Ask HN: Should one buy Intel-based Macs now?

32 points by adur1990 5 years ago | 48 comments

Apple today updated the iMac (Pro). Among other changes they also now come with 10th Gen Intel CPUs. The question now becomes if it is a good idea to buy one (or other Macs).

Obviusly, this depends on the situation and use-case. Thus, I will give describe my situation. The company I work for gave me a 13" MBP that has deceng juice to get my work done (mainly writing docx and LaTeX, using SSH for remote access to Linux servers and workstations). And I am also alowed to use it for private purposes, so I also use it for my side-projects (Python and Xcode projects mainly). Now comes the catch. I'm also musician using Logic. And here the MBP struggles having only 4 Cores. So, my plan was to buy an decent iMac and use it for the next 6+ years. I wanted to buy the i9 CPU and 512GB SSD and upgrade the RAM myself. And after all the years, the iMac would be upgradable (to some degree). But these options are now gone, I think. macOS will certainly not be supported for 6+ years (assuming a similar timeline as during the last transition). So if I buy one now, in the near future I will have a really expensive Linux worstation.

And there is also the question if (i)Macs with Apple Silicon will be upgradeable. CPUs surely not, but I am afraid RAM and storage won't be upgradable neither.

So, what is you take on this problem? Would you buy or not? If, why?

chrisjs96 5 years ago |

I'm in the same boat. I'm kind of done with Mac though because Catalina broke a bunch of VST's I used and Live 9. I'm not paying for an upgrade on Ableton Live because an OS upgrade. It's not even that old. Live 1 still installs on Windows just fine. I guess Catalina is getting us used to all the stuff breaking and never working on ARM. People really expect someone like Propellerheads Reason to work on ARM? It doesn't even have 4k support. Mark my words, there is going to be big name music software that will never work on Arm. They'll just turn in to Windows only support. At least then they don't have to rewrite their software every two years for Mac. These codebases go back decades.

I had to downgrade to Mojave but how long is that actually going to work. Stuff moves too fast on Apple. I can install old deprecated software and Windows and it boots up just fine. Cakewalk Project 5 for example and load up projects that are 15 years old. All of the old Cakewalk VST's still work fine on Windows but stopped working on Mac at Yosemite. It's just pitiful. If I wasn't a mobile developer I would have dropped Mac in a heartbeat.

snowwrestler 5 years ago |

In general, I would not buy the first iteration of a major new Apple product. If you look back the first Macbook Air, first iPhone, first iPad, first Apple Watch... the third or fourth iteration absolutely blew away the first.

So this seems like a great time to get the latest Intel Mac. By the time you're ready to replace it, Apple will be past iteration #1 of the ARM Macs, hopefully well past it.

Jtsummers 5 years ago | |

It's probably a good idea to skip the first generation in general, but this is a bit different than those others.

The first iPhone had a fixed function graphics pipeline and 2G cellular service. Unsuitable for the native application market that they set up afterward and changing cellular capabilities and customer expectations.

The first iPad was similarly very constrained, though slightly better. For all practical purposes, it was a blown up iPhone 4.

I suspect, given the general advancements and recent stability in Apple's ARM SOCs, that this first generation of hardware will be good, though maybe a bit underpowered compared to what people are used to with the Intel equivalent. But not the practically beta level of those other devices.

jandrese 5 years ago | | |

I wouldn't be surprised if the first generation ships with firmware issues. The x86 emulator is also likely to be a source of friction. In the past when Apple has switched architectures the new one is so much faster that even emulated code see some benefit. That's not the case here, old x86 apps stand a good chance of performing poorly and having issues. I wouldn't blame anyone for holding off for a generation or two.

anw 5 years ago |

I would get one.

First, I generally would wait to see how the Apple Silicon laptops do in the real world. I'm sure they will eventually be very great, but I wouldn't buy the first generation just the same as I would not immediately upgrade to a new version of OSX/macOS.

Let the bugs get worked out, let other vendors pick up their own support for it, then take a look at if it's worth investing in.

Second, even if Apple drops all support tomorrow for their Intel line, you still have a working setup that can take you through at least 3+ years of use before needing an upgrade, including software (Brew, MacPorts). Your DAW won't immediately stop working. SSH won't stop working. There are still companies that let you download older versions of their software (Cubase, for instance). If another big Heartbleed-like issue is found, get the update from HomeBrew and set your PATH to use those binaries instead of the default ones.

Lastly, your Intel Mac is still a computer. You can install Linux or Windows and get extra use out of it.

biztos 5 years ago |

My company assigned me a 16" MBP with gobs of memory and all that. I am sitting here right now with an extremely light set of applications running, CPU is 98% idle, I've got a 4K 27" monitor and the MacBook is in clamshell mode. Plugged in and fully charged. Ambient temperature is 25C and CPU temp is 60C.

Both fans are running loud enough to notice: 2600RPM, about 27%, and that's about average when it's not asleep. It's too loud to watch a quiet movie without headphones.

If I had full control of my kit, I would seriously consider ditching the 16" MBP in favor of a 27" iMac just in the hope that the cooling system isn't a complete disaster.

As for the ARM question, I am very much looking forward to buying an ARM Macbook Air (or whatever) for personal use.

But since I have no idea exactly when one will show up that does what I need; and since I expect the Intel Macs to be supported for many years to come; and since especially for a desktop it's also quite nice with other OS's; I wouldn't hesitate to buy an Intel Mac if I needed one.

Just not the damned 16" MacBook Ventilator.

geuis 5 years ago |

It’s a really straightforward decision.

- Do you want/need a Mac? - Can you afford the one you want?

People agonize over this way too much.

I did a few months ago. My trusty 2013 MBP finally was wearing out. I needed a new MBP and the new 16in has rolled back some of the previously objectionable changes (keyboard, restored escape key). I could afford it (but whew I’ll admit that was a big number).

I only work on MacOS. I have a Windows desktop for games but despite the hardware being high quality, I can’t ever be productive on a Windows environment.

You just have to decide if you need it and buy it.

anw 5 years ago | |

> I only work on MacOS. I have a Windows desktop for games but despite the hardware being high quality, I can’t ever be productive on a Windows environment.

I have that same feeling.

At Uni we had to alternate between coding in SSH on Redhat machines for one class, and writing .NET programs in other classes.

While both are workable, something just felt foreign about development or DB management on Windows (even with great tools like Visual Studio).

I attribute this to knowing more about the inner workings of *nix compared to Windows, where things such as registry, services, etc. felt more like black-box magic compared to having config files, cron jobs, daemons, etc.

tmoaad 5 years ago |

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a intel-based mac (hell, I bought a new MBP 16" not but 3 months ago knowing about the ARM changes). My suggestion would be to hold off on any ARM based mac-purchases (with a carve out for those that only use their mac as a glorified chrome machine).

Apple gets many things right the first time around e.g many people ragged on Apple's FaceID but I think it's pretty successful in the /mobile facial recognition space/. We in the tech community are often reminded not to buy the first-generation of anything due to the inherit bugs/issues/stability so it's been very perplexing to me as to why people want to jump on being the first movers for ARM based macs. I understand that Apple has moved from PPC to Intel (and in under their two year goal) but that was a different Apple, different organization, and different leadership.

adur1990 5 years ago |

Thank you for all your replies.

One point I may have missed point out more clearly: The 6+ years I plan to use this thing is also due to environmental considerations.

First, I am a big advocate of the right to repair. I think it is consumer-friendly and more sustainable. One of my Apple Silicon concerns is, that the new Macs won't be as repair-friendly as the current generation. MacBook are already not repairable at all, I guess this trend will continue to the Desktop lineup (except the Mac Pro maybe).

Second, almost all my devices eventually have a second live, sometimes even a third live. My first MacBook (first white Intel MacBook) was used by my wife for 3 years after I used it 5 years. Then the plastic body started to fall apart, so I sold it on eBay for a decent price. My first Mac Mini (2,1) was used for about 6 years. Then, I upgraded the 32-bit Core Duo CPU to a 64-bit Core2Duo, got 4 GB RAM and a SSD. I patched EFI to support 64-bit OS and the Mac Mini runs as a little home-server (Pi-Hole, Time Machine, Nextcloud). And finally, my 2011 15" MacBook Pro still runs Catalina (thanks to DosDude's Catalina Patcher tool). This is were currently my music production and recording happens (yes, really!). This machine has still more juice than the new 13" MBP.

So, the point is, however, I want run macOS as long as possible on this machine and then give it a second live (what ever it will be then). And I'm afraid this will be a problem because either a) (if I buy Intel) macOS will drop support for Intel in 5-ish years or b) (if I wait for Apple Silicon) the iMac won't be upgradable and everything glued and soldered to the max, which also makes repairs impossible.

Do you have any thoughts on this matter?

And what I can read from your comments is a) Don't hesitate if you need/can afford/can live with macOS and b) it's probably time to leave the Apple ecosystem. Anyways, you gave good points to think about, thanks a lot!

mark_l_watson 5 years ago |

I ordered the recently updated MacBook Air for my wife yesterday. Her old one is over five years old and she uses it a lot, so it seemed like a no-brainer refresh.

If it was for me, I would wait for the Apple Silicon. I use a three year old MacBook, love it, and I was happy to hear that Apple may start selling that form factor again with Apple Silicon.

I do most of my development on a remote VPS that is much more powerful than my MacBook but I still do sometimes use IDEs so an iPad Pro or ChromeBook won't do it for me. I also have a System76 Linux laptop that is great.

artembugara 5 years ago |

I would go for it unless you can wait for 3-4 years.

It will take time to understand how good silicon macbooks are.

So, 2 years to release, plus 1-2 years to understand how good it is, and how fast all the apps will be fully migrated.

oblib 5 years ago |

I think I'd wait for Apple to transition to their new CPU.

My first Mac was a Mac Plus. It was old when I bought it. My first new Mac was PowerPC 6100. Then a G4 Mac. Both of those were pretty much obsoleted by Apple so fast I had no choice but to purchase a new one, and then all the software I used that wouldn't run on them, and some of it was never updated for use on the new hardware.

I've been using a Mac Mini I bought new for $500 for the past 10 years. I was kinda hoping Apple would release another in that price range but the last update on those didn't have an option in that range. Perhaps the new ones will, but considering their current plans I don't want to be put in the same position I was when I bought that 6100 or the G4.

So I purchased a new Raspberry Pi 4 with 8GB of ram a couple weeks ago just in case my old Mini bites the dust. Performance wise it's pretty close the Mini I have now. The hardest part of moving to it is not being able to run BBEdit. I've been using that for around 20 years and it's almost worth buying a new Mac just for that. But the idea that a new Mac will likely be obsoleted in just a couple years and I'll have purchase another new Mac again to keep using it is a deal breaker for me right now.

jiveturkey 5 years ago |

No hesitation: yes. Intel Macs will be supported for a long time to come, easily for the next 6 years you cite. And you won't have to deal with 1st gen ARM bugs. And you can use it now, not 1 or more years from now.

iMac is not upgradeable however. don't kid yourself.

> macOS will certainly not be supported for 6+ years (assuming a similar timeline as during the last transition).

Don't understand this at all. macOS will be supported forever. Did you miss a word?

reacharavindh 5 years ago |

Opinion:

Apple has indicated that ARM is where their future is. If you’re looking at using the product for 6 years and can afford to wait a bit, I would wait for the ARM ones. Even though the first generation may not be perfect. Based on the past experiences, Apple is pretty good at making the hardware. Software may take a bit to catch up, but the upside in performance and flexibility could be very high.

jitendrac 5 years ago |

I would not advise to buy the first generation Arm based MACs, because when the underlying platform changes system must go through many unstable iterations before getting optimal balance which I think will come after at least 3rd generation of Arm-Macs. Intel macs are well matured for its eco system, and as far as future concerns apple will support it for at least 3 years which may be short life for rather robust hardware.

So, I would advise you to go to third route, build a hackintosh system there are some good website which lists well reviewed hackintosh builds like

https://www.tonymacx86.com/buyersguide/building-a-customac-h...

give it a try, It will last for at least 5 years(may be 10). you can always update it to run Linux or Windows in future when you buy a matured Arm based iMac.

DenseComet 5 years ago | |

Don't build a hackintosh if you're depending on it for a living though. I'm saying this while typing on a hackintosh. I've really enjoyed building it and playing around with it. I love the power it has. However, there are lots of small quirks that get annoying to deal with over time.

Having to read over multiple threads before updating, having to reset iCloud passwords after triggering Apple's security checks, etc is not all that fun. It ends up being more work than it seems upfront. I'm perfectly fine with it as I'm a student with a lot of time, but its not for everyone.

silicon2401 5 years ago | | |

how feasible/worth it would it be to build a hackintosh out of a regular PC? I just built a PC and am trying to keep it as a kind of shell (nothing on it that I can't easily replace, like steam games, etc), so I've considered tinkering with it to make a hackintosh, if it's possible

allenu 5 years ago |

I'm an macOS/iOS developer and I was on a 2013 13" MacBook Pro that was on its last legs. I finally decided to just buy a current-gen replacement. I need this machine to do day to day work and it was just dog slow (and battery dying), so I didn't have too many options. I suppose I could've got a replacement battery installed, but not sure if all the perf issues I encountered would go away.

My reasoning was I need it now and I feel like I could still get a few years out of it (Apple will likely support it even while moving to ARM).

sawaruna 5 years ago |

I bought a new MacBook Pro a couple of months ago, just before the ARM announcement even though it was rumoured. Like others have mentioned, I’m not too keen on buying the first gen of the ARM laptops. If they or the second gem are that appealing, the resale value of the one I bought should still be ok.

The only worry is, if you plan to keep it for a long time, how long will macOS support the Intel line. I know Apple said they would, but iirc the PPC —> Intel change caused the PPC macs to stop being supported after 2 years.

sliken 5 years ago |

I have a i9 mbp bought a few months ago.. don't. Get the i5 or i7. The i9 is expensive, gets impressively hot quickly under load, and makes the keyboard too hot to use and makes a fair bit of noise.

Whatever the fraction of performance the i5/i7 is, anything that's cooler and quieter is worth it and you don't likely notice the performance difference anyways.

Numerous things cause the fan to run flat out, for example crashplan.

maz1b 5 years ago |

Yes, I'd say so.

The ARM based iteration that Apple will ship will be good, potentially great even, but it doesn't change the fact that it will be the first iteration.

Apple will be supporting Intel for at least a couple of yeas, seeing as they just introduced the most beefy MBP 16 inch and the refreshed iMac and iMac Pro along with the Mac Pro.

SomeHacker44 5 years ago |

My personal solution is to stop buying Apple altogether. Unless you need a Mac (i.e., you do Apple specific development), you have a much broader set of choices. If you can wean yourself off Logic (try Live, perhaps) then you can get better hardware at lower prices. Just my opinion.

wsinks 5 years ago | |

Out of curiosity, what are you buying? I want to have a better home computer that can run Ableton & software, but I do love the paradigm of OSX + terminal Bash.

theodric 5 years ago | |

Linux is terrible on the desktop and Windows can go die in a fire. Looks like Apple gets my money!

dencodev 5 years ago | | |

I'm a life long Windows user and fan and I recently bought a Macbook Air and love it. It's so much better than the $1800 windows laptop I've had for the past two years. Granted the windows laptop is for gaming and they're very different devices.

runjake 5 years ago |

I have an ARM DTK, and 3 weeks after, bought a 16" MBP.

Everything works, I can virtualize any OS I want.

No regrets.

That said, if you don't need to buy now, then don't -- especially when it comes to Apple gear.

rurban 5 years ago |

So you'll get two problems. #1 Intel + #2 Mac.

Much better would be to solve both problems by buying a good and 2x cheaper and 3x faster AMD laptop with Linux. Like a Lenovo.

room271 5 years ago |

I think you should wait if you can. See what the new ARM macs are like. If they're good buy one, else get an Intel one then. It's only a few months.

csense 5 years ago |

No. Buy a PC and install Linux.

smallstepforman 5 years ago | |

You mis-spelled Haiku ;)

dddw 5 years ago | | |

theodric 5 years ago |

sixothree 5 years ago |

If you want more than 5 years out of this machine I would not. Just a personal opinion.