Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?

Why is America the 'no-vacation nation'?(cnn.com)

413 points by marcinw 15 years ago | 412 comments

leftnode 15 years ago |

There is a good article from another software developer around here who told his boss he was taking a 3 month vacation. He made the point the business needed him more than he needed it; he was a competent developer and could easily get work, didn't have any living/large financial dependencies. At first I thought it was absurd, but the more I thought about it, he was absolutely correct.

Take a long vacation some time. Even if you do have a family, save up enough money and go travel for a while. Take some decent time off work (4+ weeks). Let them fire you if they want. That's (one of my) my goal(s) over the next 2 years: take an extended vacation (I haven't taken more than a week off since I graduated college).

joss82 15 years ago | |

Here it is, and it's awesome:

http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vaca...

patja 15 years ago | | |

That is a good story, and I know as a manager I granted more than a few unpaid personal leaves of absence for top employees. Way better to have them come back refreshed and productive than to try to replace their domain knowledge with a new hire! It won't work for everyone though...but is a good litmus test of how much your employer values you.

It is also a solid testimony to the fact that for every HR policy there is an exception. If you are valued and make your case in the right way, you can get a lot! (think double-promotions, out of cycle raises, better gear, etc.) HR advises, Managers decide (if your manager doesn't know this, shop for a new one)

k3dz 15 years ago | | |

you can do that only if you are a senior dev.. what do junior devs, recent college grads do?

leftnode 15 years ago | | |

Yes, that's exactly it, thank you.

jasonkester 15 years ago | |

Wow, somebody remembers something that I wrote four years ago. Cool!

And it looks like somebody below has saved me the trouble of pointing you to it.

huherto 15 years ago | | |

Now leftnode has somebody to blame if the plan backfires.;-)

hmottestad 15 years ago | |

As a student I took time off from class and enjoyed 2 weeks skiing is switzerland, then another 2 weeks in the sun in Uruguay. All while it was -20C at home in Norway. I usually end up working during my normal vacations though, so last summer I had 2 weeks off.

One of the perks I would probably want in my contract when I start working is the ability to take up to 4 weeks of unpaid leave and being able to take all my vacation out in one go.

Also I've been told that in the US you have a limited number of sick days and that they sometimes come as part of your vacation. That's not the case in Norway. In fact, if you get sick for a week while on holiday, then you have the right to another week of holiday.

camiller 15 years ago | | |

The sick days part varies by employer. At a previous employer it was 10 sick days in addition to your vacation days, and unused sick days accumulated from one year to the next. When my son was born 8 week early with my wife in the hospital 2.5 weeks before that, I had accumulated enough sick time that I could take 11 weeks off to spend at the hospital (Caleb spent 25 days in neonatal intensive care) and at home after he was released.

officemonkey 15 years ago | |

My wife has freelanced for over 15 years (before I knew her) precisely because of this. She saved up a big stash of cash, set automatic bill pays for her rent and utilities and took a two-month trip to Paris.

You have to keep your expenses low (both at home and abroad) but at least you're not at work.

thomasgerbe 15 years ago | | |

If you're a dev/designer, the good thing is you can work remotely, thus paying for parts of your vacation. I did the same with a two week foray in Paris: work one and half days for American companies, and then enjoyed the rest of the time there.

thomasgerbe 15 years ago | |

I actually did that as a freelance designer.

I did some work for a start-up while doing my own before taking a month off to travel the world (literally from America > Asia > Europe). They offered to pay me to stay but I thought, "I'd rather have the amazing experience of visiting friends and understanding foreign cultures than remaining comfortable.").

AndyJPartridge 15 years ago |

I think this old story is vey relevant here.

I have employees that take a lower salary than others, but have up to 7 weeks holiday a year. I'm happy with that. One employee that has 7 weeks holiday has only had 1 day sick in the 6 years I've employed him.

-- Sharpen the Saw --

Once upon a time a very strong woodcutter ask for a job in a timber merchant, and he got it. The paid was really good and so were the work conditions. For that reason, the woodcutter was determined to do his best. His boss gave him an axe and showed him the area where he was supposed to work.

The first day, the woodcutter brought 18 trees "Congratulations," the boss said. "Go on that way!" Very motivated for the boss’ words, the woodcutter try harder the next day, but he only could bring 15 trees. The third day he try even harder, but he only could bring 10 trees.

Day after day he was bringing less and less trees. "I must be losing my strength", the woodcutter thought. He went to the boss and apologized, saying that he could not understand what was going on. "When was the last time you sharpened your axe?" the boss asked. "Sharpen? I had no time to sharpen my axe. I have been very busy trying to cut trees..."

gst 15 years ago | |

Do you currently have any open positions? ;)

pstack 15 years ago | |

That kind of sounds like a metaphor for more training rather than vacation?

AndyJPartridge 15 years ago | | |

I understand it to mean you should take time out in order to improve the overall quality of your work.

Be that training, a vacation, or the literal "sharpening of the axe."

wccrawford 15 years ago |

When I complained to an employer that it was too hard to request my vacation time (it's in my contract, they made it very hard to pick dates by always having an emergency deadline, etc) they replied "It's like that everywhere", as if it was a legit answer.

Many employers also lump in sick time with vacation time, as if that's a replacement since you didn't come into work. That would probably be okay, if you had an option to take unpaid vacation time when the time comes. Instead, you're often forced to take a shorter vacation, which doesn't do the job.

And forcing you to work while on vacation is unforgiveable. It shows that the company doesn't understand why vacation time is necessary. (I haven't had anyone do this to me, thankfully. It wouldn't have gone well.)

If taking unpaid vacations was an option, I would probably end up taking about 4 weeks worth of vacations, instead of 2.

wheels 15 years ago |

This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s (from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of vacation, it was bordering on surreal to have 6.

That said, most Americans wouldn't like the European pay scales. While a developer gets 3-6 times the vacation in Germany, they make half as much money.

For me it was a great trade; I still had a middle class income and spent my 20s bouncing around the world visiting more than 30 countries on 5 continents, with zero gaps in my employment.

Now that I'm an employer, I still see it as a great trade: employees are a lot cheaper here, and seem to be happier. But again, while most American software developers would love to have more vacation, I've heard them also repeat ludicrous things about how they can "barely survive on $60k/year".

zdw 15 years ago |

One result of this is that businesses chuck human redundancy out the window. Often there's only one person who can do a business critical task, and as they can't really be gone from work for that long, the business gets by.

From an business uptime perspective, forced "downtime" of employees through vacation is actually a good way to force the creation of backup systems for business process.

larrywright 15 years ago | |

There are a lot of companies that do force people to take vacations for precisely this reason.

I also recall hearing at some point in time that a lot of financial institutions forced certain people to take time off,as a means to detect embezzling. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

karolist 15 years ago | | |

Yes, that is true.

bluedanieru 15 years ago | | |

I also recall hearing at some point in time that a lot of financial institutions forced certain people to take time off,as a means to detect embezzling. I'm not sure if that's true or not.

Not only is that practiced, it's the law.

toyg 15 years ago |

It wasn't always like this in Europe. Extended vacation time was one of the many hard-fought rights won by the socialist/trade-unionist movements of the past century throughout the continent. Not even Thatcher dared attacking that right (she dropped a few national holidays here and there, instead).

Things didn't turn out quite the same on the other side of the pond, sadly, and this is the result.

ry0ohki 15 years ago |

Usually the only time Americans can take long vacations is between jobs. I wonder how many actually change jobs just for this reason.

I asked for 4 consecutive weeks off to travel Europe once at a previous employer (I had worked there 5 years with no more then a week and a half off) and they denied the request. So I found another job and made sure I had a 4 week break between the two.

Silhouette 15 years ago |

The thing I find most interesting about this discussion is that we have not yet seen anyone from the US proudly claiming that by working harder they are more productive than the rest of us. I have seen similar conversations several times on various on-line forums in the past, and there was always a defensive/proud mindset from a significant group, even as those of us outside the US wondered if they realised how much their employers were abusing them.

Since the financial mess of the past couple of years showed that US productivity figures that seemed too good to be true really were just an illusion, I'm hoping that the mindset of the average US worker has become a bit more realistic and a bit less willing to accept (by international standards) abusively long hours and short vacations. It will be good for the workers, and I expect for their employers as well in the long run, since working with better rested and happier employees is one of the surest ways to improve productivity known to man.

wladimir 15 years ago |

This is crazy from our (Western European) perspective.

It was one of my reasons for not taking a job in the USA that was offered me a few years ago. Yes, it paid somewhat more than here in Europe but I'd rather have the benefits such as more free time and better health care than more income.

gst 15 years ago | |

I can only agree.

I plan to move to SF in the following months, but this is one of the issues why I think that I won't stay there permanently, but will move back to Europe after a few years.

jtbigwoo 15 years ago | | |

In my experience, big companies in the U.S. are often willing to negotiate on the number of vacation days issued. I negotiated 4 weeks of vacation/sick time + 6 holiday days at my last job. I took a a couple thousand dollars less than my target salary, but I was definitely happier.

Also, banks, educational institutions, and government offices are more generous when it comes to vacation days. Tech companies and ad agencies are generally the stingiest.

pavel_lishin 15 years ago | |

I can't speak for the health care, but I imagine that you could have negotiated for better vacation time.

barrkel 15 years ago | | |

It strongly depends on the company. Many companies use vacation time as a perk strictly for seniority, and are inflexible about changing it; or if you do get a break, you forego further increases until your seniority has "caught up".

It's pretty stupid, particularly since it's a fairly strong disincentive to relocate: precisely after you've moved away from friends and family, they give you less time to visit them. It was one of the biggest reasons I never moved to CA when I had the offer, H-1B, etc.

sosuke 15 years ago |

My employeer recently went unlimited vacation! Which in practice really means no vacation unless you bully your way into it which is very stressful.

patio11 15 years ago | |

That is definitely the perk that isn't. Imagine a startup offering employees unlimited pay -- "Whoa whoa whoa, you drew $3,000 this month? $3,000!? You're a single guy, what do you need $3,000 for? Don't we give you enough soda?"

lpolovets 15 years ago | |

My employer has the same policy, and I've enjoyed a ton of vacation time (in exchange for getting a lot done when I'm not on vacation). Unlimited vacation is an awesome perk in the hands of the right employer.

brass_cannon 15 years ago | |

It really is dependent upon your work environment, and the people you work for. When I started at my current job, we had two weeks vacation after 6 months, plus half a dozen holidays. We were a very young company, and I got the impression that policy was created somewhat arbitrarily when we only had a couple of full time employees.

We went to an 'unlimited' policy about 16 months ago, and one of our devs spent almost an entire month overseas earlier this year without issue. He's not too much of an outlier within our company in terms of how much vacation time is taken, either.

nixy 15 years ago |

I'm a Swedish developer. This year I have 7 weeks of vacation, and I plan to use it all. I normally get the 5 weeks required by law. Last year, I only used 4 of those 5 weeks, so one spilled over to this year. I also got a bonus week of vacation for working a lot of overtime last summer. So that makes 7 weeks.

tjogin 15 years ago | |

Also please note that this is paid vacation we're talking about.

In Sweden, we have five weeks of vacation by law. And, the right to take four of those weeks consecutively.

nixy 15 years ago | | |

Indeed. It's not only paid, but I get 112% of my normal salary during vacation because your living expenses increase when you're on holiday.

brazzy 15 years ago | | |

The latter is pretty nice - even in Germany, you only have a right to 2 consecutive weeks.

latj 15 years ago | |

Hur kan man hitta ett jobb i Sverige? ;) Måste man talar svenska?

geon 15 years ago | | |

Most jobs are advertised at the government-run (but great) Platsbanken

google-translated: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&u=...

I cant imagine Swedish would be much of an issue if you work with software development. Even outside technology, most swedes speak english well enough for basic communication.

Still, if you get a work permit (easy), you get to attend free Swedish lessons.

nixy 15 years ago | | |

Hehe no, most often not. If you're a webguy, contact me (nixy at bede dot se). We're hiring in Stockholm! (The e-mail domain has nothing to do with the company, it is my private e-mail.)

yxhuvud 15 years ago | | |

No. IT people tend to know more than enough english for english speakers to get along.

It also happen to be a huge lack of IT people on the market at the moment..

The flip side, of course, is that you have to survive our winters. :P

lutorm 15 years ago | | |

Nej. At least, I'd bet. But it might make it easier.

macrael 15 years ago |

I've found this is something that really surprises Europeans. But, once, when I was comparing notes with some travelers in a hostel in New Zealand, we asked a South Korean among us for his perspective. He said that he and everyone he knows gets maybe 2 days paid vacation a year. They work most weekends and get maybe 1 holiday. He said if you want to travel, you have to quit your job to do it, with no guarantee you will get another when you get back.

This changed my perspective. The difference between that and the States' 10ish days off is much greater than the difference between us and Europe. It is hard for me to imagine. Can anyone else with knowledge of East Asia chime in? Was this guy's experience representative? If so, it is a bit silly to call America the "no vacation nation." We do get vacation.

yardie 15 years ago | |

I'm not sure how common this is but "vacation" for the few Japanese and Chinese tourists I've met is usually done as a work retreat. For example, your division has met or exceeded its objectives for the year? Congratulations! you're all going to Hawaii for a week. I assume this is how compensation is done there.

While vacationing in Hawaii I read an article about the massive logistics it took to host about 10 million Amway sales reps from China. The visa and hotel backlog was insane so it took about 2 years from when they were promised to when they were actually delivered that company paid vacation.

Tsagadai 15 years ago | |

I work in South Korea as a software developer for an RnD startup. The legal requirement for paid holidays in (most) contracts is 10 paid days plus public holidays. Public holidays are not really considered holidays by many as there is a very strong compulsion to spend it with your extended family instead of "going anywhere". They don't carry over unused days from what I can grasp from the laws (in Korean).

That said, people are discouraged from taking holidays in many companies, especially large Chaebol-style companies. I know a few people who work 6 days a week, 10 hours a day with two holidays a year and one of them must be a Sunday. Competition, for everything, is far more intense here than it was in Australia or the US.

Vivtek 15 years ago |

America doesn't do vacation because of a mistaken understanding of the meaning of the word "productivity".

As long as you have management consultants who specialize in the single metric of productivity (i.e. number of dollars of profit vs. number of dollars spent on people making the profit), you will have miserable people.

bartonfink 15 years ago | |

American corporate culture seems to live by the motto "Don't think - measure!"

drblast 15 years ago | | |

I've witnessed this. Counterintuitively, I think it's a side-effect of not understanding math.

To those without a good understanding of statistics, numbers and graphs are a mystical, magical way to easily improve just about anything.

Vivtek 15 years ago | | |

Well, in general, I'm in favor of measuring - "thinking" is often a buzzword that means jumping on whichever fad bandwagon you just saw in the airline magazine. It's picking what to measure where some thought is required.

tptacek 15 years ago |

Relative to cost-of-living, are wages the same, lower, or higher in countries with mandatory paid vacations? One wonders whether there's a delusive "free lunch" notion underpinning Euro vacation policy, whether governments really can force companies to pay everyone more for the same level of output, or whether Euro economies have discovered an effective way to engineer a more efficient labor force by attempting to outlaw burnout.

Because, at the end of the day, the company is buying completed-and-sold widgets for their salary dollar. All things being equal (including widget output), if the company pays you $50k a year and gives you 4 more "paid" vacation weeks, they gave you a raise. You can mandate 2, 4, or 8 weeks of vacation, but --- at least in middle class jobs --- you can't really mandate a salary floor.

sudonim 15 years ago |

No vacation really sucks. I took 2 months between jobs once, but I've always been able to take a week or two weeks at a time. Now, we have the same policy as netflix. Basically you take time off when you want it, and you take as much as you want. It's all paid. Our only designer is gone for 3 weeks to get married. We'll struggle a little bit for those 3 weeks, but I'm grateful that when it's my time to take a week or two off, I don't feel guilty or have to beg for it.

jemfinch 15 years ago | |

The funny thing is, the Netflix policy is tied to a corporate culture that's reputed to be very high stress, performance-focused, and quick to terminate. In such an insecure environment, I would be very surprised if Netflix employees took more vacation than the average industry employee.

I would never want to work for a Netflix-model company. When I take vacation, I want to feel entitled to it (because I am!), and when I forgo vacation, I want to be paid out for that sacrifice when I leave the company.

I think the Netflix model exists more to improve the company ledger by reducing liabilities than to help the employee or promote a healthy work environment. Maybe it's different where you work, but that's my perspective, from my comfortable 12 company holidays, 15 days PTO perspective.

ankimal 15 years ago | |

We have the Netflix policy, well almost. We get the time off when you want it, but never more than 5 working days together (Thats a week). Did I mention that a large number of the employees travel abroad to visit family?

antidaily 15 years ago |

I find it hard to believe that the employer really gains much by offering less than 3 weeks. No one is fully productive 52 weeks a year (or even 50).

chrismealy 15 years ago |

Nobody has mentioned the obvious: weak unions.

kgermino 15 years ago | |

I'm not sure how much that has to do with it.

I live in Chicago, no one around here would accuse the unions of being weak, but vacation time here is no different than in the south.

Unless you mean on a national level (unions pushing for federal reform and what-not) than yes the unions here are weaker, but the U.S. Also tends to be more opposed to national regulations than Europe as well.

r00fus 15 years ago | | |

Considering most vacation law is set at the national level, yes, weak union power at the national level results in the situation we have here.

yxhuvud 15 years ago | | |

Here in Sweden the government mostly only legislated what the unions and the employer organizations already had agreed to. That went on throughout the 40's to the 70's. At that point the state legislated some things that had no prior agreement and then progress basically stopped.

steauengeglase 15 years ago | |

I have a feeling that there is a bit more to it than that.

In America it is fairly common for employers tack on a little more vacation time every year for both salary and hourly employees. It isn't too terribly odd to have 1 to 1.5 months off a year after working for someone for 5 to 10 years, but Americans seldom stay at the same job for very long. Either you go off for greener pastures, quit out of frustration, get laid off or simply resign because they fear that prospective employers won't hire you because you stayed at one place for too long.

Deep down, I think we have a serious fear of being considered lazy by our peers.

michaelchisari 15 years ago | | |

It isn't too terribly odd to have 1 to 1.5 months off a year after working for someone for 5 to 10 years

I would actually say that that's very odd, except in very specialized fields.

pnathan 15 years ago | | |

The stepped-by-seniority approach is how my current employer has it. I'm not sure how I feel about it.

smackay 15 years ago |

This topic is covered on a somewhat regular basis in The Economist - usnder different guises. One memorable comparison between Europe and the USA was that Americans work more so they can spend the occasional weekend on their expensive boat while Europeans are happier taking longer vacations on canoe trips.

farrel 15 years ago |

How many Americans can only afford health coverage via their workplace plan?

How many Americans live in right-to-work states and can be dismissed without a reason?

Add that together and you have a lot of fear.

Bobby_Tables 15 years ago | |

Nitpick: you're referring to at-will employment, not right-to-work. Right-to-work laws mean that you can't be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment. At-will employment means that you can (theoretically) be fired or quit at any time for no reason.

hollerith 15 years ago | | |

Though the two are related in that almost all of the employees that cannot be terminated at the employer's will are unionized. Even in the right-to-work states, almost all of the employees of governments and universities cannot be fired at will.

farrel 15 years ago | | |

You are correct sir.

baconner 15 years ago | |

The worst part of it IMO is that even if you could pay for insurance without your workplace plan huge numbers of Americans can't get it at all due to pre existing conditions. So this is a serious impediment to workers leaving stable jobs that they don't like to do things like found small startups or even just move to a new job that may not be as stable.

joezydeco 15 years ago |

I'm wondering how much of it is because people neglect to negotiate their vacation time when changing jobs.

Most American workplaces start you out with 2 weeks and then usually add a week or so after so many years of seniority. When you change jobs, how many of you ask for that same amount of vacation time at the new company? Or do you just accept that you're new and don't want to push things by asking for more at the onset? Or is it just forgotten until it's too late to ask?

marcinw 15 years ago |

How many of you treat conferences as mini-vacations? I find that in my field, going to a couple conferences throughout the year makes up for a couple days of vacation, as long as I don't have any work on my plate.

Also, I find that being single and having friends that (on the majority), make less than I do, makes it difficult to plan trips to places you'd have to fly/rent a hotel for. Trips consist of ten friends carpooling, getting a group rate at a ski resort, and renting out a condo for next to nothing for a weekend.

m0nastic 15 years ago | |

I definitely do that.

I have a lot of vacation days through work (6 weeks this year), but have pretty much no desire to go on vacations. I end up using my vacation days to go to Security conferences.

I've found, at least with my favorite conferences (CanSecWest, Shmoocon), that they refill my "info-sec excitement meter" for a good four months before I start considering quitting and going to work in a comic book store.

jquery 15 years ago | | |

I think about quitting and working a lower paying job all the time. That just inspires me to sock away more of my excess income for that day when it eventually comes.

troels 15 years ago |

So, in the field of software engineering where competition for employees is tough, is it really still common to give only 2 or 3 weeks vacation? Would it be considered outrageous to ask for 5 or 6 weeks of vacation when interviewing for a position, in Silicon Valley?

marshray 15 years ago | |

I don't know about SV in particular, but I've worked a several tech companies over the years.

Yes, usually HR can make exceptions. But you need a good reason, like "at my current job I have 3 weeks of leave accrued, I want to not lose that if I come work for you".

But having an engineer who accrues vacation at a different rate than other employees hired under the same circumstances would be quite exceptional. It would stand out in their records and they might not have a good way to justify their decision if they were questioned about it "why is troles taking so many vacations?".

During the hiring process, it's probably not a good idea to act exceptional in the amount of vacation you plan on taking! It would be easier to negotiate on salary.

troels 15 years ago | | |

Yes, I can see how an employer would have trouble justifying go give one employee more time off. It's a lot easier to hide differences in salary.

That said, if employers are serious about attracting talent, perhaps it wasn't a bad idea to offer more time off for everybody. I know that coming from a country where 6 weeks time off is the minimum, it would be a serious disincentive for me to want to work in the states.

gaius 15 years ago | | |

On the contrary, there is no better time to negotiate than post offer, pre acceptance.

stefanobernardi 15 years ago |

That's really crazy, but it gives employers the chance to hire and retain the best talents not only with salary wars.

I still think that the major problem is that the US is one of the three only nations in the world that does not have paid maternity leave. Absurd.

thomasgerbe 15 years ago | |

Actually there are numerous companies in the U.S. that do have maternity leave. I used to work for an agency in NY that generally had less pay but more benefits.

sdizdar 15 years ago |

For software companies (and probably to all other industries which hire 'knowledge workers'), it should be very important to give enough of vacation time to their employees (developers).

For me that is no brainier, but unfortunately, very few hi-tech companies actually understand that. So you have high-rate of "burn outs" which cause all kind problems (bugs, bad design decisions, etc.). The management mantra is still: The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Also, I was surprised how it is very hard to find a hi-tech company offering something like unpaid sabbatical leave or fulltime sabbatical replacement position (i.e., programmer working in sales for one or two months). Some banks and hedge funds do that.

jister 15 years ago |

Sad but true.

Years back when I was working for an American employer, filing a leave seemed like taboo. I didn't understand it back then but when my wife got hospitalized, I filed for an emergency leave of course, my boss sent flowers with a note that goes something like this: "Hope your wife gets better yada yada...can you work while you're at the hospital?"

jquery 15 years ago | |

I had a boss like that. He texted me Christmas Eve, asking about progress on my latest project.

I quit a month later and found another company that gave me 6 weeks vacation (starting). And much better pay to boot.

hessenwolf 15 years ago |

No heathcare, no vacation, can get fired with no notice, crap public transport, astronomical crime rate, dubious legal freedoms.

Why is it you guys pay your government again?

waqf 14 years ago | |

High salaries; cheap consumer goods; teenagers on the street are polite, and shop assistants can count and spell.

But that's all I can think of. And you missed "slow broadband".

danssig 14 years ago | | |

I don't find the salaries that high in practice (depends heavily on where you live), teenagers on the street are anything but polite and I don't know what you mean about counting and spelling. I do know that every time I've been in a store that lost power I wasn't able to check out because no one in the store knew how to assess the taxes.

hessenwolf 14 years ago | | |

Okay - 1 and 2 make sense; teenagers: are they really polite? my sarcasm detector is off - if comparing it to the scumbag quotient of the British Isles then I totally see where you are coming from; can shop assistants count and spell better?

evilbit 15 years ago | |

Liberation/spreading democracy :)

hessenwolf 15 years ago | | |

Yes... I forgot to mention education. How much did my 24 years of education cost me? Squat.

vetler 15 years ago |

Move to Norway - the best place to live according to the UN: http://goo.gl/012ea

Just be aware that while it might be a good place to live, Norwegians find lots to complain about anyway. Also, it's definitely not the most exciting place to live. You'll earn enough to buy a place to live, have kids and spend your five weeks of paid vacation somewhere warmer.

FWIW, I've met Americans who have moved here because of our socialist values (yes, socialist... it's not a curse word where I come from ;)), and are pretty happy about it.

wonderyak 15 years ago |

Very simply, this country was founded by people with the Protestant Work Ethic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic and it has become a part of our national identity.

lispm 15 years ago | |

I live in the more protestant part of Germany, Hamburg. People here get the same vacation (the company I work for has 28 days paid vacation for its employees). The only difference is that we have a few days less public holidays than in the catholic regions.

wonderyak 15 years ago | | |

It really isn't so much the religious aspect of Protestantism but the work ethic associated with early American settlers and the lack of fun they believed in. There is a really wonderful book by Harriet Beecher Stowe which outlines the lives of these people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Town_Folks

yxhuvud 15 years ago | |

I do not think it is that, since the parts europe that is protestantic have more vacation than the catholic parts, in average.

danssig 14 years ago | | |

"Protestant work ethic" is the term we use for a specific group of people who happened to also be protestant. And it very much is the case. You hear it in nearly every person you talk to.

mcantelon 15 years ago |

"Century of the Self" is a great documentary on how the American population has been socially engineered by corporations.

wlll 15 years ago | |

You can (legitimately) download "Century of the Self" here:

Part 1: http://www.archive.org/details/AdaCurtisCenturyoftheSelf_0 Part 2: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar... Part 3: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar... Part 4: http://www.archive.org/details/AdamCurtisCenturyoftheSelfPar...

siphr 15 years ago | | |

I can second this. It is one of those documentaries that you need to see at least once before you die. Very informative.

JonnieCache 15 years ago | |

This description makes these docs sound like they come from the conspiratorial wing of filmmaking. (no insult implied mcantelon.)

However, they are in fact some of the most important pieces of film I have ever watched, and Adam Curtis is one of the greatest documentary makers ever.

I encourage you to watch all these, then go and watch all his other works, starting with the Power of Nightmares.

fedd 15 years ago |

in Russia we have approx. 4 weeks of paid vacations which don't expire if you dont use them, people work from 9 to 6 with 45 mins for lunch, and from 9 to 4:45 on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays (40 hrs work week). If national holidays fall onto workdays, there's an extra day off. Mostly this is observed now, administration tend to force people go on vacation to make accounting simpler. For several years we had Christmas vacations from 1 to 10th of January.

now a joke story as it is told in Russia.

at one company people worked their asses off very hard, came earlier, left later, sometimes worked until 9 or 10 to meet goals in the plan. and suddenly one man started to appear at 9, leave an 6 and didn't appear on Saturday and Sunday when the deadline was near. colleagues started to look at him with blame, and finally told him, who the fuck you think you are? why you so relaxed when we are tearing our asses? - oh, sorry guys, its a real shame, - he replied, - but i am on a vacation

jamii 15 years ago |

I know a fair few people who work one month on, one month off (pro rata, of course). Even in London or Hong Kong (not Tokyo) a competent developer can earn enough in 6 months to live on for 12.

speleding 15 years ago |

Allow me to air a dissenting opinion, since everyone here seems to make fun of those poor US workaholics.

I think the low number of vacation days is just a side effect of Americans not having such a strict compartmentalization between "work" and "life". I worked on both sides of the Atlantic and although I settled in Europe now I actually like the US work ethic, the low number of vacation days notwithstanding.

For many Europeans work is something they do to have bread on the table and the "real" life is that part you're not working. For many Americans their work is their life and the free time they have gets intermingled with work (they take the kids to the company barbecue! never heard of that happening in Europe).

But if most of your waking moments are spent doing something which is not your primary objective than you could say the Europeans are the sad ones.

(Side note: I am now in the happy position that I enjoy running my own company, I might feel different if I had a lousy job)

pstack 15 years ago | |

Thank you. I am my work and I live to work and I'm tired of people treating me like some sort of pariah, because of it. The only thing I will spend more time doing in my life besides working is sleeping and that thing I do and how well I do it greatly defines me. I am not just the man who exists between the few hours after work and before bed and if others are, then I'm sorry for them. (I understand that isn't everyone - many people do love what they do and care about the work they make with their lives, but still enjoy the lengthy break now and then).

mcdowall 15 years ago |

I get 23 days holiday entitlement plus UK bank holidays which this year thanks to Prince William adds on another 9 days.

Like some others however, I have dreamt about travelling long term so have handed my notice in, managed to secure some small freelance gigs and leave next wednesday for Bangkok, my holiday entitlement just wasn't enough ;)

dhughes 15 years ago |

It's no better in Canada the usual vacation time is two weeks with that increasing to three after maybe five years then after ten years it may go to four weeks but that's it it's extremely rare to see more than five weeks.

The years of service are calculated for full-time positions so if you worked at a company part-time for five years and then became full-time only then does the clock start to tick towards more vacation time.

In my job the summer is a busy time and vacations are blacked out from July to August the best times to go in a snowy country. The rest of the year the quiet time is used for projects which also mean no vacation.

Over six years each year I managed to get a week or two in, barely, but I've got 210 hours of vacation and 200+ hours of sick time (maxed out) that I can't use because I can never get time off. And I'm not allowed to take two weeks in a row either. Time to move on!

afterburner 15 years ago | |

Actually several sources show Canada is better than the US, although how much better depends on the source. This one below paints the rosiest picture I've seen for Canada, I've seen others show as few as 19 (for average) while show 14 for the US (same as below):

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922052.html

dhughes 15 years ago | | |

That seems bizarre, any job I've ever had or anyone I know get two weeks vacation.

Anyone you ask wouldn't get any more than two weeks and self-employed seasonal workers such as farmers and fishermen may not get any vacation.

MatthewB 15 years ago |

My employer gives the usual 2 weeks vacation for the first year of employment. Then, every year after that, you get an extra week up to 4 weeks paid vacation per year. Also, my employer is very vacation friendly in terms of requesting time off.

However, the biggest problem I have is actually taking the time off! I feel like I will miss too much work if I take a long vacation so I just take off a day or two here and there to "relax." And just like the article says I am always available via email on my cell phone and although I don't want to admit it, I am usually available on my computer as well.

henrikschroder 15 years ago | |

What do you mean "miss too much work" ?

Seriously, what's the worst that could happen if you're not there for a week or two?

pstack 15 years ago | | |

His comment seems fairly self explanatory, to me. If you have five things to do every day and you do five things every day, you keep up. If you have five things to do every day and you don't do them for ten days, you have 55 things to do on the eleventh day.

patja 15 years ago |

Taking control of my own schedule is in the top 5 list of reasons I quit being an employee 4 years ago (constant reorganization was number 1). Now I take all of August off, spend time volunteering in my daughters' classrooms during the day, get all of my errands done while the streets and shops are empty, and generally love life a lot more.

Anyone with dev skills can go independent or strike out with a group of like-minded souls to take control of their schedule. Sure there are downsides to working on your own, and it isn't all skittles and beer, but overall I find it well worth it.

EiZei 15 years ago |

They might as well call this article Why is America the 'no-union nation'?

mikeleeorg 15 years ago |

Out of curiosity, anyone know if sabbaticals common in Europe?

A software developer I know worked tirelessly for 4 years at a large corporation before burning out. He may have taken a week off here & there, but was always answering his emails.

He finally requested a sabbatical. Those are rare and very tough to get, but his manager fought for him and off he went. He returned refreshed, though he left the job shortly thereafter (which is a major reason why that company made it tough to request a sabbatical).

I'm just curious if the same kind of phenomenon occurs in Europe.

yxhuvud 15 years ago | |

Here in Sweden we are allowed to do it, but it generally isn't done.

Though we have a guy at work that have managed to convince our employer to give hime an extra day off every week (without pay though, but he doesn't need the cash)

wazoox 15 years ago | |

AFAIK sabbatical are quasi exclusive to US and Canada. I never knew anyone in Europe going for a sabbatical.

Ras_ 15 years ago | | |

In Finland we have a practice called vuorotteluvapaa (work sharing). It is commonplace for people nearing middle age. For example my mother used vuorotteluvapaa to do deaconess studies to complement her nursing degree. Work sharing requires that your employer hires someone who is registered as unemployed to fill in "your shoes".

To get work share you need to have worked at least 10 years of which at least 13 months to your current employer. You can work share for a minimum of 90 days and maximum of 359 days. Compensation is 70-80% of what your unemployment benefit (25.74€ base per day + 45% of your normal day's earnings) would be.

Confusion 15 years ago |

I work at a (bootstrapped) European startup. In june, one of the founders takes a month of vacation. In july, the other does the same. As an employee, I'm entitled to 5 weeks off. Sick leave does not subtract from that. Every American reader probably thinks we will never make it. European readers would consider insane if we did without that time off. That's how ingrained this vacation business is. And if you ask me, we are happier and more productive than we would be without those vacations.

pnathan 15 years ago |

I would not mind a split between paid and unpaid vacation. I see no reason (unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me for not working.

I don't live to work. I work to live.

hollerith 15 years ago | |

>I see no reason (unless contractually specified) why a company should pay me for not working.

Because you probably do not get a charge out of getting something for nothing -- but many do.

pnathan 15 years ago | | |

Well, if someone wants to give me something for nothing, I'll take it. :D Please don't get me wrong. Donations are definitely accepted!

But I want to create win-win situations with my business relationships. If I am working for a company, they are getting my product, I am getting money (possibly benefits). If I am not working, e.g., I am dorking around in Mexico for a month on vacation, the company is not netting value out of me, and if they are paying me, that's a drain on their resources. I want my employer to be awesome, because as a member of that company, the awesomeness trickles down. :-)

stephen_g 15 years ago |

Wow, that really is incredible... I really can't imagine not being able to take a week of vacation for fear of losing my job...

Do you guys in the US get time in lieu? My job is 40 hours a week, and if you work longer than that, you can take the time off later. So working fifteen minutes longer every day lets you have another week off (paid) every year, in addition to the four weeks paid holiday you get.

And since holiday time accumulates, you are encouraged to take most of it every year.

retroafroman 15 years ago | |

Generally no. Most engineering jobs fall in the "salaried professional" category, which means that no over time is paid and that you're expected to work for 40 hours a week. I've seen a lot of nice managers allow employees to take some downtime after a stressful or overworked period, but there's not a standard policy at most jobs. Jobs where "punching the clock," usually hourly paid positions, can get a little closer to that, but usually only within a pay period. Example: if my friend puts in a little bit extra each day, he might leave early on Friday, but can't accrue that outside of the two week paycheck to paycheck period.

thomasgerbe 15 years ago | |

Yes.

While in NY, the company I worked at encouraged people to take comp days sooner rather than later.

I usually just accumulated a bunch of hours and took extended periods of time off.

gcb 15 years ago | |

There's no answer to that. there's no labor law in the US except from some payment and safety issues.

everything is negotiable.

i negotiated a little more in vacation then the other co-workers. Some other teams in the company can take time off based on the overtime they put in that month. My team doesn't have that. but if we work on some long issue, the manager usually gives an informal day off later.

pstack 15 years ago |

After seven years with my company, I was finally earning the highest amount of vacation hours per pay check, up to 15 days per year. In my fifteen year career, as an adult, I've never taken a vacation and I don't really have any interest in doing so. I currently have about 300 hours of vacation banked. I'm at the limit, so unless I use some of that time, I won't earn any more. That's okay, because . . . I don't have any use for a vacation. I don't use sick days, either (I know a lot of people use their three or five allotted sick days from their company as personal time).

I guess if I was digging ditches for a living, I'd want all the paid vacations I could possibly have. However, I work with computers and technology for a living and I love computers and technology. So . . you know . . . why would I want to take time off from doing something I enjoy?

Not to mention, after I die, nobody is going to remember me fondly for the vacations I took, so I could sit in the sun and cook my skin next to a chlorinated pool in another country. They're going to remember me for any work ethic, personality, and accomplishments I had.

madeinindia 15 years ago |

All you folks must seriously consider moving to India. Its a vibrant country with a lot of energy. Software Engineers get above than average market salaries. With a decent salary one can afford a great life style here. It also servers as an excellent laboratory where you can test/prototype and implement your ideas.

flexd 15 years ago |

We do not live to work, we work to live.

At least that is how I see it. I will work to keep me busy doing (hopefully) interesting things and to keep food on the table but in the end I work because I have to. We all do.

Wouldn't you rather work 6 months of the year and travel or do whatever you want the rest? I know I would.

skittles 15 years ago |

I work for a company that doesn't have expiring vacation days. They are payed out at 100% at your current salary the day you quit, get fired, or retire. We have a large amount of employees that use this as an additional retirement account. I can't imagine banking all my vacation time!

barrkel 15 years ago | |

That's a dangerous strategy to rely on. The company may not ultimately be able to afford such payouts.

marshray 15 years ago | |

Do you have that in writing? I wonder if they think they could simply discontinue that policy.

Actually, I worked a a place that allowed you to "sell back" your vacation time as actual hours worked. They could be made to count for time-and-a-half overtime.

If you did that on a week that also had a company holiday, you'd kind of get into this triple-bonus-category. It was great until some guy sort of abused it and sold back a few weeks while also working a bunch of overtime over a two-holiday pay period.

rmc 15 years ago |

In many European countries if you don't take all your holidays, the company must pay you for them. So companies do not financially benefit if you work more, all they get are employees that are tired and overworked. This is why they would be keen for you to take all your holidays.

michaelpinto 15 years ago |

The flip side of this is that we have Summer vacation for schools (unlike the rest of the world) and have institutionalized Spring Break for college students. Sadly we see the idea of vacation as being for the very young or the very old who retire.

matwood 15 years ago |

I get 3 paid weeks of vacation per year. More would be nice, but unless I'm going to do something (spend a month in Europe for example) I get tired of being on vacation after a week or so. Also, when it comes to single days here and there my boss just tells me to take them. His way of hoping I pick up the phone on a Saturday when something breaks I guess :)

I recently travelled to to the UK and France for 16 days and was happy to return home. I had a great time on the trip, so maybe I'm weird for not wanting to be gone longer? If I actually lived in Europe more vacation might be nice because it's so easy/cheap to visit other countries.

osks 15 years ago | |

Vacation in Sweden (I think it's like this in other European countries as well, but I don't know for sure) doesn't always mean that you go away somewhere, or at least not for the entire vacation. Say if you have four continuous weeks of vacation during the summer (June to August here in Sweden), which is very common, you might be gone for a week or two, but spend the rest of the time at home.

Since almost everyone have the large part of their vacation during the summer, there is a good chance that some of your friends and family will have vacation at the same time, so you just relax and enjoy life for the rest of the time.

(Or you can just spend the entire vacation repainting your house and be stressed about all the stuff you have to do now that you have the time...)

matwood 15 years ago | | |

Like I said above, maybe I'm weird :)

I can only relax for a few days before I get stir crazy. I need problems to solve and things to think about. It probably helps that I don't hate my job and have a lot of free time already. A long time ago I realized that I didn't want to be that person who lives for the couple times a year they get a vacation (even if you have 4 weeks I don't want to hate the other 48). Instead try to live in places where I'm on vacation all the time. Right now I'm in the mountains and at the end of the summer I'm moving back to the beach.

adestefan 15 years ago | |

The thing about vacation time is remember to have enough to use for things other than a long vacation. I'll use a week of time for the Friday after Thanksgiving and some time around Christmas/New Years.

daniel-cussen 15 years ago |

I hear that people take substantially less vacation in East Asia.

jneal 15 years ago |

I guess I'm in the "lucky" category when it comes to paid time off. I work for a small company though, and I receive 5 holidays, 5 floating holidays, 5 sick days, and 5 weeks vacation. I could find a job that pays 10k more per year but offers not nearly as much vacation time - but I prefer the time off over the additional money.

rgrieselhuber 15 years ago |

When I was working for an employer, all I wanted was more vacation time so I could travel. Now that I am self-employed, I just get antsy when I'm on vacation.

What I've found works better for me is to take extended vacations every couple of years (a year here, 3 months there). This recharges my batteries for years at a time.

xbryanx 15 years ago |

This is one of the reasons I love my technology work at a non-profit. Sure I make lots less, but they are extremely generous with paid time off. Our institutional culture encourages people taking vacations, and while we have serious tight deadlines, people still support a healthy life-work balance.

Aloisius 15 years ago |

If the US had the culture of taking off August, it would be far easier to take off 3 weeks since everyone in your company would be doing it. Logistically however I don't really understand how taking August off works in Europe. Where does everyone go? Doesn't it get super crowded?

yardie 15 years ago | |

Most of the French head south to the riviera, or north to brittany, basically any place with a beach nearby.

The roads are packed so you'll usually see a traffic report with them interviewing people taking a picnic on the side of the road, complete with wine and cheese of course. Also, its part of the draw. When there is a known crowd coming most of the hotels and restaurants pull out all the stops: foods, drinks, live entertainment. A lot of these seaside towns can be quite sleepy during the winter so its sort of a big deal.

And, quite a few of my colleagues have family that moved south for the warmer weather, some just head out to visit family.

Goladus 15 years ago | | |

That sounds like a large-scale version of what happens every summer weekend in New England as Boston and its suburbs head to the cape.

fosk 15 years ago | |

Every year in Italy there are 16M people moving to the coasts on August (for 2-3 weeks), and then moving back to cities at the end of the month. This happens mostly on August, but the same happens for Christmas (for 1-2 weeks), Easter (for 3-4 days, sometimes 1 week) and Carnival (for 3-4 days - before Easter, usually in February). The number of days depends on "bridge days", if Easter falls on Wed, then usually people can relax from Mon to Thu ("bridge" because links the end of the previous week to the end of the fest).

These are the average numbers, for sure there's someone with less/more vacation.

yxhuvud 15 years ago | |

Most people stay at home or in their summer residence for most of the time.

utefan001 15 years ago |

My employer is hiring and offers 5 weeks of vacation after the first year. Must be a US citizen. No remote work. http://woti.com/benefits.cfm http://woti.com/jobs.cfm

fady 15 years ago |

american - working for a company i love, but i find it hard to even write long articles on HN because of the fear of "slacking"..i would love to elaborate more and explain why im slowing starting my own web design co for my traveling laptop days i so dream about....

code_duck 15 years ago |

The corporate overlords don't have time for us to enjoy ourselves. Is there any other explanation?

andrewcross 15 years ago |

This is very similar to an article that made it to the first page yesterday: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573664

Still, the more awareness that this topic gets, the better!

alexjgough 15 years ago |

Exactly. I'm bright and awesome, but this one thing puts me off moving to the USA.

samlevine 15 years ago |

Does anyone else here prefer to have shorter vacations and higher pay? I've taken a few vacations in my life and they've tended to be less fun than working (at least after the first 3 days. Before that it's awesome).

camiller 15 years ago | |

well..... as long as we are being truthful, after 10 days vacation with a wife and two kids getting back to work is a relief. I'm often more stressed by vacation than work, but one of my children has "special needs" and despite the fact that I love him with all my heart, the constant monitoring what he eats, what he is doing, if he has craped himself, etc. takes a lot out of a vacation. That said, next year in February I'm taking a 2 week trip to South America with just my daughter and meeting up with some cousins and other extended family from both the states and Ecuador and Panama. My south American cousins I haven't seen in thirty years. I'm very much looking forward to it. ( and on that note, I think I'll have to post a "ask HN" on language learning options to brush up on my 25 years forgotten high school Spanish (if one doesn't exist already).

gst 15 years ago |

Do US employers (especially startups) typically agree to agree to offer unpaid vacations? Or are those 0 to 10 or 15 days really a hard limit?

Kratos 15 years ago |

Why is this on HN? Please, bring back the no politics rule. If you want to talk politics on the internets, there are plenty of other sites out there.

siphr 15 years ago |

Who linked this piece of crap and why is at the top? Utter nonsense! Whoever shared this, please consider opra winfrey websites or others of those sort.

beedogs 15 years ago | |

good to see the new users raising the level of discourse here.

code_scrapping 15 years ago |

Well, that's just sad. You do know that the rest of the world is having problems at finding a job at all, or at least getting paid on regular basis? Cry me a river.

GFischer 15 years ago | |

That isn't a constructive comment at all, not to mention untrue: here in Uruguay we have a record low unemployment, for example (and zero unemployment in IT).

Whether you'd be willing to work for my wage is another problem, but I do have 20 days' worth of paid vacations.

code_scrapping 15 years ago | | |

You're right, I wasn't being constructive, but neither is this article if you consider that this isn't US-only. I'm also certain that millionaires also have a lot of personal problems, and yet also find little empathy from other people. I admit, I have not checked the current situation of Uruguay, or many other countries for that matter, yet I'm pretty certain that "I'm afraid to go on a vacation, my boss is treating me bad" is a personal and not a IT issue at all.

Want constructive comments - give constructive topics.