Ask HN: Play Store removed our app, but allows WhatsApp

22 points by heroic 6 years ago | 72 comments

We are a FinTech startup in India. We give unserved people a credit card. To ensure recovery we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay. All of this is covered in our TnC, and we warn users of the actions we will take before we do so.

About two weeks ago, Google Play banned updates to our app from the Play Store citing this section of their Policy, here: https://play.google.com/about/privacy-security-deception/use...

We complied. This is how the screen looked before the change: https://imgur.com/a/o4Cvh7F

Here's how it looked after the change: https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR

We were approved after the change. However 3 days later, we were removed from the Play Store. So now no one can download our app, or update their app if they have a buggy outdated version.

Despite regular appeals, Google keeps redirecting us to the policy above.

Today I checked how WhatsApp handled user uploads, as it's the same thing we do; sync contacts on each launch(we don't sync when the app is not being used though). Here's how WhatsApp looks: https://vimeo.com/user112475576/review/406480240/9ca7c4e2c1

Can anyone help us with what should we do? With the COVID crisis our users are unable to depend on us for their daily spends. We're are the primary credit card for a lot of them, and not being able to service them now, is making us look bad.

ccmcarey 6 years ago |

> we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay

Are you saying you contact the user's contacts to try to get them to pressure the user to pay their bill?

---

I read through your TOS and it looks like this is the relevant line:

> In case of default or late payment, GalaxyCard reserves the right to use suitable means to collect dues including electronic and or physical communication to the debtor and the debtor's known contacts

I think this is a digusting practice, and I am not surprised Google is blocking your app. This is nothing like what WhatsApp does - in fact I don't know of any service at all that does this.

heroic 6 years ago | |

I can understand your dislike to the practice, however, this is something common among a lot of online lending businesses for people who are defaulting on purpose, without a reasonable cause. Here are a few examples: Z2P - Get Instant Loans, Borrow Money, Loan App Instant Personal Loan Online-MoneyWOW

hluska 6 years ago | | |

I’m sorry but this is still scummy. Good on Google for banning you.

orev 6 years ago | | |

In the US, discussing financial issues with anyone other than the people on the account is HIGHLY illegal. There are very strict rules around who you can contact and what you are allowed to say.

davidajackson 6 years ago | | |

Legalities aside, so just because other companies have scummy practices makes it okay for you to?

heroic 6 years ago | |

Yes. We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally we contact the contacts.

We do this to prevent having to file legal cases against the users as those can drag on for very long in India and are a pain for both parties

mkl 6 years ago | | |

Telling your customers' friends and family about their financial problems seems like a pretty terrible thing to do.

Edit: And doing so in the hope that they shame or pressure your customers is awful. I agree with ccmcarey upthread: This is disgusting. Stop it.

pentae 6 years ago | | |

I suspect that kind of innovation is frowned upon by Google. It's not the same context as WhatsApp at all

boudin 6 years ago | | |

That might be part of your issue. You are solicitating their friend and familly as well as sharing with them financial information without their consent.

Why such a weird practice and not simply consider repeated failed payment as a form of cancelation?

Fragoel2 6 years ago | | |

Public-shaming people is not a socially acceptable solution to this problem

hutzlibu 6 years ago |

"Can anyone help us with what should we do?"

Stop using unethical practices. If you use your clients contacts to spam them, to put pressure on your client, then it seems obvious that you have been removed. And this is not the same as what WhatsApp does. Their method is not quite ethical as well, but your method is way below.

_gok2 6 years ago |

> With the COVID crisis our users are unable to depend on us for their daily spends.

If this is truly a humanitarian issue, then then disable the contact harvesting feature

Macha 6 years ago |

Did these contacts of the user give consent to be contacted? Your behaviour seems spammy.

Also the Google page states the following "We don't allow unauthorized publishing or disclosure of people's non-public contacts. " Arguably contacting these people is disclosing they are in a user's contacts. You do seem to breaching Google's policy.

I'm on Google's side here.

heroic 6 years ago | |

In that sense, isn't Facebook showing people you may know, also disclosing to people that they are in my contact list?

Macha 6 years ago | | |

Contact book presence is but one input into that algorithm, which also incorporates friends of friends, friends of people who've logged in from the same IP, people who frequently interact with the same people/content. Its not directly "You might know Alice, we know because she has your number"

olivierduval 6 years ago |

Actually, I think that there's 2 different problems here:

- first is compliance with Google's term. Obviously, you don't say that the USER's contact will be contacted when the USER bill is out of time and the USER doesn't pay... so your USER might not have understood that this will be the case. I think that you should be clearer about the consequences of allowing your app to access the USER contact list.

- second, the morality of the app: obviously, some people in occidental (US / europe) countries might find the app principle awful... because we rely more on Justice than peer-to-peer social pressure. But it's more a cultural difference. If the principle is agreed between the people giving and receiving money... why not ? (I guess that the people giving the money is the one requiring the USER to download the app... Am I right ?)

BTW: what happens if the people receving the money desinstall the app ? Or empty its contact list ? Or has no contact ?

If I would like to trick your system, I would fill my contact list with garbage, get the money, spend it, then let you contact these garbage contact... Or do you require contacts to use your app too (forced "net effect") ?

Anyway: nothing common with WhatsApp

Jabbles 6 years ago |

> To ensure recovery we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don't pay.

Could you explain this sentence in more detail please.

Jonnax 6 years ago |

So you contact people's friends, family, colleagues, and random contacts saying:

"This person you know is too poor to pay their credit card bill, can you pressure them into paying it?"

Damn. That's a new level of crazy.

heroic 6 years ago | |

These people are not poor. They assume that since it's an app they taking money from, they can simply refuse to pay. We can, and do, go for the legal route, but it's much much more painful for the user, and for us, even if we want to settle it once a case is filed.

hncensorsnonpc 6 years ago | | |

Dude you LOST, you and India's laws are morally bankrupt about it, you are NOT heroic! You claim that your customers are not poor but by definition you stupid lending app is praying in the poor and low IQ people to make you money. STOP

phillc73 6 years ago |

Not solutions, but two potential workarounds.

Is it possible to open source the app itself and then distribute via F-Droid?[1]

Can you provide your customers with a direct apk download? Although, you will then need to educate your customers about the "scarey" warnings about doing so. I do not have Google Play Store installed on my phone and it is an annoyance when app developers do not provide a direct apk download.

Initially, from an ease of update point of view, I guess neither option is quite as convenient as the Play Store. However, once you've broken your reliance on Google to distribute your application, you'll never have to deal with such a situation again.

[1] https://f-droid.org/

heroic 6 years ago | |

We are giving the APK as an option to people who are reaching out on support about bugs. But most people don't have the know how of how to enable installing from unknown sources

hncensorsnonpc 6 years ago | |

I hope to god fdroid does not allow this. They will probably newer open source their build app and let fdroid build it anyway.

anilgulecha 6 years ago |

It's a scummy business and even if its fully legal under the text of the law, you should be ashamed of your tactics and business model.

You'll get no sympathy if a private business will remove you from their store.

rognjen 6 years ago |

Holy false equivalence Batman!

First, afaik WhatsApp doesn't store your contacts but checks if they're available on WhatsApp.

Second, it most definitely doesn't contact them.

mkbkn 6 years ago |

I'm from India and your service seems unethical to me. Good job by Google banning you. Period.

Nextgrid 6 years ago |

This has got to be one of the scummiest business models I’ve seen in ages. Do not do this.

t0ughcritic 6 years ago |

This is what worries me about building on these platforms they giveth and taketh at will

amelius 6 years ago |

That vimeo link doesn't work.

heroic 6 years ago | |

Aah! Here's the video: https://youtu.be/XVQCJsgmQ0w