Before anyone downvotes or questions if Pixel uses Stock Android, ask yourself why Pixels have Pixel exclusive features not available in AOSP or not used by Android 1 phones like Nokia
If they can make iPhones in India, they can certainly figure out how to build competitive, inexpensive phones to replace those made in China.
Ads in default apps, user data collection and selling the said collected data.
CCP has a unit within almost every Chinese company making sure they adhere to CCP policy it's impossible to avoid when data is on the other side of the fence.
is there some kind of signature you can use to ascertain that the code you have is what's actually on the device ?
Is it possible to do the same for the SIM (as I understand it, it is its own microsystem and intelligence companies have already _at least_ attempted to insert their code in there) ?
what about play services or its equivalent ? These are often closed source and have lots of system permissions (since they handle lots of capabilities, they need a broad access).
edit : for clarity, I don't think it is a bad idea, I just wonder how doable it is.
I own both.
I do think India is going on a slippery slope now. With Tiktok, one can even make a case of it being used to manipulate sentiments and being used for propoganda, but that argument can hardly be made for a game like PubG. It also brings into question whether the ruling government can disrupt a business on its whim of the day.
Also, as far as I understand India is far more dependent economically on trade with China then China is on India. Do they really want to start a trade war with China?
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/01/indian-special...
I'd venture to say many apps are against _everyone's_ interest due to the caustic effects on society they have.
> India has emerged as the fastest growing app market in the world with 19 billion apps downloaded in 2019, up from 6.55 billion in 2016, according to data from analytics and market intelligence firm App Annie’s State of Mobile 2020 report published last week.
> Indians have spent only $120 million on mobile apps whereas China dominates mobile spending with $48 billion, which is 40% of total revenue generated through mobile apps.
> In-app subscriptions contributed to 96% of spend in top non-gaming apps.
https://entrackr.com/2020/01/india-is-fastest-growing-market...
Some background:
> PM Narendra Modi on Sunday urged startups and entrepreneurs to develop innovative “toys and games, for India and of India” to meet domestic demand and increase its share in the global toy business, estimated at Rs 7 lakh crore. He also called upon people to support indigenously developed apps which could replace the ones currently in vogue and are controlled by foreign companies.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/...
Most people own Android phones where they can sideload apps downloaded from some third party APK website (of questionable trustworthiness)
iPhones have negligible penetration in India so are not even a part of the equation.
1+ or Xiaomi or Huawei, they can't really do anything about it.
They have to track users to be not banned.
Jio already proudly claims, No Chinese Equipment on their network.
80% tool and machinery market is owned by China.
We simply can't afford German, US or Taiwan tools/machineries.
And if it's gone, big players will not affected by small players will have major problem. Getting manufacturing permission in India is not easy and very resource intensive.
I can't imagine this goes on and continues escalating long before China reacts strongly.
What is China's response going to look like? I feel uneasy that their response is going to light the fire even more.
(not affiliated with them in anyway or form, but I do work on anti-censorship tech).
I would just suggest third party persons reading both this and above post to visit and analyze it for themselves.
I tried to use it for some travel advice but what I noticed was just sheer negativity and an echo chamber where any contrarian opinion is suppressed. I wonder if the irony of doing this and then complaining about suppression of dissent by the current establishment is lost on them.
I've always heard they ban people. Never seen any proof.
They ban people that abuse directly at a user I think. Or do personal promotion/spam.
> They're active, from time to time, on r/India as well.
I'm all for challenging government surveillance and censorship. But the irony here is laughable given r/India's propensity to hand out bans like chocolates for anyone not subscribing to the groupthink.
try /r/indiadiscussion which is right leaning or /r/unitedstatesofindia which claims to be center
Banning or not sufficient case has not been made in the public, only a cryptic communique from the Govt is all.
What exactly was the threat from PUBG, which is not there in other games?
PUBG has an installed base of 50 million in india (atleast), would love to see which other alternatives they jump to .. COD or free fire
VPN for a game is intolerable in my experience..
I wonder what action these companies will take with this ban or what leverage China may try to use to de-escalate the situation.
[1]: https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/24/tiktok-sues-the-u-s-govern...
China isn't dumb, Indian justice system doesn't result in any justice for businsines unless ruling party's hand are greased.
Is there some reason you think it would be?
There is a raging pandemic. Massive recession. Potential war with China. Internet bans. Crackdown in Kashmir.
There has to be some questions?
The first real disaster to the Indian economy was the billions in retroactive taxes that were applied to telecoms. And then the attempt made by the government to break through the corporate firewalls and extract that money from foreign parents. That hit FDI immediately.
That was followed by demonetization, extremely poor rollout of GST, a terribly executed lockdown and subsequent reopening, and now the arbitrary control over Chinese companies when China is probably the largest private investor in India right now. All these things are hurting India with little benefit to show for, other than jingoistic support for the ruling party.
India is yet another example of “<Country> First” parties coming in and taking actions which undermine the absolute fundamentals of what the country is and damaging it and its citizens in so many ways.
Make life terrible for your citizens and blame China while looting your citizens left right and center is apparently a winning strategy in multiple countries.
Of course, India still has long way to go regarding Ease of Doing Business, with byzantine land and permit laws, capital crunch for MSME etc.. Some states like UP, Gujarat are trying to get around byzantine laws by abolishing them for few years. And of course GDP will contract after complete lockdown for a quarter.
1. https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/modis-incentive-sch...
2. https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/modis-incentive-sch...
I do not fully agree with some of the other points made, but this I completely disagree. There are many reasons the banning of Chinese money and influence in India is a long term strategic security issue.
For the immediate short-term, there are Chinese tanks, fighter planes, artillery and soldiers gathering across the border with India, with multiple incidents and provocations. India still has the debacle of 1962 Sino-Chinese war fresh in it's mind. Couple that with the recent aggressive posturing, land grabs and general disregard for the rights of other countries displayed by China, it is obvious why Chinese capital and companies have to be banned or reduced.
You cannot have trade / exchanges with a country that is on the verge of attacking you. The very fact that China chose a military display of power to provoke India, very clearly shows that China does not respect India and it's sovereignty.
Now you may couple this with other aspects of Indian domestic and foreign policies, but those have to be solved through other channels. Not by military force.
Perhaps you are from the US, and believe that global flow of capital is more important and sacred than other issues, but I would encourage you to have a look from a different perspective.
Investments by Chinese companies in various countries around the world makes it clear that China is trying to influence internal politics of other nations through it's money and loans.
Please read how Chinese companies have wreaked havoc in Africa and South-east Asia.
At this point of time, China simply cannot be trusted by India and Indians. Neither should other countries. Because, in the long term, China has plans for world domination and being a super power. But that is not based on sound values, like that in the US constitution, but based on authoritarian diktats and a world view where Chinese usually see no one is their equal or even close to being one.
People went on a rampage in *religious ( Taliban linked)" gatherings, India didn't had much cases but these bunch of people made sure the cases spread.
It's the people to he blamed for the lockdown spread
This might not be that true for India. Related subthread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24355659
China and India are economic giants - it'd would be preferable that they not see each other as not friends.
I'm not even sure what that means but I suspect that's intentional. From my reading though it doesn't sound like India is doing this as economic sanctions or for the health/safety/welfare of citizens (which would be the typical reasons for a democracy to ban an import). Instead it seems the government has decided that allowing citizens to access this information presents some sort of national security threat.
They copied Whatsapp but removed the end to end encryption. They copied Zoom and removed the decent security. They copied amazon and started JioMart, whose apps look exactly the same.
Am waiting for them to start Jioogle, as an alternative search engine.
Future of India, Jio edition
Once Jio is a monopoly, you'll have to get JioMilk from JioCow which'll be grazed on JioFarms using JioGrass in JioContainers. The cows will drink JioWater which'll come from JioMonsoon from JioRiver on JioMountain.
You'll also use JioApps on JioAndroid (* in partnership with Google) which you'll buy from JioMart which'll use JioRouter and JioFiber on Jio sim card, it'll use JioDart for delivery and the delivery guy will use JioHonda bike using Reliance for petrol on JioRoad (special roads to be used only by Jio Customers) breating JioAir (special air for Jio customers), biker will use JioGlass which'll connect to JioNet using JioVast for virus protection.
You'll also use JioVators in JioMalls to go up and down the floors watch a JioCinema in the JioMall, walk on JioTiles use JioRailings.
You'll get JioPlants from JioNursery which'll be plucked from JioForest growing on JioSoil.
You'll vote in JioElections using JioEVMs while standing in JioLines having a JioVoterCard while living in a Jiocracy.
https://np.reddit.com/r/india/comments/hsuglq/the_future_of_...
First you copy badly, then you copy well, then you improve.
Baby steps.
> Chinese apps have always been a security risk
I don't disagree. But I find this phrasing a little unclear. National security and broadly speaking security are different. Indian apps and services don't fare well in the latter category.
> but there are alternatives.
Yes, but why haven't they seen the same growth naturally? The top grossing page is filled with more Indian apps only recently due to the political atmosphere. What happened before?
Indian companies and developers have a cultural advantage and market understanding both of which are important for entertainment services to take off such as games. What's the reason behind the lag? Can you give examples of alternatives that were well established before this year?
> Mostly youth will be annoyed by lack of their favorite time-waster apps
This mentality doesn't help. This is discouraging individuals from experimenting with creative outlets in the country. That would have given us more Indian games opposed to china filling the market. E-sports is a big industry and is only growing. How do you expect anyone to innovate here when they are demonized by culture for taking interest in these games?
Surely, the problem is people aren't educated on topics such as addiction and they are considered as taboos.
In Morocco, people would just go to the Souk and have a guy do it for them. Same in most countries of the sort.
Also, on android, you literally just have to download the .APK and follow the on-screen instructions.
You'll literally get thousands of results of spam apps just directly named "VPN FOR PUBG" or "VPN UN BLOCK PUBG GROUNDS BATTLE PLAYER GAME CALL OF DUTY SPONGEBOB ESPONJA BOB", all of which are malware.
I just checked for myself, and this is pretty much how it is. The publishers behind this garbage have hundreds of uploaded apps, all of which are effectively the same one but with different names like "UNBLOCK P U B G PAKISTAN" or "VPN FOR PUBG PLAYER FORT NIGHT", and a random one loaded virtually every single data-exfiltration SDK known to man, and several known to animals.
I knew an Iranian women who told me in Iran everyone knew how to setup and configure a VPN due to the restrictions they have in place.
It's that way western countries because we don't have such restrictions.
In the few Chinese that do pay for VPNs, most women use it to access Instagram for celebrities, most men for porn on Twitter.
Leaving that aside, bans have a very real impact, even if there are other channels to access banned content. You cannot advertise banned content, you cannot distribute it en-masse, you cannot hold competitions, etc, etc. All these have massive effects on the marketing and sales channels.
Sure, some %age of people will use it from VPNs and stuff, but those are few and far between.
In case of online games, people may simply move to other games like Fortnite or what not.
I know tech-savvy software developers of mine, who hardly side load apps. Why? Side loading apps when a secure and curated app store is available is generally avoided due to security and other issues.
In India, with every smartphone having digital payment apps, and the prevalence of scams and frauds, most middle class, urban teens and adults will generally avoid side loading apps. You can safely assume that many in rural areas, are not even aware of side loading stuff.
Some have even dies due to addiction. [2]
[1]- https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/delhi/2020/aug/17/pu...
[2] - https://www.scoopwhoop.com/news/16-year-old-addicted-to-pubg...
There are many more. I just gave a single example.
They may also force pubg to include a unique device ban. You can't change device ID without rooting your device.
See: https://developer.android.com/training/articles/user-data-id...
Talking heads in India say these measures are Sun-Tsu like and mesmerized the enemy —Obviously the talking heads are propagandists, but on the other hand this is about the skirmishes on the Himalayas.
If China really wants to retaliate, it can sanction the WITCH companies and force any multinational who wants to be in China to not use them. This will also benefit competitors in other developing countries like Phillipines or Pakistan.
India is playing with fire here. Especially dropping out of RCEP, the risk being encircled economically.
China is playing the long game and will continue to do so, notably by continuing to develop Belt and Road.
Its logical. If you apply logic.
> Its the response of a sovereign nation in order to secure the data of its citizens which.
That's... contradictory?
Pure Logic.
It is funny to see on twitter some people accusing other side's aggression yet boasting about victory of getting further across LAC.
I notice from my own country that the power around the sitting government has been strengthened over the COVID-pandemic and the opposition is very weak.
I can only imagine how things would centralise further had my country also been under the threat of war.
How people are looking at it:
> raging pandemic
It is not his fault. (to some extent they are correct. Covid and India, was like lighting a match in a haystack. Central Govt.'s response to Covid has been far less shambolic than the numbers make it look)
> Massive recession
Modi gets to blame it on Covid. Demonetization and an unclear fiscal policy have just as much to do with it. So, he is only 50% correct.
> Potential war with China
I don't exactly blame him for this either. He seems to actually have bipartisan support for this. China is pretty much trying to take over Indian land, so the reaction is warranted.
> Crackdown in Kashmir
Kashmir in Modi's era is a weird mix of success and failure. The removal of article 370 is a great idea that would allow Kashmir to finally reintegrate properly. The opposition to it was also muted, since it was a bipartisan goal of both Indian national parties. Modi just had the mandate and right votebank to do it.
The reintegration process however, was slower than expected, and led to a period where Kashmiris experienced loss of freedom that was looked down upon by many. It has been getting better, but it could still be faster.
> Internet bans
Can I say, I absolutely approve of these in India. The pace of spread of mis-information on mom&pop groups on whatsapp is unbelievable. There are many bad faith actors who use crises to incite riots. A few hour internet or whatsapp blackout is absolutely essential to govern in a reasonable way in India.
__________________
Modi is not good for India.
I do not like him.
But, the west and Indian left-elite completely miss what's wrong with him. The rising popularity of Modi while the whole left-establishment shouting that his time is over is as clear as it gets.
So, I'll enumerate what I think Modi's biggest issues are, in ascending order.
1. Lack of seasoned/qualified generals to run a full cabinet. (the death of Jaitley, Sushma, Parrikar made it worse)
2. Over-reliance on India's tired and stagnant bureaucrat class to make up for it, instead of external experts.
3. Homogenizing the Hindu community at large, to form a bipolar nation (Hindus vs Muslims = BJP vs Congress).
4. Centralizing control (very Indira-esque... really, to undertand Modi, just ask : "what would Indira do")
_________________
Modi didn't happen out of nowhere.
The complete incompetence of the Indian National Congress at mounting anything resembling an opposition is primary to Modi's rise. A hero only exists, when they have a demon to kill. As long as the INC continues to try to draw from the drying well of nepotistic 'Gandhi-name' goodwill, it will continue down the death spiral they are in.
If there was a silver lining, maybe Modi will force the rise of a more socially open and meritocratic left in India.
India doesn't have a strong and credible opposition. Otherwise, with the economy in shambles due to a series of shitty decisions like demonetization/poor implementation of GST etc, any component front shouldn't have much difficulty mobilizing popular support.
Could you point to some specific cheap phones by those companies so I could see if I can find comparable phones by non-Chinese companies?
https://www.91mobiles.com/samsung-galaxy-m01-core-32gb-price...
Half of the the things you mentioned are already a reality.
People fear education here. I think about why and can only come with few theories.
0] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8503025/Chinas-digi...
1] https://www.scmp.com/tech/policy/article/3016183/inside-chin...
I had meant, "Technically iPhones are assembled in China also."
On Antutu benchmark, the Redmi is almost 5x higher [0]. So I don't think they can be considered "similar".
[0]: https://gadgetversus.com/processor/mediatek-mt6739-vs-mediat...
[0] https://git.frostnerd.com/PublicAndroidApps/smokescreen / https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.frostnerd....
It's built into android.
Private DNS is available since Android 9 (or around 40% of over 2B+ devices).
Nebulo works with Android 5+ and Intra with Android 4+ (close to a 100% of all Androids out there).
Facebook was blocked by China in 2009. WeChat wasn't even started till 2011.
Facebook cannibalized social networks in the US and homegrown networks abroad. Though we'd never know, I'd believe they would have done the same in China.
India is a fragmented country and the nationalism that western liberals cry about is the one of the few Centripetal forces pulling the fragmented states together and giving a semblance of cohesion in policy and governance.
I think the government nets capture lots of people. Anyone who is trying to avoid it can but those groups tend to be middle class or higher. So maybe instead of 99% it's like 51%?
She hadn't been back to see her family for 10 years for fear of not being able to come back due to not having her green card yet. She finally got it and we were all super happy for her.
What you're saying might be true, I never got a good sense of how rich or poor her family was, but she was always studying, always trying to be better. It was a very sharp contrast to most/all Americans I know.
She came to this country through drive rather than money, of that I have no doubt.
Let's not look at a model where less than 2% of the population could vote as some brilliant stroke of foresight. It was created by aristocrats for aristocrats.
Mind you, this post does not advocate for direct democracy, but the origin myth of the founding fathers always needs to be looked at with a bit more context then it is usually afforded.
And in that I kinda agree; an educated population is Important for a functioning democracy. While the mindset/culture/resource limitations of the time resulted in that being both discriminatory and classist, it's different today since we have universal standards of education.
Whether our current standards are good enough is a different argument
And their writings about representative democracy and fears about the typical citizen not being qualified to make policy decisions applied to those white landowning men. The voting population was entirely aristocratic equals and yet they still didn't think direct democracy would work.
Yeah umm that is just completely false.
China barely imports anything from India so there's not even a place to start.
Wiki infobox suggests that they just have 3% exports to India, they can choose to take that hit. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China
It’s like the US which is currently undermining itself in some sort of nonsensical effort to match China in the very things we don’t like about China and ends up hurting China.
In any case, large gatherings in both religious and political contexts have continued during lockdown. The lockdown has had no apparent success in reducing the rate of new infections. [2]
[1] https://indianexpress.com/article/india/tablighi-jamaat-case...
[2] https://www.ft.com/content/53d946cf-d4c2-4cc4-9411-1d5bb3566...
But the comment made an inaccurate claim regarding the Taliban (which is not relevant in any way related to Covid infections in India) and neglected to provide any sources for their own claim while demanding sources from their parent.
That's almost everyone. Yesterday, I opened a brand new budget samsung phone. Despite not logging in anything and declining every box I could, it was automatically filled with invasive apps. It came with made in India sticker.
At least with xiaomi, I can flash it with a custom rom and remove the bloatware. Many alternatives lock down their phone.
The other phones that I would trust are expensive and out of reach for many Indians such as the pixel (their last device was banned in India).
Over the past few years it has updated and installed new bloatware multiple times and even re-enabled Facebook background services.
You'll need to check if your snapdragon or exynos for compatability.
It gets you the latest version of android (since samsung decided that 2 years is all they're willing to support their flagship phone for) and a complete lack of bloatware.
I'll add that some apps (noteably netflix and banking) can throw a hissy fit on rooted phones and you will have to use something like Magisk to get the app store to function correctly and allow you to download the apps.
Xiaomi phones have a waiting period, you are required to log in with a Mi account then use the phone connected to the internet for 7 days to be able to unlock it.
Samsung here seems way more user friendly. And with Treble GSI ROMs, you can flash a custom OS on any phone, except Samsung has less problems on average with the kernel (ignoring their security features) compared to Xiaomi which requires a custom kernel in many cases to enen boot a GSI.
Yes. I do know that. Even I use a custom rom on a redmi phone
Not consistently and many don't have much support in the ROM market anymore.
Plus, the devices are pretty much just worse than Xiaomi's, so they don't get much attention from the ROM scene.
Another option that annoys me (but I understand it is user friendly to have it enabled by default) is that when you install an app it automatically switches on Data and WiFi access to it (and the firewall blocks it until I allow it).
They are getting into the advertising business. Advertisers and privacy/security don't go together.
India is just getting used to the internet. Massive market. Billion users.
As Jio, if I'd clone Zoom, I would add encryption, so that only I, Jio, would be able to analyze that traffic. Same thing with WhatsApp.
e2ee in JioChat was just not even implemented. They just copied whatsapp.
Kashmir is the most important strategic post bordering 3 nuclear nations at war-ish with each other.
It is landlocked, with each country controlling different parts of it, and 2 claiming it in entirety.
J&K is a 3 part territory, of which 99%+ of Leh, Ladakh and Jammu want to be a part of India. So, if Kashmir was to be independent, it would be tiny, vulnerable and entirely dependent on neighboring states, that it would be at war with.
Now, there is also the fact that over the last 200 years, native Hindu Kashmiri communities have been driven out (literally, by violence) of Kashmir, so Kashmir independence can't exactly be unilateral.
Lastly, India is a proper democratic nation. States have full rights and religious + cultural diversity is celebrated. I am as biased as it gets, but I'd say India is the best option among Pakistan, India and PRC run China.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/11/forgotten-massacr...
There are at least a dozen conflicting historian accounts on what and how things went down in the India-Pakistan partition.
I am sure my recollection of it isn't the most faithful to the yet unknown truth, but I am certain in it being more reliable than AlJazeera of all media outlets.
Depending on what you read, separatism in both places is either fuelled by fundamentalist ideologies or right for self determination. Kashmir is far more tricky though based on how the separatism has been fueled into an armed conflict by a neighbor.
To understand the sentiment in both places, you will need to read the history of both countries, and no it doesn't just start from 1940s.
I'd imagine JioChat is encrypted in transit, isn't it?
The reason e2ee is necessary in india is people share all things online. Especially in chat. Passports, certificates, health related stuff. We are very open online.
For example, here is a guy publishing his goverentment issued caste certificate. On twitter. https://twitter.com/BhainsdehiWale/status/118002364906923212...
They do not know that anybody can see that photo. They don't know encryption,privacy and stuff. Internet is 1-2 years old here (for the masses)
It maybe be improved by the loss of PUBG due to the gain in productivity /s
More than 1.25 Cr have lost jobs this quarter.
Unlike the US's tech export restrictions though, anything China makes India could probably find an alternative supplier for, just at a higher cost and lower volume. It'll still hurt, just not as much as being pressured by the US.
Not having access to medicines or say equipment used in your power plants will.
This isn't a polite way to ask someone to provide evidence for their claim, it's a demand dressed up as a courteous request with the implication that the comment it was replying to was not "exactly and to the point" and that the author has some sort of onus to improve the quality of their conversation. But in fact it's really just a lazy comment because it costs almost nothing to post and yet puts significantly higher burden on the other side, especially because it is picky. Doing this is a classic example of engaging in bad faith.
(Good ways of asking for a citation might include "I don't agree with that, in fact I don't really think that I can find any examples of this occurring the way you have laid out. Would you mind giving some examples to show this actually happening?" This allows the author to provide sources without being left open to an immediate response that those sources are not "exactly and to the point" and is actually a deferential want rather than an imposition.)