Ask HN: Do you wake up with anxiety? I am just a regular software engineer at a Silicon Valley company. I go to bed and wake up with anxiety on an almost daily basis. It all seems to stem from work. Psychologically and philosophically speaking, the root cause is not work, rather my own mind etc. but :shrug: I want to do a pulse check to see how common it is for folks working in tech, to suffer from this level of anxiety. |
One thing that was crucially important for me was to understand the biological causes of anxiety and how it occurs in the human brain. The book Rewire Your Anxious Brain by Catherine Pittman and Elizabeth Karle helped me a great deal. The biggest insight that I got from that book was understanding that there are two distinct causes for anxiety (one that comes directly from external stimuli and one that comes from our thought processes) which we need to deal with in fundamentally different ways. The book gives a lot of advice and strategies for coping with both causes and I highly recommend it.
I always wonder in discussions like this how much more common they make the issue seem, because people don't exactly start threads saying "Ask HN: I don't have anxiety, and everything is great, is that common?"
For me, anxiety is very bad, and often results from stressful situations, bad relationships and uncontrollable risks. My recommendation is: take notes of all your worries in the morning, try to find a way to address them; if some can’t be address then it’s no longer a problem. Friends and family also can help with anxiety a lot!
>Naval Ravikant on Happiness, Reducing Anxiety, Crypto Stablecoins, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show - YouTube
https://youtu.be/HiYo14wylQw?t=2376 for the anxiety bit.
You're not going to get that without a poll. Do a poll
The format of your post is going to mostly get affirmatives and thoughtful advice.
BTW, I do not wake with anxiety.
The root of all suffering is the mind. So, you got that right.
If this is something you want to change you'll need to work on it, obviously. There are many paths to the solution you seek as it is a perennial problem of intelligence.
I have ways to recognize this kind of anxiety now and basic steps / thought exercises to turn anxious energy into more productive positive thoughts.
It didn't take a lot of analysis to figure out the implications of that pattern. Everyone is different, but sometimes it may be fair to say that the root cause is work.
I also tend to make lists ~1-2 hours before going to bed, categorised by project, for the next day, so that I can let go of all the tasks that I can't accomplish right now. I really like Things (paid app for macOS / iOS) for that purpose, but also toyed with org-mode and task-warrior.
Strange that you mention task lists, but OP should listen. Offloading thoughts sounds like a good way to decrease anxiety.
Yeah if I go over 2 double-espresso's... there's no purpose for it at that point. I just get tweaky, can't sit still.
Caffeine is much stronger than society lets on.
I was having a lot of trouble waking up with my heart racing and feeling a lot of anxiety. Turned out I had sleep apnea, and what I was experiencing was a response to not breathing for 10 seconds at a time while asleep.
I started exercising a lot more and now find I am so tired I don't wake up before my alarm, reducing alcohol intake helped too.
I worked for a FAANG (Amzn Bayarea) for 5yrs and it was worst 5yrs of my life.
My current situation is I have Vocal Cord Dysfunction and Laryngospasm. In addition to host other problems like GERD, GI, sinus infections, cold sores. NONE of which I had before starting this job. Before this job, I was at the pinnacle of my health.
It wasn't so much the work which I actually loved, but the people and company's methodology for recognition, reviews and promotion.
It basically got down to two things:
1. Bullying.
2. Systematic discrimination.
I created an entire department from scratch, built it to 20+ people when I left and became one of the most talkabout group. I worked multiple days/nights straight, weekends and late nights to make it all work for 3+ yrs. A lot of which was getting down to my hands and knees sweat type even though I am a PM.
So what did I get? My role was replaced by an insider who influenced the hirer to hire all of his friends and replace my role as department head. Then I got relegated to the bottom of the org structure. My name is on everything on this org which eventually all got replaced by my replacements. I simply quit after all doors closed due to notes in HR files I'm sure.
My current situation with VCD/Larynogospasm. You do NOT ever want to get to this point. Laryngospasm basically is when your vocal cord closes while it's spasming and you can't breathe. You feel like you're about to die because no matter how hard you try, you can't get a breathe in. Eventually you can breath but like being water boarded, you won't die but the experience is unforgettable. I get this multiple times a day. I can't drive or even play with my kid. In addition, I also have syncope which is blacking out when you cough. There is no remedy or understanding asto why this happens except mental.
Now back to your situation. When they say stress can kill, they really meant it. I feel like I'm going to die every day because of my problems which includes syncope where I blackout coughing.
1. You need to mitigate your stress inducers
2. You need therapy to help you. Men generally don't talk and keep things in. That will kill you.
3. You must find regularity in daily walks outside with sun in nature, away from people.
4. Your own thoughts will bring you down. you must find peace by eliminating your stressors. Worse case you can't, then stop taking it personally because it isn't you, it's them.
I feel absolutely horrible asto what happened to me and feel helpless. However thinking back, I could have done more to help myself. It's all mind games. You must create strategic alliances and maintain some conduit to which people who are decision makers can see and hear you.
Ultimately I now understand the adage of "it's who you know, not what you know."
I realize now why so many upper mgmt are such morons and idiots.
Be good to yourself, talk to someone, take breaks out in nature. You MUST find release for all the stress you're going through. I cannot live with what I have. Matter of fact, I just had a laryngospasm in writing this. I'm reduced to being on my knees, gasping for air, using my O2, ventolin which none helps since they can't reach my lungs.
Letting stress take over your life will kill you.....
Good luck and take care of yourself because NO ONE will.
Nice guys truly do finish last....
I'm next to you
Cortisol gives us "panic", it's how we wake. Not showing off, just figure it could help your research.
Factors that help me coping when it hits anyway: - Breath slowly, deeply and on exhale remind myself that its only temporary - Put my feet on a cold floor - Smile and nod - Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (google it) - Walk outside
The best combination has been cutting sugar definitely plus a lot of sports (freeletics + a lot of running. Running helps A LOT)
You can't imagine how sugar affects anxiety before cutting it entirely. This is insane. Just having some sugar raises my anxiety for a few days.
Just try to follow Escapado advice and you'll endure it way more easily.
I vividly remember one day around that time I was on my way to a therapy session and I started crying in joy while on my bike, literally sobbing because I was so happy about how much my life has improved simply by changing this one variable. I went from "I don't know if I can live like this another year" to "I love my life and I can accept my handicap as an occasional unwanted companion but now I define what my life is and not my anxiety".
For me, after some experimentation and ruling things out one by one, I found it to be bunch of things. First and foremost for me it was caused by work. Those lovely insane deadlines from the board are a big source of anxiety for me. Also, what I am consuming. Consuming from a diet perspective, news, social media etc etc. Oh and dont forget the after work beer or two some days!
My solution that has worked was to do the usual diet tidy up, reduction of alcohol, EXERCISE. Then some thinking on a daily basis. Not the cool kids meditation but more just mindful thankfulness for what my life has given me. With all the craziness in the world, being thankful for the little things made my daily existence more content and happy.
Important to take time out for yourself too. Get yourself a hobby or some other interest that sparks a passion in you again. Or just timeout to do whatever floats ones boat. Your time is important. Even if that means getting up with the lark, do it.
I have also found a technique, by accident, when I am feeling anxious or being confronted with a stressful situation in work or other situations. The technique involves a mental note to almost "rise" above or "tape a step back" from myself and the situation I am in. In real-time too. This enables me to detach from the moment, without going into shutdown and see what is causing the emotional build up. Normally, its the lack of understanding, the known unknowns if you get me. Most worry comes to zilch. Remember that.
Hope this helps you friend.
I try my hardest to do one hour's vigorous walking a day when I can, audiobooked and podcasted to the max. When it's raining cats and dogs I'm doing some yoga (I'm using my free trial of apple fitness but there are loads of similar programmes) and it really helps me. It's 100 times more effective than self-medicating.
I still wake sometimes but less often and when I do, I'll get out of bed for 10 mins (cooling down seems to help) and, daft though it sounds, repeat to myself that I'm in control of what I feel.
Anxiety is absolutely horrible and I think you've got to experience it to realise how awful it can be.
Substances: - Coffee. Max 2 cups p/day with a 3pm cut-off time - Keep alcohol to a minimum (special occasions only) - Eliminate all other recreational drugs (Cocaine, MDMA etc..)
Diet: - Cut out fast food, junk food & refined food - Keep sugar consumption to a minimum - Eat lots of fruit and veg, especially leafy greens - Drink lots of water - Reduce meat consumption (I eat meat 1-2 x per week)
Exercise: - Lift heavy weights 3-4 times per week - Walk daily for at least an hour in nature/away from traffic and noise - Go running or do HIIT regularly (Anything to get heart rate elevated) - Move around, a lot. Get up from your desk every hour
Job: - Find something you enjoy, are good at and can be paid for - Find something challenging, do not become complacent - Work with good people who you can learn from - Keep commuting time to a minimum
Finances: - Gain a stable regular income - Cut away all unnecessary expenses - Clear existing debts - Start saving
Relationship: - If it's not working, fix it or end it. Don't procrastinate, don't delay - I personally feel more mentally stable when I'm single
This all started about six months into quarantine. Went away briefly but now back with a vengeance.
While I do have some personal drama going on, I'm thinking SAD is playing some part in this too-- the days are shorter and darker. I was already prone to that pre-COVID.
Mind that your relaxation space and work space are now permanently commingled. You can't get away from work. It lives with you now.
I don't have a solution for you, but hang in there. It should get better when you regain the option of leaving your work at the office.
The result has been several years of easier waking in the morning all year and no more SAD during winter.
The downside is the gloominess of other people’s dimmer lighting is very apparent to me.
I’ve wondered if the pandemic and quarantining has exacerbated this. I don’t have much going on in my life right now besides work, and get little human contact beyond Zoom calls with my coworkers.
I would not self-diagnose here. I'm not sure what the :shrug: conveys, but you seem to somewhat downplay the anxiety by saying it's all in your own mind. I'd definitely seek professional help. It's pretty great, it's like debugging your mind and will help you further in your professional life.
- Devs can be dicks to each other
- Managers can be dicks to devs and vice versa
- Devs need to get outside more, not just when travelling to work
- Devs should look up and not play games at lunchtime
- Devs should not eat their lunch at their desk
- Devs should enjoy good coffee but not be weird about it
- Devs should mix with others in the company, even sales and admin
- Devs should leave their work at work
- Devs should go outside to places where they can find a partner
- Devs should say hello to people when they arrive in work
- Devs should say goodbye to people when they leave work
- Devs should either walk, run, climb, garden, chop wood, sail, fish, build and/or go out for dinner at the weekend.
Therapy: The focus was on techniques from cognitive behavior therapy.
Job: Don't do this if it doesn't make sense for you. I crunched the numbers and found I could last 2 years on my savings without much struggle (I was young, single, and debt free, this was not as much as it sounds as my apartment was cheap). I got another job immediately, though.
Exercise: I found that being healthier reduced my general anxiety and depression symptoms right off the bat. But running, for me, is also incredibly relaxing as it is "mindless". 30-60 minutes of "move a leg, move a leg, breathe, move a leg, move a leg, breathe". Whatever anxiety I left work with disappears after a run. I've maintained a pretty consistent (except for last year, and a couple periods with injuries) exercise routine since discovering this.
For me, creating that clean break at the end of the workday did wonders for my general anxiety but also for my sleep (and poor sleep itself exacerbates anxiety and depression). I was going to bed thinking about technical problems or other work issues (frustrations with project directions, with poor management decisions, etc.), and consequently slept poorly. Letting go of work with my after work runs meant my evenings were mine again, and my sleep significantly improved. Being fitter also improves sleep, at least for me. I kind of let myself go last year, but started exercising again in December. I have been falling asleep faster and sleeping more soundly than any time in 2020.
I don’t agree that the root cause is in your mind - it is as much an issue with your actions as it is with your attitude. A lot of great advice in this thread (about healthy eating, exercise, etc) but the key in my opinion is to test these suggestions thoroughly to find what works for you. And discipline is super important - otherwise you can’t trust your results are really due to the changes you make in your life or just a random coincidence.
Most mornings I wake up and feel reasonably ok. I've had much darker periods in my past and think I'm in a pretty good place these days.
I try not to check my phone right away and instead read or write a bit as the day gets started.
At least two walks outside in the sun with music or a podcast or silence.
Meditate every day. Work out or run daily. Try to eat reasonably clean, lots of veggies and fruit.
Journaling a few times a week. Therapy twice a month, mostly focused on relationship stuff.
Time every day to focus on myself, my hobbies, my friends, good music, drawing, writing, reading.
No notifications on my phone while I'm trying to focus. Clear communication with my team around deliverables, dates, and issues.
On the philosophical front, reading Alan Watts' Wisdom of Insecurity helped a lot.
I've done therapy with mixed success. I just haven't found a therapist that I click with.
The big thing is that I have to be mindful of what my triggers are and avoid them. A big one for me is stress and uncertainty about what will go wrong next. So I have to be cognizant of that when I'm looking for a job. I avoid rolls where I have to do production support, and especially on call rotations. I did that for 10 years and it just wore me down to nothing. I've also learned that I need to avoid early stage start ups due to the financial instability causing stress.
Thankfully my last 2 jobs have been good for me from a stability point.
#2 is very effective in going back to sleep and has yet to get old / used up after years of use.
Reasoning one’s way out of anxiety is an attempt to avoid fear. Fear asks: “what if X happens to me?” Avoidance is an attempt to short-circuit the fear: “Oh, don’t worry! X can’t happen because of Y.” This may provide quick relief, but your anxiety is just as motivated as you are. It’s only a matter of time before the anxiety undermines Y with another doubt. So next, you need to prove Z, so that Y will definitely be true, so that you don’t have to be afraid of X. At each step of the way, you’re training your brain to believe that X is truly so dangerous that you must do everything in your power to get it off your mind. This causes the fear and the anxiety to get worse, not better. This is not the path that gets you where you want to be.
Avoidance can take many forms - rationalizing is just one of them. Even very healthy behaviors can be avoidant if you’re using them to run away from your anxiety.
If you’re struggling with anxiety, I can’t recommend psychotherapy strongly enough. Preferably, from a practitioner of evidence-based treatments such as CBT. Anxiety is so treatable! It’s amazing how manageable our worst fears can seem once we’ve learned how to approach them.
for me reasoning about something that made me anxious means to find the positive things that i can do if that thing does happen.
if i miss the deadline, then the pressure is off. it's only money, i'll need to reduce spending but i'll survive. the customer might cancel their contract? well, at least i don't have to deal with that jerk anymore. actually, why don't cancel the contract?
in other words rationalizing is to realize that X is not as bad as i think it is because or Y. not that it can't happen, but that it will happen, and that i can deal with it.
now i got a plan how to deal with X and so now i no longer need to be anxious about it.
The general healthy advice all worked for me to different degrees.
Exercise, meeting friends and having non-desk/screentime intensive hobbies.
Meeting friends and nurturing those relationships helped hugely. And sadly, the second most effective thing was switching to a less-intense team.
I've definitely seen other friends with unhealthy habits and anxiety in the industry too so I'd try some of these and see if it helps.
And you could definitely try therapy and/or medical help too.
Historically, there were few bad periods. Looking back, each time it was because the environment in work was bad in some way. Either it was objectively bad in a way that I normalized in my head (meaning actually toxic but I considered that behavior normal at the time). Or, simply, you are bad match for actual position you are in. "Software engineering" is not one job, it is more of many different positions requiring different personality kinds.
> Invincible: How we can train our hearts to beat stress and achieve success
> The Healing Power of the Breath: Simple Techniques to Reduce Stress and Anxiety, Enhance Concentration, and Balance Your Emotions
Common or not, if you have anxiety/depression it means something is not right.
If you can afford, try therapy, go to a psychologist. It is better to get professional help than to get random free advice from the internet. And also: eat properly, sleep properly, exercise properly...
The day of my return, as I drove in, I noticed I felt physically sick. It took me a few moments to realise it was anxiety, and that I had forgotten what it felt like.
I handed in my notice 3 days later.
It's not a perfect strategy, but it helps to remind me not to be in a peak or trough, and instead think and see things long term and from a higher perspective.
I feel physically sick just thinking about joining the morning standup from home.
Working remotely has made it cutting off from work much easier.
I end up feeling anxious and guilty and sad all day.
Magnesium(Mg+) was especially good for me. I noticed a difference in only a half hour. This is easy to try: you needn't see a doctor, replace all the light bulbs in your house, wear a Holter monitor, be psychoanalyzed or spend 3 months in a therapy group, learn "box breathing" or join an exercise class (although long term those may help).
Stop at the next drugstore, buy a bottle of magnesium tablets, pop two and be on your way. In twenty minutes you'll know whether it's helping. FWIW "TUMS" is a mix of calcium and Mg+ (a bit low on the Mg+ to be a supplement but enough to tell if it's missing from your diet).
There are too many people out there who have a lousy diet and b/c they are missing one or two ingredients in that diet, are totally screwed up. Sad.
Disclaimer: I am not a professional in medicine of any kind, just another techie, recovering from the depths of anxiety.
Do not blame yourself for your anxiety. Look for causes in your environment. By the shrug you seem to accept it, yet you know it's wrong.
Seek help, be it professional or supportive environment outside work, be it a new hobby, be it sky watching, etc... Add different stimulii to your mind before going to sleep.
Once you find out what is wrong, address it. Is your anxiety caused by uncertainty? What uncertainty? Do you have control over it?
BTDT, never again. All the money one making will all go to health care. There are plenty of discussions on HN about recovery advice.[0]
That’s a great question, and the answer is: it depends! In the abstract, what you’re describing sounds like the opposite of avoiding a feared consequence. With fears, you want to be able to look them right in the face and say: “Yeah. That might happen. I can’t predict the future and I can’t know for sure. But if the worst does happen, I will find a way to accept that reality and adapt to it as best I can.”
(This sounds simple, but if you’re in the habit of avoiding fears, it won’t be easy at first. Your brain will twist itself into a pretzel to work out some way of avoiding the feared thing. This is where therapy is so useful: a professional knows how to guide you through a process of learning better mental/behavioral habits, and they have helped many people before you).
The nuance is intent. It’s healthy coping to open yourself up to the scary uncertainty and possibility that something bad may happen, and to commit to finding a way forward if and when that happens. But it may be avoidance if you’re trying to PROVE to yourself that there’s nothing to fear. It can also be avoidance to identify every possible scenario that might unfold and how you would deal with it - in that case, you’re trying to avoid the uncertainty by mapping it all out. (You can tell that this may be happening because your thinking becomes pretty baroque, and it always seems like there’s just one more scenario that needs to be mapped out and “fixed”.)
Generally, we humans have a hard time tolerating uncertainty. But the truth is, almost everything in life is uncertain to some degree.
There is a difference also between taking a realistic assessment of the facts of a situation for the purpose of making a realistic, fact-based assessment, versus “lawyering” the facts to get to a preferred conclusion. The former is healthy and appropriate: anxiety does skew our perception of facts, and it’s good to ground ourselves in objective evidence, whatever that evidence might say. The latter is an attempt to reassure the fear away, and the relief it offers just doesn’t “stick.” The anxiety tends to come back with a new what-if: “Oh yeah? You can handle losing that customer? Well what if you you lose several customers all at once? Then you won’t make your mortgage payment!” If you notice that happening, you want to slap a big, sticky label on that thought: that’s anxiety! And the answer is: “I don’t know. Yeah, I might lose every customer at the same time, lose my house, and end up on the street. But how likely is this? Is it an appropriate use of my time to plan for this contingency right now?”
As an example, trying to come up with reasons why the thought does not apply or is stupid is engaging with it. Trying to reason with the thought is engaging with it. Asking "how likely is this really?" is also engaging with it. Your anxious mind will always tend to fire new arguments at you, new doubts, and you'll just be giving the pointless thought more weight by ruminating on it. Just let the thought come and go, and then sit with the feeling of anxiety until it goes.
The book "Overcoming unwanted intrusive thoughts" by Seif and Winston is a very nice book about this approach to dealing with anxiety.
And you're right -- trying to evaluate how likely the feared event is can be a form of engaging with the anxiety. You can even start cultivating satellite fears about whether you've got the right read on the situation and so forth.
Nevertheless, I would caution against a blanket rule that says "never touch an anxious thought." Sometimes, you need to make a decision. Let's say you're feeling feverish, and you think: "maybe I have COVID-19!" It is appropriate to fetch the thermometer from the medicine cabinet and check your temperature -- once. If the reading is normal, and you have the impulse to check again 30 minutes later, that would a good time to simply label the anxious thought and refrain from responding to it.