don't want to look like a mercenary ("give me a raise or I quit"). But you do want to be paid fairly. Get an "informal" offer. Then tell your boss that you really want to stay with them, but the "outside market" is telling you that you are underpaid.

That approach has worked for me in real life.

[1] https://medium.com/@alain94040/how-to-negotiate-a-raise-9166...

djmill 10 years ago | |

Great advice, this is really what I'd like to do... propose that I have an offer that I don't really want, but the money is better - hoping that they can match it, since the offer proves my worth

gumby 10 years ago | | |

Here's how I do things:

If an employee comes and says she or he has a better off I let them take it. If they're looking, they're looking, and I want people who want to work with us.

I am not at all unhappy if someone comes and asks for a raise. I believe everyone is paid fairly, but if there's a mistake, well I'm glad to find out and fix it. But I'm happy to explain why the pay people are getting is probably fair.

I use hiring info to keep abreast of salaries: if candidates seem to need more than I had planned to offer then I level the appropriate employees up as well. I.e. you don't have to try to get a new job just to get a raise. It means people are paid fairly (e.g. your company's cap on raises is stupid). Apparently publishing everybody's pay adds stress for some reason, but I try to set the pay as if they were published -- so if someone does find out they won't be surprised ("Woah, Jane gets 20% more than me? Crap, I guess she is the one we all go to when we are having trouble finding the right algorithm; I should pick up my game").

Note that there is nothing wrong with looking around at other company's hiring pages, linkedin etc; it's no different from keeping your other skills up to snuff (learning new technologies or whatever). I just don't like being presented with what's essentially an ultimatum -- it means the asker isn't really thinking about the issue.

chrisbennet 10 years ago |

The cap is crap of course. That is just their mechanism to avoid paying market.

One of the reasons that is hard to get raises is that employers find it hard to adjust their perception of your new worth once you "level up". You may be a brain surgeon now but to them, you're still the kid who used to mow their lawn.

It is quite possible that you might not be worth the same to them as you would to another company i.e. market.

You may not have a future there if you want to get paid what you are worth. :-(

JoshDoody 10 years ago |

I was interviewed for this article on the General Assembly blog, and it is a direct answer to your question:

How to (successfully) ask for a raise: https://generalassemb.ly/blog/how-to-successfully-ask-for-a-...

In your paragraph that starts with "How can I go about asking for a raise?", I think your plan is very good. Estimate your market value, adjust that market value for the specific value you add to your company (accounting for things like your statement that "...it'd still be cheaper for the company to give me a hefty raise rather than finding someone...") and make that your goal.

List the additional things you're doing to add value to the company since your current salary was set (you've basically already done this in your post here).

Find examples of praise that you've gotten from colleagues. Bundle that all up and there's your case for a raise. I recommend talking to your manager about it (requesting your raise in a 1-on-1), then following up with a written request via email so it can be circulated to the deciders.

That's about the best you can do as far as making a case for a raise. The real question is whether you'll go elsewhere if you determine that you're significantly under-paid and your company can't adjust your salary to reflect the value you add there. And of course that's something you'll have to determine on your own, but looking elsewhere (Google) is a good start.

Good luck!

sauronlord 10 years ago |

There is no such thing as "you need a raise"

There is only "Holy crap, we cannot afford to lose John, we better give him a raise NOW"

gmarx 10 years ago |

You don't need an outside offer to ask for a raise. The cap for raises is nonsense. It may present a psychological barrier to your manager but mostly it is a prop to point to; so your manager can say "not my fault- see there's a sign that says no raises above 10%". The trick is they can give you more than 10% if it involves a promotion. The other trick is that raises are difficult to ask for.

You have a cogent argument for a promotion and raise. Ask for it. Present your argument minus anything that could be viewed as a threat (like interviewing at Google).

zhte415 10 years ago |

Employee "What do I need to do in order to [be paid X/get Y promotion]?"

Boss "Are you sure you want to [be paid X/get Y promotion]?"

In a sane organisation, this conversation should be possible. As you're working remotely, the boss may be unaware of creep with more and more responsibility you're taking. They should be reminded. Most people I've met are incredibly bad at managing directs remotely.

djmill 10 years ago |

I think I've decided to take a different approach...

I want to know what I can do to be inline with the rest of the industry. I think it makes sense to propose this as a question to my boss(es) after highlighting my accomplishments, etc.

At least, if they respond: "You'll never make that much money" - then I know where I stand. And this way, they know that I'm currently sizing myself up to the rest of the averages out there.

djmill 10 years ago |

Also, just stating that if Google throws me an offer, I'm obviously going to take it... but I'm not banking on that.

This pay raise demand would be the latter if/else in the Google offer edge-case!

DrNuke 10 years ago |

You know already: without an offer, you are worth what you are currently paid. That said, raising informally the issue with your boss will let you know where you do stand.

FroshKiller 10 years ago |

Why do you need a raise?

djmill 10 years ago | |

I feel as though I need a raise because my responsibilities have changed drastically since my last raise. I'm now managing people and leading a project.

On top of that, my pay has always been less than that of other folks in the industry doing the same work. These other folks that I've talked to also don't have to deal with the pain points of working with offshore folks in a timezone with a difference of 12 hours. I'm on meetings at 6AM and my day ends at 5PM if I'm lucky. Yet, I know people who do less work, for companies with 100% in-house teams that work 9 - 5.

JSeymourATL 10 years ago | | |

> I need a raise because my responsibilities have changed drastically since my last raise.

This is entirely fair, as your contribution and value to the company has also increased.

At the very least, the company should be paying market rates for your services. As a benchmark, median RoR guys in Boston are getting $115k > http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=ruby+on+rails,+supervise+offsho...

How to Ask-

Understand that perceptions dominate all parts of negotiation. It's important to take the emotional temperature of your boss and deal with it. Is he happy with your performance?

On this subject, Stuart Diamond is masterful > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liCOqUQzpQs

arielweisberg 10 years ago | |

That's a silly question? Is the utility of money in question?

otoburb 10 years ago | | |

Utility of money is probably assumed - the question is meant to force the OP to find credible reasons for a raise that would reduce any potential objections when he articulates his request to the employer.