Currently, 48M+ people in the U.S. were born outside the U.S. and we welcome a larger total number (like 1.2M+) of immigrants per year than any other country in the world. By far - it's like double the closest country easily, year in and year out. Basically all of Western Europe combined. Might as well have a lot of them be PhDs and other highly skilled/educated people.
Besides, half of Silicon Valley was started by immigrants or children of immigrants - maybe more. In my experience, third+ generation Americans tend to take what they have for granted. If you've worked your ass off and crossed the world to get to the U.S., you're the type of person we want here. It's been that way for literally generations. To quote Hamilton (which I just saw this weekend), "Immigrants. They get the job done."
The locals seem to agree -- it has been Bay Area communities' policy to hinder international and interstate migration into the area by limiting new construction, on the grounds that more people makes the community a worse place to live.
I've been here 25 years now... Do I count? My son grew up here, does he count even though he's my son? I'm sure the Native Americans or the Spanish after them would love to chat about your ideas on immigration. This state would be a pristine garden without all the northern European descendents mucking up the place.
How far back do we need to go? Talk about no commute and lots of free time! Get rid of all the immigrants and this place would be heaven. Sadly, all the people who consider themselves "local" would have to go as well.
H-1B is about skills in high demand not extraordinary ability.
Many personal friends of mine are H-1B and they would not be even considered the best or brightest in their own household.
Of course, you have to be somewhat smart to meet the basic requirements: bachelor's degree or equivalent. But that does not mean you are among the best.
So Melania Trump was the best and brightest? By what metric?
The more I read about this the more I question if it is actually worth the trouble. However I am a US citizen, something which in these conversations make me realize how lucky (privileged) I am to not endure this
It is very similar to workers having to 'pay their immigration' debts, while not directly, but by tying the visa to an employe, and making hard to move employers if you are going through the green card process (it can reset you green card process in many cases).
Who knew, the feudal system if live and well, in the 21st century. If you don't like it, banishment/expulsion from the community. (aka, deportation) to where you come from.
It is something that many put up, for a better life. If you are in the 'non capped' countries, usually it is few years to endure it until you get the green card, but for the caped countries, it can take decades to get the green card.
254k/365k of H1B petitions in 2017 were for computer occupations (those are predominantly in software development and computer programming). If we assume the proportion of actual workers is similar to petitions, we would assume there are about 400k H1B workers in software. About 1.5 million were employed in software development and computer programming 2018.
[1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/...
About 30% are for "computer systems analyst" or "computer occupations, other" but I don't really buy most of those petitions aren't actually for devs. All software developers on TN visas (NAFTA/USMCA visas) are officially "computer systems analysts" for example.
Make America free again.
I expect we'd end up with a system pretty similar to the one we have now, with each country demanding a certain "investment" from the prospective citizen before they be granted the benefits of citizenship (e.g. certain number of years spent there) or that they are bringing something valuable to the table (e.g. in-demand skills or qualifications).
While it does this, when the program was envisioned no one imagined H-1B visa holders working here for 10+ years.
If only there were a word for the importation of minority labor and locking them into employment with their sponsor, effectively reducing their negotiating power for salary to zero...
Not to mention by artificially suppressing H-1B salaries over time, it puts negative wage pressure on US workers in similar positions.
I believe H-1B workers should be offered green cards if they are here for more than 2-3 years, so they can negotiate on equal footing with US citizens.
- Common carrier arrival manifests.
- Visa stamp process arrival record and I-94 issuance. [4]
- US-VISIT biometrics collection on arrival. [2]
- Form I-9 when starting a new job. [3]
- Form AR-11 every time they move. [1]
- Common carrier departure manifests.
- Tax returns.
As far as I can tell the only people who "sneak out" do so by crossing the border into Canada and the US should have access to that data from Canadian authorities after the fact also.
[1] https://www.uscis.gov/ar-11
[2] https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/usvisit/usvisit_edu_trav...
Therefore, since there is no way to detect when an H1B worker leaves the country, there is no easy way to estimate the number of H1Bs currently in the country.
A scream emoji seems appropriate...
Every single foreigner is assigned a unique alien number and tracks your entry and exit into the country.
They just don't want to deal with connecting information from two different departments.
In there it clearly states that it is because there is no electronic tracking system of any kind. They're trying to figure out the estimates based on paper records.
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
It really doesn't do that. To be fair, H-1Bs are supposed to be in-demand specialty workers, to meet the spirit of the program. That means they have, by definition, negotiating power. I've spent a lot of time in H-1 status and I have definitely negotiated my compensation -- with both current and prospective employers.
This data is available for you to search, and it's all public record. You can find my salary in the database. [1]
As a former H1B holder (and currently on a Green Card), being on a H-1B has prevented me:
1. Not accepting a higher salary offer, but going with a more 'safe option'
2. Having to negotiate for asap Green Card application, vs. salary
3. Not being able to accept a promotion to a manager, as I had a ongoing Green Card application as engineer/ic, and that would jeopardize my green card application
4. Not being able to create, or join a very early startup
5. Having high anxiety, for all the paperwork required, and the RFE recieved after switching jobs...
6. Inability to switch jobs, if you have a Perm/Green Card application ongoing, as it will rest it (even for non-capped countries, it might take 2+ years for the whole process to go through)
etc... etc..
You must be young and naive if you believe being on a H1B doesn't suppress one's salary, or potential.
The current H1B system is in-tenured servitude, and a continuation of old Feudal System, by tying the ability to work for a class of workers to their employer. Yes, you can switch employers, but at great costs, and at risking eventual deportation (if you don't play the immigration game right, and get the Perm/Green Card in time).
"Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, and Howard University political science professor Ron Hira, found that 60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region. Google, Facebook and Apple “take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill,” Costa and Hira said in an Economic Policy Institute paper."
(from the article above)
But if you're from somewhere with a large backlog (e.g. India and China) you're looking at a decade+.
So the real issue here is the green card quota levels, not so much the h1b itself.
I'd still rather spare people that terror.
I am a conservative strongly against illegal immigration, but conversely I think we need to open up legal immigration a lot more, especially to those who've worked here and contributed to our economic success, like H-1B workers.
If you've got a motivated employer you can get it done in 18 months.
- PERM takes 6-9 months to prepare.
- PERM takes 120 days to certify currently.
- I-140, I-485, I-765, I-131 and I-693 can be filed simultaneously for rest-of-world.
- I-140 with premium processing takes 1-15 days (3-12 months without).
- I-485 takes 8-14 months, but after 180 days you're AC21 portable.
H1-B do get sponsored green cards, at least for the non-startup companies. IIRC, any H1-B having more than one extension i.e. > 6 years has to have a green card application pending. H1-B doesn't have country caps.
The green card system however has per country caps, which impacts primarily people born in India, China, Mexico,El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Vietnam and Philippines. If you are born in Greece and come to USA on H1-B where a company sponsors green card for you, you would get it in around 1-3 years.
Source: Was born in India and also had a roommate from Greece who got green card in about 14 months after being in USA.
EDIT: Added El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Vietnam to list of countries impacted based on https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/visa-law0/v...
The H-1B is a dual-intent visa. This means "you may apply for it and show intent to immigrate, for example, by starting the PERM process". This is unlike a tourist or student visa, where there are grounds for denial if you show any intent to immigrate.
There are a number of "I'd like to immigrate to the US" visas, primarily based around 3 categories - family, employment, or refugee status. The employment-based green card (which is what H-1B holders apply for) has quotas based upon the applicant's country of birth. An H-1B holder born anywhere other than India or China can get an employment-based green card in less than 3 years.
And, I've come across Americans in bay area who were so pissed off with this that they voted for Trump. The level of politics and discrimination I've seen would make anyone angry.
There are highly skilled people working on H1B but they're a minority. If H1B allows only full time employment and no contract jobs, a lot of abuse will be eliminated.
Edit: Why the downvotes? Truth hurts? This is a known secret throughout the valley.
It turns out that the entire H-1B program has been a massive scam. It was created and promoted by American Big Tech companies to make them money at the expense of American citizens. It's been a trillion dollar theft from lower and middle class Americans into the hands of the 1%.
Without the H-1B in place, these companies would be working to fix America's education system, paying more in salary to workers, and lifting more Americans into the middle class.
The program has been beneficial in many ways but the overall effect has been to use foreigners as a weapon against citizens.
One of the most reprehensible aspects has been the propaganda by the Big Tech companies. They're pretending to care about America's melting pot and helping immigrants, but they're importing primarily the wealthiest immigrants. They're damaging America and other countries at the same time, all in the name of money.
Besides, most of the "legitimate" companies, pay good wages (this would be pretty much any company in the bay area). I'm not sure if you know this, but almost all H1Bs negotiate their offers in the valley (and in places like NYC/Chicago/Atlanta).
There's an additional overhead to the company hiring H1Bs as well, it's somewhat cost prohibitive in general.
Are you a software developer? Most people seem to underestimate the work software developers do, it's definitely not a simple "desk job".
That said, I've made my peace with this, if a majority of the people think that they don't want high skilled immigrants in the country (as opposed to say, low farm labor, which hires way more H-visas). I'm cool with it, I'm making my way to Canada anyway, and my current employer is ok with it.
The impression I get is that Americans don't want to do "dirty" jobs, like farm labor, clearly the latest Executive Order exempted them. Somehow, that it is morally acceptable to vie for the high paying jobs, while outsourcing the "dirty" jobs to immigrants.
Without this system, companies would move a lot of jobs to Canada(which has a much easier immigration system) and to India and East Europe etc. Which would hurt the general economy real hard.
Investing in education etc is not really the job of companies in our capitalist system. They could not capture enough of the value to justify the cost, especially given the very long lead times.p
> 1. Not accepting a higher salary offer, but going with a more 'safe option'
For me, the 'safe option' came with the highest salary. Usually the riskier bets come with lower up-front payoffs in my experience.
> 2. Having to negotiate for asap Green Card application, vs. salary
I've not had to do this. Most employers I've interviewed with were either (a) early stage and let me do whatever I wanted re: immigration -- even to the extent of saying you drive, and submit the bills or (b) later-stage companies that had fixed corporate policies re: when the green card process can begin and it's initiated by the manager. My most recent employer began the PERM process during our first 1:1 and the my recruiter was very curious why I was so interested in the process since it's totally mechanical from their perspective.
This is a criticism of the green card process, not intrinsic to H-1Bs.
> 3. Not being able to accept a promotion to a manager, as I had a ongoing Green Card application as engineer/ic, and that would jeopardize my green card application
Indeed but that is not actually a function of your H-1, right, but rather a function of that fact you'd kicked off your green card process, a different process. With it's own insanities.
> 4. Not being able to create, or join a very early startup
Create, no. And that's a huge loss to America. What ever happened to Startup Parole anyways?
Join, sure. If you really wanted, you could easily have talked your company into letting you handle the process and submitting the expense reports. All you need for an H-1 is an LCA and prevailing wage. LCA isn't hard, and prevailing wage is low, a common complaint of the H-1 program. For the bay area it's like 90K for a software engineer.
> 5. Having high anxiety, for all the paperwork required, and the RFE recieved after switching jobs...
Yep, that sucks for sure, and is totally fair. There are ways to mitigate this. You can apply for an H-1 transfer speculatively while at your old employer. Once successfully approved, you can make the hop. There's no obligation to go through with it if you later change your mind. I think this is one of the lesser known features of the H-1.
> 6. Inability to switch jobs, if you have a Perm/Green Card application ongoing, as it will rest it (even for non-capped countries, it might take 2+ years for the whole process to go through)
The inability to switch jobs isn't H-1 related, again, it's a function of the green card process which is, as I conceded earlier, very stupid. But also, transient. Once you hit 180 days in Adjustment of Status, AC21 portability kicks off and your employer can no longer withdraw your I-140. You can then move largely at will -- even to self-employment, for the few remaining weeks it takes your I-485 to be approved. [1]
> Yes, you can switch employers, but at great costs, and at risking eventual deportation (if you don't play the immigration game right, and get the Perm/Green Card in time).
Again, yes, but this also not intrinsic to the H-1 but rather to the green card process. With that in mind you're eligible to indefinitely extend your H-1 status as soon as you have an approved I-140 (which you can get in 14 days) in 1 or 3 year increments.
[1] http://cilawgroup.com/news/2012/10/01/rules-governing-i-485-...
This site will let you search your own travel history with both arrival and departure dates - https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/history-search
I want a company that protects my life and property, at a fixed cost, on a contractual basis. There are many others like me, who see the purpose of government as protecting life and property, not as central planners ruling every aspect of their subjects’ lives.
I don't see how doing away with our current company and hoping that more opaque groups with more concentrated voting power could be expected to produce any better results. It would essentially guarantee extreme concentration of power and wealth. A group that includes everyone that are under it's power, and taxation of those members, are the only ways to avoid the prisoner's dilemma and ensure that everyone is contributing to things that are beneficial to everyone instead of competing in ways that are detrimental to everyone except the owners of the group. If the only situation the central government could ever intervene in was direct threats to life and property (I assume you are including contract enforcement?), then there is no incentive for companies to avoid social traps [1]; anti-competitive behavior, price gouging, indentured servitude (they signed the contract, after all!), pollution... there is no amount of external cost too great as long as there is even a modicum of internally-captured benefit. It makes the game not even zero-sum, but negative-sum. The basic argument is that avoiding these issues in education, healthcare and retirement are all already forms of protecting everyone's life, property, and liberty. For instance, the only reason you're even able to earn "your" money that you claim the government steals is because of roads the government has built. What's to stop a company from buying the sidewalk and road outside of your property and charging you half of your salary as a subscription fee to use it? In fact, allow a company to buy up the road networks across the nation and charge as much as people are willing to pay; they'd make tons and tons of money, but introduce huge friction into the entire economy (and likely destroy GDP).
Government control can cause problems and create inefficiencies, certainly. It can create moral hazards too. And there is an argument to be made that the control that the government currently has is too much, and dialing it back could cause a wellspring of beneficial innovation. I think that's likely the case in some industries (healthcare, especially). However, it would also cause a huge surge in innovation in negative ways too; there's a lot of low-hanging fruit in unsavory areas that companies haven't pursued because it's been illegal to do so. Throwing out nearly all of the oversight, checks and balances that have been devised can only make sense if you completely ignore the outsize effects that everyone benefits from due to the controls that we do have in place. The benefits are often invisible (or nearly invisible), so they can be hard to see and so they are easy to ignore in crafting the ideal world in one's head. When thinking of the government, we are naturally more often going to think of the times it's failed us. I just urge you to reconsider. There are places that are run on principles closer to the libertarian ideal, and they tend to be run by power-hungry madmen and be much worse places to live than democracies unless you're at the very, very, very top.
Huh.
If the population is really sparse, immigration really does improve the society -- it allows for specialization, with supermarkets, karate studios, and the like. Then, as the population gets more dense, the marginal benefit of population growth, assuming random average people, decreases. Eventually, it goes negative. At that point, you need to raise the bar -- e.g. only admit high quality immigrants, or family reunification (which benefits citizen family members). The higher the population, the higher the bar needs to get raised.
The problem with your analysis is that it doesn't take into account the total population number. Any advocacy for immigration that doesn't differentiate between a national population of 100 million, 350 million, and 900 million, if that advocacy argues that it benefits the country, is intrinsically defective,
Evidence that you command a high salary or other significantly high remuneration in relation to others in the field
Evidence of your commercial successes in the performing arts
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/questions-linger-abo...
* have access to your internet usage, search history, and phone records
* track our location through cellphones
* have surveillance cameras everywhere, in case you didn't bring your phone
* track where your cars is through a vast network of ANPRs
* fly drones/planes over cities doing aerial surveillance
And you think that tracking the number of H1B visa holders is too much?
I’ve worked with a handful of EB-1 holders. I wouldn’t qualify a single one as “exceptional.” Fine coworkers, sure, but to a one the justification for EB-1 strained credulity.
I have however worked with several H1-B holders of whom I would say the opposite.
https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/reports-studies/Ch...
So 86% of of "Systems Analysis And Programming" and "Computer Occupations, Other" are "Systems Analysis And Programming".
If you want to assume "Computer Occupations, Other" are not devs, which is not a good assumption in my opinion then fine only 86% are devs.
Economies are demand driven. Participation is good. Banning foreign workers to protect a subset of American workers is bad.
Because they still want to hire lots of Americans. They just don't want to pay them market prices. So they bring in H1-Bs to lower wages. If they hired them overseas, there wouldn't be that effect:
From the article above:
"Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, and Howard University political science professor Ron Hira, found that 60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region. Google, Facebook and Apple “take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill,” Costa and Hira said in an Economic Policy Institute paper."
I'd personally like to see the US adopt a systematic and generous immigration system like Canada's. But the H1-B system has mostly been a farce, used as a weapon against American workers. There are exceptions, but overall, it's most benefited the big tech company stockholders.
Wow, it takes skill to come up with an argument like that. How do you imagine this conversation happens at MegaCorp_0 between HR and a Hiring manager?
HR: “I know you need someone who has Skill_0, but we want to reduce wages so it has to be a h1b...”
Manager: “But I already have Candidate_0..”
HR: “Nope has to be h1b!”
/s (in case it was not obvious)
Let's say that this was honestly true. H-1Bs have been around for what, 30ish years now? If we assume that the sole purpose of H-1Bs was to lower wages, then we should've seen slow wage growth or wage depression for software engineers.
But the reality seems to be the opposite which is that salary growth for H-1B positions seems to be among the highest wages in the country. It seems absurd to make that claim considering many other countries pay software engineers far less and America is considered an outlier with how much we tend to be paid.
This isn't to say that H-1Bs aren't abused because H-1Bs themselves do tend to be paid a lot less and come with a whole host of restrictions that make job seeking difficult. But overall I don't think the claim that it depresses wages necessarily holds water. If anything what would be likely is companies expanding international offices (which many already are doing) so that they can have access to the same cheap labor pool and avoid paying the absurd SV rates for Americans.
Specifically, this study, which is convincing to me, but always interested in other ideas. This one is a kind of natural experiment so the data are randomized (because companies are awarded via lottery): https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pd...
I recommend you think lightly of posts like these. This is not a debate, and if it was, there's clearly nothing to win.
As opposed to 50% of the normal workforce which receives lower-than-average wages by definition? Feels like that number, while significant, was framed to be sensational.
I'm curious how much of this is attributable to:
1. Technical skill level. Are they new grads or junior folks? Is this skew happening because the senior folks roll off onto green cards?
2. Soft skill level. Are employers taking on folks with language skills or management skills or cultural skills that need to be leveled up?
Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs?
>Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs?
I'd be very surprised if it didn't at least improve. But it still results in suppressed salaries for American workers. And isn't some weird conspiracy that tech CEOs believe salaries are far too high and want to suppress them: we have emails of them discussing exactly that (in another context not involving immigration)
EDIT: I previously had some other suggestions, but I think the most beneficial and abuse-proof system for all involved would be to have the tech companies bid for visas (as many others have suggested). That should eliminate the potential for abuse.
That's unnecessary, as the O-1 has the same requirements as an EB1A green card petition. The immigrant visa form of the O-1 is simply an EB1A petition. It's actually possible to self-petition EB1A. Only India and China have a backlog of EB1A petitions, and their priority dates are ~2017.
I'd love to read that study if you dig it up!
For what it's worth, I believe in wholesale immigration reform. I think the current system is byzantine and utterly ridiculous and leaves the country at a huge disadvantage compared to the rest of the world. While by no means a Trump supporter, his points-based immigration program that never materialized would be a big, big step in the right direction.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/05/19/immig...
If it's accurately described, I have some problems with this one, but still looking for the original.
The US, unlike Europe (at least in my experience) doesn’t check passports on the way out. They rely on flight manifests or information from Canadian authorities on who has exited.
Unlike the Schengen zone, certainly, but some European countries also do not check passports on exit (the UK is a good example).
If the people creating US technology weren't permitted to move here, the center of mass of the world's tech industry would shift somewhere else with sane immigration policies, probably Toronto. US persons who want to work in technology would have to emigrate to find jobs.
You can't just eliminate the vast majority of the people who work in an industry, and expect it to still exist.
He certainly wouldn't have been born in the US, gotten adopted into the particular family that he was, and received the opportunities that he did had his bio father not emigrated.
I had to look up who the Night Stalker was, now I wish I hadn't. Not going to be able to sleep now :-/
I agree that we need reform in this area. For one, a bidding system for H1-B type visas could prevent much of the abuse. Like you, I'm not a Trump supporter, but I like the points-based system. Not sure why that got so much criticism (probably simply because it came from him). It's similar to Canada's system, which most people around the globe seem to admire.
I hope people can understand that it isn't some kind of xenophobic nativism that inspires the H1-B dislike among some Americans. It's fear for our financial future. It isn't always obvious to those working in SV, but in most of the country, the typical lower- or middle-class worker has not been enjoying a a booming economy in terms of wages. Real wages for the middle- and lower-classes in the US have been stagnant or falling for decades. So we're fighting to get or remain in the middle class.
In my own extended family, the generational difference in financial security is stark, despite getting similar degrees, military service, working hard, etc etc. Some cousins are basically falling out of the middle class. Crossing over into some kind of IT work is one of the few remaining paths someone at age 30 can take to remain in the middle class after their profession is lost to globalization or automation. I have a cousin who did it.
Anyway, I think real immigration reform won't happen under either of the current political parties. We need something new, which is unlikely to happen.
Edit: here the study referenced in that article, at least: https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wa...
Edit: Here's the paper I was thinking of. It's pretty convincing to me. I'd be interested in your input: https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pd...
What I think is most disheartening is that Republicans and Democrats alike have no interest whatsoever in immigration reform. Democrats controlled both houses and the presidency and were unwilling to do anything. And then there's Dick Durbin, who torpedoed the most recent round of reforms.
For instance, a promotion or regular pay raise doesn't trigger a new LCA. That only happens when you change employers. As an employer, if it didn't affect the likelihood of an approved LCA (and the article does itself state that they're largely pro forma, and won't get denied unless there's an obvious error) why would the employer not pick the lowest class to maximize flexibility?
The one that convinced me previously was the second link, which was a pretty convincing natural experiment leveraging the fact that the visas are awarded by (randomized) lottery.
The reason was quite simple, Republicans didn't like it because it did not reduce the legal immigration numbers, and Democrats did not like it because it eliminated pretty much all the family based immigration except for spouses and children which meant people would be not be able to sponsor their parents and siblings.
Not really true. There is no special treatment for Indians in that bill. Indians will have to wait the same 5 to 10 years if they apply for a green card at the same time as others.
Even that will happen only 5 to 10 years from now, during which an immigration friendly administration could increase the green cards or give other forms of relief. It's sad to have to say this but when people from Europe, Australia etc. are waiting for a long time it'll be more palatable for Congress and the President to increase green cards compared to the current situation.
>Removing the per-country cap must come with increasing the overall Green Card cap. Otherwise it will just be pitting one group of immigrants against another
Those groups aren't equivalent though, one has been waiting for 10+ years in the green card queue while the other is expecting instant green cards based on their country of birth. The current system already pitts one group against the other and gives one the preferential treatment and disadvantages the other.
Also, the Congressional Research Service's research on the bill says that the current system makes employers prefer Indians for IT jobs since it's much harder for them to switch jobs for a very long time compared to other nationalities who might take off once they get their Green Card.