ITER fusion energy pushed back beyond 2050(bbc.co.uk) |
ITER fusion energy pushed back beyond 2050(bbc.co.uk) |
Modern Generation III/III+ reactor designs have actually made this "chunkiness" worse; there's no modern reactor design under 500 MWe that's certified in the US, Canada, Japan, South Korea, or the EU. Designs in that lower power range were built decades ago, and a few still run, but now it's big-or-nothing. AP1000 and EPR are 1117 and 1600 MWe, respectively, and all projects using them are behind schedule/over budget. And since these large projects are leading to such poor outcomes for involved companies, it will be difficult to get follow-on orders that will benefit from the hard earned lessons of their initial builds.
Even if all the technical problems are solved and fusion proves capable of producing net electricity, fusion power risks hitting this same too-big-to-build problem afflicting fission if it can't scale down. If the only approaches that work are enormous tokamaks with an entry level price of $10-billion-or-more, then they'll be engineering marvels that hardly anyone builds. Maybe they'll someday supply 10% of China's electricity.
China has Generation IV pebble bed reactors coming online this year that are smaller (210 MWe) [1]. They would be the world's first Gen IV reactors in production. Would be interesting to see how that goes.
[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095809916...
[0]: https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=97&t=3
901,000 watt-hours per month / (30 * 24) ~= 1,250 watts
Most countries have not formally committed to eliminating power from fossil fuels, either - though there's obviously more of a trend in that direction.
Point being that past lack of commitment is no indicator of future direction.
> Most countries have at least some regions that would be happy to accept the good, stable employment and tax base offered by a nuclear power plant in exchange for the very slight risk of accidents.
Given there's 195 countries - 'most' may be misapplied here. I think it's optimistic to believe that there'll be stable employment for more than a handful of people per nuclear fission power plant.
Tax legislation comes and goes. And as to slight risk .. I think that's misrepresenting things too. A risk matrix typically takes into account likelihood vs effect. You may be suggesting there's a 'small likelihood', while ignoring the massive potential effects of an incident -- equating to significant actual risk.
A review of the history and progress <sic> of the Hinkley nuclear fission power plant in the UK - a country that certainly meets the pro-nuclear-fission requirement - is sobering.
This article (from late 2015), and apologies for Telegraph link [1] is highly depressing.
The wikipedia page [2] has a few more recent details.
[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/nuclearpower/11...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_...
An interesting watch is Adam Curtis' documentary "A is for Atom", which covers the history of nuclear power.
It's usually pretty easy to find Adam's content on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3i9WHHl3qA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FDrA7yUdFc
Summary on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora%27s_Box_(TV_series)#Pa...
It might be debatable whether humanity is sufficiently responsible to maintain any dangerous machinery requiring generation-level planning, but it is important to keep in mind how far removed we are from the era in which every nuclear reactor ever having experienced a major nuclear incident was designed.
[1] http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es3051197?source=cen
Fusion hydrogen requires heavy isotopes, namely tritium, to generate sufficient reactions. This generates s lot of free neutrons however, enough that they will tend to destroy what container they're in. This is a significant, possibly commercially insurmountable, engineering problem.
Helium-3 is one alternative but is super rare on Earth ( even the heavier Helium-4 escapes the Earth's gravity once it reaches the atmosphere (so party balloons are consuming an irreplaceable resource thanks to an effective subsidy from Congress who narrowmindedly decided to offload the Strategic Helium Reserve at submarket rates).
People like to bandy about phrases like "free energy" when it comes to fusion. Well, free fuel and free energy aren't the same thing. A plant has a capex and running costs, a finite lifetime and a power output. Put those numbers together and you have a base energy cost even with free and essentially limitless fuel.
The article talks about producing tritium from lithium. Great. The demand for batteries is already going to stretch the worlds lithium supply so that's another advance we need.
Honestly I feel ITER is such a big boondoggle that its cannibalizing pretty much all other fragments of research in fusion. for reference even based on tokamak design MIT ARC is uses much higher T REBCO superconductor based magnets that ITER cannot even adopt. which do you think has a better chance of success? besides that there are multiple other efforts like German stellarator, FRC based design by trialpha and even the opensource focus fusion. IMO its much better to spread the resources into these efforts rather than dumping a bunch of money into monstrosity like ITER and going back into the lap of fossils for next 2 decades.
thinking about [lack of] fusion funding really pisses me off.
/end-rant
Most of the issues with current fission are political ("spent" fuel can be reprocessed) and economic (these beasts are insanely expensive to build and operate safely) and we haven't even touched MSR's and Thorium. I get fusion would be beautiful, but it has its problems too (heavy neutron bombardment will eventually turn the reactor into a pile of hot nuclear waste - or, at best, MSR fuel) and we may need to face the simple fact our technology isn't up to that challenge just yet.
Although stellarators may offer some shortcuts.
Maybe we'll need fusion for multi-generation starships supposed to operate for many centuries on a closed loop system, but that need seems a bit too far into the future for us to concern ourselves too much with it. Solar should be fine up to Mars and compact fission should be enough up to the Oort cloud.
If they took even 1/10th of the money and spread it around some of the more promising, smaller, non-tokamak, scrappier fusion projects like tri-alpha, polywell, or the Lockheed skunkworks one that actually have a plausible path to power generation I think that the money would make a better impact. Even next gen fission would be a better investment. India and China are doing very nice things with thorium these days... Too bad they'll never turn off the pork faucet until forced.
Those other approaches are far less proven than the ITER design (through its precursors like JET). I'm not saying that some of them won't outpace ITER eventually, but as far as things go that are actually being built ITER is still ahead of the pack.
(</sarcasm> I've been hearing how fusion reactors are "just around the corner" since I was a teenager, at least 40 years now.)
Although it looks like they're updating their model to be more accurate, as now it appears to be "Always 30 years away."
Joking aside, fusion research is infamously underfunded. At the current rate, it may never come to fruition.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/U.S._his...
Found the problem.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendelstein_7-X
EDIT: originally I wrote 195 countries, which is BS of course :)
The usual comparison here is that one laptop battery's worth of Lithium is enough to provide an individual's energy need for life. So at current consumption rates, there is enough Li available through traditional mining to supply the world with one thousand years of energy, and closer to one million years' worth if we recover it from seawater.
I prefer to think of this as "providing incentives necessary to exploit the resources of Jupiter and Saturn."
Maybe when the history of space settlement is written it will have a chapter on the contribution party balloons and political squandering of strategic reserve had on resource prices...
Can't imagine that this sort of process will use anywhere near as much lithium as the battery industry. It's fusion, after all.
Another aneutronic reaction is proton-boron. Boron isn't as abundant as deuterium but there's still enough on Earth to last tens of thousands of years. (The reaction use B11, which is 80% of natural boron.) pB11 fusion is especially difficult but several startups are trying it; the biggest is Tri Alpha, with about $500M invested. They attained stable plasma a year ago and just completed a larger reactor.
With D-T, the easiest reaction, there may be ways to engineer around the neutron issue. General Fusion does fusion pulses in the middle of a vat of molten lead and lithium. MIT's ARC design is more conservative, with a compact tokamak and modular construction. The inner wall is 3D-printed and replaced annually; they say after a couple decades the radioactivity will have decayed enough for cheap disposal. They surround the core with a blanket of molten FLiBe salt as coolant and breeding blanket.
Plus, won't nearly all neutrons be incident on lithium to breed tritium in a final reactor anyway? And you don't need very much lithium anyway so there shouldn't be a concern over lithium availability.
I also don't understand why you're complaining about the loss of super-rare helium isotopes, but think that we're going to run out of Lithium due to this process, which is orders of magnitude more common.
The bottom line is that even a rudimentary fusion power system can capture 10x whatever energy you put in place. This blows away any other form of power generation no matter what measure you go by. Which is why it's still getting research money even if the result may be decades away.
Well... If you run a fusion reactor for long enough, you can dismantle it and use the scrap as fuel for much easier to build fission ones. ;-)
I agree that fusion is severely underfunded, and that it is dangerous for us to put all our eggs in the Tokamak basket. And this article is pretty strange for its fixation on DEMO which at this point might as well be made of unicorn horns. But ITER was proposed and is supported by a huge number of scientists for a good reason: it's the best way for us to hit a goal that fusion science has been dreaming of for 50 years, that is key to understanding and designing real fusion reactors.
It's great to have a diverse approach in the R&D phase, but sooner or later you're going to have to build a viable machine to study it, and that's when you run into the problem of scale. Confining a plasma of hundreds of millions of Kelvin is no joke even with superconducting magnets, so to get any sort of useful confinement it will have to be at least as big as ITER. And since neither individual governments nor the private sector want to unilaterally fund something so big without a guaranteed ROI, if we want the progress then there's really no way around this stepping stone of a huge, expensive, politically-charged multinational project.
You can see the first few faint traces of it today with complaints about killing birds and such.
Food for 1,000 homes requires 7800 acres. [2,3]
That's ~240x as much for food as compared to energy. It's a rounding error in terms of "damage to Mother Nature" and could be easily compensated for by not wasting so much of our produced food.
This came to mind because filling an entire roof with solar panels would definitely meet all the power requirements of a house (except for probably electric vehicles), but I was relatively confident that it took a whole lot more area to farm food for that household.
My math could have a mistake somewhere, did this pretty quickly. Feel free to tear it apart. :)
[1] https://www.energymanagertoday.com/it-takes-2-8-acres-of-lan...
[2] http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.LND.AGRI.K2?locations... -> 4,082,000 sq km / 321 million = 3.1 acres per person.
[3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h... -> 2.5 people per household, x 3.1 acres per person = 7.8 acres per house = 7800 acres per thousand homes.
Quite a few technical challenges due to the sand, though.
https://www.inverse.com/article/34239-how-many-solar-panels-...
It's not if it would be nice to free up that land, but rather whether or not countries would be willing to spend the many trillions of dollars it would take, when they always have lots of other financial priorities.
That's a valid concern. Probably in 37 years, we'll all be riding in self-driving electric buggies that recharge in 10 minutes from stored solar power.
Lockheed-Martin[1] is working on a compact fusion design that some day might fit on a truck yet power a city. It might keep a C-130 plane aloft for a year, or keep an aircraft carrier at sea for multiple years. It might power a spacecraft to Mars, shortening the trip from six months to one month.
There is a need for a compact, concentrated, continuously generating power plant at least for these kinds of specialized applications. Whether it will still make financial sense by the time it's actually working is another question. Perhaps the main use case will be military, though the idea of an airship that can stay aloft for months or years is rather appealing -- given enough power, you could put a city in the sky.
1. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/compact-fusion.htm...
> ENERGY CREATED THROUGH FUSION IS 3-4 TIMES MORE POWERFUL THAN THE ENERGY RELEASED BY FISSION
I'm not entirely sure how to parse that...?
We can easily get to ten times. And we have no need for a hundred.
also there are other uses that can make really plentiful rocketfuel esp for exploration outside of the inner solar system.
At first I was going to make a counter-argument. But then I noticed the exclamation mark at the end, and decided to defy Poe's law.
Fission could power us for 100-200 years at current consumption rates - substantially less if consumption continues to grow. It's not time to panic yet, but we can't afford not to be doing fusion research.
I grew up with energy generated by a mix of hydro from 800km away and nuclear from 200km. An off-shore wind farm could be built anywhere between 100 and 250km from my city. In-shore wind, if distributed and connected, can provide a lot of reliable with little need for constant hydro or nuclear.
Also, hydro can be rather helpful in other aspects - it can be a store of drinking water, fisheries and agriculture. The environmental impact is, of course, huge, buy far more benign than the current fashion of fossils. Plus, if you are really clever, you can use it to host carbon-fixating algae you can bury to remove a lot of carbon from the atmosphere.
Mind you that fission's environmental impact is not restricted to those rare occasions when everything goes bad and the reactor melts down. Mining for fissiles is not exactly environment friendly.
And while local photovoltaic may have some nasty industrial processes involved, solar-thermal doesn't. It also provides a nice and smooth generation pattern that can cover for baseline generation.
That said, ITER is not a good approach. Way too expensive, not scalable. It is good as a research project, but we need scalable and cheaper solutions.
Or we can rethink our use of cars. I drive one about once per week. The rest of my transportation needs are neatly provided by electric light rail.
We can also tax fossil-burning cars and their fuels according to their environment impact (like "we'll be all dead in a century"). That alone would make electric cars a lot more attractive.
About that, for most of my adult life my cars ran on sugarcane ethanol, which has a pretty close to zero carbon footptint. Plus, if the refining ops were more efficient and didn't burn the refuge to power the operation, it'd have a substantial negative carbon footprint.
citation needed
No fusion reactor so far has achieved ignition, that is, producing more energy than we put in. Are you suggesting we just assume one would work without building one?
ITER isn't meant to be commercially viable, it's the step in between something like Wendelstein/JET and a commercializable plant. If all goes well the plan is to follow up with DEMO which will be a commercial design that can be replicated for actual power plants.
Science and engineering cost money, and investment in fusion has consistently been substantially below what scientists estimated as necessary. There's a whole bunch of materials science, control systems, and so on that needs to be done. (And while there's plenty that could probably have been done more efficiently if this wasn't a multinational project, the political reality is that no country is willing to fund such a project on its own, and everyone who contributes wants some of the contracts to go to back to their own constituents; it's not great, but politics is the art of the possible).
http://www.ipp.mpg.de/16931/einfuehrung
Their initial tests did not use deuterium, and that gave a lot of people the wrong impression.
(For net power at this temperature they would need tritium, which they aren't using. Tritium is expensive and hard to deal with, and most fusion projects don't bother with it.)
Strange thing to do.
The Wendelstein has so far been successful, and will likely perform fusion soon, but as yet it isn't a successful fusion reactor.
However helium leaks like almost nothing else. Only hydrogen is worse. It is so small that it is able to leak (slowly) through the crystal lattice structure of metals, ceramics, and other materials used to contain it. So recycling systems can't be made perfect.
And of course, even if recycling systems were perfect, a limited supply means no room for growth.
Hydrogen will leak through porous metals like palladium, but as you say, helium will leak through almost everything.
Impressive, but those grids aren't cheap, and their maintenance is only getting more expensive with modern safety standards and labour costs.
> Also, hydro can be rather helpful in other aspects - it can be a store of drinking water, fisheries and agriculture. The environmental impact is, of course, huge, buy far more benign than the current fashion of fossils.
Anything but coal is progress, sure. But hydro is still damaging enough that it's well worth replacing.
> Mind you that fission's environmental impact is not restricted to those rare occasions when everything goes bad and the reactor melts down. Mining for fissiles is not exactly environment friendly.
The fuel density of fissiles is so high that that's not really an issue though - the amount of fuel mining needed is tiny.
> And while local photovoltaic may have some nasty industrial processes involved, solar-thermal doesn't. It also provides a nice and smooth generation pattern that can cover for baseline generation.
Solar-thermal has potential, but it still has some time/storage issues (yes it doesn't go to zero immediately at dusk, but it's not entirely aligned with demand either, and e.g. seasons are a big issue further from the equator) and location issues.
Ultimately while conventional renewables will be part of the mix - maybe a big part - it's hard to imagine we won't have cases where we need reliable, consistent power in a specific arbitrary location, and nuclear is really the only viable clean power source that can offer that. Maybe storage tech will improve to the point where that's no longer the case, but we can't rely on that - at least, not the extent of closing off nuclear research. The cost of the likes of ITER is a drop in the bucket compared to the world's total energy expenditure.
http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/analysing-the-costs...
The main issue with tritium isn't the expense of getting it, but the problems you face in dealing with it. It's hydrogen with two extra neutrons; it's hard to keep it from leaking and it's radioactive.
For example, the 1117 MWe AP1000 design that's driven Westinghouse to bankruptcy derives from the AP600 design of only 600 MWe. After-the-fact criticism is too easy, but it seems to me that Westinghouse and its US partners would have suffered less if they were trying to build 4x 600 MWe reactors, and the projects fell behind schedule/over budget, than in their actual situation where they're behind schedule/over budget on 4x 1117 MWe reactors.
IMHO it is competitive renewables that is a death sentence for current reactor tech. Nuclear needs to go back to the drawing board and come up with more efficient and realistic designs.
BTW, how it's a tsunami a very rare case on a decades long horizon? There were warnings about the possibility of a big tsunami. It wasn't a black swan, it was a white one.
> A spokesman from the Tokyo Electric Power Corporation [TEPCO] told FRONTLINE that the company was aware of Minoura’s work and was in the process of considering plant modifications in case of a massive tsunami.
Fission fails deadly, and humans are really bad at managing these kinds of things (ie: I don't want to pay 200 mil to build a better tsunami barrier for a 1 in a million chance...)
Is your sentence a positive sentence (do you mean we've certainly shown they're problematic essentially never) or is your sentence negative (we've certainly shown they're problematic definitely sometimes - which is unacceptable)?
I tried to read your attitude but failed.
All numbers are from a sustainable agriculture course I took in college, with a few spot checks by Googling.
This, BTW, should drive home just how environmentally-damaging carnivorism is and how switching to a vegetarian diet is actually significantly more impactful than almost any household energy conservation you do. However, as a long-time meat eater, I don't care, and just accept that I'm a terrible person.
I justify my meat consumption because in Australia most of our beef cattle are grazed on land that's useless for anything else. But I do agree that we should reduce meat consumption. Even if just for health we're eating twice as much as we should, let alone the environment.
In the talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpqA8yG9T4 he talks about ITER being too slow. Certainly the smaller SPARC reactor looks like they want to get things up and running far before ITER is performing fusion experiments, and the possible timescale for ARC is before
While their timescale might be optimistic or wrong, it doesn't sound like they're planning to wait for ITER.
I'm not in the field though so things might not match up with this output or I'm missing something obvious.
I feel like if it were as easy as a 10x10 mile plot of solar panels to power the entire US, some enterprising disruptor would have done it already. Think of the revenue from powering the entire US...
You've also got to consider transmission and the infrastructure required, probably storage for time-shifting the energy as well, since it's solar.
At $250 per square meter, 10,000 square miles of panels would come to $6.4 trillion.
I think we should be heading in this direction anyway. But it's not so small, it's not so cheap, it will take time. No surprise; the system we need to replace is not small or cheap, and it took time, too.
Solar is expanding rapidly, and it will do so more rapidly as it gets cheaper. And wind is advancing rapidly too.
And remember, the article is about fusion electricity not starting up for another 30 years. By then, as my original comment said, it will be mostly or all renewables, and so there will be no way to persuade countries to spend trillions on fusion.
You wouldn't actually put all these panels in one place, because of transmission losses, putting all your eggs in one basket, etc...
The point being, that you can power the US with a reasonable, practical amount of panels.
[1] http://innovativesolarfarms.com/solar-farm-cost-per-acre/ gives $500k per acre
Musk's point was that even a 10,000 square miles isn't all that big compared to the rest of the United States.
Even in Germany or the US with their extremely high electricity consumption this amounts to 1 tonne of CO2 per capita annually - that's around the target footprint for sustainability.
For comparison coal has a footprint of ~880g/kWh and natural gas ~450g/kWh.
In short, solar panels are currently environmentally friendly.
If, apart from civilization de-evolution, we never lowered per-capita energy consumption in ~10k years, I have very little faith we can do it now.
How do you deal with doing groceries ? I have to do groceries for 5 people, have to actually cook for them about 14x a week, at, let's say, 150gr of food per person per meal, at 50% waste to allow for actual cooking, so let's say 150gr * 14 * (1/(1-50%))= 5 kilogram, plus stuff to drink. Humans drink about 1.5 liter per day. So all in all, I need the ability to carry some 25-40kg easily. How do I do that using light rail ?
Note: going twice, by itself, increases the cost of groceries due to economies of scale. Going 5 times increases it by a lot, ignoring the lost time. Also, let's not pretend 12x1.5 liter bottles are easy to carry on light rail, even if it's just that and nothing else.
Also light rail, at least in Sydney and London (ie. the metro), only connects places that are ridiculously expensive to rent, and to top that off, light rail is only a little cheaper than a car compared to using a car by myself. With 5 people, they are ridiculously more expensive than using a car. Compared to using a nice secondhand car and traveling 30 times a week (20 of which are simply dropping the kids off at school), the price difference is so high that we cannot discuss using light rail for this.
So how can you claim that this is a solution ? When you're 20 and alone, perhaps. When you have a family, the financial difference is off the scale.
Come to think of it, once I turn 60 or so, is this still your suggestion ? Because then it'll be physically impossible for me to do it at all without a car, just for 2 people.
Personally, I think public transport is effectively a failure. The only function it has is to allow rich middle classers to travel in for their job from the suburbs, taking the car for part of the way. Aside from that it's useful for going out and the like, but it cannot reasonably be a primary mode of transportation.
If it were up to me, I'd tear down public transport entirely and replace it with "uber rail cars". Replace all tracks with normal road, reserved for a government-run fast automated-cars-only network that get called on request using an app, with ride sharing. As soon as possible, make that a network for automated call cars that can actually drive to supermarkets, jobs, ... and use the extensive right of way that we have on rail to have essentially a better highway system. No more stations. No more horrible overcrowded-and-ill-ventilated-and-source-of-countless-infections trains (guess what industry I work in).
> sugarcane ethanol, which has a pretty close to zero carbon footptint.
It also has a 1.05 or so ROEI (or, more likely, <1, when you count full cycle) and is a gimmick. We can probably support a 1905 economy on it. We cannot support the current economy on it.
Doing groceries is one of the reasons I still have a car.
> Also, let's not pretend 12x1.5 liter bottles are easy to carry on light rail
Water is transported in pipes. This reduces my need to transport beverages substantially.
> I think public transport is effectively a failure
Most Europeans would disagree.
> It also has a 1.05 or so ROEI (or, more likely, <1, when you count full cycle)
Where did you get that number? Also keep in mind ethanol manufacturing from biomass can probably be very optimized. Sugarcane is just one case that yielded an enormous success in Brazil.
They even come with free lead. Also they're government-owned, almost guaranteeing that if these pipes cause health issues (as they have in numerous examples, like Flint, Michigan) you won't get any restitution.
> Most Europeans would disagree.
I have lived in Europe. No they won't. Well, if you put it in those exact terms they might.
But the question asked here: "can public transport replace a car for you ?" would get a very strong "no" from most Europeans.
Home delivery. It's far more efficient to have a single van going to a bunch of houses than to have a bunch of people take individual cars to the store and back. Supermarket delivery in the UK is already cheap and convenient, I don't see why it couldn't be similarly good elsewhere.
>Also light rail [...] only connects places that are ridiculously expensive to rent
I think that's largely a symptom of housing shortages in general. Decent public transport makes a property effectively equivalent to one closer to job centres, so it becomes more expensive. Build enough housing and that becomes less of a problem.
>If it were up to me, I'd tear down public transport entirely and replace it with "uber rail cars".
I definitely see the potential of self-driving taxis for public transport, but I don't see why you want to completely replace existing efficient infrastructure. Rather I think their role in future will be to provide last-mile connectivity for efficient public transport links. That way you still get the door-to-door transport, but with a more efficient backbone network.
So sorry, but this option and home delivery too come at a significantly higher cost to me (about 2x for this one, about 1.3x for home delivery).
In both cases, I think having a car is cheaper. Definitely cheaper than going to local stores.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatons_to_Megawatts_Program
That's what governments are for.
Solar panels, throughout their life cycle, produce much more energy than it is required to produce and recycle them in an environmentally friendly way.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polysilicon_prices_h...
(the price drop is mostly a result of pretty big increases in production)
http://redgreenandblue.org/2017/07/18/myth-baseload-power-no...
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/12/02/3081889.ht...
The only commercially viable electricity storage available today is pumped hydro. Flywheels and molten salts are also working technical solutions and could be used for wind and solar thermal.