Ask HN: Engineers, what is your opinion on Oak Ridge National Laboratory?

10 points by jpiburn 8 years ago | 14 comments

I am a research data scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL) and I am trying to get some insights into what the level of awareness/perception that the software engineering community has about ORNL and the national lab system in general. Particularly when it comes to applying for jobs.

The national labs are well known within the science community, through post-docs and the standard academic channels, but it seems to me that when it comes to software engineering that awareness (or interest?) is much lower (with possible exception in HPC). This difference manifests itself in the hiring process. For research-based science positions there are tons of qualified applicants, however for software engineering openings, it’s a struggle to get even a hand full of reasonably qualified people to apply.

What I am trying to figure out, is why that is the case?

We do a ton of cool, globally impactful work using all the latest technologies and have thousands of smart people from all over the world (~5,000 employees). In a blind resume, I would think ORNL would be somewhat of an attractive place for a software engineer to work.

I would love to get everyone's thoughts/experiences on this. Some prompting questions I have, feel free to answer all or none…

If you have ever thought about applying to software engineering position at ORNL (or another national lab) and didn’t apply, what was your reasoning? Have you even heard of ORNL? Or know where it is? Did you know that ORNL hires non-research track software engineers that don't have to write research papers? Did you know that ORNL's computing and engineering positions aren't limited to just Super Computing (Titan/Summit)? Did you know that ORNL builds and deploys software to partner platforms? Did you know that the national labs are not on the GS pay scale? Did you know that ORNL encourages and rewards developing and releasing open source software?

Any feedback would be helpful.

Thanks!

FiatLuxDave 8 years ago |

Physicist here, so of course I've heard of ORNL, as well as been there. I did not know that ORNL was not on the GS pay scale, which is interesting.

I think you may get more responses if you change your headline to something like "Ask HN: Software Engineers, your opinion of Oak Ridge NL?". The software folks may not be aware that you are asking them. You could possibly even call them developers, but I'm not sure which crowd you are aiming for.

jpiburn 8 years ago | |

Very good point. I may wait a view days and try again with your title suggestion. I originally had "Ask HN: Software Engineers..." but I ran out of room.

Thank you for your feedback

Sevii 8 years ago |

I have never heard of ORNL. In general I would assume national labs are low paying and run by PHD researchers, so less upward mobility with my BS. I would rather make more money in an engineering led company. And I personally try to avoid companies with more than 200 employees, since they tend to have too much bureaucracy.

jpiburn 8 years ago | |

The salaries are actually pretty comparable (that's why I mentioned that NLs aren't on the GS scale) no stock options of course but you are correct that PhD researchers run the lab from mid level management on up and traditionally a PhD is expected for upward mobility. I can see where that would potentially be a concern from your perspective.

Thanks for your reply.

cimmanom 8 years ago | |

Seconded on every point.

matt_the_bass 8 years ago |

Thanks for posting.

I’m curious about job security and tenure. Are there similar amount of layoffs as at commercial enterprises or are almost guaranteed a job once you’re in. Are most people there “lifers” or only there a few years.

The answers to these questions might be attractive to certain people.

rajacombinator 8 years ago |

Rough impression: “national lab” type places are largely career dead ends that are suitable for post docs and other academic types. Non tenure track engineers will be treated as third class slave labor, likely poorly paid relative to industry. Non transferable skill set development, work on non interesting non impactful stuff. Maybe unfair but basically accurate.

jetti 8 years ago |

I have heard of ORNL but couldn't tell you were it was located without looking it up. That said, I'm really glad you posted this as I always thought that national labs were on GS pay scale and tried to avoid them. I've been teetering with applying to Argonne or FermiLab but was afraid of taking a big pay cut. I'll have to look in to that more.

eshvk 8 years ago |

One thing I have observed is that engineering roles at national labs tend to have a lot of paperwork needed for an interview. I can understand a faculty role requiring recommendation letters, a long application form to fill up but an engineering role requiring all that makes it rather annoying.

Not sure if Oak Ridge does this tho. :)

jpiburn 8 years ago | |

In my experience that is probably a true statement. Typically the application process is a little verbose, but I think ORNL isn't the worst of them. Combine that with the inhumane SAP interface and I can see where a lot of people wouldn't even bother.

Thanks for the feedback!

badpun 8 years ago |

Is there any possibility to apply as a foreigner who currently resides outside US (as one can do with H-1B or other visas in the commercial world)?

jpiburn 8 years ago |

Also I was ran out of room in the original post, but wanted to add even just commenting, "I've never heard of ORNL" is probably the most insightful of all :)

eip 8 years ago |

The "View open positions" link on the ORNL site takes me to a blank page.

jpiburn 8 years ago | |

If it did work for you, it would be even worse. It's a brutalist SAP interface that would scare away anyone with a hint of creativity