The Most Backdoor-Looking Bug I’ve Ever Seen(buttondown.email) |
The Most Backdoor-Looking Bug I’ve Ever Seen(buttondown.email) |
I don't think people give credit for just how deep this actually does cut. On one project I worked on, which stored obscenely sensitive information, their product manager gave a speech about password security and told us he had a better algorithm than bcrypt. You couldn't explain why this was a bad idea - he wasn't taking feedback. When it landed, I found the botched the algorithm so this "sql injection detection code" basically changed every character to a ' mark. You just needed the right number in a password and it would always match. So I logged a bug, used it to push that they just use bcrypt, I got a big story about how he knows exactly what he was doing and he would fix the bug. It was "fixed" for a few days. Apparently what happened was, the developer didn't know how to use git properly and copied an older file on top the repo and brought the bug back. After it was known, disclosed, and every one was told it was fixed. The algorithm turned out to only handle a-z, and every other character was left in place. So I went though this again. Same speech about incredibly great design. They could have easily snuck a backdoor in because I never looked at 90% of the code, but this ongoing nonsense was 100% Hanlon's razor.
It is encrypted with a per user key known to WhatsApp.
That means for a third party to access the chats, they need Google to hand over the data, and Facebook to hand over the key.
The logical next step to add would be for Google to additionally encrypt the data with the users logon password or something derived from it. Google won't do this anytime soon for business reasons.
> It is encrypted with a per user key known to WhatsApp.
This is no longer true! For a few years now. The backup is stored on Google Drive in plain text.
https://faq.whatsapp.com/android/chats/about-google-drive-ba...
1) The backup can only be made to Google drive, you cannot create a manual backup to a location of your chosing
2) The backup is created in a secret folder that cannot be accessed by the user
3) The backup is deleted if you delete your account. (not much of a backup, eh?)
4) You can only create per-channel exports, but this won't export the entire chat, it will export up to ~12MB of recent media, and ignore the rest, silently. WhatsApp would only share the last 40 messages of a 4-year-old chat because the last few messages contained a few images.
This leads to inability to restore a backup if you forget your password and need to reset it.
That's going to lead to screams/tears from a lot of folks who don't realise those implications.
National intelligence agencies (plural) would already have both.
Are historic chats that important to have them backed up? To me, if there's anything of value, i'll save it via other means...
How many times things looks like meaningless when they are said but have a lot of values at a later date?
For example, sometimes you wonder, "when was it that time when XXX event happened". Or "I remember that one day someone told me that he had the same problem as me, but who was it and what was his solution?"
Otherwise, we are used to share thousands of links and snippets with my friends that we usually discuss. A lot of time, after a very long time (sometimes years), for some reason we remember that something or link about a topic was discussed long time ago, and then it is convenient to look into the history with keywords to find back the links and what was said at that time!
I made a card for my girlfriend on our 5th anniversary by going back and finding our first messages to each other on WhatsApp, and putting a screenshot of them on the front of the card with some corny message. She balled up and was crying for quite some time. Anyway we are broken up now, but that's not the point!
These things really do have sentimental value, and it's not always obvious at the time.
Do I have a backup per contact? Per app? Are they stored in my Google Drive? In flat files on my local PC? What happens if my PC's hard drive crashes? How do I automatically keep the backups up to date? How do I keep them in sync? How do I access and query them remotely if I'm not at my PC?
Now multiply that across every different service you use, and that's a lot of mental effort that I don't want to go through if I don't have to. Most users don't want to either.
- Half-admission that the clickbait title might not apply (at the end of the article by mentioning Hanlon's Razor): Check.
- Actual good criticism on "don't roll your own crypto": Check (this is not a sarcasm, I liked that part of the article very much).
- Casual mention that the incident is from 7 years ago but implying that today there's a backdoor: Check.
- HN going crazy negative when Telegram is mentioned, as it always happens: Check.
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I am not shilling for Telegram. I have no reason to. I can switch to Signal with my most important contacts in the space of one hour if I wanted to. I never invested any money in them either. I won't get sad if they get nuked from orbit tomorrow.
But it's really baffling how non-constructive most Telegram HN coverage is, both articles and comments. Sure, they have no bulletproof end-to-end encryption of messages. So, like 99.9% of all apps on all app stores then? Some generic marketing on the homepage using vaguely non-accurate language ("secure chats")? So, again, like 99.9% of the apps that have a page and put marketing lingo on them?
What's so uniquely awful about Telegram?
It's legitimately intriguing how hostile HN gets at the mention of Telegram. There might be some interesting sociological study hidden there somewhere.
Far too few services do strategic logging of data useful to catch attackers like this. Many attackers won't attack if they know traces will be left which can point to them.
This blog post is far too charitable.
While a backdoor is not a bug but a feature, it helps to disguise a backdoor as a bug (i.e. plausible deniability). I know of one instance (in MS Windows) where the backdoor feature was not even hidden so much:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY
That's why we need opensource. It's a hedge against tyranny.
It’s been two decades, and nobody has been able to explain how it would’ve been used.
Maybe Yandex in Russia only?
The backdoor was hidden in the plain sight: the s-box was said to be randomly picked, but years long evasive answers of authors about cryptographic properties of the box made people to think that there was something really not right with it.
If not for that specifically putting aim at the s-box, there would have been no chance anybody found that.
3 years later, and Perrin's paper comes, and it is discovered that almost a new domain of math is buried in that s-box.
Nobody yet discovered what unusual math properties of that s-box do, but nobody now doubts it being a backdoor of some kind.
A TG server was sending a "salt" to clients in order to randomize keys (telegram claim) when in fact the "salt" turned out useless in terms of encryption and the only reasonable explanation for the "nonce" was using it as a backdoor to perform MITM attack.
You decide whether it was done intenionally or because of lack of sleep/understanding
PS. an original author got 100k$ for finding/exposing a potential backdoor.
Impossible to succeed at this level without making a few enemies.
That it might not apply is already in the title. backdoor-looking already explicitly expresses that.
> - HN going crazy negative when Telegram is mentioned, as it always happens: Check.
glass houses...
And nobody here is claiming that Telegram is "uniquely awful", it's just that Telegram is more notable than 99.9% of other apps, in a field (messengers) where both privacy is generally more looked at and alternatives that are widely considered better in that regard exist, all the while Telegram is widely advertised/recommended as "secure" despite being worse in that regard. On the other hand, this criticism isn't new and widely known. That's why it's called out a lot, and tbh both (paraphrased) other unrelated apps have problems too and (unsourced) people surely understand that it's just advertising and Telegrams limitations are really bad defenses.
EDIT: and I suspect Telegram is especially annoying because it's otherwise really good, so if it also solved the security question it'd be a no-brainer recommendation.
That would be quite hilarious and paradoxical: to attract so much negative reactions because the app is very good but it doesn't do everything as the tech-savvy crowd expects (in terms of cryptography). But I can see it being the true sentiment. Interesting perspective, thank you for it.
Telegram puts its users in danger by lying to them. They claim to be a secure, encrypted messenger but do not actually encrypt chats.
Then there’s the backdoor...
>I am not shilling for Telegram
:)
Even better, make a messenger that does encrypt chats. Make it paid. Prove its end-to-end encryption properties. I'll buy it and advocate for it to my friends and family.
In any case, the constant hate is (a) very tiring and (b) very uncharacteristic for HN.
Further, the fact that this was caught so quickly is in some sense a vindication of Telegram's model - even in its infancy when it had orders of magnitude fewer users, the fact that the client was open source allowed someone to quickly spot a vulnerability.
The verdict? IMO Telegram secret chats are probably secure (90% certain), but if I were plotting a murder or something, I wouldn't do it over a smartphone app anyway. There's just too many leaky, complex layers in the stack, some of which aren't even open, and quite dubiously so. If security is a life-or-death situation for you, you'd be a fool to use any smartphone app.
What saddens me is that Signal seems to be the go to alternative. Which is obviously more secure but still centralised and has a terrible UX (e.g. drains the battery of my laptop very fast when I tried it the last time). Why not directly go for Matrix / Element.io for a secure and decentralised (like eMail) approach? Do you really want to upload your contacts?
I quite like Telegram as well but I am under no illusions that it's bulletproof in terms of protecting my chats. I still think it protects them better than WhatsApp though, by the mere virtue of not being hosted in the USA where you can be ordered to give away an unencrypted dump of your database and keep silent about it until your grave.
And Wikipeida also says that the first version of the Signal Protocol is from 2013[2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TextSecure [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol
One of the most vocal critics was Moxie, who later founded Signal. It's ironic that 7 years after Snowden and Telegram, Signal the supposed more secure and privacy focused messaging app still has yet to gain any sizable foothold in the market. I think that says a lot about both Telegram and Signal's product strategies.
In regards to actually validating the protocol, the OP addresses this
>The current consensus seems to be that the latest version is not broken in known ways that are severe or relevant enough to affect end users, assuming the implementation is correct. That is about as safe as leaving exposed wires around your house because they are either not live or placed high enough that no one should touch them.
I wish people will stop repeating this nonsense. Just because they don't do end to end encryption by default, doesn't mean they don't encrypt, which implies messages are sent in plaintext.
There are plenty of reasons why they did what they did, and these questions are all available publicly in their FAQ or the founder's Telegram channel. Whether you agree with the trade-off or their explanations is up to you, but facts are facts.
It's still likely better than WeChat FB Messenger in terms of privacy. You just get to choose the devil, and some consider Russia no worse than Facebook (and all that it represents) or China.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Durov#Dismissal_from_VK
The problem with Telegram's crypto is that Nikolai Durov is super-smart - he has two Ph.Ds in mathematics - but he thinks he's smarter than everyone else in the world put together, so Telegram roll their own crypto all the time, and keep being a worked example of why "don't roll your own crypto" is a saying.
So please stick to facts and what can be reasonably proven, please. The rest is meaningless noise and mindless hate.
The author himself admits it's much more likely this was an amateurish mistake than some man-in-the-middle conspiracy. Did you make it until the end of the article?
They shipped a backdoor. It's pretty clear that Telegram is actively malicious. They haven't been caught again? They probably realized that the front door of not encrypting chats was sufficient.
>The author himself admits it's much more likely this was an amateurish mistake than some man-in-the-middle conspiracy
This is not at all what the author is saying.
You seem to be exposing a bias.
> The eight S-boxes of DES were the subject of intense study for many years out of a concern that a backdoor (a vulnerability known only to its designers) might have been planted in the cipher. The S-box design criteria were eventually published (in Coppersmith 1994) after the public rediscovery of differential cryptanalysis, showing that they had been carefully tuned to increase resistance against this specific attack. Biham and Shamir found that even small modifications to an S-box could significantly weaken DES.
At the very least I suppose we will be able to glean more knowledge out of it in the end.
> designers of Streebog and Kuznyechik purposefully hid a structure in this component. This structure is very strong, very uncommon and interacts in a non-trivial way with the other main component of Streebog.
> In light of these results, we urge security professionals to avoid these algorithms.
It's like this: imagine some government released plans for super-secure safe, and for some reason, deep in those plans, there is an instruction to make an 1/4" hole in the door, at the specific exact position. There is no justification or explanation for this hole, just a mention that it must be present or the safe is not going to be certified.
So people wonder why it was placed on the plan. If there were a good reason, why not tell it? Perhaps NSA/FSB has some new method to crack safes, and this hole is needed for it? Better be careful, and avoid using that specific safe model.
There are two beneficiaries of this change:
1) Intelligence and law enforcement agencies, which now have direct access to WhatsApp history for everyone who uses cloud backup (99.9% of users, if not 100%), without the need to 0day any specific phones, risk detection, or even have those phones on except occasionally.
2) Google, who can now mine your private conversations, metadata, etc.
(At a tiny storage cost for Google, for which they are likely compensated by the NSA)
If you can’t do this, then you certainly aren’t qualified to claim that such a backdoor exists.
Everything you said here was addressed by the OP. The connection to telegram servers is already encrypted, the only adversary this server-side RNG could possibly defend against is one that has access to the server.
There are lots of posts on HN I don’t care about, but I don’t think I’ve ever had the urge to make comments like yours.
> In any case, the constant hate is (a) very tiring and (b) very uncharacteristic for HN.
There are people who trust their life and liberty on these apps, I don’t think the “hate” towards Telegram is inappropriate at all.
And actually, I think that most of the time the HN community is far too positive about Telegram. Usually I see comments criticizing it get downvoted. Funny, no?
I see some people linking old articles and cryptography research, and some historic incidents. Good! That's arguing in good faith and I've read those with an interest, and upvoted them. "I don't trust Durov", which many of the HN comments about Telegram boil down to, is just noise. I don't want noise in threads where I want to find objective information. I am doing my part to improve HN by downvoting / flagging comments I see as noise or non-constructive attacks.
> Usually I see comments criticizing it get downvoted. Funny, no?
Filter bubbles then, I suppose. Seems we are both in our own and apparently neither of us is right in their generalization. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I can live with that.
You complain about the quality of discussion here, but do little to participate in a constructive manner.
If by calling out people who break HN's guidelines I am exposing a bias then okay, I am exposing a bias then.
Do you have a better cite or did you check directly recently?
https://github.com/YuriCosta/WhatsApp-GD-Extractor-Multithre...
I do not vouch for this repo, but it gets the job done.
The only creds required are your Google account creds. No per-user whatsapp keys necessary.
I haven't tried this specific tool yet (or others recently) but it was definitely possible in the past without requiring any key from FB/WA.
It's now "authenticate via SMS and pin (if enabled), or authenticate via SMS and wait 7 days (if pin enabled)"
> Media and messages you back up aren't protected by WhatsApp end-to-end encryption while in Google Drive.
That makes sense, why would you re-encrypt the messages with the end-to-end-key which is individual for each chat, if you could simply use a symmetric encryption for backups?
So the statement
> It is encrypted with a per user key known to WhatsApp.
could still hold true, there's no information contrary to that in the FAQ (but no information indicating another kind of encryption either).
>left the country with no interest in returning
Well, except for when he does
https://tjournal.ru/tech/52954-durov-back-in-ussr
http://uip.me/2016/04/dark-side-of-the-telegram/
https://lenta.ru/news/2017/03/20/durov/
https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-clai...
https://theoutline.com/post/2348/what-isn-t-telegram-saying-...
> Is Facebook Messaging encrypted messaging?
Facebook messaging is not "encrypted messaging" AFAIK.
But if you say it sends the messages unencrypted like people claim Telegram does I will probably point out that you are wrong even if I don't like Facebook at all.
end Edit.
--------
Tell me then: If you call point-to-point-encrypted "unencrypted", what do you call the old WhatsApp protocol from before Moxie helped them, which actually sent messages unencrypted? [1]
What do you call the files that Whatsapp store on my phone (messages.db or something) that I can transfer to my computer and open without any tooling besides a zip tool and SQLite?
Unencrypted -- ?
Even more unencrypted?
There is a reason why we keep repeating our plea to differ between unencrypted, point-to-point-encrypted and end-to-end-encrypted and it is not because we adore all of Telegrams decisions, at least not for all of us.
It is because precision often matters in engineering and I think especially for security work.
[1]: Irony over irony, I used to love them back then. I knew fixing the crypto part would be doable and they were such a nice company with such a nice business model which aligned so nicely with our interests as users.
Yes?
Seriously, please educate yourself first.
I was specifically replying to your complaint that non-E2E encrypted chats should not be called unencrypted because they had encryption in transit to the server. You're now shifting the conversation back to the E2E encryption they do have.
Oh, except the Windows and Linux clients don’t even support those.
Last I used Riot/Elements (the app the uses the Matrix network), I almost pulled my hair out. It was slow and buggy. Felt like I was using an alpha version of a software from the late 90s.
Telegram and WhatsApp are two very positive outliers in a sea of very bad messaging apps IMO.
Off The Record showed up in 2004 and was used over multiple instant messaging systems. OpenPGP was used over various IM systems before that...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TextSecure#/media/File:Signal_...
Then you go and look that up in your issue tracker.
>"I remember that one day someone told me that he had the same problem as me, but who was it and what was his solution?"
Ideally, you've that saved to your Wiki/FAQ Database or at least have it in your ticketing system.
That is, if we're talking about a professional setting - or some random "might be useful later" notes.
But still, this isn't something i am going to dig up in a random chat log - because if you're able to find / search for it there, chances are you are pretty close to the solution anyways...
A lot of things can look not useful and common at the current time, but have a lot of values in the future. But you can't document every step of your life.
For example, imagine that some friend tell you that his brother is currently working in Singapore and that everything goes well for him and all. But so far you have no relation to Singapore and don't travel so much.
Then 1 year later, you will unexpectedly be sent to Singapore for work and you would highly appreciate a contact there. At that point you remember that the brother of someone is there, but who was it?
You just have to search for 'singapore' in Telegram and you can get easily the reply to your question and so recontact the relevant friend.
Same thing when you are suddenly thinking about buying a Xiaomi phone, and you are wondering who was the friend that told you that he bought one 6 months ago to get his review.
But sure, the best thing to deal with that is to be able to 'backup/export' your history and also being able open/import it in a usable form.
Whatsapp mostly fails on both topics. You can't easily backup, otherwise it would be stored in clear in google drive, in an area that is not even accessible to you.
And then it is a sqlite db with proprietary format for fields, so so far nothing can display it properly offline.
For telegram, they have a good export/backup feature.
I don't know of anytool that would allow to browse your history nicely when loaded offline from backups, but as the format is open, that should be doable.
You missed the point, again. Not only does Telegram rely on your phone number to identify you, but unlike the competition it’ll happily send out your past conversation history to anyone who manages to take control of your phone number.
Actual encrypted messengers can’t do this.
>hosted in the USA
You think the UAE is better? I live here, it’s not. If the US government wants access to telegram conversation logs, the UAE government will happily retrieve them.
Many, myself included, are aware of this. I prefer it because if I get a newer iPhone tomorrow I still want all of my conversations and all history to be there. I question how many people can to a SIM takeover. No, it's not "everyone". Very few will actually do it and it seems it was a marketing tradeoff. Quite a normal practice and Telegram is not an outlier in this case.
> You think the UAE is better? I live here, it’s not. If the US government wants access to telegram conversation logs, the UAE government will happily retrieve them.
Sigh. Suspected, but never knew for sure. Thanks for letting me know. Now "all" that remains is for somebody to both incorporate end-to-end encrypted chats and allow synchronization of history between devices without a central server, in a single app, I suppose. But Telegram isn't that app and I am aware and okay with it.
I don't know where Telegram is hosted, but whenever I fire the desktop app there is always at least a google DNS request, sometimes some additional connections to google hosts. It certainly does seem to partially rely on the USA.
The answer is that it's distributed, so you would need court orders in an insane amount of countries to get any decrypted data from telegram
I already responded to those criticisms elsewhere but here goes: I never expected any messenger to do end-to-end encryption. I am quite aware how un-ergonomic such a messenger would be so I know that Telegram does little more than TLS protection of the network socket. And that's fine with me and with millions of others.
But I still don't get why Telegram is the constant target of HN. Why not WhatsApp? Viber? Or literally every other messenger? I challenge you to find such brutal and full of flagged comments threads not pertaining to Telegram. As said above, we both live in our own bubble but all WhatsApp threads I've seen lately only aim at the user's data privacy and almost nobody ever mentions that their "encryption" is also a glorified TLS and their claims for end-to-end encryption are very likely dubious and a pure PR stunt.
Admittedly some of the responses earlier -- which were very unconstructive -- got to me.
The amount of people who understand this certainly isn’t in the millions. The fact is that most Telegram users have no idea that their conversations aren’t encrypted, most people incorrectly assume that it’s more secure than whatsapp.
> WhatsApp threads I've seen lately only aim at the user's data privacy and almost nobody ever mentions that their "encryption" is also a glorified TLS and their claims for end-to-end encryption are very likely dubious and a pure PR stunt.
This is complete nonsense. Whatsapp uses the Signal Protocol. Their claims of end-to-end encryption are true (and easily verifiable! just pull out the debugger of your choice)
> Admittedly some of the responses earlier -- which were very unconstructive -- got to me.
I think your (perfectly understandable) misinterpretation was corrected in a rather polite manner, but you still wanted to argue after being corrected by multiple native english speakers.
I don't dispute this but apparently there's still a way for Facebook to give FBI et. al. un-encrypted chats, no? So is that truly encrypted?
> I think your (perfectly understandable) misinterpretation was corrected in a rather polite manner, but you still wanted to argue after being corrected by multiple native english speakers.
Yes and no. Being a native speaker doesn't excuse ambiguity and idiomatic expressions. I believe people who write in English on the internet have a duty to avoid idioms as much as possible. I am not a native speaker and easily misrepresented the meaning.
But, even the author corrected me so, okay.
As for polite... let's agree to disagree there. You are questioning my opinion that I get snarky replies but IMO it's clearly visible that no small amount of replies weren't made in good faith and were only aimed to express hurtful sarcasm.
Unless you have another interpretation of the Hanlon's Razor, it seems that he is saying this is a mistake and not a backdoor.
> They shipped a backdoor.
Did they? Might be. I am 50/50 about it, people do dumb mistakes with self-rolled crypto all the time and that's a sad reality. But who knows, it might be the first try to embed a backdoor.
My point is: being too sure one way or the either makes you biased. I err on the side of incompetence but I am open to the possibility that it was a first sloppy attempt at backdooring Telegram. Sadly we have no proof of either, so we speculate based on what's available.
As said in another comment, I am no cryptography expert. I simply argue against the very visible negative bias against Telegram which is accentuated even more by very childish snarks on almost any Telegram HN thread. That gets to me and it's not how HN should be.
I never argued that my opinion is a fact. I said how I arrived at my opinion and debate with people whether that's plausible or not [based on limited info]. The rest can be proven/rebuked by specialists.
It just sounds like the author simply doesn't want to get sued, after all it's generally impossible to prove that a backdoor is actually a backdoor.
>people do dumb mistakes with self-rolled crypto all the time
I've seen a plenty of those, this one just happens to look rather different than the typical implementation mistakes you see. There's no possible reason for this code to exists except to allow Telegram to decrypt secret chats.
In the end, we've got nothing to gain and a plenty lose by giving Telegram the benefit of the doubt.
There are numerous marketing studies that show people are most content when choices are made for them (e.g. in getting a new washing machine), as long as they know (or at least believe) they could have made another choice if they wanted to.
You and I discussed quite a bit already and we can't agree on many things -- but I can still see where Telegram's team is coming from in their security decisions. A balance between ergonomics and security has to be struck if you want wide adoption.
We likely both abhor how quick and easy it is for many users to just say "yeah, sure, get access to my contacts so I don't have to re-add my people one by one" -- I feel that this practice is responsible for trillions of personal data points sitting out there in warehouses waiting to be used for advertising profiling, but what can we do? Seems that this is what the people want.
Having stricter -- and thus non-ergonomic in terms of UX -- security as an opt-in is apparently the best we can do in this age. By "we" I mean "all programmers and corporations".
Before you say it: I used Matrix and Riot/Elements for several months. The app itself is hopelessly behind in basically everything: it's not responsive even on a very modern Linux laptop, it often hides messages (and shows them up again a few minutes later after the app somehow force-refreshes its UI by itself), synchronization of chats when logging in from a new device was almost non-existent and took minutes to recover a channel with like 30 messages (although I heard they are working on this)... Even notifications would fire 9 out of 10 times and I had to make it a habit to check the client every 10-15 minutes or so (since it was a work chat).
Very far from convenient. Not to mention part of the time non-functional.
Telegram makes security trade-offs, I have no doubts about it. But it's a damn good app in almost all regards -- and me and many others can forgive their lack of to-the-letter end-to-end encryption implementation.
If there's an app with such a good UX and polish like Telegram that also does end-to-end encryption and doesn't drown you in GPG-like keys and passwords management minutiae, I'll gladly switch tomorrow.
Case in point: the Hanlon's Razor mention definitely did mislead me in terms of your stance.
> Anyway, it’s been a while, the world is a different place now, and maybe Hanlon’s razor cuts deeper than I thought.
How else would you interpret it?
Neither is a good look for a security team, of course.
Would be curious to read a statement from Telegram's team though -- not that any team would ever admit to putting a backdoor...
What's this "Telegram behaviour"? Seriously, enlighten me -- this is not a snark. I've been following HN Telegram threads for a long time and I've only seen the two things I mentioned above.
It's really puzzling, especially in a world where a ton of very public and everyday software has much more flaws than Telegram. The whole very directed and non-HN-esque hate towards it does stands out.
Multiple official Telegram clients do not even support the "secret chats".
Right from their own website https://telegram.org/
>Private
>Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct.
This is a lie.
>Secure
>Telegram keeps your messages safe from hacker attacks.
This is a lie, you can even pull someones telegram message history by sim swapping them FFS.
I’d love to see a source for this.
> This is a lie, you can even pull someones telegram message history by sim swapping them FFS.
Well, the mobile telecoms still have no solution for SIM swapping and most software uses SIMs as a way to uniquely identify users. I've heard of -- and used -- messengers like Signal and Matrix and the added inconvenience for not using a SIM is definitely off-putting even for me as a techie. So I can't blame Telegram or any other app for using SIM identification -- it's flawed, that's well-known in the tech community, but I suppose somebody made the call to risk this because they wanted adoption and didn't want to make onboarding too hard?
---
I can agree on a generally somewhat misleading marketing being a reason for negativity. Even a functioning backdoor might still mean that messages are safe from most hacker attacks though; the backdoor is only used on demand (it's infeasible to use it all the time, that would take too much server resources and would put the onus on the eavesdroppers to provide extra infrastructure I think?) and the unencrypted data is served to whoever asked for it behind closed doors. That does not mean that any hacker can get their hands on it though, right?
But even a somewhat misleading marketing can't explain the violent reaction of most of HN when Telegram is mentioned -- at least it can't explain it to me. There's so much popular and very shady software out there and somehow Telegram eats all the flak while many other software packages receive very generous benefits of the doubt.
In any case, no hard feelings were intended anywhere.
But that's what mostly what I was saying (granted, I got worked up at one point because the blind stereotyping puts a black mark on HN's reputation in my eyes) is that indeed the situation is ambiguous and both possibilities are [mostly] equally likely.
That’s not what the post is saying.
> It's very biased and uncharitable
It’s not “very biased”, if you actually look at what Telegram did the balance of probabilities leans heavily towards “backdoor” and not “not backdoor”
Besides, look at Pavel Durovs flagkilled reply here. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Unless you put concrete % numbers on both sides then your replace is identical with the original.
...Bad faith? Most of HN has bad faith when it comes to Telegram. This place devolves to Reddit / 9GAG levels of childishness when Telegram is mentioned.
I think that's quite fascinating and it's a strange outlier. Yes -- strange, as in "not justified". They did nothing more wrong than a ton of other, much more widely used software, yet any mention of Telegram on HN brings about a big bandwagon of haters. Why do you think that is?
I am no cryptography expert. I judge by all the times I've seen programmers imagine they could do professional cryptography by themselves. Literally every time they fail. Thus, in my eyes it is more likely that Telegram's coders fell victim to the same illusion.
But I am not denying that it's possible it's the [beginnings of a] backdoor. The whole sub-thread is (a) my opinion on what's more likely and (b) calling out people who act snarky, offer no facts and demonstrate general negative bias.
It's really, really fishy.
The fact that a cryptographer might scoff and laugh at the proposition doesn't mean that a normal programmer couldn't fall victim to that illusion?
In any case -- yes. Both things are likely and you made a strong point for the "malice" side.
Still, it makes me wonder why would Durov run from Russia if he was willing to backdoor Telegram? Why not remain in Russia and backdoor it while being there? Why the extra trouble? Or maybe he didn't want to backdoor it for Russia but for other nation(s)?
> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Solid criticism with well laid-out arguments from you, no doubt.
> Besides, look at Pavel Durovs flagkilled reply here.
Since when do upvote / downvote count mean anything at all about somebody's opinion or statements? (I haven't read the comment though.)
Look, it's obvious you have a beef with Telegram / Durov. But you are not giving any arguments, only snark. That's breaking HN's guidelines last I checked.
Maybe do that. Not being snarky, you’re missing important context.
Still, he's an official public face and should know better. That I fully agree with.
Thanks for being one of the few to discuss constructively in this sub-thread. It's much appreciated.
