Why I left Japan after 10 years(blog.uchujin.co.uk) |
Why I left Japan after 10 years(blog.uchujin.co.uk) |
The officer expects nearly instant, ingratiating compliance. If you perform instant, ingratiating compliance, you will likely exit the conversation quickly and with your safety intact. If you consider your dignity more important than your safety, that is your call, but know that you are making a high-variance decision.
The intermediate steps of escalating a routine police encounter into a non-routine police encounter, for example with the eventual goal of being vindicated by the legal system, may involve legally or socially significant events such as an arrest. You very urgently do not want to be arrested. It will have outsized social impacts on e.g. your employment and housing situations and will be looked on with extreme displeasure by Immigration.
(If this sounds dumbfounding to folks with less context: bicycle theft is near the top of police priorities and they have the impression that foreigners are the primary cause of it. "Suspicion of stealing my own bicycle" has historically been the most common thing which attracted me adversarial attention.)
See bad thing - link to Japanese people as a whole or in general, rather than the individual.
It's an easy mistake to make. Especially if you do ever hear it in the inverse direction. "Foreigners do X or Y", etc.
If he aimed to replace generic instances of 'Japanese people' or 'in Japan' with specific reference to the instance or person, I think he'd have had a better time in life.
And yes, it's difficult to encounter any amount of racism and not feel that the group of people that the racist person came from, do not in fact as a whole demonstrate racist behaviours in general. Obviously not at a higher cognitive level, but at an emotional reacting to a certain way of having been dealt with or treat.
But it's absolutely necessary to stop the generalisation, even if only for one's personal mental health. It serves no purpose other than wiring our animal brains up more strongly, to think of us vs them.
And try and notice it more often in Western media too. Any time there is a mention of someone's race, see whether it would look out of place with Black or Latino or Asian replaced with white.
It's often a completely irrelevant piece of information.
As the use of the word Japanese is often irrelevant in this post.
Yep lot's of terrible people in lots of places in the world, and the fact that they were Japanese in this instance is more related to the fact that they were born and brought up in Japan than some inherent generic flaws with an entire country of people.
And yes Japan has problems that aren't in other parts of the world, and vice versa. It still doesn't befit using `X people do Y` type generalisations.
You think the word "Japanese" is irrelevant in a post describing Japanese culture?
Cultures have traits. Some of those traits can be good. Others can be bad. It doesn't mean all of those people exhibit those traits. We shouldn't judge individuals based on those prejudices, but it's equally mistaken to fault people from talking about cultures generally.
Half of his post is about the Japanese penal system, which is known to be extremely unfair and broken. This isn't an over generalization. It's a reality, and one that should be discussed soberly.
It's probably not a great analogy but, I think that if you were in e.g. the USA and there was use of White American Judicial System, or White American Police Force or something along those lines it would really scream out at you.
I realise he is out of Japan now and the blog post is not necessarily targeting people in Japan, but a lot of foreigners in Japan will prefix Japanese things, people, institutions etc with the adjective Japanese, particularly when talking about negative experiences or encounters.
When really the adjective should be redundant in those environments.
And yes I agree that the Japanese penal system is terrible. But the problem is more the continual strong association and reinforcement with everything and everyone Japanese.
He could have explained why he chose to leave Japan and then stop the continual references. I'm positing that the continual references, throughout the article, to Japan and Japanese people etc are both overkill and could reflect inherent biases. I'm not saying they definitely do, but I think he'd have an easier time if he stopped associating the negative things in general with Japan and Japanese people and attributed them more to the specific situations, institutions and people.
Within context: "The police are awful" is better for your mental health than "The Japanese police are awful".
In the first paragraph the author says it is impossible to critique Japan traits. That simply shows that he or she has understood nothing of the Asian way of life. I've been working in a Chinese company since 6 years and never heard any critique or irony or any other form of explicit negative comment, even about competitor products. That is just not how you do it there. There are many other ways to express your personal preferences. If in ten years you don't get this, you just better go back home earlier.
Those two are the same, if you are born and brought up in Japan then you are Japanese. Similarly if you are born and brought up in America then you are an American even if you happen to look like most people do in Japan. Do you disagree with this? Can immigrants from Japan never become true Americans? Or have you accepted Japanese racism to such a degree that you think it is impossible for a white person to become Japanese?
Also, the fact that you see someone who lived in Japan for 10 years as anything other than Japanese is a sign that this is a larger problem and not just something in his mind. Would you call someone who have been integrated in American culture for 10 years anything other than American?
The simplified version of there being eight permutations of being racially/nationally/culturally Japanese are lost on a lot of people. Here I was referring to the shorthand version where all those things are unquestionable ticked boxes.
In general aren't people only referred to as American in America when they have the nationality box ticked?
Yes, I definitely think so too. And the article about cycling in tokyo he links to [1] hints at this more. I've cycled very extensively in tokyo over the years i lived there and the experience he describes sounds, ironically, totally foreign to me. Tokyo's a wonderful and extremely safe place to cycle, which is of course why millions of people do so. To see such an inexplicably and exaggeratedly negative rant about something I rarely had anything but positive experiences with makes me think there's more than a few personal issues colouring the author's viewpoint.
> "the vast majority of cyclists in Tokyo are criminally irresponsible"
I mean that is just a ludicrous assertion which basically makes me ignore whatever else the author has to say. No wonder he gets dismissed in arguments if that's the sort of thing he comes out with.
There are plenty of examples in the article which are equally foreign to me (repeated intimidation during gaijin card checks? Huh? I had one, ever, and they were unfailingly polite). Japan isn't perfect, not even close, but it's not this bad.
[1] http://blog.uchujin.co.uk/2012/07/cycling-in-tokyo-irrespons...
It's their blog, so they're welcome to bitch and moan as much as they want. But this strikes me as one of those people who are frequently told to lighten up.
There's real issues with things like the legal system and independence of press, but I think this post wildly exaggerates what it's like to live in Japan as a foreigner. I'm not sure how to explain OP's experience. Maybe he comes off too confrontational? He does call the police "fascists" in another blog post...
> My reply was always a simple one, “The Yakuza and Kabukicho aren’t scary, if you don’t mess with them they don’t mess with you. The Police? Now that’s a different story. Hands down scariest thing in Japan is the Police & the Justice system”.
So he responded to a low-key compliment by insulting the interlocutor's country? If this is representative of how he interacted with people there, I'm not surprised that he was unpopular.
Criticising the police is an exercise in civic bonding in the Anglo-American sphere these days, but I don't think it's much of a thing in Japan (and they tend to be very proud of their public safety climate). Was the author simply unaware of this, did he think that only his own culture's priorities regarding what it is okay to criticise matter, or did he not realise that people tend to identify strongly with at least some aspects of their countries at all? (Certainly, the UK has its own set of holy cows: back when I lived there, I learned of one the hard way after suggesting during a casual conversation that the political system of the UK would have turned out better if it had gone through at least one violent revolution in the past two-or-so centuries as all the other European countries did.)
I lived in Switzerland for a good few years, but although there are plenty of friendly people, the few people who weren't so friendly soured things. I suspect a different roll of the dice would have made it a much nicer experience.
You could tell you were getting the "foreigner rate" on quotes to fix things around your house. How do you know? You get a person who speaks the local language to ask for a quote.
People didn't trust me either. I got sued because a guy who I'd contracted to do some work wanted to get paid. He hadn't done the work, another guy had. But that didn't stop him from suing me. When I got to the pre-court hearing I found out the arbitrator was a friend of his.
You also get it thrown in your face that "this is how it is around here". With the understanding that of course you are only there for the tax rate and the skiing. This was particularly scary as a colleague of mine had his kids bullied in school, and was somehow expected to climb out of that hole himself.
But I doubt this sort of thing is particular to any country. People will always deal with the unfamiliar with some caution. You're always going to have language and cultural disadvantages.
http://shanghaiist.com/2016/12/30/shanghaiist_2016_embarrass...
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/bad-manners-ch...
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...
In my opinion, Western Europe, US and Canada are quite open, and let people, if not integrate, at least mind their own business.
Immigrants are usually also to blame, since often integration is not a priority. I've lived in several places around Europe, and usually foreigners stick together: it is easier to become friends with a German in France than it is in Germany, maybe because immigrants have similar mindsets, and experience similar problems.
What worries me is that it seems these relatively open societies are rapidly closing: nationalism is on the rise everywhere.
Most people love Japan at first, and then, particularly if they're middle-aged and white, the frustration of being in your late thirties and living in a tiny house, not being able to progress in your career, and not having a social life begins to kick in.
At that point, little things which shouldn't bother you - like the word gaijin which although unpleasant to Western ears is purely a descriptive term and the ignorance about the rest of the world begin to bother you. You also come to understand enough Japanese to understand what people are really saying beneath the surface.
For what its worth, I found Japan incredibly safe, welcoming and unfailingly polite. I went to get my hair cut and by the end of it once the hairdresser had taken my number and offered to take me to Tsukiji fish auction!
I think it is possible to go through an extended period in Japan without being consumed by bitterness like the OP, though it is a pattern I see quite often.
I've lived in Japan for over a year and have experienced these people sometimes. Generally it comes down to them being an overall bitter person in general.
There's also that same attitude about being superior than others - most western countries are particularly crude because they don't even have a royal family. Yet they are extremely sensitive about being looked down upon and pretend that the many vulgar behaviors that are so common don't even exist in the country.
Off topic, I know, but some of the parallels are interesting.
It seems like a reasonable enough position, but I wonder if there a way to express this desire in a way that couldn't easily be criticized as being "xenopohbic"?
Is there something inherently wrong with this attitude? (I personally wouldn't want to be a foreigner living there is what he describes is true, but no one is forcing me to move to Japan).
To use the example of Brexit - I sometimes feel like the 'Remain' side, in accusing 'Leave' of xenophobia & racism, painted themselves into a corner where any discussion of reducing migration was taboo.
I voted 'Remain' and am generally fine with current levels of immigration, but would I continue to be ok if these levels doubled, tripled, quadrupled? To be honest, I'm not sure.
In that sense, perhaps I'm not really much different from a 'Leave' voter, we just have different levels of sensitivity to opening our culture to foreigners.
(Or course, the referendum was about much more than immigration, but there's no doubting that it was a huge factor for many people.)
I wouldn't even consider moving to another country unless I was prepared to integrate and abide by cultural norms.
>I honestly think it is kept deliberately low
Is this guy serious?
This stands out to me. Raising your spoken Japanese from "reasonable" to "excellent" (especially with regards to accent) makes a huge difference in how people interact with you. Likewise a high level of literacy is required as well to navigate daily life without stress. (Of course if you live in an English bubble then YMMV.)
Anecdotally, I rarely see these Japan ragequits among people with high-level language skills.
Japan may have it's problems but this is ridiculous.
My only question is why did it take him 10 years to "get fed up" with it? Most people who leave do so after a year or so. Most people who stay longer than a couple years tend to stay for a very long time.
> That’s not to say that some nasty malice isn’t present because it most definitely is. I lost count of the times when, say, for example, politely pointing out to someone that there was a queue and they shouldn’t push in that the immediate response was a very angry “BAKA GAIJIN” (stupid foreigner).
Really, that happened often enough that he "lost count"? In 7 years, I haven't seen anything close to this.
At first, you think you're a bit on the outside because you don't know very much and don't speak the language, and you tend to attribute things to your own ignorance.
As you learn more, more and more of the country opens up to you. You make some local friends, you can survive in a small town where no-one speaks English for a few days, and you can have some experiences not available to tourists.
As you learn even more, you notice little slights you didn't notice before -- he gives the example of honorifics. You understand the nuances of comments people make to you. You realize that you'll never be accepted or taken seriously for who you are, you'll always just be an outside.
I come from Sweden, a relatively safe country. However, compared to Japan it is not. I felt incredible safe in Japan. Everyone is super friendly but hard to talk to since they don't generally won't speak english.
I wanted to meet some japanese people and make some friends while I was there but it was harder than I thought it would be. This is probably the only critisism I have except that they should install a lot more garbage bins and learn that a sidewalk is not a good place to bike on. Why not make better sidewalks and a bike lane?
I have been in Japan for a while, and the fact that you will never be accepted is totally OK for me. I appreciate feeling like an outsider, and as long as people are polite to me and my friends/family, I have no objections to people not calling me uniclaude san.
You see, when you're not a white male, it sometimes feel like you're an outsider even in your home country (provided the said country is mostly white), so for the first time, in Japan, I'm not the colored dude, I'm an outsider, a foreigner, and that's it. To be honest this is not a "Japan-only" thing, the same point could be made for some other countries like China.
Then, because this is HN, let's bring a second point:
The glass ceiling faced by foreigners in Japanese companies is a dream for us startup founders. It's rare for a potential prospect to have more room for growth in a Japanese company than in your startup if that person is a foreigner. It's sad, but it helps a lot when hiring top talent. Let's also note that the visa situation for engineers is very easy compared to many other first world countries like the USA.
That said, in my 4 years there, the police was never anything but polite and friendly (I was never once stopped for a bag search or gaijin card check either) and now living in London, I find the police here, while polite and professional, much more intimidating with their open carry of massive guns. (This is not to excuse the very real problems with judicial fairness that have been well documented elsewhere).
I think everybody's experience is different, but most foreigners I know who's stayed there long term does seem to develop a sort of exhaustion with the place.
> with their open carry of massive guns
(I was also younger than him when I lived there, which might also have made a difference.)
Thought it might be interesting to point out.
Still, wondering why the Chinese is purposefully so narrow and doesn't read '谢绝外国人‘ (no foreigners) instead of '谢绝中国人' (no Chinese people).
His "Cycling in Tokyo" post is just absurdly pessimistic and dark, for example. His username is littleblackheart.
When you project negativity people tend to project it back at you.
Most of his criticism is probably valid in some way, but if I were him I wouldn't make them as important to my experience of the country as he seems to have done.
Japanese society has some social quircks which are kind of unsettling for me as a foreigner, but those have not spoiled my stay here.
It's not hard to understand where it comes from, however - Japan is something of a cultural isolate, and resisted European and others' overtures well into the 19th century - at which point they underwent explosive industrialisation and social upheaval.
Then there was the whole mess of their wars of expansion in early 20c., culminating in WWII. Following that, American occupation and control, which ended many decades ago.
What I'm getting at is that there's been a huge amount of technical and societal change in Japan over the last 150 years - but not as much social change. You can change how people make their meals, spend their days, travel to work, but you can't shake notions like bushido or sakoku overnight.
"Out of 67 countries, Switzerland ranks 64th for friendliness and making newcomers feel welcome"
http://lenews.ch/2016/09/02/expats-in-switzerland-arent-feel...
They claim that Chile is #57 from 60 in friendliness. Haha, ok.
It's a bit distorted - it is a country with by far the highest immigration population in whole europe, if not whole world.
If they simply didn't want foreigners in their country, they can tweak working/residence permit situation so that most wouldn't qualify. They do and welcome them/us, BUT - you have to adapt and learn the language(s). Many, especially english-speaking expats, do have serious issues with this.
If you just roll in arrogantly and expect that your english will be enough and people will be coming to you in crowds to be your friends, then it it might not (or it might, depends). Simply because most of the country is full of similar people. Don't expect magic in some remote tiny valley, like anywhere.
That said, I am one living in french part who doesn't speak French properly, and I am just fine. It will help me a lot to learn it properly, my biggest TODO for near future. If I would be almost anywhere in France for example, I would be properly screwed without +-good level of french.
However, I can comment on the "Japanese only" signs. I've never actually seen one myself, but I know they exist in some places. An acquaintance of mine is well connected with a particular sumo heya (a "heya" is essentially a group of sumo wrestlers who live and train together along with their trainers and staff). It is popular (and fun) to go and watch the wrestlers train in their heya, but one is sometimes confronted with the "Japanese Only" sign at the entrance.
My acquaintance is not Japanese (he isn't even a resident), but like I said, he is well acquainted with the heya. One time, he asked some visiting foreigners if they wanted to watch the training and they were delighted to accept. When they got to the entrance they saw the sign. "Is it really OK?", they asked.
"It's fine. I've made arrangements. As far as the heya is concerned, if you know how to make arrangements to visit the heya, then you are Japanese".
Living in Japan can be very difficult for people who are not culturally Japanese. There is a weird inside/outside culture where either your are inside with a bunch of strange rules that you have to follow (and know to follow, somehow) or you are outside (where you don't really need to know or follow any rules). What "Japanese Only" means is that they only want people who know what the rules are, know how to follow the rules, and most importantly, are willing to follow the rules to the letter even if they think the rules are stupid. If you can do that, then you are "Japanese enough".
Generally speaking, there are few cultures in the world with the same kind of byzantine rule following culture that Japan has. Many cultures are literally morally opposed to blindly following rules. People from those cultures often have great difficulty in certain circumstances in Japan. However, if you show that you are willing and able to surmount those hurdles, my experience has been that most people have no trouble accepting you as Japanese.
* Don't wash your feet in the sink (Chinese and Arabic only)
* Don't squat on the toilet seat (Thai and Chinese only)
* Please wash your hands (English and Arabic only)
I was aware of 'trench' style toilets existing, so the directions for south-east Asian languages make some sense.
I wasn't aware of the 'foot washing' practice though... that seems odd.
The English one is for other foreigners and the kanji one for Chinese because most of them can't read/speak English so "Japanese only" sign wouldn't mean anything to them.
I think 絶 is the Japanese equivalent.
If the culture is good, no. If the culture is bad, yes.
In my former job I had regular meetings with japanese engineers, as my ex-company had contracted a big project to a big japanese company. I was fresh out of university (in germany), and expected that conversation in english for engineering projects was just standard thing and no big problems should arise. However in those meetings I unfortunately realized, that that's still not the case internationally. We had lots of meetings where the persons on the other end of the phone call could only read out their prepared slides and further discussion was not possible since our questions were not understood. Situations where we had to wait for 20 minutes for simple questions to be answered were also common. And often it was still not obvious after the answer if the other side really understood the question. So the best strategy was to create a written summary with very simply and direct language use afterwards and ask for confirmation again.
That said things got better during the years, and least in my last regular meetings there were some (presumably younger) engineers and project managers on the other side with a solid level of english.
I imagine lots of (young) Japanese people would look for better working conditions abroad, if they only had better English skills.
If you were the Japanese government, what method would you use to keep your professionals?
They are a country that isn't embracing mass immigration, with an ageing population and slowing economy..
AS they don't put intent where the fault is rather at how piss poor people are at doing things. Maybe there is some small part of intent (I live in Japan though and there's a never ending feed of companies that want to teach you proper english everywhere) but I rather suspect that the Japanese education system is just very poor at teaching language in general (and not just English), and that's certainly not limited to Japan.
Based on my own fairly limited experience in Japan, English as learned in school doesn't seem to translate (a ha ha) into effective English conversation. It seems that an academic rigor is taught (no bad thing, of course) but practical conversation skills are neglected.
It is understandable if you are a professional dealing with foreign companies, or if you are involved in the tourism business; that leaves out the vast majority of the population, which is not willing to invest hundreds of hours learning a skill that does not provide any significant benefit in their daily lives.
You are absolutely correct that the English taught is school is nearly useless, considering that in those 6 years my guess that English is taught some 2-3 hours per week.
I would be curious to know how many people in US or UK consider themselves fluent in a foreign language for a class they took for a few years in middle/high school.
It's a combination of the program being incompetent and students feeling no tangible benefit from studying.
As far as Japan goes, I've never been there, but I interacted/worked with many and I have to say the only thing that I still find quite disturbing is the 'Yes' problem. I remember extensive engineering meeting where everyone 'Agreed' and a week later, you realized actually they didn't really mean 'yes' when they agreed. Fun.
1. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/mercury-reader/okn...
Some interesting points, though.
The diversity of apparently sincerely expressed experience on this and most other matters in TFA, makes me wonder whether one's attitude isn't a major contributor to one's treatment.
I have met a lot of other western foreigners who have lived in Japan for a very long time. One of my coworkers is an eastern European guy who has lived in Japan since 1994. He absolutely adores everything about the country and its people. When I compare his perspective to that of this author's, an important point becomes clear in my mind: Being a happy immigrant requires a very deep level of assimilation.
It isn't about learning the language or copying the mannerisms. It is also about adopting the value system. Many of the author's complaints demonstrate a preference for a western European cultural value system. For example, he complains about the lack of hate speech laws, the more authoritarian police, the lack of tolerance of diversity, the lack of gender equality, and so on.
He uses phrases like "more enlightened 21st century countries," and makes a lot of sweeping statements about the Japanese people. It's almost as if he's annoyed that Japanese people are Japanese and not British. Cultures aren't costumes. It's not just different foods and clothing. It's fundamentally different ways of understanding the world. In racially homogeneous societies, it's also about an implicit in-group out-group orientation. You'll feel that everywhere from Japan to Nigeria.
I am an immigrant in Japan. I have made peace with the fact that I am always going to be an outsider. I have made peace with those aspects of their culture I find unpleasant. On balance I think the lifestyle and culture is superior to most other places, so I am content.
So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP.
A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it.
I'm not here to dismiss the author's claims, but most of the weeaboo to Japan hater crowd I've found is people who lived very cushy lives with close family bonds, and when they put that aside in a somewhat "cold" culture, they take offense to everything. As a cold, unsocial person myself, Japan is incredibly welcoming in that I feel like I can finally be left alone without being isolated. I hated having people randomly start conversations with me in America. I disliked the "not my job" attitude of Americans. I very strongly disliked how confrontational and easily angered Americans were (especially how people complained about restaurant services and the minorest of things, while here, it's practically unseen).
And then there's the people complaining about being a "foreigner forever." Honestly, how many asians in America get asked,"so, where are you from?" whenever they meet someone? I've seen it countless times. It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now.
And then he leads into "I can't believe they don't restrict speech and porn the way we do in my culture." In all honesty, fuck off. This is no better than someone being disgusted by western media showing bare female hair. The standards are subjective.
If you balk at minor incidents of xenophobia and in so doing generally act as if you don't belong, it will only make it worse.
If you can take it in stride and keep a stiff upper lip people will assume you've already gone through enough "hazing" and leave you alone/be more welcoming.
Even if you're trying to be polite, being overly apologetic is almost always bad, unless the situation is incredibly dire. It makes people think you are trying to get away with something by being there.
The comments on HN are mostly disturbed by the self-righteous tone of the article. This phrase is probably around the centre of that tone [highlight mine]:
> a poor excuse for attitudes that would be met with derision in more [enlightened 21st-century countries]
Also the author finds problems in Japan that they seem to ignore in many other places:
> It was somewhere I lived for 10 years, it was never my home, could never have been my home. Regardless of how good my Japanese language skills became or how much I had tried to become like them, I would never have been fully accepted, never been allowed in the club.
Basically it sounds almost like the author is saying that they just like to live where they are part of the native majority. Because, I think you will experience this everywhere. I've seen and experienced exactly the same in the following countries (In order of level disgustingness at which the 'not-part-of-our-society' is shovelled out): Israel, US, Germany.
But still there is a lot in the article worth reading if one can get through the tone. Specifically the legal architecture.
The Chinese style censorship has nothing to do with understanding of English.
“At every place I ever worked, however, I was always referred to by my first name “Adrian” or at best “Adrian San” even by much younger staff members.”
“I was stopped many times just walking down a street minding my own business, often surrounded by 3 or more officers who stood within a few feet of me and did their best to be as intimidating as possible. “
“Bag searches are common practice “
“a police force that was ordered by 3 time former Tokyo Governor Mr. Ishihara to “regard all foreigners as suspicious”? “
“It is not that uncommon, even in Tokyo, to see shops, bars or other establishments with “No foreigners””
“Don’t, for example even get me started on cycling in Tokyo.”
“The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school. I honestly think it is kept deliberately low”
On the contrary, METI (i.e. the Japanese government) have actually rolled out a new program since 2014 to reform the English education system in Japan to address the poor level of English. Not to mention that Tokyo will host the Olympics in 2020 and the lack of English will be a national embarrassment if they don’t get their act together. To suggest that English is “kept deliberately low” indicates that the author is delusional at best.
Some of the points made by the author are valid, particularly regarding gender equality and sexual exploitation. Japan has serious issues there that renders it very outdated and alienated from modern societies.
However during my time living there (and still today as I do business in Japan regularly), I made lasting friendships and formed incredibly close and rich relationships with many Japanese people. I’ve attended their weddings and dined at home with them and their children. I find Japanese people (for the most part) to be extremely kind, helpful and considerate. Of course there are some unpleasant and offensive people, but that is no different to any other country in the world. Therefore I needed to challenge this misinformation, out of respect for the many Japanese people who have been so good to me over the years.
I’m surprised that the author lived there for so long, and still came away with such a distorted and narrow point of view. Overall, this article portrays years of pent-up frustration and homesickness by the author. I hope that a break in London will help to see things in a different light.
Some of my favorites places in the world have problems that really really annoy me. But the positives outweigh the negatives for me, and everyone needs to decide what is important to them personally.
To stereotype an entire culture or people like this and focus only on those things which annoyed the writer is a futile effort to make the world something that it isn't: perfect.
As a (European) foreigner living in Australia, I hear the same sentence when trying to discuss a problem...
This isn't exclusive to Japan. I've found English and American people with the same shitty inability to take criticism.
For me, it was (among other things) hearing colleagues joke about murdering bicyclists, while I stood there with helmet in hand, having nearly been killed every morning.
This is how you breed deep, lasting resentment. We don't want to become like you but we do want to respect your way of life when we're visiting. If that's not good enough, you should reconsider your connection to the rest of the world. It seems the wests' "When in Rome, do as the romans" attitude is not appreciated or shared elsewhere. Yes we have obnoxious, loud outliers, but good god I have been on the cleaning end of japanese visitors and their general, passive contempt towards their hosts and way of life. (Cue devasted restrooms flashback)
If you want a baka gaijin's 2 cents, which I doubt: Don't dig yourself into irrelevance again with the insular mindset. You're a country of many marvels but as a people, I'm hard pressed to find anyone who actually knows what he's talking about that likes you.
[EDIT: copy of parents oriunal message] The author is a cheat - the sign says "No chinese allowed". Because Chinese are the largest tourist group. And everyone knows they are rowdy as shit. But the author, who takes a lot of care to explain all Japanese symbols, doesn't explain that. Tries to lump everthing into one. I'm glad people like him weren't allowed in our country.
>Tries to lump everything into one
Yeah, you're doing the same thing.
What country do you come from that denies entry to people based on how they translate Japanese signs? You're full of shit. Not surprised you hide behind a throwaway.
Maybe you are the throwaway of author's?
And, as you can see, there's no possible debate in the west: you have to have bicyclists, otherwise you're a backwards asshole. And I have to live with that, because that's society: you have to deal with people who don't think the way you do.
(You just have to look at the downvotes to see what I'm talking about ;P)
If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and promise that this will never happen again.
I asked you what country you come from that excludes people based on, as you stated, how they interpret Japanese signs. No such country, as we all know. You're talking nonsense, and now that you've been called out on it, you're pretending this is about something else. Look at you now, deleting your comments even though you're using a throwaway! The whole point of the throwaway is that nobody can tie it to the person you usually pretend to be, but you're running away anyway.
Nobody benefits from this; not you, not me, nobody here. God's sake, owning your beliefs is a necessary step to improving them. Not just in this situation; always. Here, look, I'll start; I was unnecessarily harsh in my opening response and could have handled that better. This is an opportunity for both of us to improve. I didn't consider that you might be Japanese and that you might feel defensive; it can be hard to critique your own nation/culture with foreigners (although being from the UK, it's easy for me; sometimes it would be nice to spend a day without having some new clusterf from the embarrassing shambles of a UK government and broader population at large) and perhaps I could have helped you come out of your defensive shell.
(it applies to pretty much any country though .. which norm (in the mathematical sense) are you using exactly ? I don't think there is one and only one.
I feel like the people that come here and end up hating it are exactly as you say, people with an absurd amount of weird cultural entitlement. It's like they don't understand that they are living in a completely different country from their own with completely different standards and norms. I have luckily not met such bitter folk, although I've tended to just stick to living a standard life here and not going out of my way to join any foreigner circles, which are apparently where these oddball haters tend to cluster.
I remember when Google+ first came out and I flipped to the "people near you panel" on accident. Some lady, probably American, had posted a rant about how the hotel she was in asked her to leave the fitness area because she was covered in tattoos. She went on about self image, and how it's degrading to her being a unique individual, and on and on. I was like, holy shit, does this person even realize the stigma behind tattoos here? Does she understand that she is in a culture that is incredibly not individualistic and all about the group? I mean, how can one go and spend time in a foreign country with that level of ignorance?
Sure, we all make mistakes, but I'd like to think most of us humbly accept that we did a cultural snafu and then move on.
Caucasians in America get asked this all the time too.
The usually intended question is about ethnicity. The problem is that phrasing (and the occasional racist) make it awkward.
I'm happy if a 0th generation immigrant considers themselves to be from my country. It implies a sense of pride and desire to be part of their new home and culture. Unfortunately, that pride can be injured when people inadvertently imply they do not belong - 'where are you really from?'
The opposite is becoming more common - born here, rejects local values/language, considers themselves from their ancestral country.
Reminds me of how the people most dissatisfied with their jobs stay the longest
More than anything else I wish I could just get on a plane and move to America but I can't because I'm not eligible for any visas. My company tried to relocate me and the immigration lawyer we hired basically said "can't happen, sorry". I did lots of research and I'm nowhere close to ticking enough boxes to do it. I'm currently trying to apply to University, with no idea how I'll afford it, to do a degree so I'll be more eligible for a visa and will tick more boxes in a few years.
It's why "just leave" or "just vote with your wallet" is terrible advice.
Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English. That mostly doesn't happen to Asian residents in the US.
Comparing the situation to America seems silly. Most people don't speak to Asians on the street in Japanese because most Americans don't speak Japanese. My Japanese wife, on the other hand, was addressed in Chinese when in china town in New York. Yes, confusion sometimes happens in all countries.
English is an International language and the majority of Japanese known at least a little bit. People of all countries can be expected know some English. If they speak to you in English, they are probably working off the statistically sound assumption that you might not speak Japanese, and are merely trying to communicate.
Honestly, it could very well depend on the city how you get received. I live in a fairly rural area and it's adapt or go home here. If you live in this area, people seem to just assume you are decently adapted and don't need to be handled like an outsider.
Note that this is functionally equivalent to saying "the only people who started conversations with me were people who wanted to practice their English", and that's probably closer to what was going on.
Personally, my first few years in Japan people started English conversations with me all the time, but at some point it slowed and then stopped - I can't even remember when last it happened. Whether that's due to something about me changing, or a byproduct of the places I hang out, etc., I have no idea.
(Helps that it’s English, specifically, too.)
In another light, I usually have a sense for whether my English will find purchase before speaking because American culture has subtle cues and tics even in the way one carries themselves. I don’t have the perspective of reversing the situation, but I’d totally buy a scenario where the same sense is difficult to ascertain inside other cultures. Then you have to think about which possibility is more polite/offensive between assuming their language or trying yours, especially in various cultures; we certainly look at this differently, given the first point.
That doesn't happen to asians in the US, you know maybe because they don't know the asian language?
I'm a white, blond man and went together with my white blond girlfriend.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14802742 and marked it off-topic.
Danger is calculated in risk per mile, not per capita / absolute.
I drive a 4Runner because it has lots of steel and is very safe so that when my kids get into an accident learning to drive they don't die.
Please don't kill anyone.
Hey fuck heads I could give a shit if I kill you when you run a red. If you don't want to be killed don't run red lights, I don't do it and I have a 4x4.
Also if I'm in the right lane with my turn signal on it means I'm turning right, don't try to pass me in the slow lane fuck wit.
I know. Now that you are aware that this is a problem could you extend the same courtesy to the author of this article?
Disclaimer: I've spent most of my life living in areas where bicycles outnumber cars, so my standards are likely different from yours.
And I indeed witnessed a total disregard for most safety measures, disregard for pedestrians etc.. While I wouldn't go around and make a documentary out of it, it was indeed a weird phenomena to witness.
I rarely, if ever get harassed by the police. But I know some Asian-American friends who get harassed... eg: the cop thinks he's Vietnamese, so starts giving him trouble. When the cop finds out he's from the U.S., all of a sudden the cop starts acting totally nice. I'd call that racism.
A Chinese tourist, seeing a sign with unintelligible English plus "No foreigners" written in Hanzi/Kanji, could assume they're not foreign, since they're not Anglophone...
This is illogical, I suppose, since really they amount to the same thing.
Except the entire purpose of that section of the post was to describe Japanese police.
And in that context he could say "The British police are awful" vs "The police are awful"
To compare. And then, yes, when it becomes necessary then yes, prefix with the adjective. In some cases it does make sense and aid communication.
I'm saying the blanket prefixing with the adjective is the problematic part.
It's fine if you don't agree, it's just a communication pattern I have noticed that doesn't seem to benefit anyone.
People who switch countries often talk that way without it being an insult.
I'm saying that framing things in this way can be bad for the mental health of the person who says it.
We definitely call it American Police, Canadian Police, French Police, Japanese Police, German Police etc.
Yes, we would. The Japanese penal system has a presumption of guilt.
For the core human values, a good example is the case of a little girl running dangerously near a well, any human except some psychopath will jump on their feet and save her. Here we all share something that can be qualified as universal.
You're arguing that "presumption of guilt" is somehow contextually relative. It's not. If 99% of "trials" result in a conviction, there's an unequivocal presumption of guilt.
Are you implying the Japanese have non-human values?
Before Trump got elected I would always get an angry glare and trigger defensive responses whenever I'd point out some aspect of the US that I felt could be improved or was lacking when compared to how things are in Canada.
After Trump it's a bit different. I think his election has been a bit of an eye opener for a lot of people that there really are deep-seated problems and maybe striving to be more like other countries that do things differently isn't such a bad idea.
Of course, that's just my experience living in a big city where my social circle is overwhelmingly liberal (which easily also applies to SF). I'm sure things are quite different in more rural/conservative areas of the country.
It works with other countries, too, eg. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/12/27/22/12272295f...
(note: comment intended to be "funny".)
Also in SF you'll get a bunch of self-hating people who haven't traveled much who think the U.S. sucks, just like in Alabama you'd get a bunch of irrationally pro-America people who haven't traveled much and don't see why the U.S. can suck with certain things.
And well, you in France also have your share of quirks. When I am in the US, and my English is less than perfect, everybody is still happy to continue conversation with me, encouraging me to speak, and generally very friendly and helpful. While if I am in France, and my French is less than perfect... well, usually I am getting a different treatment. (And heavens forbid me to start a conversation with anything else than bonjour or bonsoir!)
For any "outsiders" lurking here... discuss it! You'll take a social hit from certain types of people but future generations will thank you.
Having lived in various countries that seem to be able to handle critique quiet okay, it'd be a really pitty to just shy away from it in the US. A boastful bully often needs to hear that they are not the most fantastic person in the world. I mean, good self estime is great but so is some humility, even when it comes from the "outside". Actually it's often the person from the outside that is the only one to see the difference starkly enough.
Now I have a very positive impression of the US overall, but it seems strange to ask a question in casual conversation might not like the answer to.
Heavily ironic when this applies in the country of freedom.
Simplified Chinese would be "(谢绝)(中国人)" = "(politely refuse)(Chinese person)" = "(verb)(object)", which is correct Chinese grammar.
However, 謝絶 seems to be a noun/suru verb in Japanese (http://jisho.org/search/謝絶), so I think the equivalent phrase would be "(中国人)(を)(謝絶)(します)" = "(Chinese person)(object of)(polite refusal)(make)" = "(object)(particle marking object)(noun/suru verb)(inflected form of suru)".
Disclaimer: I am not a native speaker of either language and didn't have much in the way of grammar lessons, so this might all be horribly wrong. I'm definitely open to corrections ;)
I was saying something simpler: One Chinese-only character is enough to show it is not Japanese.
Said he, before proudly hanging his "No Irish" sign on the front door of his shop.
But this is a mild example that doesn't cost me much. I think it's an important thought experiment to figure out just how far you'd go and how much loss you'd accept to preserve that self-image of being "a good person."
I've noticed the opposite attitude. At least among western countries, the opposition to forcing kids to learn English seems to be far more prevalent among Americans and Brits than among non-anglophones.
In my country, English is mandatory in both primary and secondary education and this is not controversial in any way. It is considered common sense. You mention a lack of significant benefits to people's daily lives - of all the things kids learn in school, what is more useful than learning English? Very basic math certainly as it is necessary to function as an adult, but not much else. I don't remember what the anatomy of an arthropod is like nor do I need this information and I learned a ton of stuff like that in school, while being able to speak (and even more so read) English has opened many doors for me and been useful in so many ways. Academically, professionally and privately.
For anglophones, they and their kids are going to speak English and be fine in the modern world either way. So it is easier for them to virtue signal by dismissing the importance of learning English and supporting some misguided idea of "language equality". A lot of anglophones also don't notice the incredible amount of information in English and the incredible amount of people who speak English to some degree because they take it for granted, causing them to underestimate the usefulness of the language.
Japan may be an exception because it is culturally isolated compared to, for example, the EU. But still, I can't help but think investing more effort in teaching kids English would likely be more useful than at least some things they learn in school, even in Japan.
Also, fluent vs nearly useless is a false dichotomy.
And that is just talking about jobs. Wast amount of knowledge and entertainment is not translated to smaller languages and discussion happen in English. Especially in less popular areas.
Includes science and technology btw. If you can not read English blog or documentation, then you will be limited as a programmer.
Neat, but your guess is wildly wrong, and you should therefore discard your conclusions. Japanese mid/high-schoolers take about as many hours of English as they do math, science, or Japanese, and most study further hours at cram schools.
The fact that very few Japanese people can speak conversation English despite an extremely rigorous education is what people are talking about here - not whether Japanese people "should" (in a normative sense) speak English, as you're trying to imply.
Now that I think about it, in the UK the comedy archetype of an idiot going abroad who expects everyone to speak English is well-known and a figure of fun. Which would suggest that people broadly don't expect everyone overseas to speak English.
I would be curious to know how many people in US or UK consider themselves fluent in a foreign language for a class they took for a few years in middle/high school.
I certainly remember enough of my schooldays French (last lesson would have been about 22 years ago) to ask simple questions, give directions, interact with shopkeepers, ask people how their day went, that sort of thing. I do not consider myself fluent. Of course, living and working in the UK, I do get opportunity to use it every so often, which helps a lot I expect.
That's definitely seems to be the attitude of the author, and that of many people I see posting here, or many people I see every day that do not even try learning some local word. I agree that I expressed my opinion like I was generalizing, not my intention.
"I certainly remember enough of my schooldays French to ask simple questions, give directions, interact with shopkeepers, ask people how their day went, that sort of thing"
As probably do most people learning English at school. It's clear that the author is not talking about this level of fluency.
I interpret his words ("The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school") not to mean that he expects fluency.
It's clear that the author is not talking about this level of fluency.
I disagree. I think the author simply says that the level of English is shockingly low. I don't think that we can infer from those words that he's expecting a high level of fluency.
> I find the attitude of people from
> English-speaking countries that the
> rest of the world should speak fluent
> English quite puzzling
It should be ok to criticize foreign school system when it seems to unperform.
Anyway, asking these things I guess is pretty universal.
Is your answer genuinely "I would let myself and those I care about suffer an unlimited amount of harm in order to avoid the possibility of inflicting an unfair prejudice on any individual"? Because according to your stated position, anything less is "defending racism".
And I strongly suspect that, if it were put to the test, you really would not accept arbitrary harm in order to "not defend racism". And if so, then you're publicly declaring that you hold a 'virtuous' position, when in reality you do not. And that is the definition of 'virtue signalling'.
Of course there's a practical limit to tolerance. This isn't it.
Yes, it may be annoying that America won't accept you, but that doesn't mean you don't have any options.
Thinking about it, I realize this may not the best example to give to why "just leave" doesn't work. You might have an attachment to the culture and few, if any, other countries can tick the same boxes.
For me, there's both push and pull factors so while I could go to another country (e.g. I have family in Australia), and it may help a bit, it wouldn't be what I'm looking for. There's aspects of US culture I struggle to find elsewhere.
When did I say it was offensive?
Perhaps I am little defensive as I often encounter the point of view that if a foreigner is treated any differently than a racially Japanese person, that this is somehow a fault of Japanese or their culture, when really the worst you can say about them on this topic is that they are observant. People get all worked up that Japanese people know they are white.
It's like I'm older and get asked if I have kids all the time. My younger colleagues never get asked that. They get asked where they went to school and such. It's not discrimination, it's people trying to make conversation and making some reasonable assumptions along the way.
Anyway rant over.
I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I think you eventually hit a threshold where you are somehow signaling via body language or manner that, as you say, you don't need to be handled like an outsider.
Edit: I just noticed I have replied to you twice. We seem to be on the same page :)
Yes, which is a source of white people being "forever foreigners" in Japan, which is exactly my point.
You seem to be assuming I think they're making a mistake by doing this, or for some reason shouldn't be doing it, which I never said.
It never bothered me. Whenever I initiated a conversation people just spoke Japanese. Sometimes people would start in English, but the conversation always effortlessly slid into Japanese when I answered in Japanese. Further down from Tokyo the experience tends to be even simpler at times: either you speak Japanese, or you have no conversations at all.
Everybody assumes that she is Chinese as well...
By the way, my wife is also Japanese... it's possible that our wives know each other :)
I can't believe I'm seeing this kind of ignorance on HN...
Also, bike lanes are rare in most of the US, and at least in California (which is where I got my license), if you're driving a car and turning right, you can enter the bike lane for the last couple hundred feet. In theory, that prevents right hooks, but it doesn't seem to help much in practice. The other issue is that you can turn right on a red light, so the driver is often looking only to the left for approaching traffic, turns right as soon as they see a gap, and runs over the cyclist or pedestrian who happened to be to their right.
What is surprising is how every respondent thus far has misinterpreted what I said.
It's obvious that talking English in the US is not on a par with talking Japanese in Japan and also not on a par with talking English in Japan. Talking to someone in English in the US is compatible with considering that person a foreigner and compatible with not considering that person a foreigner, whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner and talking Japanese with someone in Japan means that you accept that person as a non-foreigner.
So what was your point?
Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner".
No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking.
What you say would be the case if they considered you a foreigner still after they've known you and learned that you in fact speak Japanese and stay there for decades or so.
Which would be a statistically sound assumption.
In Japan, the cases of caucasians that were born and raised there are very rare (compared to just tourists or short term staying), so they naturally assume you are not that.
It's just that the US has all kinds of people living there since centuries even (e.g. 3-4th generations of Chinese), so you can't make the assumption that a Chinese in the US is a foreigner. Plus, the US doesn't have any ethnical cohesion anyway, so even a newly arrived asian, french, russian, or latin american etc, fits right in with the general population.
Given that, the real "forever a foreigner" problem to me would have to do with the acceptance (or lack thereof) of those that know you (e.g. how colleagues, neighbors, etc see you), not how random strangers see you. That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner...
This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my respondents are making, which is to assume I'm claiming that the native Japanese are in some way doing something wrong by assuming I don't speak Japanese.
> That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner...
I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. You're taking a very inconsiderate side of this argument, not to mention incorrect.
Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for years as a very tiny ethnic minority there (not even 0.01%).
But in general, "you haven't experienced it" is no real argument, because just having experienced something doesn't mean the experience or the interpretation of the experience is justified. And that's something that someone who hasn't experienced the thing might still be able to point out.
I don't doubt that one can feel "like a foreigner" in Japan.
People can feel all sorts of things, including that, and Japanese society might especially encourage them to feel like foreigners.
What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason -- and not about how he's treated and how he's integrated (or not) into his Japanese social circles, but about how Japanese people he doesn't know think he's a tourist or short term visitor.
A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X.
Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.
I think where we disagree is that I think that this is not an absolute, but depends on a) what people, and b) under what circumstances and for what reasons they assume you're X.
If it's only strangers that assume that, and because it's more or less statistically sound to assume it (that has nothing to do with you specifically) then
E.g. if people assume I'm a jerk for wearing some t-shirt message, but only because they don't know me and don't know I wear it ironically, then it wouldn't make me feel like perhaps I'm a jerk -- just that they don't know me and/or they don't get the joke. If on the other hand people I know imply that I'm a jerk, that would actually hurt me.
But maybe all this is over-analysing (well, not maybe, it is).
In a sense, someone living in Japan who is not Japanese, it is indeed a foreigner. Unlike the US or UK, etc, Japan is an ethnically cohesive society -- most of them are not just born there AND raised there, but also of Japanese ethnicity for millennia. So it makes sense not to consider a caucasian who lives there even 20 or 30 years as Japanese. But the key is probably whether they feel welcome.