Relatively sound advice is that whenever someone advertises to run the government 'like a business', the outcome is going to be 90% disappointing and hot air.
This is essentially just a huge PR campaign, the electronic voting is a security disaster, and if you see a government official talk about putting things 'on the blockchain' just run.
It is a blockchain in the only way that makes sense: a cryptographically secure ledger run by a central authority (government).
https://www.zdnet.com/article/estonias-id-card-scrisis-how-e...
The timeline may also match the hack the GCHQ and NSA did against the Estonian e-ID provider, Gemalto:
https://theintercept.com/2015/02/19/great-sim-heist/
So remember that even with hardware tokens used in electronic voting, which are supposed to be much more secure than using other forms of authentication, you still run the risk of having the election compromised, especially since an election is something important enough that more than one major country could be interested in manipulating at any given time.
It's not like the "well, I'm nobody, so why would the NSA/other spy agency target me?!" situation at all. We're talking about the decision of who gets to run a whole country, and sophisticated adversaries will be very interested in influencing that if it can serve their interests.
We know China hacks tons of countries, we know Russia has been meddling with all sorts of elections lately, and we also know that for the past 70 years the USA has interfered in about one election per year, on average. This is not just theoretical stuff that would never happen. And I'm sure there are many Middle-Eastern and other Asian countries interested in influencing their rivals' elections, too.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/americas-long-histor...
I have faith in the Estonian system once they make e-voting completely transparent (which is something they're working on, but it's not there yet)
This is a good example of why these PR campaigns are silly.
And, after four years, I have reopened my company in UK and trying to liquidate my Estonian one (today I have received a denial letter which says that only Estonian citizen can close my company)..
In short: Vague frequently changing rules, introduction of strange complex regulations over time (e.g. contact person, management board member tax which is kinda avoidable or not at the same time - "Schrodinger tax").. Expensive business services and accountants (yes, US and UK are cheaper!), volatile tax rules interpretations.. Lack of googlable good information overall, and local accountants are not that hi level pros in nomadic IT matters at all. Also totally non-cooperative Estonian banks.
Upon all of that, UK manages doing everything without fragile e-card, which, honestly, adds more anxiety over access loss instead of benefits. Has TONS AND TONS of proper official information with tutorials. Generations of good accountants and stable business and tax regulations.
Edit: perhaps calling it a scam is inappropriate. It just doesn't seem like the program offers anything new over what other countries offer. I guess the nice thing is that it tries to be a package deal that's easier to market and find information about.
Like with those nasty surprises when in reality you need to "know" some Estonian to start and stop a company.
I'm not too familiar with the e-residence in Estonia but I'm not surprised that a country of 1.3M people that fairly recently escaped from underneath the iron curtain doesn't have the resources of the big EU countries who have had centuries of financial power. I'll say starting a business in the US was 100x easier than the EU countries I've stayed in.
BTW have started a company in US also - can confirm that was also easy. But one needs to have a bank account in US, and US banks are not remote friendly, after opening an account too (I had an accident with account locking, lots of grey hair from nothing). I know Stripe Atlas makes this easier now.
Also my experience in UK proves it is not exactly a EU - much easier too. And GOV.UK is something extraordinary.
so in order to close your company, you need some citizen to acquire it first?
At they same time they have allowed me to appoint myself first through that form and kept me waiting 5 days.. (The e-resident system is supposed to know who am I, right?) Go figure.
Just a business address can be easily 5x of what one has to pay in US or EU, and this is given Estonian govt really doesn't send you any letters there, in UK and US does.
BTW just learned company closure takes months and 400-1600 EUR, depending on whom you ask..
I'm a EU resident and I have heard there is no way to open a business bank account in the UK without living there (i.e. without NI number + rent contract + utility bills).
If anyone has any info on how to run a UK company with a local bank account (not with an Internet bank) without being a UK resident, I'm all ears.
As for Estonia, de facto e-residents have to open accounts in internet and non Estonian banks too.
It was surprising how the country behind so much technology innovation was so bad at using it. It was noticeable both in the private and public sector.
It was something that I was later reminded of when reading guns, germs and steel. The author Jared Diamond remarked that the technological progress of any society is not primarily decided by your ability to innovate but by your ability to adopt and use the inventions of others. As he remarks, most innovation happens outside your own country, so it is the ability to learn from others which matters most.
A thing I think people should be aware of when obsessing about having the most cutting edge researchers rather than a technology literate population.
OTOH, the issue with USA is the conflict of interest between the public and private sector. Turbotax is a prime example.
What today is Germany used to be about 100 separate nations until 1871, and a still somewhat loose federation until 1918. I think the mentality from that time is still pervasive today in many areas, particularly in bureaucracy.
Add to that that Germany is large enough to make the other EU countries play by its rules most of the time. That removes incentive to overcome nonsensical idiosyncrasies. Estonia is under a lot more pressure here because they cannot win by weight alone.
Tech companies have many problems that I don't want see in a Government:
- Security breaches (and just like every other tech company Bulgaria recently had a dump of the personal data of 5 million citizens)
- Privacy issues, like contractors listening in on sounds recorded by their devices
- tons of intrusive ads
- discrinatory pricing
- products people rely on being killed off for no reason
- hype-, and resume-driven development
- general lack of accountability, masked with trendy but misunderstood methodologies like Agile, Scrum
- move fast and break things works for Facebook, but not for health insurance software
Tech companies fail all the time, but the pieces are picked up by investors, yet governments cannot afford to fail in the same way.
Finnish entrepreneurs are being denied bank accounts despite the close ties of the two countries: https://www.hs.fi/talous/art-2000006279056.html (Article in Finnish only, sorry)
The background for this change is a huge money laundering scandal where Estonian banks took in Russian money over decades with very few questions asked... It sucks that "little guy" startup founders are the ones getting excluded, but that's how it goes.
0: https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTyOboVluxA
It's interesting how the East of europe seems to have similar aspirations. Growing, poor or former poor countries (Estonia, latvia, Romania, bulgaria, cyprus, malta) are bullish on using the EU status to attract foreign investors and enable entrepreneurship, including lowering their taxes, while the west of EU seems to be doing the exact opposite, sending their entrepreneurs abroad.
BUT: Eastern Europe also has huge drawbacks. In countries like Poland, Hungary, or Bulgaria, your risk of abrupt changes in the law (see above) or simply ignorance of the rule of law, is somewhat elevated compared to France, the US, or Germany.
And while these countries want to attract foreign investors, if you actually want to spend significant time in the country, or hire foreigners to work there, you better make sure your neither dark-skinned nor jewish.
(Opening a business bank account is a lot of pain, so there is still room for improvement)
That was 3 years ago, though. Maybe things have changed?
It sucks being Russian these days because of our warmongering dictator. :-/
Money laundering scandals with Danske Bank and Swedbank have made it more complicated.
But I guess it is still easier than in other countries.
My personal favorite is their wireless PSTN: Take existing NMT technology and give people tabletop terminals that will accommodate ordinary analog phones.
https://www.slideshare.net/DataReportal/digital-2019-indones...
That they (WSJ) published Erdogan's piece is (to me) perplexing, but for completely different reasons.
This one on qz.com seems, at least to me, nothing different from the several "puff" articles we have read in the last few years about the digital "revolution" in Estonia (and e-residency, etc.), but till now they were all or almost all by either enthusiasts/futurists/thintankers or by people directly or indirectly involved in the program at a much lower level than the President.
Personally I always had the feeling that these pieces are not entirely unlike the good ol' gnome business plan:
1) get digital in Estonia (id, residency, etc.)
2) ?
3) profit
No doubts that there may be a number of non-Estonians that may benefit from the one or the other provisions of the program, but all in all they should be a niche of "digital nomads" and/or "digital only" very small firms.
Or the Mayor of Rome more or less the same relevance as the President of Ireland.
Maybe I am too old fashioned, but I see a president of an independent country, small as it might be, as having a different, higher status than a mayor.
I can only speak from the context of India where many things have indeed moved online, but are not exactly accessible. For one thing, they are essentially restricted to a small class of English speakers - which is expected since the English-speaking elite have a monopoly on education and thus technological literacy. This has meant that all the small shops which are now forced to file GST invoices (3 times a month ?) need to hire touts of some kind to get their work done. There are touts for everything, since very few people have computers or the necessary skills to use them - touts for filling in passport applications, for filling in DL forms etc.... and frankly it's all very frustrating, since you'll have to take a printout of the online application and visit some Indian Babu anyway.
Since "Indians" have been decided by the rulers to be essentially corrupt, it has also meant that there is no escape from the inflexibility of the straightjacket that is the Indian bureaucracy. Classic case of extremely poor people employed as manual labour being denied food rations because their fingerprints don't match that on record, or simply because the cellular data is patchy has quickly been covered by the UIDAI and their cronies in the government.
The language issue also shows up often because, after 70 years of so-called independence, the country has yet to create a unified transliteration scheme to go along with its "destroy all Indian languages" policy... and different transliterations of brahmi (for instance "sri" and "sree" are both the same श्री) often require absurd name-change announcements and numerous "letters" to random officers (and the usual palm greasing) in order to get access to services.
For much of India's "independence" a extractive state run for a handful of elites generally kept away from governance while its elites enjoyed vacations abroad and went to hospitals in Vienna (other than passing insane, unenforceable laws). I'm generally afraid what the deeply rooted colonial mindset will give rise to, now that it has also has access to technology. UIDAI and its sister schemes was and remains a rather scary venture with what appears to be a view of replicating China's draconian policies.
Curious how it compares to Estonia.
Right or wrong, it's not that unexplainable. People leave their cell phone carrier over bad customer service. They buy their things from a different website because of poor service, or go to a different store. It's cheap to change your allegiance to a different brand. It's a lot more expensive to change your allegiance to a different government. Governments in most places in the world have little incentive to improve.
Governments and private companies are both institutions, they just face different incentive structures. Governments aren't somehow magically protected from the people that run them having incentives.
For those interested in opening an e-business in Estonia, please be mindful that due to the 'Tech Company' way in which the government looks to operate, that there is an increasing rate of change in regulations which can impact your business decisions, although major generic areas such as Corporate and Personal tax rate has trended downwards (around 25% in 2004 and 20% now).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danske_Bank#Danske_Bank_(Finla...
It's interesting but to me Estonia cant quite compete with its neighbors to the point of becoming wealthier than they are now.
Of course NZ is usually ranked as either 1 or 2 on the "ease of doing business" rankings and has low levels of bureaucracy so that might not be typical but I'm also a UK citizen and I renewed my passport from NZ online with no fuss.
https://e-resident.gov.ee/marketplace/service-providers/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/eResidents/
There are no taxes to pay for the yearly profit, which makes it much easier for companies that do plan to reinvest the income over the years or just hold it.
Also, one should probably have employees or customers physically in Estonia, otherwise the company tax residency might change into other jurisdictions.. IANAL.
I'm curious if there are any other EU countries with a similar flexibility (corporate income tax not applied until the "payout event")?
You no longer need physical presence with their e-Residency program.
That said, ofcourse there are things that can be learnt and applied to similar sized towns, cities, states etc that want these features.
Countries aren't their own silo anymore.
A small country that's in Eurozone, EU and NATO has a lot of "big country" benefits than a small country not in those groups.
As an EU citizen, I see Estonian e-residency oriented more towards the people who are from outside the EU and want to establish their presence in the EU market.
For instance, it's one of the easiest ways to get access to Stripe for people from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Serbia, Israel, Turkey, and many countries from other continents.
But it's not such a good option if you operate from other EU country, such as Germany, because your Estonian company will likely be taxed as a local company there.
In any case, I would personally choose Ireland over Estonia because of the absence of language barrier and almost 40% lower corporate tax, or even the UK, where incorporation is not that much harder or more expensive than in Estonia[2], but regulations are much clearer and laws are much more stable.
The taxation system itself is very simple, if VAT isn't involved. You can just enter your annual income and the calculator will tell you all of the numbers. Just make sure you use the "salary/wage fund" as the income field for a freelancer.
One thing to keep in mind though is that countries where you actually perform the work usually want a piece of the pie. That can complicate things significantly.
If I ever do business again within the EU area, I will give Estonia a try. The prospect of an administration set up for working remotely is very attractive to me.
I also agree with you on the tax front; at least with regards to the French authorities. Luckily Australia and the US are much simpler in this regard.
America is very backwards because of one thing that happened to you that has literally never happened to me in the 21+ years I have been an adult here?
How did you even find a human to pay? I have always used a ticket vending machine at SFO.
That's not to say that Germany is less advanced than the US as a whole, but when it comes to consumer-facing software stuff, it feels substantially behind.
Since moving back to the states from China 3 years ago, I’ve gone to the ATM twice, and I no longer have to fumble with a phone to align QR codes. To each their own, I guess.
Very generous to them.
In the UK, the payments system works quite well, but what amazes me is how much physical letters are still a thing: for doctors' appointments with the state-run health system (the NHS), for schools communicating with parents, etc, taking personalized plates on and off a car, ...
Elementary school wants to communicate about some appointment? Do they use the email from us they already have? Haha no, of course they send a letter (that arrives the day of the appointment, natch), and then later call us to complain that we didn't show. And their website looks like it was designed by an intern in 2006, and is virtually never used to communicate useful information throughout the year.
The current elementary school we have does use email...but much of the content they send actually comes in a PDF instead of the email itself, and not the type of with actual text, it's just a bitmap, so to translate we type shit in manually into Deepl (or use OCR for the longer things).
Want to re-up your alditalk account without going to the store? Want to use a credit card, or even Germany-specific debit card? Nope, you tell us your address and we'll send you a letter, which you can then use to authenticate your bank account for transfers. I guess they're worried about...people paying for my phone service on my behalf?
The vast majority of people use BankID, a login system run by a consortium of most banks.
It used to require a cumbersome 2FA device, but for the last 5 years it has also been available as a Sim Toolkit App, so most use that now.
The way it works is pretty cool, you just type your SSN in a login form and immediately a popup window with a word based 2FA appears on your phone.
Seems like less of a hassle to just use your phone than the Estonian system with a physical card reader.
And also the newest is SmartID(used by banks), also based on mobile devices, but without requiring a special SIM card.
The major difference being that an inept government is generally much more visible than an inept company. But as someone that's worked both commercial and government, I've seen enough to make a definitive statement that a lot of companies are incredibly poorly ran. You just don't see it.
Companies can fire people. Countries cannot. Companies are typically not democratically controlled whereas countries should be. Companies are not obligated to meet the basic needs of their employees, protect their rights even if it isn't profitable, defend against foreign adversaries.
Companies have one, very narrow, purpose and efficiency is one property which is induced by that arrangement. States, on the other hand, are human institutions constituted to much broader purpose and scope. I'd actually argue its deeply inhuman to expect efficiency to be a primary property of a state.
The point is that Estonia invested in Internet connectivity penetration, computer literacy for children (and adults too probably), and moved or instituted many/most government services on-line.
The fact that the meeting only takes 40 minutes is just extra injury if you had to travel 6000km to get there.
It feels like the banking system has its own rules and the Estonian government can't do much about it.
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/careers/comp...
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/careers/comp...
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/careers/comp...
But I do think there is real value in it for some people (especially digital nomads) but things like e-Residency running a company remotely definitely aren't going to benefit everyone, building a solution that solves every person's problem is a crazy undertaking
Estonia is sovereign, but whether it’s “independent” from the Eurozone on which it relies for economic sustenance (they get back 5x what they put into the EU budget) and security guarantees and over whose regulations their influence is commensurate to their population is also in the eye of the beholder.
Btw which service did you use to open the company and for accounting in the UK?
In Estonia I have an LHV account, without any problems.
I find it extremely weird that not every other developed country has implemented similar solutions.
It's a win-win for all parties, both the government, business and the population - making interactions and transactions simpler, cheaper and faster.
Until 2 years ago the e-citizenship was good to open a bank account. After major money laundering scandals (probably unrelated to e-citizenship) you cannot only no longer open a bank account as an e-citizen, but even existing ones of e-citizens are getting closed.
A business without a bank account sounds highly limited to me.
That said, I could've used a business account opened in other banks (including outside of Estonia) to do that but I'd be missing out on the convenience that is them having access to the account.
If you want to be intimidated try this, already reduced, chart of the state of implementation of the Onlinezugangsgesetz (OZG).
https://i.imgur.com/BYM6Rnu.png
source: https://www.normenkontrollrat.bund.de/nkr-de/stellungnahmen/...
Seriously here in "DDR" you wait in a line to get a waiting number for starting your real wait. (I'm looking at you zulassungstelle).
Here in Estonia our government systems work efficiently because our data is shared between government departments and ministries in a safe way. There is only one place that stores the addresses of people, there is only one place that has knows about the cars or properties I own and so on. There is a law against asking people who interact with the state for data that it already has.
I find that very interesting. Could you provide a link?
Hmm... France on the contrary comes from an extremely centralised political and cultural model, yet many things (like social security!) and run in a myriad of independent offices compartmented by geographical location (100 départements) and by sub-domain, which do not communicate or share, send the client/citizen to the next one and blame each other for anything.
For a few decades, there has been a move to regionalisation (a pale will to copy German Länder), which make things worse, building another important geographical layer for various things. Depending on the mood of the year, stuff will either depend on departments or regions. Or on the new thing of the 2010's: huge groups of municipalities, almost as large as departments.
But almost all of those get their funding from the state anyway.
If you take minimum welfare for example, it is handled by departments. Why? No idea, it doesn't make any sense. The rules, the amounts are nation-wide. The funding is national: the state gives money to the departments for that task. So you'd think "I should ask the department" for it?". No because the department gives the money it got from the state to the family branch of the social security. Which is nation-wide? Yes, but it is an association of a hundred independent local offices. Each of them being a private law organisation and not public law. While obviously being a public service, which redistributes public funding. Note that in some departments there used to be several different offices for that same role until recently... Of course each department, and each office will develop its own culture of unwritten rules along the years, so the result is you won't be treated equally depending on where you are, whereas the laws are supposed to be the same.
This is all nuts. Sometimes there are historical reasons gone bad. Sometimes it is just some perverse invention.
I mostly gave examples which remain in the same domain. Now just imagine the madness you have to deal with offices from different domains... Also keep in mind while picturing that, that most of the people who work there do not have the smallest interest in having things going smoothly, files closed quickly, job well done and so on; their only happiness comes from bugging customers/citizen or bugging and blaming another service/office; the only way to get something done is to start yelling at them, then miracles happen: in a few minutes (after several months of being bounced here and there for whatever wrong reason) 'lost' files are found, 'necessary' documents are in fact not needed, everything is ready and solved, that's magical. I wish they were corrupted, it would be nicer and easier, but they aren't even. That's just French culture.
I think the reason is that Estonia and Latvia used to be same country - Livonia but I might be wrong.
No :)
Estonian an Livonian are Finno-Ugric. They have a relation to Finnish (but in no way to Scandinavian languages) and Hungarian. This group ist vastly different from any other language in Europe including the Slavic languages. Moreover, Livonian is not to be considered as equivalent to Latvia - Latvian being the official language there.
Try not talk nonsense on HN.
Certainly, a decade or so ago, it was popular to register a limited company in the UK whose physical presence was on the continent. Invariably, this meant dealing with both tax authorities.
It seems to have lost its attractiveness after laws for GmbH and similar were relaxed in various countries. Brexit has pretty much killed any remaining demand, at least for real companies. (As opposed to shell companies for tax evasion or money laundering purposes, for which the UK remains as popular as ever - and which are a major reason for big money backing Brexit, as the EU has been looking to crack down on the practice.)
But yes, Germany is quite slow to adopt new technology.
Well, no. That explains why consumers might pay with cash, but not why businesses would only take cash.
> thriftiness (stores avoiding card payment fees).
This one, yeah makes sense. Although it has less explanatory power for EC cards than credit cards imo. Aren't EC card payment fees quite low?
Plus IIRC studies show people being more willing to spend more with 'plastic' than cash, so it may actually be a false savings for the business.
And it's not like Germany is collectively taking some principled position against digital payments, they're just slower on the adoption curve; it IS still happening. To me this points more to the general conservatism on digital things that you can see elsewhere as well (e.g. uptake of digital books, downloaded vs physical video games, downloaded/streamed music, etc.) rather than something specific to payments themselves.
1. They expensive (like 30euro/months) for what the banks offer for free.
2. No credit cards / Credit lines.
3. No investment accounts (though I'd avoid banks for brokerage).
This is what Delaware managed to do successfully in the US.
And they get access to lots of cheaper labour directly (migration) and indirectly (outsourcing to people that will still buy your stuff).
As I’ve posted, the big banks in the Baltics are primarily not Baltic.
That access has its benefits, but also its price.
I guess I’m a believer that free trade works out well, well enough to create a system to support those left behind. Often the latter is left out however.
Indeed.
Before the eastern expansion I had noticed years ago how portions of Niedersachsen bordering East Germany had been designed as a huge tank trap (dams could be blown up to flood the plains), and the bridges and some other civilian infrastructure was dual use as well (e.g. signed/scaled for tank passage). Likewise I discovered in late 1989 that a lot of the non-local roads between villages in the DDR weren't really passable by passenger cars but would still have bridges able to support heavy armour.
It seemed like a deliberate policy of both NATO and the Warsaw Pact that if there was to be yet another large war in Europe it should start in Germany for a change.
We didn't yet publish our software in Apple App Store, but I've heard that it could be a problem there, too.
I was looking for electronic ways to send a substantial wad of money domestically once and almost all electronic transfer providers wanted a percentage.
Would be interested to know if there are any online services that can match the transaction fee of a check.
At least they don't expire.
Still, while checks may still be a thing they're pretty rare and rarely required. Mobile and contactless payment is pretty common (outside the food service industry, but I blame the food service industry for that).
It made sense as a convenience fee, until it became ubiquitous. Now it’s a tax that people are blindly opting in to.
I haven't written a check since the late 90's, when I receive a check, I deposit it directly from my phone. I never carry cash. When I shop its nearly all online. Unless its a restaurant, I've ordered and paid before stepping foot or driving through the place.
The point being, business's accommodate their customers and there is a shocking amount of people who don't care about technology in the US, especially outside of business and tech centers.
Or, from https://www.permanenttsb.ie/legal-information/terms-and-cond...:
Taxes and Additional Costs 1. Government Stamp Duty will be charged to your account for each cheque book issued to you (currently €20 per cheque book of 40 cheques). ... etc.
The metro card in NYC is also pretty outdated, the whole metro system looks terrible but talking strictly about technology even the ticket machines are problematic, touch screens that don't work properly and so on; buying bus ticket in PABT is also a quite bad experience.
As for cashless technology, there is significant political backlash to cashless systems. See the efforts by NYC to force businesses to accept cash as payment. I don't think the glacier is going to move much faster until that political resistance is addressed.
Edit: s/cars/cashless/
Android predictive autocorrect is worse than useless these days.
I think that was the point of the originator of the thread - the technology is there, it's just not applied properly. It may have improved recently, but when visiting SF for a few weeks in 2013 and 2014 I was left scratching my head about how best to charge my Clipper card for Muni transit. Topping up the credit via the website had a waiting time of 1-2 working days, so if you were trying to catch a tram or bus into the city centre from the outer neighbourhoods, you had to plan ahead for having enough credit, especially when the weekend was coming up. At BART stations it was usually less problematic to charge the cards - assuming the machine worked, which wasn't always the case.
At any rate, the whole thing felt very uncivilised and anachronistic compared to my experiences in much of Europe, Japan, Hong Kong, and Taiwan. (Japan's Pasmo and similar cards require cash for charging and largely don't accept credit cards, but you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere where you'd have to walk more than a block for an opportunity to charge them - or to find an ATM for obtaining the cash you need.)
But it's political resistance for valid reasons. Per the FDIC, 18% of Americans are underbanked https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/ and 8% are unbanked.
The real problem is 1.) banks are a cancer on society. Most banks these days charge you ridiculous fees if you don't have even a $1500 in the account 2.) the unbanked and underbanked aren't introduced enough to credit unions which are ideally their answer to having savings account that doesnt fuck them 3.) unforunately credit unions cant afford to take risk with offering those with poor credit ratings a credit card
Otherwise, consider yourself lucky to be posting on HackerNews from probably working a tech job to be arguing for non-cash accepting stores. Plenty of people don't have that luxury.
The Metrocard is what one would call a hi-rel product, it hasn't been replaced because it works (baring the annoyance of the turnstile readers which one can eventually master and never have an issue). It is being phased out now in favor of NFC and contactless card payments by 2022. It's only really recently that NFC support has become widespread in private industry anyway and most banks have resisted the same on issuing contactless cards due to cost (and little or no retailer support until recently). They are also adding a buyable in cash payment card for those that dont have a phone or credit card for the poorer folks that don't have the luxury (essentially contactless Metrocard).
Touchscreens are another fun animal. The reason many suck is because they are resistive instead of capacitance touch. They can be made far more resilient against damage/vandalism than a capacitive touchscreen of a phone where the agency would go bankrupt repairing them every day. Downside is, resistive screens do really suck.
They are just trying to get that sweet tip.
