Some thoughts on security after ten years of Qmail 1.0(blog.acolyer.org) |
Some thoughts on security after ten years of Qmail 1.0(blog.acolyer.org) |
This makes it much easier to keep the bugs out, to the point that making software under such constraints is much more similar to traditional construction projects.
I mean: Nobody ever tells you after you have built a bridge that they are now going to upgrade gravity to gravity 2.0 with 100% more pull. And nobody will ever tell you that your bridge will now get a shopping mall in the middle of it where people can purchase products of their favorite brands.
Software starts to break down when it has to be taken above initial design constraints and when there is not enough time to rewrite subsystems (or all of it) but instead when you have to make the abstractions leaky and compromise.
But back to qmail:
qmail itself is so feature-poor that traditionally, nobody was and is actually running qmail. Instead everybody is running "qmail" which is qmail plus some patches. Sometimes home-grown, sometimes taken from third parties.
But more often than not they are unmaintained and very far removed from the high quality standards of the underlying software.
This is the downside. Yes. You have a bug-free core that totally meets its designers (limited) use-case, but in reality nobody is actually running that.
Having the correct architecture, and being able to rewrite the subsystems piecemeal means it is possible for users to experiment with new features organically[1]. That's part of why some qmail installations have features not available in any other mail server even today.
Or to put another way, software purity and homogeny isn't a "good thing", but a trade off: You get to share risk with everyone else who chose like you did, but you're also stuck with the same features and risk everyone else has.
I'd choose "feature-poor download, but highest-feature in production" over "a-few-more-features download and limited-ability-to-upgrade" any day.
[1]: If you're curious, some of the experiments I did are briefly mentioned here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16166530
Our web frontend for example worked on top of a slightly modified Qmail POP3 server that relied on encoding some message state in the filename, so we need only scan the Maildir without opening the files to be able to e.g. get message read state, and various flags. We also added caching of metadata etc. The changes were tiny and self-contained, and added one extra non-standard command to the pop3 server to retrieve a message list with much more data. The design of Qmail let us start with just changing the pop3 server, and later some tweaks to local delivery, and know we could test those programs in isolation.
The flexibility of Qmail even got us to use it as a messaging middleware later coupled with tinydns - all the routing and retry logic made it very convenient and extremely simple to troubleshoot.
I personally consider this backscatter issue a design bug in qmail.
We certainly should have switched mail servers, but qmail was deeply ingrained in our home-grown hosting automation system, and it would have been a big deal to change.
There were patches to fix the problem, along with offering useful features, but for whatever reason we went with exim (exim 3.x from Debian).
Instead everybody is running "qmail" which is qmail plus some patches."
I ran and continue to run qmail without any patches.
The above quoted statements thus cannot be true.
But maybe "nobody" and "everybody" are figures of speech?
Also, how are you dealing with backscatter?
are you sure? How can you be sure that your custom patches didn't affect the security of the core product? qmail wasn't designed to be extensible. It had no plugin interface.
Of course it's possible that you didn't make a mistake back then.
Just as it's possible that I didn't make a mistake when I was 18 and wrote a patch to Cyrus imapd to allow authenticating against an SQL database.
But TBH, when I look back at the code I wrote back then, at least in my case, I'm quite sure I f'ed up in various ways.
Thankfully, I never shared these patches with other people.
I had Qmail running circa 1998 and I'm pretty sure it was vanilla, no patches. But after all this time I could be wrong.
Anyway, shortly thereafter I discovered Postfix and that was the end of my relationship with Qmail.
(1996) https://www.fastcompany.com/28121/they-write-right-stuff
> It is perfect, as perfect as human beings have achieved. Consider these stats: the last three versions of the program — each 420,000 lines long-had just one error each. The last 11 versions of this software had a total of 17 errors. Commercial programs of equivalent complexity would have 5,000 errors.
> The process isn’t even rocket science. Its standard practice in almost every engineering discipline except software engineering.
The problem is consequences. We had centuries of people dying in bridge collapses before we got our shit together and started prioritizing safety in civil engineering (i.e. engineers and managers going to prison if they don't).
The same will be true for software. As more people get harmed by thrown together software (e.g. mass panic in Hawaii, state psychological exploitation on social media), we'll start regulating it like other engineering fields.
As a former chemical engineer, I welcome this transition, but I realize it will likely also take centuries of hard lessons.
I recall setting up qmail "toasters" on FreeBSD to do virtual hosting. Maybe I was just too much of a "n00b" but I remember it being a big PITA to get all the services to play well together. There was this hip new outfit named Yahoo! that was using it for their new webmail service, though -- as opposed to sendmail, which pretty much every MTA on the Internet used at the time (and I was proficient enough with sendmail that I would edit my sendmail.cf by hand; pffft, who needs m4!?) -- so I assumed it was certainly capable of handling my volume of mail. (I wasn't running authoritative DNS servers at the time or I probably would've used djbdns over BIND as well.)
qmail, unfortunately, never did become too popular (relatively speaking, of course) and that's really a shame, because, as the quote in the article says:
> "We need invulnerable software systems, and we need them today, ..."
While that was certainly true then, it's even more true now.
On a side note, I'm surprised that the "qmail security guarantee" [0,1] wasn't mentioned in the article:
> "In March 1997, I took the unusual step of publicly offering $500 to the first person to publish a verifiable security hole in the latest version of qmail: for example, a way for a user to exploit qmail to take over another account. My offer still stands. Nobody has found any security holes in qmail. I hereby increase the offer to $1000."
[0]: https://cr.yp.to/qmail/guarantee.html
[1]: https://cr.yp.to/qmail/qmailsec-20071101.pdf (PDF)
If it wasn't for all that, we might well all be using qmail-based mail servers today, as qmail was really ahead of its time in so many ways.
It was kind of like the Amiga of mail servers, back in the day. It could have easily dominated the market, but it wound up a mere historical curiosity.
In his example, yes, you could change the DNS responses, but you still could not escalate to a higher lever where you can potentially modify stored user data. That is a success in practice.
As others have pointed out, one thing left out of the paper is not updating the software. qmail doesn't support SPF or other security extensions, which makes it useless these days without patches.
Come to SE Asia and I’ll show you plenty of civil engineering projects with similarly poor planning and execution.
I can't find it now, but one of its points of comparison was: if a nut isn't tightened enough on a bridge, you can tighten it a bit more -- turn the nut 3 or maybe 6 millimeters more. In software engineering, if you tighten the nut only 3 millimeters instead of 6, one of the bridge's endpoints now ends in a different dimension.
I think there is a valid point to it. I'm always amazed in housing construction how things are done "approximately". A wall should be vertically straight... give or take a few centimeters. That kind of approximation doesn't work in software engineering. It has a whole other type of complexity to it.
For that matter, let me know when your engineers have built something as complex as the AWS infrastructure, by which I mean, every single service they offer, by information content (something like Kolmogorov complexity). There are some disciplines like power management that certainly have some very large and impressive things that I don't wish to diminish, but the idea that software engineering needs to go learn from all the other engineers is an idea stuck in a very 1970s view of what a "large project" looks like.
I am abundantly confident that if you took the amount of engineering done to build something like the Golden Gate bridge today, then took all those man-hours and saw how much software you could get for the same amount, that you'd be surprised how small the result is. Not that it wouldn't be a good chunk of hours to play with, and it would be much larger than many phone apps or web sites, but if you stack it up to something like a browser or a usable OS kernel I'm pretty sure you'd find that the very visually-imposing bridge is actually orders of magnitude, plural, simpler. I say this not because I don't respect civil engineers, but because I also respect just how quickly big computer projects can chew through the man-centuries. No bridges would get built if each one individually required engineering effort commensurate to a new web browser.
It's past time for programmers to get over their inferiority complex. A sober look at what the programming world does vs the other engineering fields shows that all things considered, we're doing pretty well. Still a huge amount of room for improvement, but we're not doing so badly that we need to go running off to other completely different disciplines to drag in irrelevant, if not actively harmful, practices that are unconnected to the problems we face.
Especially if you're building something with more than one story, and you expect people to actually pay for it.
(The most common one is breakoff studs on the bolts, which actually speeds thing up because the wrench can grab the nut and the stud on one side of the connection and torque away till it pops)
Should we forbid people from writing code without the proper certification? Should we close down the open internet and replace it with a regulated zone where only compliant software can be run?
I agree that we need a higher standard of engineering in software, but I’m not clear on how to achieve it without draconian measures.
The difference is that I don't then promise a municipality that I can build them a bridge that can take their citizens across a river, even in case of a 100 year event. Or an early warning system that can save their citizens from nuclear holocaust. This is the difference in maturity between software "engineering" and real engineering disciplines.
You're free to experiment with your own resources but as soon as you make a promise to the public or your customers you should be required to meet your promises in all circumstances.
After all, we've witnessed move-fast-and-break-things social networks (Facebook, Twitter, Reddit) that had no desire to influence society in a big way get hijacked by state actors to achieve political goals.
We're also witnessing toasters having web servers pre-installed on them with no thought into what happens if the company that pushes patches (if they do at all) goes bankrupt, thus creating vast oceans of botnets that the rest of us now have to deal with.
Again, I think there's a long road ahead of hard lessons when we don't take our own power in software seriously.
A (perhaps short-term) idea would be to make software vendors liable, and do not permit them to sign away that liability.
One big difference between those and programming is that there (outside of military, physical security, and few other exceptions) there are no active adversaries for your project. You design a X that will serve a defined purpose. You design for some parameters (known wind speeds or local natural hazards).
You don't normally design with someone actively trying to destroy your building in mind. You don't design thinking how to avoid the current issues and to isolate the impact of potential future attackers. Your product doesn't have a "well funded attackers will spend undefined amount of time trying to make your project fail" requirement.
You do, actually. When designing a building, one considers many "attacks" it can be subject to, depending on the geography and demography of the site: what are the precipitation patterns like, what is the situation WRT sysmical activity, how is the soil, what is beneath, what is the crime rate in the area, what kind of animals live there, where does the wind tend to come from, how much sunlight is received, etc. etc., about all of these questions are in one way or another is relevant to security of a building, and you have to consider each and every one of them, and design accordingly. You don't design against destruction because that's hardly possible, there isn't much you can do to mitigate someone bombing a building or attacking with heavy machines. Think of that as analogous to using the ME in an Intel CPU.
The article makes an unfair comparison; if the solution to the problem is like the one below (extract from the article), the change, reasonably, will never happen in commercial programs (the ones "with 5000 errors").
> Take the upgrade of the software to permit the shuttle to navigate with Global Positioning Satellites, a change that involves just 1.5% of the program, or 6,366 lines of code. The specs for that one change run 2,500 pages, a volume thicker than a phone book. The specs for the current program fill 30 volumes and run 40,000 pages.
- Tacoma Narrows bridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge
- Thalidomide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide
- Hyatt Regency walkway collapse: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse
- Challenger disaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Columbia_disaste...
- Columbia disaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Columbia_disaste...
- Vioxx: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib
...and plenty more. The only thing that separates software engineering with the other engineering disciplines is that there is a structure (usually in the form of code/spec enforcement) for internalizing and learning from disasters when they happen.
And it’s the dominant image of the software development world: Gen-Xers sporting T-shirts and distracted looks, squeezing too much heroic code writing into too little time; rollerblades and mountain bikes tucked in corners; pizza boxes and Starbucks cups discarded in conference rooms; dueling tunes from Smashing Pumpkins, Alanis Morrisette and the Fugees. Its the world made famous, romantic, even inevitable by stories out of Sun Microsystems, Microsoft, and Netscape.
It's incredible how much software development has changed over the last 21 years. Change Gen-Xers to Millennials, update the playlist, and replace Sun Microsystems, Microsoft, and Netscape with Apple, Facebook and Google.
I don't do a car inspection at a guy that just happens to know some stuff about mechanics.
The leads to a race to the bottom for which both the software vendors and consumers are responsible. Everybody wants the latest stuff as soon as possible, and wants to play less. If you release software only when everything's "right", the market will have moved on.
... unless we the people demand legislation that protects us from software "vendors" selling us their bugs.
I think it's interesting that people can see a car that doesn't work, and a house that's falling apart, but they can't really see software. Can you imagine someone saying "my house is leaking" and the landlord saying, with all seriousness: "Have you tried turning it off and on?"
Of course, we have legislature for those things, so why not software?
I.e. we rarely hear about plane crashes caused by software, or power plants accidentally blowing up due to an integer underflow.
Civil engineers make solid bridges, but most software is not the golden gate, it's a shed thrown together by some guy who's not an engineer nor a professional mason.
We could make cars that don't kill people.
We could make software that doesn't break.
At one point, it was the second most popular MTA on the Internet. What pray tell would "too popular" look like?
> I remember it being a big PITA to get all the services to play well together.
When you were thinking about qmail correctly, it was an absolute pleasure to get everything to work together. Promise. Yet whilst the documentation was correct, it probably wasn't very good from the perspective of helping people think about it correctly. André Oppermann[1] (and perhaps Dave Sill[2]) did a much better job of this, so when they came available I would usually have pointed people there and see what kinds of questions they still had.
* https://cr.yp.to/maildisasters/postfix.19981221
* https://cr.yp.to/maildisasters/postfix.html
* https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/mailing.postfix.users/...
Software like qmail and the dev file system at the time really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because of the drastic design changes they push. I'm glad that particular dev file system died as it had a lot of weirdly named nodes and a devfs daemon that had to run to create symbolic links to all the known names.
That setup contributed to security.
It also made qmail very easy to extend: I operated a medium-sized mail service a while ago and qmail's pluggability meant I could add features that didn't exist in other mail servers (like postfix or exim) without forking the entire project.
* I had SMTP AUTH when the only other mail server to support it was Netscape; before RFC2554 was written.
* My qmail-popup proxied to another machine so it didn't need root (making me immune to the Guninski vulnerability) so my users only needed to know about a single hostname regardless of where their mail was stored, and without needing to use something icky like NFS.
* I had a web interface with auto-enrolled client certificates for authentication and confidentiality for SMTP, POP, and IMAP.
* My qmail-remote recognised certain suggestions our IP was being blacklisted and would retry immediately with a new IP.
* My qmail-remote recognised certain greylisting error messages and rescheduled retry for that time.
* I had multiple mail queues based on the number of retries the message had seen.
And so on. I didn't start out to make those features, they just grew over a decade or so organically. At no point would I have forked postfix or exim to add any of those features because once you fork it you own it unless you can get your changes upstream. I had shit to do, so the real alternative was simply buy more servers and/or pay for commercial software.
I wish the model had caught on, because it's a superior way to develop software. I didn't understand why though until fifteen years later...
> …and unwillingness to share and collaborate on its development…
Dan absolutely collaborated, and I certainly was using betas back in 1996.
If my memory/anecdote isn't enough: There are a number of explicit points of evidence in the changelog distributed with qmail.
What he doesn't do is let people save face when they say something incredibly stupid and then try to backpedal when it's obvious how wrong they are. This bruised more than a few egos, and contributed to a campaign to actively smear his name and discredit his software.
> It could have easily dominated the market…
I think if Dan had let the peanut gallery have their way, we probably wouldn't have gotten postfix, but then qmail wouldn't have been qmail except in name. What's the value in the qmail brand if it isn't secure anymore?
Yes, they have been feature locked for a long time. But let's not pretend that collaboration in 1996 was anything like it is today. And let's not pretend that there haven't been a plethora of security issues in all kinds of software that simply haven't befallen Bernsteins' software as a direct result of how he managed the projects.
I had the distinct impression that "dominating the market" was never a thought in his mind. He wrote the software he wanted to write and shared it. It was good software. It's still being used by many people.
The man isn't infallable. He isn't always right. But whenever I paid attention to him, he was right a lot more frequently than he was wrong.
The fact that he wasn't driven by dollars or market dominance was a good thing.
I, for one, admire the man and his software.
Can you elaborate?
The licensing stuff, I'm not super clear on. If memory serves, DJB did not want to worry about bugs introduced by patches he'd never seen or approved, added by package maintainers for OSes he didn't use.
As for the somewhat weird ecosystem (daemontools), I think it wasn't that it wasn't good enough, it was just that people always find reasons to be dissatisfied. I can't even keep track of the latest reinvention of whatever people are using instead of daemontools, but I bet it's a hundred times as complex, and much less reliable.
* http://jdebp.eu./FGA/law-licence-free-softwares.html
Daemontools ironically wasn't weird at all, as evidenced by the fact that over the past almost two decades the daemontools world got us changes to softwares, all of those do not daemonize options that have appeared in that time as well as things like removing mysql_safe and other Poor Man's Dæmon Supervisors, that made it a lot easier to use those softwares with other service managers.
* http://jdebp.eu./Softwares/nosh/mariadb-and-mysql.html#Promp...
Some of the things that people use instead of daemontools are not much less reliable. (-:
The only protection from this is to make the code that does this as small as possible so that us human beings can convince ourselves that it is correct and that the risk of a bug that someone can control is zero (or as close to zero as to make no odds).
When Jim Reid wants to pat himself on the back because "at least they didn't get root on my nameserver box", he misses the point: gethostbyname()'s spec doesn't say "it may or may not return. if it returns it could return anything. don't trust it, don't even use it!" They say gethostbyname() return a structure describing the address of the named Internet host, so people expect that and depend on that. Something that "suddenly" violates that gets in the news[1]. Fortunately, nobody remembers what Jim said so the BBC doesn't ask him for a comment.
Anyway.
"Minimizing privilege" doesn't solve that problem because the DNS server needs the privilege to respond to DNS requests.
It might be easier to think about a better example. Let's talk about zlib.
A program that needs to decompress some text is not concerned with the contents of the compressed text, only the uncompressed text. Resource limits on our program exist to keep some things from getting out of control[2], but what about bugs?
If we could run zlib's decompress() with the permission only to decompress text, then the worst-case impact would either spin the cpu or be equivalent to "getting out of control". What do we need to do that?
• No creating file descriptors can be done with setrlimit() except for the dynamic linker is going to open a shittonne of files. We need to know what the minimum number of files are, and decompress can't ever change that without changing our program anyway.
• No accessing files or the network could be done with a setuid wrapper and iptables. At least on Linux. Most programmers don't do this, and most sysadmins only do what they're told, so in practice this doesn't happen.
• Sandboxing! Google published some clever user-level sandboxing that works on Linux to whitelist each syscall. This "verifier" could do it as long as it's smaller than decompress()!
That sandboxing one is tricky: A tiny inflate routine takes around 500 lines of C done the normal way, but how big is our sandbox? Probably a lot bigger.
• Ask the operating system for help! This is what DJB suggests. Ask for a disablefiles and a disablenetwork system call. OpenBSD is implementing this with their pledge[3] system call.
There's not a portable and satisfying solution here yet, but you can see they all cluster around reducing the privileges of the untrusted program.
Now, what's to prevent decompress from lying? What if someone can produce a content stream that causes a future decompress run from producing invalid results. Maybe something really sneaky[4]. What possible protection could we have?
As you can see, in this case so long as decompress is supposed to produce "text", there's nothing we can do to make sure it produces the "correct text".
That's why DJB doesn't want to focus on the "untrusted" aspect, and instead on trying to solve the problem that we have to solve anyway: How do we write software that is correct?
[1]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7496735.stm
As soon as you build non-trivial systems, you have to contain error propagation with POLP, although you are striving to build simple and secure systems.
Taking the DNS Helper example, one could imagine a function-like DNS Helper which has the capability only to return a value. This would make libresolv just a bug, not a security hole, because the attacker would only pervert their own request.
I am an end user not an email provider.
For example I use qmail to provide "inter-device email" on a local network of devices all belonging to the same user, and not connected to the internet. Not that I love email but these devices are sometimes "locked down" by default and email is one of the few ways to move files between devices without using the internet.
Another example is using qmail on a tap-based layer 2 overlay (not OpenVPN) to provide encrypted "peer-to-peer email". Each peer is running qmail-smtpd bound to a tap device. This was an experiment to prove encrypted email is easy.
qmail running under curvecpserver is another experiment.
Not using Linux.
Advice for all commenters who make presumptions about others computer use: Please kindly check your assumptions.
1 Is this an issue for musl and the various other alternatives to glibc? I have no idea but seems like only referring to glibc 2.3.x and up is a bit myopic. Its possible some users might not be using that library. I am one such user.
And there are solutions for improving software safety, it starts by improving the process of software development. And for that there's at least one sort of official framework: CMMI.
(Even though DoD stopped requiring CMMI, but it still considers it a big plus, and companies for important stuff all use it.)
Of course, it'll be interesting to see what goes on with the F-35, as a lot of testing is now "skipped". (Sure, that is not software testing, but still, I can't imagine the software dev process is in a better shape after all these delays, cost overruns and probably still ongoing requirement changes.)
The Waco fertilizer plant explosion (2013), cause determined to be arson (2016)
San Francisco Bay Bridge seismic bolt failures (2013), caused during construction: https://www.nace.org/CORROSION-FAILURES-San-Francisco-Bay-Br...
The Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster (2011), design/regulatory failure
And so forth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Industrial_disasters_...
And so on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Engineering_failures
Serious engineering failures are still happening. Sure, the most famous ones may be decades old, but those aren't the only ones.
Yes. Outlook isn't conforming to the spec, but it's also being actively used and even if you could put pressure on Microsoft to fix it (good luck doing that back in the early 00s), you can't possibly force all your customers to update.
Now you have three options:
1. you switch MTA to one that can deal with the non-conforming clients.
2. you add a proxy server that interfaces between the non-conforming clients and your MTA
3. you patch your MTA
Unfortunately, because of qmail's good reputation ("hey! we're running qmail that never had security issues!") and because of the lack of abilities of your run of the mill ISP to write a scaling SMTP proxy, what people have traditionally have done is option 3.
What they forget about option 3 is that the one big advantage of that solution ("hey! we're running qmail") isn't valid any more because you're not exactly running qmail any more. You're running qmail plus some additional patches that actually touch the public interface of your MTA and are thus exposed to the network. To unauthenticated users.
So IMHO, they should have gone with option 1) or, nowadays where it's easier to write a well-scaling SMTP proxy thanks to the raise of asynchronous event based communication, option 2, but you'd better be sure you're not introducing security flaws in your reverse proxy.
Nearly twenty years ago when they did, (4) I could use fixcrio (which is hardly a proxy server): I simply ran it one of the ports that accepted mail from MUAs directly.
The orbiter software group managed to not kill anybody with their software although there were some 17 bugs flown. The same cannot be said of the mechanical and human management systems, which killed one crew and possibly two.
Real software projects often fails for similar reasons, when somebody says "we know it's not designed for that condition, fly it anyway".
And that of course impacts the software side too, the rocket is constantly changing, the software has to change too, bugs are guaranteed.
I did a webmail "based on qmail" as well. It's still running[1] if you're curious.
It had a few interesting details - we ran it on ReiserFS for the fast/efficient small file support (at the time it really stood out) which made it great for Maildir's.
We also eventually used a small daemon to poll backends for which server a user belonged to, which had a mechanism to let us mark a user as "busy" so that we could balance accounts between backends by marking it as "busy" on both servers, sync the files over, and then mark it as available again without triggering errors anywhere. qmail on our MX's was modified to look up the right server that way.
The biggest changes were the POP modifications I mentioned. The ones I remember off the top of my head were:
* We modified qmail-local and the pop server to append size changes (from writing a new message or deleting one) to a file used to manage quotas. We appended rather than rewrite because it reduced the need for file locking (we took care to do single writes). We'd lock and coalesce the changes when the file got over a certain size.
* qmail-local was also changed to append the message size, and read-status to the filename. That let us avoid stat() calls for the files for the filesize, and opening and reading the files for unread counts etc. It was one of the first optimizations we did.
* Then we added a cache file that contained subject, sender, size, attachment status etc., for the web frontend, which would be dynamically re-generated automatically as needed.
* We made "+[something]" sort directly into folder "something".
* When we sold it I was most of the way through adding Sieve support to our qmail-local replacement.
These changes were quite small, and each successive changes lowered IO load dramatically (we handled about 2 million accounts before it was sold). Today, we could probably handle the IO load and storage we had with a single NVMe card...
The web frontend would try to use our extended POP3 command, and then fall back to scan the messages (and store a cache locally on the frontend) if it wasn't available, so we could use it as a POP3 client for other backends too. (The frontend is a story in itself - C++ CGI statically linked to shorted load time (it made a big difference at the time) and with "delete" only for really large allocations, to avoid wasting time on deallocation since we knew each process would at most live for a few seconds.
It's a shame that more people don't develop software with this kind of... change-for-purpose.
It's kind of like using OBSD as your app platform. You can definitely make it insecure! But it's more secure by default than others, perhaps because of a lack of features, as well as very good security design.
Imagine being the sole person responsible for migrating Linux from ip/nftables to ebtables. You don't know how your stuff will be used downstream. So you license it with text in all caps reminding people that your software is provided WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. And people still use it to build oil pipelines that bleed toxic goop when sent a really weird keepalive message.
I hope that the first place we see an uptick is security. The list has grown rather long: consumer/citizen identity breaches, hospital ransomware, digital asset theft, remote vehicle control, etc. Most security people I know are of the mindset that systems will be hacked. It's extremely.. pragmatic. You can't really fault the people responsible when many companies simply require good damage control over actual security in order to be successful.
But that's exactly the point. If the consequences were increased, not so many C[I]SOs would be okay with engineers using hot new software every few quarters. And those old boxes running Ruby 1.87 would sure as hell be patched or isolated to oblivion. Companies or projects with good security would flourish. Maybe some would be pressured to operate more like the archetype they're defending against (more red team, more organizational commitment to physical and operational security).
I worked at a security company that had to get rid of a slack bot screen lock game because it hurt some people's feels. So yeah I think some of the priorities in this industry are messed up.
In that case, a judge (and perhaps a jury) could hear how Red Hat did everything they possibly could to protect from the vulnerability as evidenced by their ISO QA processes and the fact that everyone else was vulnerable to the same "bug" … or from the other side how Microsoft and Apple weren't at-risk, so Red Hat should've caught it.
C[I]SOs would want to be patched, because ISO recommends they would be patched.
> You can't really fault the people responsible when many companies simply require good damage control over actual security in order to be successful.
Which is why I propose legislation, so "good damage control" wouldn't be enough.
You better believe that oil company would want some evidence of testing and proper specifications, and to have them reviewed by a couple independent parties if the government could take them for a percent of gross revenue for the security vulnerabilities alone.
Or are you asking what took me fifteen years to understand?
Dan basically planned the whole thing. When the whole thing was too big, he would break off a piece that wasn't and develop it as a wholly separate thing.
I understood this strategy worked, but I didn't fully understand why this strategy was successful until I realised source code matters more than I thought[1]: If your program is short enough, there won't be any bugs in it. This is why learning how to read and write dense code[2] can make your programs better -- and that's what I learned how to do[3].
[1]: http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm
> and that's what I learned how to do
This is good code?
for(i=b=0;i<r;++i){switch(p[i]){
case'\n':if(!e)e=i;if(!q){q=kpn(p+w,g-w);if('\r'==(cf=p[i-1]))cf=p[i-2];}else if(!c){w=!!strchr("kK1",cf);if(!o)sc(d,0,sd);else if(w){if('g'==o)cwrite(f,OK("200","keep-alive")BLANK);else cwrite(f,OK("204","keep-alive")END204);}else{if('g'==o)cwrite(f,OK("200","close")BLANK);else cwrite(f,OK("204","close")END204);close(f);}a=k(o?-d:d,"dash",knk(2,q,xD(a,v),0),0,0);b=i+1;if(!o){if(!a){poop(f);R 0;}if(10!=a->t){r0(a);poop(f);R 0;}writer(f,kC(a),a->n);r0(a);if(!w)close(f);}if(b==r)R 1;q=0;o=0;a=ktn(11,0),v=ktn(0,0);}else{if((c-m)==10&& !strncasecmp(p+m,"connection",c-m))cf=p[s];js(&a,sn(p+m,c-m));jk(&v,kpn(p+s,e-s));}w=e=g=s=c=0;m=i+1;break;
case' ':case'\t':case'\r':if(w&&!g)g=i;if(s==(e=i))++s;break;
case':':if(!c)s=1+(c=i);break;
case '/':if(!w)w=i+1;case '?':case '&':if(r>=(i+4)&&p[i+1]=='f'&&p[i+2]=='=')o=p[i+3];default: e=0;break;}}if(a)r0(a),r0(v);if(q)r0(q);R b;}Your use of scare quotes is appropriate, because there is a qualitative difference between intelligently-driven and unintelligent attacks. Not to mention the intelligently-driven attacks when the attackers are manifestly more intelligent and skilled than the defenders! If computer security experts didn't have to worry about intelligent attackers, computer security would be very nearly a solved problem.
1. Netscape had a "dns helper" -- which ostensibly could only do DNS lookups, is designed in the principle of least privilege.
2. Ariel Berkman's xloadimage implementation -- which implements every image loader as a separate filter in a separate process who can do nothing but input image data and output image data (in the "common" format), is designed around eliminating trusted code.
The former could (and did) suffer a bug that affected DNS lookups, and was convinced to perform all sorts of network traffic since, it by definition needed to perform network activity to do it's function, and it could access files like resolv.conf because again, it needed to do that to perform it's function. That it couldn't be exploited to "yield root" wasn't really relevant, since most people didn't run Netscape as root. It could read user files and ship them over the Internet which is frankly bad enough.
The latter, is what DJB is recommending.
WRT the house analogy, it's easy to extend that to "intelligent" attackers: intruders of any kind, e.g. robbers, animals, etc. Many install security cams, in my city (Istanbul) many condos have railings that protect the windows of the lower flats, we have locks on doors, alarms, barbed wires, safes, body guards, guard dogs etc., all to stop the intelligent attackers to actually using their intelligence. What's analogous in programming is using the best practices available, and the use thereof must be imposed on any critical systems (e.g. banks, medical institutions, communications tools [e.g. social media] etc.) by the governing bodies.
While true that accounts for a large amount of the problem, probably the clear majority, computer security would remain a problem even if developers were uniformly highly competent. Competent use of existing crypto systems, which are broken three or four years later, would still be a problem. Meltdown and spectre would still be a problem. Building a safe execution sandbox is legitimately difficult.
But it would be a qualitatively different world than the one we live in.
Certification solutions to the software problem generally face the problem that it is very difficult to imagine any scenario other than one in which people grotesquely incompetent to write the certification rules are the ones writing them. We do not, for instance, want our certification authority to sit there and mandate waterfall design processes, which I would consider at least a 25%-probable outcome, and that's awfully large for something as catastrophic as that would be.
"WRT the house analogy, it's easy to extend that to "intelligent" attackers: intruders of any kind, e.g. robbers, animals, etc."
No, houses are never under such intelligent attack. Even when attacked by humans, they are not attacked by ninja stealth thieves who go in, photocopy your SS card, and get out again without leaving a trace or something that sounds absurd to even use as an example. There's no physical equivalent to breaking into millions of houses at a time and making off with such data. They're attacked by people who smash through the physical security. Anybody can do it. "Anybody" is who does it... above-average IQ people are not generally breaking into houses. (Above-average IQ criminals find much more lucrative and safe criminal hobbies.) Not just anybody can put a tap on a fiber optic line, feed it to a high speed data center, and process it in real time to extract out terrorism threat info, or even just exploit an XSS vulnerability on a website.
My opinion is that if you design your software securely threat modeling should result in the decision of implementing the least privilege principle and whether it makes sense and benefits (complexity vs benefit) or not. Of course you better eliminate trusted code so that there are less case where you have to get to these decisions. I assume that soon or later, there are situation, where you can't eliminate trusted code and it makes sense to implement least privilege.
Okay, but that's not what DJB means, and attempting to read his words with the definitions in your head, instead of the definitions in his head won't help you understand him.
I'm not going to humour an argument about mere semantics: For the purposes of this discussion they are not both the "principle of least privilege".
> So what would have helped in Netscapes case?
Writing the DNS client correctly.
DJB's point is that absolutely nothing else would help: You can't realistically put a box around buggy code as long as the code needs privileges.
And all that effort in writing that sandbox? A waste of time; fundamentally the wrong thing to focus on. Writing a DNS client is far less work.
> I assume that soon or later, there are situation, where you can't eliminate trusted code and it makes sense to implement least privilege.
That was what DJB assumed when he wrote Qmail, however he is now convinced that was wrong. His paper gives some explanation why.
If you can't eliminate trusted code, and it's still big enough you think there might be bugs hiding inside, you should rethink your design.
DJB isn't advocating against using seccomp or a pledge-equivalent.
DJB is advocating against stopping there.
> I have become convinced that this “principle of least privilege” is fundamentally wrong. Minimizing privilege might reduce the damage done by some security holes but almost never fixes the holes. Minimizing privilege is not the same as minimizing the amount of trusted code, does not have the same benefits as minimizing the amount of trusted code, and does not move us any closer to a secure computer system.
By "does not move us any closer" I don't believe he wants us to do it at all.
Then take a look at § 5.1 of the paper which gives a clearer example with which to draw the distinction.
Eliminating trusted code is what you're doing by decorating uncompress with pledge() with any capability to acquire resources; anything beyond stdio (or seccomp)
Minimizing privilege means focusing on finding some other argument for pledge().
So many of the great (financial) success stories of our sector are about startups stumbling into an untapped demand, and then running with it for as long as the money lasts. Nobody sets out to build a bridge – they build a 2x4 plank, and then realize that rather a lot of people want to walk on it.
That's a difference between contractors, people, groups, teams, projects, etc. It has nothing to do with the "disciple of engineering" software or otherwise.
I've seen shitty mechanical engineering projects, but hey, it was cheap, so I don't blame the customer! (We're fighting the shit someone churned out from the software side.)
No one expects to go to a mechanical engineer and ask for a new car, 4 wheels, blue color, 200 horsepower, and a week later "could you just make it 8 wheeled, thanks" and a week later "could you also make it so it'll be fast even when run on a mix of vomit and vodka", and so on, yet it's the norm in software.
And we somehow compare it to bridges, because a lot of software is "critical infrastructure".
Put the two together, and it's no surprise it seems that software engineering is not mature enough.
It simply means some kid (or a team of expensive consultants), who knew nothing about long term risks of the combination of attention fatigue and shitty UX, said yes. Lowest bidder and all that too. Or because this was mission critical it never occurred to the procurers that a UX guy/gal should look at it.
I mean the problem in other fields were solved by a brutal trade off toward a draconian prohibition. You can't practice medicine/law/civil-engineering without a license in a lot of states/countries.
But of course you can give CPR, you can help your relatives sort out their pills. You can talk about laws/statutes/regulations with anyone.
So where would we draw the line? Maybe official/public procurement projects must have a process requirement clause, describing good engineering discipline (clear problem statement, analysis of the problem, analysis of aspects by the relevant domain experts [such as UI/UX, security, network, hardware, etc.], general specification, implementation plan with risks identified and testing methodology outlined, used development methodology [SCRUM, KanBan, whatever])?
This doesn't require setting up big and bureaucratic a trade guild, but if something bad happens we can look at the [pre]filed papers and determine who fucked up. The procurers, the experts, or the dev team.
It's not necessary to attack the rest of the app as soon as user's security requirements are violated. So if an attacker had been able to have an impact on confidentiality, integrity or availability because of your masquerading patch, user's requirements would have been broken. For an impact on availability controlling control flow isn't necessary, you just need to crash components.
My point was that with a default of secure design, even small exploits added via plugins are better defended against than my alternative option, which was sendmail (i'm sure Exim wouldn't have been quite as horrible as sendmail, and Postfix wasn't quite mature yet).
So I know quite well what kind of maintenance is needed. We replaced the entire 6000sqm tiled roof last year, it was the original roof, 80 years old.
The maintenance needed on a brick building is fraction of what's needed on a wood building.