Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers(cheapskatesguide.org) |
Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers(cheapskatesguide.org) |
Here's the main problem with the article.
Nowadays, Linux is a profit-driven operating system. Probably not in the direct sense, yet it is.
You want people implementing hardware support? You need developers, and pay them.
You need integration between the various system components? Same.
And so on...
If it looks old, but isn't, it's Retro.
mpv + youtube-dl, yes, it would.
The Linux kernel famously only guarantees outside stability of interfaces, but in-kernel interfaces are regularly changed - one might suspect intentionally, to make the lives of people doing off-kernel work (such as graphics card drivers) as difficult as possible so that they will eventually open source their code and ship it in the kernel.
Code that is outside of the tree will need someone who goes through all of the refactorings manually.
This problem exists because people, like this author, who are in to vintage systems aren't taking up the mantle to maintain a distribution to support their old systems. It's like they want the benefit with zero effort. Become a leader, start the work and organize a community to take your favorite distribution and make it work on your legacy system.
> Either they are filled with bugs, refuse to install on my computer's hard drive, require too much RAM, run too slowly, lack important drivers or codecs, are no longer actively supported, do not support 32-bit CPU's, are too difficult for novices to use, or have other highly-annoying problems like, for example, poor use of swap space.
Most of these problems could be tackled without having to invent a whole new distribution – bugs can be fixed, swap usage can be tuned, drivers can be packaged and added, etc. Any of these, apparently, would make one or several currently borderline useful distribution into a fully usable one.
Or maybe not, going by OP's other blog posts (e.g. https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/surf-internet.html) they're proud of not understanding how Linux distributions work. ("the same number of bugs as the average Linux distribution"?!, Complaining that lightweight distributions don't have as many preinstalled programs as big ones, dpkg -i'ing random packages designed for other distributions, …)
Holy shit, he/she is very uninformed. Pandora plays perfectly with some CLI player (I can't remember it's name), and for youtube damn mpv with youtube-dl (my config for my trash machine) will play any 720p video fast as hell.
~/.config/mpv/config:
vo=gpu,drm
sws-fast=yes
sws-allow-zimg=no
zimg-dither=no
vd-lavc-skiploopfilter=allSwap is configured by the user. You do need to know what you're doing in order to configure it to your usecase.
edit "but many over pay for the best of everything simply because they are unwilling to understand what they really need or learn how to make do with less" - old man yelling at clouds
The problem is, you need the whole system to support, say, 386. So one solution would be to use the last version of your distro supporting it, and then compile each new piece of software. Realistically, you would use another (modern) machine for cross-compilation of any significant piece of software, and you will definitely encounter some interesting quirks. Nevertheless, it's doable, as long as you are willing to accept you're running an unpatched kernel.
I had a Dell C400 about 12yrs ago running on P3m. But, it was light and compact but dated back then and running Windows XP. So, I learned how to install back then Gentoo and it ran beautifully. I would of held onto it but the battery wouldn't last and couldn't find a good replacement.
I kinda having the same issue with my Samsung Chromebook XE303C12 today lol. But it's limited by soldered on hardware and I think the display driver is closed source.
Windows is a lot more stable in that regard, and mainframes are not even on the same league.
It is a choice made by the Linux community, it goes very well with its open source nature and it has advantage in terms of performance and ease of implementing new features, but the drawback is that you can't keep compatibility without active maintenance.
Linux-the-kernel has not only a stable API, but also a stable ABI, and you can run 20 years old software compiled against that ABI just fine.
The problem is that the userland doesn't give a fuck and breaks itself every other day just for the lulz, starting with the glibc, which doesn't even allow fully static compilation.
So you'll have to use 20 years old versions of everything (but the kernel), which makes running one piece of old software nonviable… but that's hardly the kernel's fault.
Linux doesn't need money to make a living, software maintainers do.
> I see no valid reason for it not supporting every computer that can still be useful.
I assume the author is willing to pay all the people who are going to maintain all of those "computers that can still be useful" instead of demanding that they conjure spare time for that out of nowhere.
As much as I share the sentiment of keeping old hardware alive and useful, reality requires a question of "who's going to work on that".
In other words, because it is a community project made by volunteers that earn nothing, there is no valid reason not to demand more unpaid work.
>In a more enlightened society, all products would be supported for as long as they remain useful. The time has come to stop building obsolescence into our computers and make the small effort required to provide user-friendly distributions of Linux that support near-vintage computers.
The only reason this person believes it is a "small effort" is because she has never ever remotely helped doing the effort herself.
I have made such effort myself. I have been part of Linux user groups and helped lots of people. I have experienced myself what is helping enormously someone for only this person demanding more free work and time just because I have already given her free work and time.
We have given talks in the University: If you want to install Linux do research when you buy a computer so it has compatible components because life is much easier and then the same people attending buying incompatible hardware and demanding us to fix it for them, so she could do the classes ' assignments, because that's what we "enjoyed doing".
"Linux developers are suffering from the Microsoft disease. Namely, they seem to be too busy chasing the latest fads"
This is also a ridiculous statement. It has traditionally always been Microsoft that wasn't chasing the latest fads. Microsoft has always been late to any new developments and technologies. Apple and Linux have always been the first in class there.
If you want a well supported operating system on your old computer, install Windows on it. Don't rely on the work of enthousiasts that are just trying to build the best next thing.
I look forward to seeing the author’s low-resource Linux distribution; since they’ve identified that as a small-effort task, I expect it won’t take them long to ship it.
I did all the thing I do now 15 years ago on my laptop. Sure video quality have improved, screen resolution have increased and I can do more stuff online, if I want to. All the daily stuff, browsing the web, hobby programming and paying my bills online, why can't I do that with 1 or 2GB of RAM?
We could do 100Mbit networking 15 years ago, or even 20 years ago, so the increased network speed shouldn't be an issue.
The network speed is by no means an issue. The problem is that all websites feel the need to mess with their DOM and execute megabytes of JavaScript just to do basic tasks. Then your bottleneck becomes the processor speed and the amount of RAM, the latter a larger obstacle in my experience.
GNU userspace as well as the Linux kernels have not abandoned 32bit x86.
And then there's throwing away 386 compatibility in 2012 and now they want to nuke a bunch more.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=2021-Lin...
Also both have solved the 2038 problem on 32 bit systems years ago. I think Linux is very close to solving it (or may have already), but that is for newer kernels. I expect Linux will probably drop 32 bit support with in a few years.
It has Windows 2000 installed and I tried many small Linux distributions. DSL runs fine.
You have to lower your expectations, but you can have a nice little system to play around with. You also won't have a modern browser, but, even if you did, you wouldn't have enough RAM or CPU to use most sites.
My conclusion is that if you want to keep such a machine working, you would have to find some specific job for it to do, such as monitoring, honeypot, playing a specific game, text editing, etc.
Try compiling a modern TLS under /opt, compile and link a new mbedtls library, and try compiling Dillo from Mercurial.
Edit ~/.dillo/dillorc in order to set the User Agent to either PSP or Opera Mini 3. Or better, Lynx. The Lynx one. Web pages got lovely formatted where supported:
http_user_agent="Lynx/2.8.9rel.1 libwww-FM/2.14 SSL-MM/1.4.1 OpenSSL/1.1.1k"
Also, edit ~/.dillo/dillorc in order to make cookies work.
For example: DEFAULT DENY
.news.ycombinator.com ACCEPT
.news.ycombinator.com ACCEPT_SESSION
Bam!! Modernish web "support" for your browser. HN should work, and a lot more too.Connecting it to the internet would be another matter.
As I'm learning Cobol (banking), and Forth with 4th, that machine would be really useful to me in 2021. As for gaming, slashem will run on that for sure, and IF games run on anything with a 386/68020 and beyond.
Perhaps the features you want are a byproduct of this "disease" then? If you don't want bloated software you may need to get off the bloated software express train and learn how to use something a little more esoteric.
I'm running Sparkylinux on literally that exact model and vintage of Dell laptop and it works fine. It came with an installer and booted fine off of USB, I'm not sure what the problem is. How many vintage hardware aficionados are there who are also unwilling to learn anything new about computers?
A full modern gnome/KDE desktop environment might be a lot more user-friendly than, eg, blackbox - but they also price you out of the 20-year-old laptop. OP wants to have their cake and eat it - and they can, but it will require a bigger plate.
It wasn't originally in my plans for this weekend, but your comment got me concerned I may have misremembered other details. I just tried installing (32 bit) 5.14 off a USB stick and it did, indeed, work just fine. Sorry you had trouble with your config :(
Don't pick the trendy new distribution of the year if you want something usable on old hardware.
If you want a modern web browser then you need a computer made in the last 10 years or so. The statement that "It's just a browser!" is not a good argument. The modern web is very resource intensive so you need a decent computer.
For Slackware, enable ZRAM:
wget -O /etc/rc.d/rc.zram https://raw.githubusercontent.com/otzy007/enable-zRam-in-Slackware/master/etc/rc.d/rc.zram
sed -i 's,1024,512,g' /etc/rc.d/rc.zram
chmod +x /etc/rc.d/rc.zram
echo '/etc/rc.d/rc.zram start' >> /etc/rc.d/rc.local
Easy GUI on Slackware:You won't need Plasma or XFCE. For sure. Deselect them, as lightweight apps are more than enough. Setup Slackbuild thru sbotools. Then, sboinstall icewm and configure it:
- IceWM. Edit the preferences so the fonts match the GTK3 theme. "fc-list | grep fontname" will help you on that.
- Some matching IceWM and GTK3/2 theme. Metal2 from IceWM matches perfectly the Solaris 8 theme from B00merang, Google/DDG it.
- XFE as the file manager, the colour scheme can be changed with ease so it matches the GTK3 colours.
- "udiskie &" in ~/.icewm/startup.
- "nm-applet &" appended to the same file.
- Seamonkey as the web browser, with UBo Legacy.
- AlienBOB has a Chromium build, and I have a huge envvar for Chromium in order to be run fast on machines with at least 1GB of RAM. It's too large in order to be posted here, but I can post it under a separate self-answer to this post.
- Audacious as the audio player, SMplayer for videos.
- For gaming, Slackware has several Slackbuilds with light games. And Wine with multilib.
- Ted/Gnumeric make an amazing and lightweight alternative to LibreOffice.
I suggest MOC as an alternative music player and mpv for videos.
However, they don't cater for every situation, every computer that exists. So somebody will be needed to cater for those few cases that aren't covered by mainstream distros.
Now, that somebody has to have good knowledge of Linux and be able to recompile/rewrite whatever is needed for that idiosyncratic distro that works for that particular edge case.
If a few people insist on using an uncommon computer, they have to take on the responsibility of keeping mainstream Gnu Linux working on those particular computers. Or else be satisfied with the older versions of Gnu Linux that were working previously on those computers.
ASIDE: I like making emulators of old 8-bit computers. But I don't try to make those old computers use modern software, they use the CP/M software that was extant at the time those 8-bit computers were made.
Edit: Quite a few other folks in this comment section seem to have pointed out basically the same thing.
Edit: I know exactly what would be the optimal solution and it is two-port SATA drive. Rasberry and the old Laptop would share the same drive. Even I could write necessary routines starting from "scrot". And other I/O like keyboard and touchpad would be equally easy. But no two-port drives in Ebay.
Old devices need retiring, like old cars.
Old windows of that vintage can no longer talk modern SMB but Debian i386 can just fine, so I boot debian on it to transfer data from the internet or other modern machines. LXDE is perfectly usable, although I admit I haven't tried a web browser in some time.
They want somebody to write, test and maintain a distribution that works without bugs and easy enough for newbies, on an almost bottomless pit of historical hardware.
You can have this. It's easy. Just hire a developer or two. Oh, you want it for free too?!
You don't have to argue with the many technical issues in the post, the author doesn't deserve the oxygen.
If running new software is so important just buy a new computer!?
I think your posts underlines an important fact: Nowadays more and more tasks require an up-to-date internet browser. These browsers need a lot of RAM. Both their complexity and the websites' is increasing all the time.
> The statement that "It's just a browser!" is not a good argument. The modern web is very resource intensive so you need a decent computer.
The modern web is resource intensive, but not that resource intensive, unless you insist on keeping a myriad of tabs open and active.
A Linux desktop with half a dozen webapps open in Chrome (and more tabs suspended) can still stay under 3GB RAM used (I'm clocking in at 2.2 right now), so it's still viable on 32 bit hardware.
3GB RAM dualcore notebooks were available 15 years ago, and for the past ten years you could retrofit them with SSDs for reasonably cheap.
Both together are like 150 bucks according to a brief ebay survey, that's a very low bar for "decent".
/etc/profile.d/chrome.sh and chmod +x it.
If you use Chromium, replace CHROME_USER_FLAGS with CHROMIUM_USER_FLAGS .
#!/bin/sh
export CHROME_USER_FLAGS=" --no-default-browser-check --no-pings --no-wifi --no-recovery-component --no-report-upload --safebrowsing-disable-download-protection --safebrowsing-disable-extension-blacklist --safebrowsing-disable-auto-update --arc-disable-app-sync --arc-disable-locale-sync --arc-disable-play-auto-install --arc-force-cache-app-icons --ash-disable-touch-exploration-mode --autofill-server-url about:config --block-new-web-contents --bwsi --cloud-print-uri about:config --cloud-print-xmpp-endpoint about:config --connectivity-check-url about:config --crash-server-url about:config --cryptauth-http-host about:config --cryptauth-v2-http-host about:config --cryptauth-v2-enrollment-http-host about:config --data-reduction-proxy-config-url about:config --data-reduction-proxy-pingback-url about:config --data-reduction-proxy-server-experiments-disabled --device-management-url about:config --disable-background-networking --disable-client-side-phishing-detection --disable-data-reduction-proxy-warmup-url-fetch --disable-data-reduction-proxy-warmup-url-fetch-callback --disable-default-apps --disable-demo-mode --disable-device-disabling --disable-device-discovery-notifications --disable-dinosaur-easter-egg --disable-domain-reliability --disable-cloud-import --disable-component-cloud-policy --disable-eol-notification --disable-gaia-services --disable-login-screen-apps --disable-machine-cert-request --disable-notifications --disable-ntp-popular-sites --disable-ntp-most-likely-favicons-from-server --disable-offer-upload-credit-cards --disable-offer-store-unmasked-wallet-cards --disable-password-generation --disable-permission-action-reporting --disable-proximity-auth-bluetooth-low-energy-discovery --disable-push-api-background-mode --disable-remote-core-animation --disable-signin-promo --disable-signin-scoped-device-id --disable-suggestions-ui --disable-sync-app-list --disable-sync --disable-system-timezone-automatic-detection --disable-test-root-certs --disable-wake-on-wifi --feedback-server about:config --gcm-checkin-url about:config --gcm-mcs-endpoint about:config --gcm-registration-url about:config --google-apis-url about:config --google-base-url about:config --google-doodl-url about:config --google-url about:config --light --lso-url about:config --market-url-for-testing about:config --oauth-account-manager-url about:config --optimization-guide-service-url about:config --override-metrics-upload-url about:config --permission-request-api-url about:config --realtime-reporting-url about:config --search-provider-logo-url about:config --sync-url about:config --third-party-doodle-url about:config --trace-upload-url about:config --variations-insecure-server-url about:config --variations-server about:config"In the kernel itself, however, drivers have to be constantly maintained, which is a PITA if your driver is not in the mainline, but very nice if it is, especially if there is someone to do the job of maintaining it for you.
Again, choices are made, you can't have everything. The ones that led to Linux are good, we know that with the power of hindsight, seeing how successful it has became, not because everything about it is positive (it can't).
On Delicate Linux, once you get libressl at /opt and try to configure mbedtls to read "libressl" before SSL, Dillo would have a modern crypto stack and it would be really good for old machines.
If you have access to systems capable of doing that, usually the need for using such old systems doesn't exist. Except if you'd like to have some X-terminals, or hand them down (refurbished) to relatives, some community projects, or similar.
I'd go for something like Antix because that way you have access to the almost infinite binary package repositories.
Or not so old ones with HDMI/DP easily anything 22 to 24" @1920x1200, as I do.
edit: more screen real estate is always good!
The real issue I'm having is that with all the old 2D graphics acceleration API's being deprecated in X11, you are stuck with Glamor to accelerate desktop compositing, and that only works if you have a later fixed function GPU, or a modern programmable GPU. If you're stuck with an old ATI FireGL like I am, X11 will vomit an error about the GPU not having enough instruction slots to do the job.
Its kind of baffling, the hardware is capable enough to run Half Life 2, but it can't composite a few windows? I'm almost tempted to go compile X11 myself and remove that particular check.
Section "OutputClass"
Identifier "Radeon"
MatchDriver "radeon"
Driver "radeon"
Option "AccelMethod" "EXA"
Option "EXAVSync" "false"
Option "SwapbuffersWait" "false"
EndSection
My GPU: AMD RS690M [Radeon Xpress 1200/1250/1270]10 year old laptops can take either 8 or 16 GB RAM and have at least 2 cores + hyperthreading. It'll not just run perfectly, but it'll run even the most bloated Linux distributions or Win 10 just fine.
20 years ago is AMD Duron and Pentium 4, pretty much just getting past single-core 1 Ghz (various 1.x GHz variants were announced during 2001). very different world.
The exactly ten years old X201 is limited to 8GB RAM, but you can retrofit USB3 with an ExpressCard adapter and it can take one SSD. Two with the optional docking station.
Not all X220 models had USB3 though, only the i7 variant did.
Man, imagine buying a laptop with only 16 GB RAM today.