I suppose people in some EU countries, for example, which have mostly (?) transitioned to a cashless society don't mind what a massive invasion of privacy it is.
On the other hand, I do understand the advantages, the convenience, and perhaps the inevitability of going cashless. Already most of our financial transactions are being tracked and circulated ("peddled") in countless ways, as are our online activity, phone conversations, real-time location.. At this rate, future humans will look back at our concept of "privacy" and not comprehend what it means.
For social media, it's irritating but the ability to stop you from collecting or spending "your" money is terrifying because it could be applied by policy or accident and the result is the same. No one should have that power.
It would be royally foolish to phase out cash for small transactions. The option needs to be there.
Anecdote: My local trains have cashless ticket machines inside (machines on bus/trams are still cash/card). Every day I see people suprised and asking someone - "Can you buy a ticket for me with card and I give you 1,5€ in cash?".
I have been to several businesses abroad, including gas stations and movie theaters, where international credit cards are not accepted -- ie, their POS device will accept Visa but only if the card is domiciled in the same country.
I view a cashless society as an economy that discriminates against poor people and foreigners.
Coin tumblers exist for all these currencies. But these a) cost a small fee, and b) are back to centralization, requiring you to trust the tumbler maintainers not to record the transactions.
ZCash[1] is the only cryptocurrency I know of which attempts to actually be private, but the unpopularity of ZCash relative to Bitcoin/Bitcoin Cash/Litecoin/Ethereum shows that most people involved in cryptocurrencies actually don't care about privacy.
[1] https://z.cash/
However I think the state already has an absurd amount of power and the citizens need every tool possible to prevent governments from hurting them. Anonymous transactions, such as those using cash but also using new technologies like privacy-focused cryptocurrencies, are essential to keeping the state from becoming a panopticon. You can already see the inevitable outcome of all-powerful government with the ridiculous situation in Hong Kong and the social credit system in China.
So, what we really need are anonymous physical tokens whose value can change over time. Easy solution is to just tale the current bills and say that after one year, unless deposited to bank before that, are worth only 90% of the face value. But with current technological capabilities, and if someone would actually be interested, we should be able to come up with way better solutions. Solutions that actually make it easier to pay with these anonymous tokens than current cash.
[1] I know. This is far from intuitive to accept. It took me literally months to accept that negative rates make any sense after the first negative yields popped up. To help you understand, let's say I have a fresh apple and you want to have an apple today. In the textbook case I am willing to give it to you today, if you give me tomorrow two apples, because I prefer also to have an apple today compared to having ot tomorrow. This is fine, but what about me having a big basket of apples about to rot, and willing to have also some apples in the winter? There is no law of nature saying that there should be someone willing to give me more apples next winter if I give them to him today. In this case it is easy to see that a negative interest should apply to lending of apples. And it should be economics 101 to understand that artificially limiting prices will often cause welfare losses.
Quite ironic ;-p
But the easiest one is that if you belong to those who believe that central banks actually have a useful role in managing the economy, then why restrict artificially the main tools central banks have in their disposal, i.e. interest rates?
If you are not even allowed to do things in cash (and to be honest, it's pretty close to that in Finland already), you would also need to disallow banks from blocking transactions that are not breaking local laws. Otherwise in the worst case you are making it so that foreign governments have power to force people to commit crimes (like being unable to pay taxes since bank refuses to move the money).
How are people supposed to transact in an emergency without cash? Say if there's an earthquake, the power/internet goes down, etc.?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmXDJpYF46E&fbclid=IwAR3tBKD...
The reason for this is that we might need cash in an emergency.
Sources (for those who master Norwegian) : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%C3%B8ystein+olsen+kontanter&t=fpa...
Wouldn't a constitutional change only be limited to paying for gov fines, fees, and taxes with cash?
> Following a recent EU directive, Austrian banks are phasing out “ATM cards” and renaming them debit cards. And some banks are currently planning to equip the new debit cards with the ability to make payments online, as is common elsewhere.
I'm confused do they mean they are just getting the ability to pay with debit cards at stores in 2019? Or is this just adding the VISA part to debit cards?
Nobody knows because there are no real proposals, it's all just a PR stunt. It's vaguely hinted that shops would be forced to keep accepting cash. But the government presumably does not want people to pay their taxes with cash. I don't even think that's possible currently.
https://www.ubs.com/ch/en/help/debitcard/difference.html
(The "online" row lists "N.A.")
I still have a Visa debit card linked to an account elsewhere, but 90% of my online shopping is now paid for with Sofort, a direct bank transfer, or even on credit. E.g. Bergfreund (https://www.bergfreunde.eu/) offers 10 day payment terms for online transactions.
Presumably their "bank cards" only use some local payment scheme rather than visa or MasterCard (explaining why it can't be used online)
The newer "debit card" uses Visa or MasterCard which means it is accepted anywhere Visa/MasterCard is
The EU has quietly taken away what I consider to be a fundamental human rights over the past 10 years (the right to buy something without the whole world knowing what that was), and no one noticed.
Did you know you can't buy a car cash in most EU countries?
[EDIT]: This is issue is nowhere on the political radar of most USians because it hasn't come to your shores. But it should, because it's coming.
How was this the EU and not the convenience of card payments? Is there an EU regulation making us use less cash?
https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/eu...
Sounds absurd? Sounds like too much? It's the only way to keep those tyrannical maniacs in check.
When I pay by card, banks and Visa/Mastercard get a cut of my purchase, which the merchant doesn't get (and I don't think they are allowed to pass on these fees to the consumer). When I pay by cash, the merchant gets 100%. I usually prefer to give my money to a local shop rather than to financial middlemen.
I remember the cost was less than credit cards take, but not much lower than Girocard payments.
Not really, basic payment accounts are backed by quite a few legislations with pretty strict exceptions (i.e. money laundering or terrorism financing in the EU wide case):
EU (since 2014): https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr...
Germany (over a century): https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https:/...
The anonymity of cash is nice, but the lack of discrimination of cash is its real feature.
In India, only pathetic (<10-20%) percentage of people pay direct tax, what remains after corrupt bureaucrats take their share is what spent on development of the country.
It's no brainer on why cash transactions is the preferred mode for the corrupt. Cash-less electronic transactions, fool-proof audit backed by tech like blockchain seems like only option left to curb this menace and save the country.
As far as privacy is concerned, due to the loop-hole in the law, any citizen's bank account can be accessed by the authorities at any time; so cash-less transactions isn't going to change much here. Corrupt, don't use the bank accounts to store their stash anyways, at-least within the country.
But India is not ready for cash-less transaction anytime soon, as evident from the demonetisation of 2016 in which promoting cash-less transaction was one of the main arguments.
So I am bit a lost on how this protects privacy. Is this only important in context of services such as legal prostitution, drug use etc where having cash transaction will feel safer? If that is the case, I am sure those businesses will continue to operate in cash-ful manner. If there are other use cases, please do share.
As an aside Austria is the first country I came across where the immigration website uses phrase "third country workers"[1], which is mildly disappointing to see.
That would be my problem with cashless, the idea that people could be cut off entirely from the system and have no way to transact. Until the government / central bank will issue everyone a irrevocable bank account with the right to transact for free indefinitely getting rid of cash has bigger issues than just privacy implications.
Well, a big argument for cash is that it allows you to do illegal transactions as well, and that this is extremely important, because who decides what is illegal and not? Making all illegal transactions impossible is a great way to stop civil disobedience, to stop dissenting movements, to stop anything the current regime simply doesn't like.
But those are the things driving our society forward.
After each improvement the devs prove the security of the protocol and present it in a cryptography conference, asking for peer reviews, that's why it's moving so slowly (which is great).
How is it ridiculous? I can't think of any government, except maybe Canada, that would just allow a part of their country to secede, especially if the movement to do so was explicitly backed and funded by a foreign power (in the case of HK, the same foreign power that used to occupy that part of the country).
> just allow a part of their country to secede
Organized HK protestors have a list of five demands and none of them involve secession. The only demand that involves a constitutional-level change is the demand for universal suffrage in HK to the HK government. They are not asking for any expansion of the powers of the HK govt.
> especially if the movement to do so was explicitly backed and funded by a foreign power (in the case of HK, the same foreign power that used to occupy that part of the country).
It is news to me that the UK govt. is expressing support for the aims of the movement beyond emphasizing their generic right to protest. Do you have a source?
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_(debit_card)
That reads (my rough translation): (1) [The ECB and other central banks emit Euro bank notes.] (2) The bank notes referred to in (1) must be accepted at their full face value without limits, unless the obligation must be paid using some other means of payment.
IANAL, but to me this means like (a) there is already a law in Austria obliging businesses to always accept cash, except that (b) this might be meaningless since a business could always stipulate that "the obligation must be paid using some other means of payment".
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...
As I understand it, the former is implementing some international agreement where EU member states chose to use the EU as the mechanism to implement the agreement. The later seems to be the EU gold plating that (e.g. limiting anonymous electronic payments to €50).
And while Bitcoin is written to a public ledger, there is a key difference in that you only see “this address sent money to this address.”
That’s still fairly public and you might not want that. But unlike a bank there is nothing linking those addresses to any individual, no name, address and phone number is associated. Plus you can receive funds to a different address every time, so you don’t have to use the same one for each transaction.
It doesn’t mean it’s not public but just to put it in context.
The main issue with crypto is the confirmation time, but 0-conf is probably acceptable in the same way contactless is for small things.
I'll look into that. At first glance some of the privacy claims seem a bit strange, but I haven't looked at the proofs enough to be sure.
> That’s still fairly public and you might not want that. But unlike a bank there is nothing linking those addresses to any individual, no name, address and phone number is associated. Plus you can receive funds to a different address every time, so you don’t have to use the same one for each transaction.
Okay, but trivially this allows you to trace transactions back to institutions (i.e. Coinbase) which are tied into the traditional banking system just like banks--unless you put your coins through a tumbler, coins purchased from an exchange are exactly as private as traditional currency at a bank. Arguably less private, since coin exchanges are under more scrutiny right now than banks.
And unlike banks, if you expose a receiving address for transactions tied to your name, you're exposing every transaction you receive. You're depending on pseudonymity for anonymity, which doesn't work if the only reason you're receiving coins in the first place is a reputation tied to your name. And if a pseudonym can build up enough reputation to receive coins (i.e. Dread Pirate Roberts) then all you have to do to break the anonymity is to tie the pseudonym to the person (we know all the transactions received by Ross Ulbricht because they were received pseudonymously not anonymously, so knowing Dread Pirate Roberts = Ross Ulbricht tells us all the transactions Ross Ulbricht received). In short, pseudonymity is not anonymity.
> The main issue with crypto is the confirmation time, but 0-conf is probably acceptable in the same way contactless is for small things.
There isn't a single "main issue" with crypto--it just has properties, and people only have issues with it if they use crypto for purposes where those properties are unsuitable. If you use Bitcoin for anonymity, your main issue is that Bitcoin isn't anonymous, but that's your main issue, not the main issue with Bitcoin.
I personally have never used cryptocurrency for anything where I cared about waiting for 6 confirmations.
The merchant is not going to have any access to that money whatsoever until/unless connectivity is restored. They can't pay their suppliers or employees with that money while they're offline.
It's pretty much the digital equivalent of scribbling "Bob authorised to pay me $12.34" on a notebook that you're going to bring to the bank afterwards.
Try asking a computer in court what it was thinking when it ran the algorithm.
Given that, at least in the US, people had to regularly sue corporations that defend the secrecy of their fancy algorithms^W^W Excel sheets as trade secrets... that's not as obvious as you might think.
And yes, I understand that "the economy" might want me to spend money now on crap that I would not prefer to buy right now. I just don't agree that that is a valid reason to legalize stealing from me.
1. We talk about nominal values, not real purchase power. You should not care what is the number on your bank account but how many apples you can buy it. And with that measure, banks have been "stealing" your purchase power almost always. (Actually I think it is impossible in the long term to have banks pay more than inflation rate)
2. Assuming you save 100 dollars and expect to have 101 dollars in one year's time, central bank can decide to lower the interest rates so that you have less than 101 dollars one year later. Why would central bank "taking" from your 101 to 100 be any less stealing than from 100 to 99?
3. Finally, you agreeing to lend your money to the bank with whatever interest rate bank offers is completely voluntary action from your side. Not only you can choose to consume the money immediately, there are also practically limitless other opportunities to invest (or "invest"...) your money. Corporate debt, real estate, equity, cryptocurrency, gold, commodities etc. Now, of course, you can argue that these other options are somehow less practical or more risky in certain ways, and that society needs to keep your hand and guarantee you a risk-free and practical way to move your consumption decisions over time. And that society needs to make this guarantee to you completely regardless of the welfare cost (unemployment, recessions etc) delivering this guarantee has. At this point, my nose is starting to detect the repulsive smell of socialism, totalitarianism or something like that...
2. If I have a contract saying I will get that extra dollar, I absolutely expect to get it and will take the bank to court if I don't. If I only hope for that, it's different. But in any case, my contract is with my bank, not the central bank.
3. It's not voluntary if cash is effectively useless and I must use a bank.
The rest of your post is just bizarre. Standing up for property rights isn't socialist. I don't think this thread is going anywhere, so I'm out. I hope you have a great day.
Of course, we are not talking about hyperinflation in Austria. Something that forced Zimbabwe to take a momentous decision. Why would the US Federal Reserve consider the interest of Austrians - in this fantasy scenario where they go cashless, and people start using USD - when valuing their currency?
I mean, if cash transactions are in different currency than that of your local jurisdiction, then - for a lot of people - it would start to make sense to simply keep their bank accounts in the same currency (and private banks would surely offer this). This could have an effect on people who doesn't use cash at all, since they would at times deal with people who do sometimes. And then having their money in that foreign currency too is an advantage.
Of course, I am only speculating. Since we have no experience with what happens if a society abandons cash, it will be hard to tell what the broader effects of that will be. Could be a total loss of monetary control for the government, or merely an inconvenience for foreign tourists.
On the other hand everybody here has a bank account for free, and free instant transactions between individuals.
How far are you willing to go the other way? If the police knew where every single citizen was 100% of the time, crime rates would plummet! Super easy, fit everyone with a gps anklet, and make it punishable with jailtime for anyone who tampers with them or removes them. Tadaa!
It's a balance between fascism and liberty, between control and freedom. Removing cash moves that balance too far in the wrong direction, which is why we should oppose it, if we want a free society.
(possible) != (as easy as possible)
The claim is that making illegal transactions impossible would cause societal harm.
I agree that it's an amusing idea, but it's also extremely important and not much talked about. Bruce Schneier touched on it in a 2018 essay (https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2018/11/surveillanc...).
> All social progress—from ending slavery to fighting for women's rights—began as ideas that were, quite literally, dangerous to assert.
Wikileaks ran into trouble when all the major credit card companies decided to deny payments to them.
Cash ensures that all transactions are allowed, anonymous, and untraceable, no matter the nature of the transaction, no matter society's morals, and no matter who's currently in charge of government.
I don't think there are any crypto implementations today that could compete with existing mainstream systems, which in itself is a statement that opens a can of worms on HN, but maybe someday.
Dispute handling and chargebacks are also very disputable for wire transfers. I have to give my ID to the bank every few years, yet people get scammed with wire transfers all the time and get a "sorry can't do anything about your lost money" from the bank.
It's not instant. According to https://www.crypto51.app/ the cost to 51% attack ethereum for 1 hour is $92k. This means it's $2.2 million for one day or 24 hours. Let's say you want to transfer $10 million via ethereum. Then the party who gives you the eth can perform a double spending attack, only pretending to give you the $10 million while getting something else from you in exchange as part of the original deal that takes one day to be transfferred to them. As long as that something else is worth more than $2.2 million, that other party has made a return. The only good remedy is waiting for the double spending cost to exceed the contract volume, but it means that the currency isn't instant any more, or at least is instant for small sums of money only.
Bitcoin requires a validation cycle or two in order to be certain that your transaction is going to be on the main chain, so it's 10-20 minutes.
For traditional infrastructure, the RTGS (real time gross settlement systems) accessible to banks and large customers handle transactions in seconds. If you're in a treasury department of a company who routinely needs to move large amounts around, doing so nearly instantaneously is absolutely a solved problem.
Also crypto isn't instant. Bitcoin takes 10 minutes if you're lucky, even longer if the network is maxed at 7 transactions a second (comparatively, Visa handles 42,000 transactions a second).
Cash does not provide dispute handling, chargebacks or any of those other things either.
https://blog.qtum.org/how-proof-of-stake-renders-a-51-attack...
I'm going to sell my car on Sunday to another private person. I will hand over the documents and keys, while he instantly wire transfers me 20k.
Now all of a sudden it's not a solved problem anymore is it?
And Bitcoin, please, that's old tech. There are way more advanced cryptocurrencies now that have high TPS and < 10 sec validation.
If you have your debit card stolen and someone spends $10K of your money, you (an individual!) get that money back.
I'm very much pro-cryptocurrency, but I don't think it does anyone any favors to pretend there are no benefits to traditional banking.
Many other coins have the capability to support orders of magnitude more transactions per second and have been successfully demonstrated to do so.
In theory, with 10GB blocks or so, it could scale to Visa-levels although I’m not sure anyone has tested at that scale.
Most people would agree that not allowing criminals to enjoy the spoils of their crime is a good thing.
If you think that your taxes are too high, and would like to be a law abiding citizen, you've got options:
ballot box (you might need your own party)
move to a different country
Less money laundering would mean that you could either get more gov't services or lower taxes.
Requirements basically boil down to acceptable ID
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-6367319/C...
This whole situation is happening because cash is very flexible and we innovated away from it when it became a bad idea. At any stage over the next few decades the basic nature of the playing field could change and this 'right to have a bank account' could totally stomp out innovation.
Not to mention; if at any point now or in the future a loophole slips in to the legislative process consumers could get roasted.
This is a poor solution to a non-problem. Just let people transact in cash.
[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/elaineramirez/2016/11/30/south-...
Being legally required to hold a bank account use cashless transactions is just as much of a violation of one's rights as being barred from opening a bank account and being forced to use cash for all transactions. Two sides of the same coin, so to speak. It's not about allowing people to transact in cash, but allowing them alternative choices, all of which should be legal.
If you can't hold a bank account (because the banks have decided you're not allowed one for whatever reason), you need to use cash for everything. This means you always have a relatively large amount of cash on you. Not only are you now at greater risk of burglary or robbery, the consequences of being a victim are now even greater. You also can't put money in a savings account, or pay for things online.
I've had my house burgled and had large amounts of cash stolen from me before. There was nothing the police could do. Even if they caught the burglar, the money wasn't coming back to me. It was a significant hit to my personal finances at the time.
Bank accounts and cashless transactions aren't just a way for the government to keep tabs on the population, they're also a form of security for the general population.
I suppose if they're just freely distributed from a vending machine, it just becomes plastic bills of arbitrary denomination.
If someone needs banking services (or, really, any services from anyone) but don't have a proper gov't ID document then would be considered normal to require that the very first thing they'd need to do is to get/replace that ID. And if you have that, then that's all you need for basic banking services.
Getting such a thing requires a bank account or at least cash. How do you get cash if you don't have an ID? You can't get a bank account, so you can't collect unemployment benefits.
[0] https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/JudikaturEntscheidung.wxe?Abfrage=...
You haven't actually proposed a solution. Who should control the supply of money? Private companies? Because they have an even worse track record to governments.
Neither controlled by govts nor by corporations.
I thought this was self-evident, my bad, I guess.
I remember when my wife first moved to this country, it was extremely difficult for her to open a current account, I thought that the basic accounts would solve those problems and probably do.
They clearly don't solve all problems.
It is a bit odd though that this is the case as surely allowing people to use the accounts allow for the transactions to be traced, rather than the anonymity of cash.
Quite possibly there are good reasons, for the bank but on 5 hours of sleep so I can't come up with any :)
You're right that the Know Your Customer regs make it very hard for some people to open an account.