No I'm not implying that. I'm describing the OP's political beliefs, based on his previous comments.

Right, but you could do that with any P2P overlay network with any embeddable VM. Why use the very unorthodox one that Urbit came up with? I really think that's the question people are asking when they say they don't understand Urbit. Not, "why would we want to do what this system claims to let us do", but rather, "why would we want to do it that way?"

I never heard of this. Like, never even in passing have I seen that bounty mentioned. One of the trivial apps that was demoed literally years ago was a simple tic-tac-toe app, and there is even a MUD written for Urbit, so saying it's impossible to write apps for it isn't true. The web server is hosted in Urbit, along with the developer chat room. And really, the problem isn't that apps are impossible to write but that they would be easier to write using a different platform, which is probably true (for strip poker at least), since you don't need anything more complex than a couple hundred lines of C.

> I'm confused. Is this just saying that Urbit supposed to replace my Windows desktop and all the cloud services I use?

You'd run an Urbit instance (a planet) in the cloud (ideally, on three separate machines where a disk write succeeds if two out of three nodes receive it) and then run sub-instances (moons) on each of your personal computing devices (computers, phone, tablets). You could then interact with your planet and/or moons from your browser.

You'd do this because you want to run cloud-type services like photo sharing and (micro)blogging and such, but you _also_ want to do so through your own UI, not UI controlled by someone else whose interests are disaligned with yours, like Mark Zuckerberg's.

I can't imagine it'd replace standard OSs like Windows, macOS, iOS, and Android.

> Also, what does "Urbit's formal semantics makes ships trivial to migrate" mean?

If you want to move a ship (a directory containing your planet's data) from one (cloud?) computer to another, all you need to do is shut it down, scp it to the new location, and then start it back up again.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512

> One of the most persuasive things you could do in this situation would be to post a quote written by Chris. Posting a quote from Moldbug would be the second most persuasive thing. Failing either of those, are we supposed to just take your word for it that the dude should be excluded from society? > This whole "label and exclude" thing is for the birds. Why not judge ideas instead of people?

Don't mind if I do:

- From my perspective, Urbit is culty vaporware which does nothing out of the ordinary that actually DELIVERS. CY (or MM, whatever) seems to me what can best be described as an edgelord, using sophistry to make himself sound smarter than he is (which might still be plenty smart) and stirring controversy by going against mainstream views just because.

Arguements: Urbit ticks all of the boxes for techno-cults like we saw in the 60s and 70s.

* invent their own special language * reinvent everything from scratch to improve group cohesion * dismiss any criticism as "not getting it"

I will be convinced if anything USEFUL comes out of urbit. Not "can't you see that it WOULD be useful", but "here, I built this thing". That settles the technical argument for me

On the edgelord topic, two quotes, one from the link you gave and one form the AMA he gave (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/4bxf6f/im_curtis_yarv...)

Quote 1:

> HNU(“human neurological uniformity”). is not a natural null hypothesis. Its doubters don’t need to disprove it. It needs to prove itself. Genetic and anatomical inhomogeneity is normal in the species. Statistically, its presence is expected and its absence would be remarkable. No such absence is found.

I don't want to judge the politics, but just on the intellectual criticism and CONTENT:

1. He switches and dodges between "statistical" and absolutist language. A uniform distribution is something very different than uniformity. 2. Without any external bias or information, neither presence or absence of a uniform distribution is expected, or remarkable. 3. To just assume HNU or non-HNU as a given without asking for "why" and just attributing it to species/genome is simplistic

Notice how he never makes an actual CLAIM, or clarifies everything, just uses vague language and puts himself in the persecuted role

Quote 2, answering what I think is a...fan? who asked for some clarifications to the writings (broken apart by me):

>Fascism no longer exists. It's as dead as Odinism. You can reinvent Odinism, but it's not Odinism, it's fake Odinism. Unless it's a joke (and don't get me wrong, Nazi Microsoft chatbots are funny), it's pathetic. Actually, the fact that /pol has made Hitler funny is the best possible evidence that Hitler is completely dead.

Ok so far,though you could start arguing that this is weasely sophistry by arguing about the exact definition of "fashism", and you can disagree on whether fashism in the hitler style is truly dead, but nothing evil. It's a bit of a tautology (nothing can exist exactly like it was before), but ok.

>What's alive is the ideological system that defeated fascism -- which committed plenty of atrocities of its own. Of our own. When we think about crimes from the last century, it seems more relevant to think about the crimes we committed, not those they comitted

Here the little bit of sophistry turns into a blatant misdirection: instead of talking about fashism, he's talking about general human attrocities while creating a false equivalency. But let's assume he means it in an innocent way, just badly phrased, and REALLY cares about the current attrocities and problems in modern society and will take actual positions.

>What is fascism? It's exactly what everyone thinks it is. The conventional wisdom is perfectly correct. Our historians have a merciless, laser-sharp understanding of everything bad that fascism was and everything it did wrong. What hasn't been done is turning this same laser on our own institutions.

Except, yes, it has. Ask any civil rights advocate, ask ACLU, ask anyone outside of the mainstream for the last 50 years. Criticism has been abound, it was just silenced. Blatant misrepresentation

>As for the word "slavery," it means too many things at the same time. Robert Nozick in the '70s devised a beautiful little paradox for people who think they can define "slavery": [http://www.colorado.edu/studentgroups/libertarians/issues/no...]. Try it.

Again, instead of talking about the THING, playing with definition. By this point we might want to abandon the hypothesis of innocence and assume sophistry. But nothing horrible yet (except the blatant misrepresentation in the last sentence). Just because words change over history does not mean they don't carry specific meaning right now

>For example, is "debt slavery" slavery? Or is it only slavery when you can't declare bankruptcy? Oddly enough, our society has one form of debt that can't be shed in bankruptcy: student loans. The institutions that benefit from it are our most powerful and privileged.

Good point, if taken alone. Notice here he ACTUALLY makes a statement for once. There are other people who'd argue that student loans, prison labor etc. are modern forms of slavery.

>What Carlyle said about slavery is that you can ban the word, but not the institution.

You can also ban the institution. Look at norway, germany, any other country. And yes, there is no perfection, but that is missing the point.

>There are plenty of people today who will be paying off their student loans until they die. Is this the same as being whipped by Leonardo DiCaprio unless you chop your quota of sugarcane? It is not.

Correct, nobody claims it is. But he implies people claim that.

>Is it "slavery"? Dunno, you tell me. Are they both bad things? Sure. Is everything that can fit, or has in the past fit, under this label, evil? If so, it would be a very unusual label.

Actually, from our perspective: yes, it would. Some forms might be more acceptable (house slaves in ancient greece/rome), but nobody would choose to be a slave coming from our society. Just because the world changes, doesn't mean you can dismiss it.

>As for your last question, it's simply a matter of who has actual power in our society. Everyone wants to think of themselves as powerless and/or oppressed. But actual power dynamics are not hard to find.

This is true. You can argue it is also shying away from taking a stand, but it's implied that he did that somewhere else, so ok.

Synopsis:

In a question for clarification asked by someone who seemed to express sympathy, we have enough dodging and sophistry to severely question the intellectual merit of his position. Without taking any other judgement, I classify him as "edgelord". I couldn't find an email, but I would love to interview him via a GPG signed email chain, so there is accountability for statements. My keys for this:

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Frankly, intelligence is not very high on my list of attributes I value in people. Plenty of terrible people are intelligent. And although I'm not deeply versed on the collective works of Yarvin/Moldbug, I know enough from osmosis, and also that, a) dark enlightenment type discussions that I've witnessed on Reddit et al. over the past few years — which have seemingly morphed into today's alt-right — are downright nauseating in their toxicity, and b) "roleplaying" and/or "it was just a joke" is one of the most disingenuous and overused excuses on the internet today. I equally loathe Thiel's ideas, and he appears to be closely tied to the project. There's really not much wiggle room here, even if the tech is great.

Tribalism. Is something like GNU equally tribalistic, then? Are we not permitted to shape the world by selectively choosing which personalities and projects will help us towards a better future? Tech by itself is worthless; it's the people who handle it and the social contexts in which it exists that make all the difference.

As for debate, there's the sea lion principle[1][2]. Unfortunately, with some genres of ideas, prim and proper debate is simply impossible. You're pitting reason against waves of the unreasonable. It is a war of attrition and you will lose.

It makes no difference to me whether any one particular person will "dig in to their beliefs and decide for [themselves]". I am personally not concerned with changing hearts and minds, but as a member of the community I do want to make my personal line in the sand clear and hope that others feel the same way. The coddling and back-patting that SV folks give these kinds of idealogues really upsets me.

[1]: http://wondermark.com/1k62/ [2]: https://www.wired.com/2014/10/trolls-will-always-win/

My dude, how can you read code out loud and not understand the draw of having single-syllabul names for all the weird characters in ASCII. I don't have many of them, but this is a hill I will die on even if Urbit falls off the internet tomorrow. Luckily, you don't /actually/ have to memorize those. They aren't used if you aren't saying runes out loud.

There's a difference between reinventing ten wheels ten different ways for ten apps, and reinventing one really big wheel. It has to be self-contained enough that other apps can use it without having to roll their own anything, so all of them has the same API.

One of the problems with "just use a different P2P VM" is that it probably wouldn't solve the problem of having a server your mother could use. You'd probably still have to install and setup Apache and MySQL and ElasticSearch and whatever, even if someone implements the perfect transport protocol and platform. For Urbit you just run it, which can be hidden behind a pretty "click to start" button that pings our to AWS. Hence, one big wheel.

If you do see an Urbit-like project that has the same goals, I would be ecstatic to hear about it though. I've basically had "urbit but different" on my TODO list since I first saw about it.

I think urbit started out as a pomo critique of modern academia and tech, with heavy jargon and wheel rebuilding. Then, some other people started taking it seriously. I’m not sure if that is the best or worst outcome for this kind of joke.

By maturity I meant something like "continuous opeartion for a year with cryptographically signed live update (including cryptography themselves, implemented in VM)", which Urbit did. But okay, I am also interested in competing projects of any maturity.

Whoah, hold on. I hate to zoom in and nitpick, but I'm not guessing when I provide that reason for the 2^32 bit address space. It's the official stated answer from the project itself.

And I'm not saying the problem with that design decision is that it's amoral (let's stipulate that it isn't). I'm saying that it's extremely unconventional, a landmine of orthogonal ideology buried in the architecture of the system. Before committing to building a new product in someone else's framework, I'd want to know about all such weird decisions, and about why they are that way. Maybe Urbit's principles are compatible with the way you think about every possible aspect of how your system will interact with any of its users ever (since that's what you're buying into when you literally adopt an entirely new network to build against and deploy on). But maybe not!

Most framework designs coercively project opinions about whether the efficiency of register-sized addresses are worth the flexibility tradeoff, or whether it should be easier to define new URL patterns versus making it easier to dispatch the full complement of HTTP verbs, or whether closures are first-class or sum types are worth the complexity. Not a lot of programming environments ask us to determine what double-digit percentage of the world's population is too irresponsible to deserve an address. Again: their words (almost; I changed the order).

I'm trying to be careful not to use loaded terms like the f-word you just used, by the way. What I think about Urbit's founder is not necessarily the same as what conclusions I'd draw about this particular system, which is, I think, fatally flawed on its own demerits.

4,294,967,296 is the number of planets which is a much more than 4 million. Think about a planet as a piece of land more than a phone number. How many people on earth own a piece of land? And when will that reach 4 billion?

Also, if Urbit becomes popular other groups will start similar systems and they will be able to interact.

If it hasn't already, the total number of humans with mobile phone service will exceed 2^32 within the next year or two, and phone service typically isn't given away free out of the goodness of the phone companies' hearts.

So the mobile industry is already past or very soon to be past the 32-bit space with paying customers.

The reference docs honestly aren't the best place to start when learning Hoon, as backwards as that may sound. I've found the tutorial docs[0] to be much more helpful when first exploring Urbit, and there's a fair amount of good community documentation listed on the docs page[1] as well.

[0]: https://urbit.org/docs/arvo/

[1]: https://urbit.org/docs/

Right, so you get to drop a molotov here in hopes that you'll sway people from supporting Chris. The moment you have to do real work, you're out.

You posted here because you thought you'd influence people. My mind is open. Do you want to influence them or not?

It's not even hard. A single quote along the lines of "I support murdering people I dislike" would do it.

(Meanwhile, soon: "'I support murdering people I dislike' -- quote penned under handle sillysaurus3 casts serious doubts about the author's moral compass")

You're not even allowing for the possibility that his followers took his writings and morphed them into whatever ideas offended you. (You still haven't specified those.) If hypothetically some alt-right fanatics seized pg's essays and lauded them as an example of white supremacy, are we to exclude Paul from polite society too?

exactly :)

> "A value in Hoon is called a noun" - or you could just call it a value.

A "value" sounds like an abstract concept. A noun is one of two things: a natural number or a pair of nouns. Calling it a "value" makes it sound much more abstract than it is.

> "A core has no exact equivalent in conventional languages, but the closest equivalent is an object. An object has methods; a core has functionally computed attributes (arms). An arm that produces a gate is the Hoon equivalent of a conventional method;" - or you could just say that objects in Hoon (the language) can have methods and attributes, and you would never need to invent the core/arm/gate terminology.

A core is not an object in any meaningful sense. You can create stuff that looks like objects with them, but they're used for a lot more than that. For example, all gates/functions are cores, but there's no sense in which you'd call those "objects".

> They try to give themselves an out by saying stuff like "Hoon has concepts like all these abstractions, but they remain false cognates." When you dig into it, the only unique things are the words. It's like children trying to come up with a code- "instead of door we'll say blorp and instead of close we'll say bleep. Now bleep the blorp before we continue inventing our code.

The thing about revolutionary concepts is that their underlying principles are different than what you're used to, so if they look similar on the surface, you're lulled into thinking they're basically the same. But anyone who's put significant effort into programming in Urbit will tell you the system is fundamentally different. Not in the sense of "you could never understand what's going on here"; but rather, "we made these few different design decisions in the beginning, and that permeates everything".

"It is really just a Unix server and programming language."

You should read https://urbit.org/posts/overview/

The whole reason Urbit exists is that Unix + the internet is broken and needs a complete overhaul

Re: the different names, there are slight differences between gates and functions, but I agree they're not important enough to merit the change in name. But hey, it takes a purist to spend 15 years rewriting the whole stack from scratch!

You said the founder believes "there aren't and never will be" 4B people "worthy" of an urbit planet. I'm asking where you got that "never will be" part.

I think your reading of that bit you quoted is extremely uncharitable. I don't see where urbit is passing pronouncements on anyone's "worthiness". The way I read that quote is, "an urbit planet is server software, and there are way less than 4B people with a server to run it on."

There are about 5 billion adults[0], and they don't all need separate planets. Married couples, for example, may not.

That's beside the point, though. Using scarcity to create value is not "extremely unconventional"; it's about the most ho-hum idea in Urbit. If you want a 128-bit address, you can use those in Urbit just fine. The only difference is that they don't have a default-positive reputation (where "reputation" is an abstract concept -- in practice, e.g. some channels wouldn't let 128-bit address post comments)

[0] https://www.census.gov/population/international/data/idb/wor...

Have they given a reason as to why it's not larger than 32-bit?

What the heck is that supposed to mean? "Persona?" Fine, Curtis Yarvin has said that he only reads old books.

Post modernism

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of your comment. This is the motivation for mine:

tptacek> [T]he founders ideological views are also infused into the system.... [T]he most available first-class address in the system is in a 32 bit address space.

chc4> As for ideological views: there are 4 million planets. They are, essentially, houses, but each one of those planets can also issue 2^16 "moons", which can themselves be their own people. I don't know the reasoning behind why 2^32....

njarboe> 4,294,967,296 is the number of planets which is a much more than 4 million.

I read 'njarboe's comment as a correction of chc4's use of "4 million". 4,294,967,296 is 2^32 (rounded to 4 billion), which 'chc4 mentions here as well saying 4 billion another comment.

If I've missed something, please do correct me. I just think 'chc4 meant to type "4 billion" given the their other correct use of 2^32 in the same comment and 4 billion elsewhere (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15300641), and 'njarboe's misinterpreted 'chc4 as misunderstanding, rather than fat-fingering. I'm not saying anything about the choice of 2^32. If you read that as otherwise, how can I improve my writing to make that clearer? Was there a particular phrase that you found easy to misinterpret? Something that made you think I was saying anything more than that? Do you think 'chc4 meant "4 million" and not "4 billion"? Are there actually only effectively 4 million (not billion) planets? As for my interest in continuing this thread, it's not that care about the discussion topic, but rather whether I'm communicating (reading and writing) effectively.

How are these not problems that every VM for a high-level programming language also addresses?

Thank you.

Given my proclivities in the occult, I do indeed have to watch out for real life cults. Now, I know this document is primarily for esoteric religion, it also very much applies to cults in other senses. But there's a few that really sticks out with me.

http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html

To me, this is a damning list of reasoning that Urbit should be considered a Cult, and thusly stayed away from. The only exception I give is, is to peeling back their crypto-jargon for any new concepts of computer science we in the larger community should document, understand, and use.

Interacting with this community only leads to poisonous cult mindsets that can easily damage your mind. Beware.

________________________________________________________________

1. Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.

Go look up anyone under Curtis Yarvin. Even in the HN thread. He is "The Master", and you are just too stupid to understand his pure clear thought.

2. Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

The evidence here is the appropriate HN posts, that give scorn for highlighting major issues with the language, choices in the network architecture, and choices elsewhere in Urbit as a whole. Anyone questioning anything with Urbit is either attacked, derided, ignored, or pushed aside usinng "Whataboutism".

3. Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.

You need to Arvo the hoon into the lolwut iron branch thats in a wet case. WHAT HOW DARE YOU NOT UNDERSTAND. You're just stupid, I guess.

4. Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or leader(s).

By definition, they all use Urbit to communicate. I looked in Freenode #urbit , and its something "superior" called tahc.. Yet if you look how Urbit works, any higher class user can disable sub-users' accounts. They call them stars/planets. Whatever. But your superior owners of your network block/address can censor you. And since it's federated, NOT decentralized or distributed, your id is easily blocked.

5. Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.

Insert all the completely new jargon. Instead, it separates users from IT anywhere else. This is the same thing Scientology does, so people feel special and "connected" only within their clique. Of course it doesn't translate out, so it can be used as a differentiator of "Those who know".

6. Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

Lockin is their way of handling this. Obviously they aren't holding guns to your head. But it's more of not wanting to cut losses because there "could" be something.

7. Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

Mencius Moldbug / Curtis Yarvin. I need say no more.

________________________________________________________________

While planet names would get harder to remember if they were longer (48 bits and six syllables instead of 32 bits and four syllables), the main reason they want the address space to be somewhat scarce is to make spam economically infeasible.

"So it's not true that Tlon can't just say $user's compute node is hereby expelled?"

Correct, this is untrue.

> not all of the last 30 odd years of systems and programming research was pointless.

Indeed, which is why it's a shame our primary server OSes (Unix-likes) can't incorporate them. Urbit can.

As for what are the approaches different, there have been many words spilled over that, but here's a few examples to wit, most of which exist in one or two other systems, but aren't widely used:

- All events are transactions, down to the VM level. There's no concept of an event that left garbage around because power was cut or the machine was rebooted. You can always crash an event, making it as if it never happened.

- Single-level store. Never worry about ORM because your in-memory state never goes away (because all events are transactions).

- Persistent connections with exactly-once messaging. Disconnection is just seen as long latency.

- Strict, purely functional language with a strong type system but no Hindley-Milner (so you don't need category theory).

- Sane indentation for a functional language, known as "backstep".

- The file system is a typed revision control system, which allows intelligent diffs on types other than plain text.

Most, if not all, of these, have been described in research, but nobody's bothered to build a system with them.

Oh, thanks for the correction.

It would appear that my knowledge is out of date: did Rust use something closer to H-M in the past? (Going off of https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/15955 here.)

Optionals are also "applicative", but Haskellers used them for a long time before applicative functors became popular. A concept can support a certain way of thinking about it without everyone needing to think that way :)