Why Russians do not smile (2002)(chicagomaroon.com) |
Why Russians do not smile (2002)(chicagomaroon.com) |
The other thing I like about Russian culture is, like a cardiologist or a brain surgeon, finding humor in everything (brain surgeons may find less than they were expecting but they're an optimistic bunch).
A CIA agent is sent on a mission in Moscow.
He goes to a grocery store and writes down in his diary "There is no food".
He then goes to a clothes shop and puts down in the diary "There are no shoes".
He leaves the shop, and a KGB agent waiting for him outside says: "You know, 10 years ago we would have shot you for that."
The CIA agent writes in his diary "There are no bullets".
I hate to say this, but in my little life, I was right.
I have a conniving greedy, but very successful financially, little sister, whom used her smile as a tool.
Might explain why I got along so well with my old German neighbors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desomorphine#Toxicity_of_%22kr...
WTF? I'm very often around Russian and other Slav people and many of them smile plenty.
> In Western culture, and especially in the United States, the smile is an indication of well-being ... In Russian culture the smile is identified with laughter. Russians do not smile unless something funny happens and provides a reason for laughter.
Massive over-generalization. Local culture, personality and personal life background induce much more variability in tendency to smile than whether you're Russian/Slav or not.
Also, the author seems to lump the US and Europe together, something I also frown upon.
Bottom line: I am not smiling at this article.
Yes, but this is about smiling at strangers. Random people on the street, or in the subway. What to many slavs is a type of stupid grin is to many Americans a sign of "being nice". We are not talking about actually smiling, say when you feel genuine warmth towards a friend.
And - plenty of Russians smile during casual interactions with people they don't know personally.
That's your problem right there
Except a human smile is more akin to a canine's greeting/appeasement grin. And much more so like a Chimp's play grin. There are toothy displays in mammals that are not threatening.
I know many Norwegians considers a laughing, smiling idiot just that, an idiot. Unintelligent. Either that or the person smiling and laughing all the time for no apparent reason must be very insecure, or just weird.
Article: Russians do smile
I being Russian just do not keep smile on my face when everything is just fine. I'll keep smiling when things go especially good. I'd laugh evilly^W when they go in unexpectedly good way. But small variations from a statistical average is not enough of an emotional reason to change my facial expression.
Statostical average is the key. If things made a habit of being extremely good, I'd stop smiling when they are extremely good. I'd wait for more exciting occasion.
Does anyone have recommendations of resources where I can read further comparisons? Is there a name for the study of these cultural differences?
Not Russian, but close enough to the Russian space.
It at one point says:
> It was really different from Europe, where people are mostly polite, but quite reserved in their non-verbal expressions.
but it also says:
> Very often Western people criticize Russians for being too gloomy and unfriendly because we never smile.
It seems to be somewhat undecided on whether the smiling culture is a U.S.A. idiosyncrasy, or a “western" one, and it very much is the former, I believe, the U.S.A. cultural emphasis on smiles is wel known throughout most of the world, including most of “the west”.
[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22085568-the-culture-map
I predict that smile incidence will vary in correlation to the ethnic homogeneity of a polity.
I imagine most people in the Middle Ages (and much later) had chipped, missing, buckled, crooked and stained teeth.
Now pristine teeth are a signal of wealth (even though they're usually 100% fake veneers, at least among actors and models) so people want to signal their wealth by smiling prominently.
Also done with slaves, from what I've read. Nowadays it's voluntary, sort of.
Seeing them helps counter the general impression we get from seeing so many dour-faced Victorians from photographs of that era.
[1] - https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/11/24/smiling-victorians...
Well, it's complicated. Glaukopis could also be translated as "blue eyed", or "grey eyed", not just "owl eyed".
Being the goddess of wisdom and handicraft (among other things), perception was a crucial attribute. Having big eyes (like the owl) could be interpreted as having good visual perception.
But it's not just about the size. She's also described as having "bright eyes", or "flashing eyes", or "darting eyes". It's more about the acuity of perception, than about some emotional aspect.
Unfortunately 20th-century photo magazines, TV, and later Instagram and selfies changed that...
[1] https://www.consciousbreathing.com/articles/shut-your-mouth-...
I was offered a tongue depressor by my childhood dentist to help fix a crooked tooth without orthodontia, so when Nestor's book mentioned one orthodontist suggesting that positioning one's tongue to touch the roof of the mouth would matter, I dismissed that part as probably the weakest in the book. That said, the science overall seems to be evolving, research in breathing and the nose apparently increasing, and Nestor is meticulous in maintaining references, including online. Many might be comfortable with some uncertainty and not dismissing this all as pseudoscience. I commend Nestor's reporting.
I also hope that, if industrial civilization eventually passes, and for now where severe poverty without dentistry exists, people will find again whatever practices better prevented dental caries.
But unless you have a secret mucus prevention technique, you'll mouth breathe.
However, I have the impression that this is basically as true today as it was then.
If they're not my family or closest friends, what do I care what mood they're in?
And if they are, I'll ask.
Just greet them with this phrase, and if they laugh in response - they are in a good mood, and if they dont- bad mood
The fact is that russian life is really miserable (just imagine living for 100 years in hardcore totalitarian communism, still in progress with different labels).
There’s really not that many reasons to smile while you grow up & live in Russia.
And you don’t even have a strong quality spiritual platform (like some asian countries) or good climate (like some aftican countries) to compensate.
You don’t waste your attention span on smiling etc - you’re busy surviving and fighting for the best spot in pyramid.
If you smile too much — it could even cause jealousy and you win more enemies or people might consider your positive attitude a sign of softness and take advantage of you.
It’s also suspicious to see someone smiling a lot - its harder to read his underlying subtle motivations & values.
And russians don’t have much time to make friends - the sooner and better you identify like minded people the easier for you as a group to survive.
That’s why russian tend to smile only in a close group of friends or when something really funny is going on.
So far La Paz and bolivian altiplano in general is the only place in South America where I don't want to come back.
Down in Santa Cruz folks are cool though.
It's not every business though, to be sure.
When everything is "awesome" and "amazing" and worthy of a grin, then nothing is.
Despite being born and raised in the midwest US, I get along better with slavic people than most from the west coast.
Some context is due. The article is almost twenty years old. The experiences described there are from a time period when Latvia had gained independence from the Soviet Union only some ten years prior. So, pretty much all the people working in the hospitality industry would be someone whose formative years and/or young adulthood was spent during the nineties.
That was a pretty brutal decade. Rearranging from planned to market economy is hard. Economic crises abound, rampant organized crime, generally high levels of aggression. I come from a small town and I was a kid then, but even then I know of four murders that happened then in my home town. A guy was beaten to death in a nightclub, another guy was thrown from a bridge, my favorite sales clerk at a local store got incarcerated for axe-murdering his wife and her lover, and a body was found in the bushes behind my music school. Ah right, there was also the case of a neighbor massacring a family on a potato field. A friend who lived in Riga during that time told me how his dad always had a peace of metal pipe behind the door. Just in case. In a later interview the guy who was chief of police then revealed how he slept with body armor on at all times.
So, people who were teenagers or young adults then learned to not smile for the same reasons the prison population is not really a cheerful bunch. It's outright dangerous. There's a book and a recently made movie about coming of age as a metalhead in a mid-sized Latvian town during the nineties called Jelgava 94 (Doom 94). It really conveys the look and feel of those times quite well.
It's very different now. Sure, people don't smile as much as Americans (no one except Thais does), and are not as chatty as the Brits. But a lot of people have worked or traveled abroad, have seen and gotten accustomed to different cultures. According to my experience pretty much everyone below the age of 25 speak fluent English. And hug. They hug a lot. And yeah, the crime levels are nowhere near to how it was in the nineties.
This is a very questionable claim. I think such association is true for humans in general and even for some mammals.
Their culture just discourages happiness. Look at the Russian literature - that's an ocean of suffering.
I would never perceive them as being depressed. Interesting how your surrounding culture can change your perception of things.
My expectation is that by years end, in Europe and North America at least, mask-wearers will be gently mocked everywhere outside of some large metropolitan areas (which have their own epidemiological concerns), and there won’t be any kind of long-term impact on facial expressions.
[-1] Not the right time to smile https://www.svoboda.org/a/28088763.html
There is strictly no sane reason why a human being should withdraw a smile or any kind of positive emotion or spontaneous expression so long as they are emotionally healthy.
At same time the need for boundaries in our relationships (professional , intimate etc.) is universal, not cultural.
I would love to hear from an evolutionary psychologist if this really is a thing in people. I remember being pretty astounded to learn that smiling monkeys are dangerous; there's no part of my consciousness that thinks of a toothy smile as dangerous.
"Americans precede anything negative with three nice comments; French, Dutch, Israelis, and Germans get straight to the point; Latin Americans and Asians are steeped in hierarchy; Scandinavians think the best boss is just one of the crowd."
That's one theory, another one I've seen is people had bad teeth, but everyone had bad teeth so I don't see how that would be an issue. I like the theory that they thought constant smiling was for simpletons.
https://history.nebraska.gov/blog/why-so-serious-3-reasons-w...
>You can't assume from those portraits that people rarely smiled compared to now.
Where did I say that?
[snip]The English used to feel pretty uncomfortable about yanks grinning away at everything[/snip]
So what would account for the difference? It must've come about after we split as a country.
I wonder if it's our Declaration of Independence including "the pursuit of Happiness". See:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Thus, perhaps, while other places reserve the effort of smiling for the emotion of irrepressible joy, Americans -- to prove they're living a good life -- present a smile.
I don't think that assumption really holds up, it's very pop-history. From the Scots of the Appalachians, the religious fanatics of New England, the garguntuan influence of African-American syncretic culture, the Nordic yeoman of the mid-north-east, the southern European urban influx of the 1900s and the new, exciting Latin American syncretism: America really is a cultural melting pot. Only, really, the Virginia gentry (Jefferson, Washington, et al) can be plainly said to have imported English norms - and still, they were ideological radicals interested in forming a new nation.
The French like to call us (English, Scots, and all the varieties of American) "Anglo-Saxons," but they're hardly right. Don't give them ammo, they're already merciless!
People often assume something's wrong if you never smile, or, worse, frown.
People sometimes have good time (better than avg), sometimes bad time, and sometime neutral time (say.. thinking about some problem to solve, or repeating Swedish vocabulary to learn a new language, or trying to recall the name of a person you just met and you're supposed to remember).
If you're compelled to smile with every interaction, in order to show that you have good time, then it'd mean that you'd be mostly lying according to the aforementioned definition :).
Unless we re-define the 'good time', so it means 'not significantly bad', which seems to be the case here. It's just, that it requires a bit of effort to remember and to switch to when visiting US.
Another historical explanation, as has been mentioned by other commenters, is that it was due to the popularization of African American culture.
But of course, they are just two of the many plausible historical explanations.
Czech people are often brisk in attitude, Berliners on the other hand - that's something else entirely, I wouldn't describe people as unfriendly but everyone acts coldly and mechanically. Could it be that the fractured state of the city made everyone to be like that?
We perceive Americans often as overly talkative and artificially happy. They’re not, it’s just the way they express themselves.
They might not smile as much in public but they do know how to love, be generous and laugh their asses off, just as westerners do. You’d see that once you get to really know these people.
But on the other hand I have barely ever seen a place that is also inhabited with very hedonistic people who laugh and feel openly. It’s quite a weird place to be honest.
Besides my German roots I’m also half Egyptian. Often when western people observe Arabs, they’re gonna think that they are constantly angry. I thought so myself when I was little. But it isn’t true. They have different means of communication and are some of the most welcoming, caring people I’ve ever met.
All comes down to acceptance. Once you accept the cultural differences you got with that other person and adapt to them, you will not feel them as cold or mechanical.
FYI those are fighting words in Prague. My people generally hate everything having to do with Russia, after being controlled by the Soviets since 1948 and outright occupied between 1968 to 1989.
I’ve also seen the “how are you” thing described in comments unfold.
A Hindu pm had the habit of sitting next to developers while they worked, sometimes putting a hand on their knee. After being politely explained that the size of an Estonian personal space is measured in astronomical units and that this was the reason devs literally scattered upon his approach, he immediately changed his behavior and became great friends with the team.
A US lady came to hr complaining about an Ukrainian dev approaching them inappropriately during a party. The hr-person, having witnessed the situation, explained that this was just their way of showing friendly interest and no disrespect was intended. A while later, a Japanese guy came to the hr person complaining the original lady from us had hugged them. Again, it was explained that this is just what Americans do.
Cultures are hard and take a lot of mutual respect to work through.
It's always beneficial, not only when dealing with people of other cultures, to adhere Postel's law [0]: "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept".
“When people grow tired, they call it wisdom”.
FYI for Americans a good rule of thumb is that Americans are comfortable at roughly an arm's length - reach out and touch someone's shoulder with your knuckles - after taking that course this became a company greeting ....
This greeting might not be perceived too well in Germany.
I am French and I work in China with a lot of Indians. It's been interesting for everyone to say the least. I swear and speak my mind way too much for a corporate Indian, so much that when I spoke frankly to someone higher than me telling him his process was useless and was going double our wasted time for really only the appearance of regulatory compliance, all he could say was ... thank you. He d never met a younger subaltern resist a stupid idea in India before, in public :D
And of course it's neither our faults: in a French company we spend maybe more time fighting each other than doing the work, while in India they double their wasteful process every 2 weeks to a point they all do their job well but produce nothing at all :D
Ironically, a lot of people in the European country in which I live feel this way about domestic companies compared to the vibrancy of US corporate culture. Maybe you can elaborate on what you're referring to, preferably with less generalizing of a whole continent of corporate cultures as "European?"
Im French for instance, and we certainly dont work like the german. For us it s all about the game, the gossips, the fightings. Everyone is the CEO and it s hard to remember we have a job to do end of the day.
In Germany I ve heard things are more...rule following.
I work in China now - it's way more result oriented.
The corporate culture BS we have it everywhere, it s part of the internal marketing we all have to do, and it s not really american: it s a way to try and adapt to a workforce that doesnt only focus on the result but also the way it s achieved. And ofc, it s a shortcut, because beyond the surface there s nothing.
TL;DR dont idealize europe, it s a big place.
I see it as a common conflation where people substitute Hindu (religion) with Hindi (language) with Indian (nationality/heritage).
But yes, as an Indian myself, we often have a different understanding of personal space and contact versus European/American cultures. It's not usually meant to be anything malicious, but it is very jarring in comparison.
What was the inappropriate part? Seems useful to know.
Some of us do this. Many don't. I don't like touching others especially in a work environment. It is definitely not a "hindu" thing, so much as an Indian thing.
I would chalk it up to lack of social awareness and no concept of space and personal boundaries. But, I don't think within our societies it is a bad thing.
However, with enough cultural trainings and awareness learnings, we do better at this when we interact with other cultures. The company I work for has a lot of documentation on this for almost all cultures.
Who'd have thought?
No intentional snark at this post. It was very interesting. But crikey ...
From personal experience I find the Russians absolutely hilarious even without much smiling (the young ones smile more).They are somehow similar to Italians,who are also hilarious, but as is the case with the Russians, the funniest things tend to be equally tragic too. Kind of a never ending tragicomedy on full blast.
Also, I have read a few comments in this discussion about how fake American smiles and “how are you?”s are and I have to disagree somewhat. To a large extent Americans use “how are you” and “what’s up” as generic greetings but at the same time you can often tell when someone is using it instead of “hello” vs having 30-120 seconds to chat pretty easily. If my day is going well I make a point of telling the random person I’m interacting with why that is: “I’m doing great. The weather is so nice and I had a lovely cup of coffee on my back porch today.” Quick interaction, mostly meaningless, but to me it’s a nice way to break up the monotony. On the other hand if I’m having a bad day I don’t feel like hiding it but the trick is to not make it the other person’s problem: “I’m getting by. I blew a tire on the way to work and I just had all four tires replaced. But oh well, that’s just how irony works I guess.” Again, quick and simple and not the typical “fine” response. At worst they go “oh that sucks. Paper or plastic?” but more often it could result in a short conversation and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.
It's tough to navigate Americans. They're super friendly, but often I feel like it's their version of "being polite" and not more.
Just yesterday I read https://idlewords.com/2018/12/gluten_free_antarctica.htm which is pretty amusing, and I recommend reading. Quoting the most relevant (to this discussion) part from it:
> “Can I ask you something? How come the Russians never smile? I’ve never seen them smiling.”
> “They’re at work. They're Russians.”
> "Is it normal for them to eat without talking to one another?”
> “This is their job. They get 20 minutes to eat.”
> “Yeah, but they never smile. Are they happy?”
> Are the Russians happy? Is anyone happy? Can one ever truly be said to be happy?
> I am tempted to go full Slav on Conor, to explain to him how we are all just grains of dust suspended in the howling void, searching for meaning in the fleeting moments before we are yanked back to the oblivion from whence we emerged, naked and screaming. But for all his faults he's just a kid stuck spending his summer microwaving Yorkshire puddings for difficult people. I take pity.
> “Russians are formal. It would be weird of them to act relaxed on duty. They are all smiling on the inside.”
Living on the west coast for the last twenty years, the situation is totally different. On a bike trail, on the sidewalk, people often smile and nod at each other. At first it was very off-putting and I found it hard to reciprocate. Over the years I've forced myself to do it so as not to seem unfriendly, but it's been a bit of a chore. That natural paranoia I feel, suspicion about people's motives, is something I grew up with and I don't think I'll ever be able to put it down completely.
What a Russian Smile Means - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17445108 - July 2018 (67 comments)
What a Russian Smile Means - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17381975 - June 2018 (1 comment)
What a Russian Smile Means - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376212 - June 2018 (1 comment)
Do Russians smile at each other? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7491944 - March 2014 (1 comment)
Why do Russians smile so little (and Americans so much?) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2375633 - March 2011 (105 comments)
Pretty sure there have been others. Anybody?
Much as I love the US 'etiquette smile' when passing people in the street and meeting, social pressure to conform can mask stress, anxiety and solemnity. The English used to feel pretty uncomfortable about yanks grinning away at everything but they seem to have partially become Americanized in this regard. (I'm English originally but have lived in the US for decades).
In it, he observes that smiles and jokes and easy conversation are more common among Brits and Americans than many Europeans, and suggests that, as you proceed northward and eastward through the continent, facial expressions tend to grow more sober and the tendency toward small talk fades. Not that these peoples are more unhappy, but there is generally less inclination to idly chat or joke around.
The author offers numerous observations, interpretations, and interviews regarding local perspectives on 'happiness' during his travels. An insightful read that doesn't take itself too seriously.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/09/human-speech-may-hav...
[0] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2215202-all-languages-h...
Note: I don't see other people's smiles as threatening, it just feels that way when I do it.
When you think about it though, a full teethy smile is a weird thing.
There are regional variations in the United States. In New England, NY and other parts of the Northeast, we are often quite serious/stone-faced in public, something that I have heard outsiders from the west coast and South observe. I also was struck by the demeanor of some friends from Brazil who always have a smile on their face, and seem to be more happy and upbeat even when things are not going well.
There was related discussion on HN about smiling and laughter that's worth reading:
From apes to birds, animal species that “laugh” (arstechnica.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27193602
I guess you can't have the best of both world for this stuff.
I'm living in Ireland, and this bit around non-honest smiling just drives me nuts sometimes. Otherwise, it is excellent when you're going for a walk because it creates a positive and inviting atmosphere. But adapting to a constantly cheerful and smiling surrounding was not without a challenge. Do I smile and say hi all the time to every person, or are there exceptions? There is a bit of a learning curve as after 50 smiles and hi's every day, I feel exhausted, LOL.
Someone told me if someone is smiling to you in Russia, they are probably scamming you.
A smile given away too freely for no reason can be perceived as fake and suspicious.
Russia also has dash cams aplenty because apparently pedestrians will willingly jump in front of cars for insurance money. Maybe they're smiling while they do it, but it seems like you can be scammed either way.
Your nutrition changes your smell. You usually do not consciously notice except for very strong smells like from garlic or asparagus consumption. But a lot of food has this effect, and in sum the effect of the things one typically eats lead to a typical smell. Since nutrition is often culturally determined, different cultures smell differently. You just don't smell your own, because you get used to it.
I’m guessing this is what the OP had in mind.
Blurting this out must have been mortifying.
It’s a perfect vehicle for its message.
What's up with that? )
With English, you do "SHIFT + ;" for the colon and then "SHIFT+0" for the bracket. When I type it, I hold down SHIFT with my right pinkie, and hit ";" with my middle finger. I then outstretch my pointer to hit 0. It's mostly a single fluid motion.
With Russian, you have to engage two hands instead of one. We have more letters in our alphabet so the ";" key is occupied by "ж" (a "zh" sound as G in Gerome), and the colon gets moved to "SHIFT+5". So now, to make the colon you have to first find "5" on the keyboard with your left hand, while holding down SHIFT with your right. Then you have to disengage your left hand, and reach for the 0 with your right to make the bracket. Rather than do all that, you can just place ")" and the context is enough to understand it's a smile.
It could also just be tradition. My earliest memories of the Russian internet are from the late 1990s, and the convention of "))))" was already in place.
Even though my favourite professors at Waterloo in Canada were Russian, it wasn't until I learned some basic Russian that I finally got over the typical view of them drilled into people by Hollywood.
Your run of the mill Russian is honest about their feelings. Not honest about the facts, no, they can cheat on an insurance filing just fine. But that coldness that so many of them seem to have is often just an outer shell. Once one of them trusts you and gets to know you they're so warm and intense about their love for you. So excited to show you something dear to them. Even devoted enough to learn a new language just to speak to you, even if they're a senior[0]. It doesn't mean the relationship always survives, because that intensity is still there when they're angry, but the highs are so high.
I do not regret learning basic Russian.
[0] This happened to me. Twice.
> ... I think that — and this may answer your question — Russian friendships are much more emotional and intense than American friendships [...] When I moved back to [the USA] five and a half years ago, it was like this sense of whiplash because I had a lot of friends here, but I had been absent for 20 years. I would get together with my friends, and then two hours later, our get-together would be over. I’m like, “Well, what was the point of that? Was that just to let each other know that we still exist?” Because you don’t really get into deep conversation until about four hours in and a number of bottles of alcohol [...] I think that maybe that’s what you’re referring to. Maybe you’re just referring to the emotional intensity of Russian friendship, where it’s hard. It’s like lovers, even in this country, don’t really drift apart usually. You have to break up. You can’t just stop calling, and go from talking every day to talking every few weeks, and then forget about each other’s existence.
I usually take claims about what people from a country are like with a big grain of salt, but it's interesting to see this in your comment, too. Maybe I should pursue some Russian friendships.
[1] https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/masha-gessen/
I'm not a great fan of serious literature, but I've read a bit here and there and I think the above should be blindingly obvious to anyone who's read at least as little as I have (basically, Crime and Punishment, three or four pages from The Idiot and Gorsky's The Flaming heart of Danko). Or, anyone who's listened to the music (hello, Chaikovsky? Black Swan? You wanted feelsies?) or watched the movies (Tarkovsky) etc.
I think in the past the literature and the art in general would have been where Western people learned about Russians (and everyone else not in the West, also, but the Russians have a lot of literature). It's a bit of a shame if this has really been replaced by tinny stereotypes promulgated by Hollywood.
A doctor would walk in, having heard of all this already and ask "How are you?"
Sometimes she gave them the benefit of the doubt, and sometimes she was a bit less charitable.
My point? Americans (as she was), Russians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Japanese, Kurdish, Bolivians, Icelandians, Koreans, Germans, Chinese, Scottish, Irish, Australians, Austrians, Swiss, South Africans, Egyptians, Mixolydians, Bohemians, and even Canadians all agree one one thing:
Being asked "How are you?" is the LAST thing somebody wants to hear when they are suffering.
When I was a teenager I did a one year high school exchange to the US and for a long time I really struggled with the daily "what's up?". I was going through the above internal dialogue more than 10 times a day struggling to come up with an answer. Even, when I learned to just answer "yeah what's up" internally the dialogue would often still be triggered.
I hope any healthcare for your wife was eventually able to manage her pain and make her at least comfortable.
Sam Harris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajfkO_X0l0
Paul Hedderman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2T9e-uW1Dc
Similar when interacting with customer service. They don't want to know how you are, they want to know why you're talking with them, how they need to approach you. If you're calling about your cable bill and tell them you're not doing well because your aunt died, well, that's not actionable by them. They want to know how you're doing in the context of your cable bill. Even if your answer is "good, but I have a billing issue", it usefully sets the tone for the conversation in a way that "bad, Aunt Gerda passed away" does not.
I think this gets exactly to it, but I don’t agree with the rest of your comment.
In both the provided examples, the fact that there's a request for actionable information is already implicitly understood based on the situation. When a doctor comes into your room, you already know they're checking on your condition. The "How are you?" is just general greeting (to which, in casual situations, the proper response is "Fine, and you?").
And this is the crux of the misunderstanding. The Russian takes it as a request for information when it isn't.
*Edit*: A YouTube video pulled from another comment in this thread that explains what I was trying to say much better: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eGnH0KAXhCw&feature=youtu.be
This situation is a very common standup joke here in Russia since like the 70s or 80s when some of our movie or theater stars were in the US (or some other 'capitalistic' country) and were constantly asked 'how are you' in a hallway.
I am a German living in Germany and i once caused a car crash that made another car spin into the ditch on the side of the road. That car was driven by a family of Russian heritage.
After getting out of the car i spoke to the other parties wife first and I asked "Is everything OK?" with what i ment: "Is there something very wrong beyond the things that are obviously wrong. Like, is your child bleeding to death or is it only the car damage."
But the woman did not understand it this way at all and was a little bit furious because to her obviously nothing was OK.
Of course she had every reason to be upset, but the likelihood of a German interpreting my question in a rude way would have been way lower.
That said, doctors see a lot of misery, so anything to lighten the mood should be encouraged.
There is a saying in Russian: if a stranger, on your question "how are you?" (ru: как дела?), starts explaining in details what is happening with him/her - please know, you've met complete idiot.
So I am classifying that 'how are you?' as never ending test of my life position :)
OTOH I wouldn't call these "fake"; It's common, it's certainly different than how I socialized, possibly it's greatly misunderstood by many. Along the same train of thought, other languages' greetings would also be fake... After all, how could I genuinely wish a random German stranger a "Guten Morgen" or what do I care if "你吃了吗?" (lit. "have you already eaten?")
Let's rather be grateful for these questions not having to be genuine. Chances are high that when you ask someone today how they are (in their health) or if they ate (because there's no food shortage), then they can simply reply with a positive answer.
By being a nice person, just like how one would hold open a door for someone else? Though, that aside, when you say "Guten Morgen", you aren't wishing anything. It's just being polite while at the same time, you are saying something about yourself. For example, you could simply say "Morgen" which would mean you are in a hurry, or, depending on how you said it, that the morning isn't good at all. There are a lot of applications for "Guten Morgen". It all depends on how you say it and in which situation you do it. Anyway, it's not comparable to the questions in your posts as "Guten Morgen" can never be fake. Something like "Wie geht's?" (how are you?) would be more fitting, although it's rarely used as a greeting and more often than not, it would be meant seriously.
I was told by a Chinese colleague that this is a very informal greeting, strictly between friends - pals, rather.
I didn't ask, at the time, because I was more preoccupied with trying to pronounce it (my colleague was very helpful). But I would like to know the context behind this. I mean, what is it in asking about having eaten that signifies a greeting?
In Greek, for instance, we say "yia sou" ("γειά σου"), for "hello". It means, basically, "have health". To me (well of course it would) it makes sense to wish something good as a greeting, I think "shalom" for example, means "peace", etc. I don't get the "have you eaten" greeting and I'm very very curious. All help in this matter is deeply appreciated :)
I did hear at one point that an exchange of at least seven phrases back and forth constitutes a conversation and that lots of service workers can go a day without one which can lead to depression and such. No clue how true that is but I figure this kind of approach can’t hurt.
If you say “how you doing?” to a coworker in passing, yes it’s weird if they launch into a lengthy report about some malaise in their life, or how they are feeling about something sad they read in the news - that’s not what you were asking. But if they say “A bit stressed actually - our servers just went down!” then that’s not weird at all. So a quick “how are you” really means something like “(a) hi, and (b) no major problems?”.
Yeah, I wouldn't call it fake, just a different vocabulary, so to speak. You just need to mentally translate it into your cultural equivalent (smile = neutral face, “how are you?” = "hello", etc.)
It really annoys the hell out of me. What’s wrong with just saying what’s wrong?
The last example here on HN was a web version of flutter, where everyone was like “it’s amazing, so awesome, much controls” and only four comment levels deeper someone noted that it’s an utter crap that stutters at scroll on top hardware, cannot select text, cannot zoom, etc etc, so google reps had to start damage control.
And I wouldn’t even mind this positivity, if it didn’t put landmines in what you choose for daily use. Everything is so amazing and awesome, they love it, and when you try/buy it, it’s just a half-functioning crap that you have to finish yourself or wait until they do. As if these awesome’rs didn’t do anything beyond reading a tutorial. How can you relate positively to something that spent your days of learning and experimenting and in the end turned out to be a joke?
My native culture is quite straightforward in how things are phrased. As such, I find it easy to work with e.g. Germans, who routinely use phrases such as "this is unacceptable" in feedback. Which doesn't mean anything horrible, it just means that the specific thing being discussed is, in its current state, unacceptable for the final product. But Americans would likely phrase the same feedback as "needs some work". If American feedback includes "unacceptable" then you've probably really messed up.
The most difficult part is recognizing when Americans are genuinely impressed by something. Since regular positive feedback is full of "this is amazing" and "we love it" (thing that would just get a "this is good" at home), it's hard for me to recognize when something has really exceeded expectations and they really do love it.
In general, being frank online is hard but useful. We don't here the tone in written language, which often leads to tensions. Everybody, who really strives to do something well will struggle with the general incompetence of people to do anything well it seems, tons of half finished work and broken basically everything you think should be long explored fully. Just look at the world wide web and all the half broken and half implemented standards.
I have the feeling, that the Germans I interact with are verbally less expressive/ tend to use less intricate language constructs and subtle variations compared to the Czechs I know. That doesn't mean they are somehow less intelligent (because they definitely are not) or that they are less hearty (because again, they are quite the opposite). I do know some Americans that are genuinely very nice, caring people too and yes, they tend to use more of that positive vocabulary compared to the way we communicate in middle Europe.
In their minds, they probably are. Why can't the whole world have a singular word to address the second party, as in English, but require multiple levels of deference? I suspect the reasons are related: they're communication patterns that are hard to dispel. And as long as there's no need, people simply keep them up.
Now replay the same situation in another ("non-friendly") culture. Most of the "not-friendly" cultures would invite you to a free beer, asking what happened etc.
It sounds as though people in some countries interpret it as if the smiling person is on the inside of a joke and you're on the outside, or even the object of ridicule. As if the default is hostile intent. It sounds like a terrible thing to assume about your fellow stranger, to be honest.
Maybe the point is that if you start off assuming maximum hostility, the reality is more likely to be a pleasant surprise?
At any rate, we have common ground when it comes to those meaningless questions. They're hollow and they ruin the perfection of a nice wordless smile or simple "hi" or "hey". The absolute worst is when you pass a stranger and say "hi" and they respond to your back as they walk off into the distance, "hey, how ya doin?"
This doesn't mean the person asking is faking kindness - but also understand they're not actually asking for a rundown of how your life is going. Negative responses to the question are ok, just not deeply personal answers.
Tom Scott has an excellent video that addresses this very issue.
You might as well get mad at HTTP when you send a malformed request.
All cultures have context clues. Your surgeon might have just met you, but be legitimately concerned about your condition. Your best friend might be interested in your emotional state. The stranger on the street might merely be "polite", or hoping/wishing you are having a good day, but neither wanting to hear a full dissertation on your emotional state, nor a recitation of your medical history that a doctor might find relevant.
That said - it has to be noted that if you're interacting with "service workers" (any clerks at stores, hotels, restaurants, etc), there's a really horrible catch-22 ubiquitous in the corporate world. Those people are forced by corporate rules to be obsequiously friendly ... but are also so overworked that they generally have no time to actually help someone with anything that's not a direct job duty.
It really sucks because, traditionally, in the sense of i.e. a bartender/barista, that's actually supposed to be a large part of the "hospitality" job. They're supposed to be someone you can talk at length to, and traditionally have functioned like an entry-level therapist/counsellor in society. Unfortunately the fast-food mentality has trickled into a lot of institutions like that, and most of them are too busy fulfilling orders to do anything of the sort.
There's only one word 'y'all' need: 'cheers'.
I couldn't imagine working long for a place where every day seemed like solitary misery, especially remote during a pandemic, where rapport and ease of communication matters a lot. Didn't help that the quality of engineering work was absolutely abysmal (see friends hiring friends). Was contacting recruiters within a week.
I reckon there are a couple of ways we could define a 'genuine' smile. Most strictly, as a basically involuntary expression of emotion. More loosely, we could include voluntary smiles as long as they are a sincere signal of goodwill. I don't really want to be smiled at by people who hate me, but I think there's plenty to be said for cultural norms in favour of 'genuine' smiles under the looser definition.
Friendships are a bit stronger on the east coast.
At least from my perspective in California.
It's sort of like the smiling thing at a mega scale.
No need to go to West Coast for that. In the more affluent areas in Central NJ, people greet you on jogging trails, and sometimes even when passing you on ShopRite and Walmart ailes (these are grocery store chains).
> British Reserved, Not Unfriendly. You defeat enemy propaganda not by denying that these differences exist, but by admitting them openly and then trying to understand them. For instance : The British are often more reserved in conduct than we. On a small crowded island where forty-five million people live, each man learns to guard his privacy carefully-and is equally careful not to invade another man’s privacy.
> So if Britons sit in trains or busses without striking up conversation with you, it doesn’t mean they are being haughty and unfriendly. Probably they are paying more attention to you than you think. But they don’t speak to you because they don’t want to appear intrusive or rude.
https://flashbak.com/1942-extracts-from-gi-handbook-instruct...
I do agree with the GP that the American style has rubbed off on the British. Then again I'm Scottish and we've always been closer to the Irish in that regard.
Neither Swedes or the Nordic peoples see themselves as gloomy as others do, though, so in that sense they're a lot like Russians.
Does the person think it's the dumbest thing he's ever heard? Did the person not understand what I said? Does the person need more time to think about it? Does the person not realize I'm finished? What is expected of the speaker in this scenario? Do I just wait? Do I prod? Do I explain it again? Do I leave?
You are expected to either not care more than you did already, or ask any questions you have explicitly. If you feel anxious or confused, tell it. Nobody’s going to comfort you, unless you’re showing clear signs of breakdown, especially if you’re a guy.
All of this is true in negotiation, official situations, talking to strangers, etc. When you talk to a friend, they’ll be more chatty and supporting/feedbacky, but not as much as you probably expect.
That said, we have types whose nature is “silent partisan”, that will be hard for you to detect.
Edit: reading this thread, I really wonder why binutils do not reply kindly to your actions:
$ ls -1
Oh here’s your one column list please:
$ mv foo bar
Glad you asked, consider it done!
$ rm -rf /root
You know I see your point, but Permission denied.
$ vi
Hope you’ll enjoy exiting that!You can just ask if they understood you, agree or disagree. It’s not super common to act like you described, but common enough to be a cultural thing.
>Or is this not actually a Russian thing and just an anomaly?
I think it is a "Russian thing". One of them. They would not admit it though because they simply do not notice it or because they do not want to admit.
By the way another "Russian thing" is: Never admit the obvious truth even if it is clearly prestented to them with evidence or even when it does them no harm. It is hard sometimes to understand why they do that because you see no obvious reasons but if you dig deep enough you can find some fear or embarrasment behind it. Unfortunately they would not admit it too.
So maybe gp is expecting them to inter-act, ie make some reciprocal action of some kind back. Silence is an action, that in my culture usually means 'dont want to tell you my real response'.
I think I've read this a few times before and I can hardly agree.
While smile to laughter to fun association is strong and rather obvious I think the main reason you see russian smile less often is that genuine smile is the clear sign of good mood and relative well being and we tend to keep those things for our close friends, family and simply a good company we feel click with.
And we are too straightforward for a forced\fake smile. If a russian thinks 'go f*ck yourself' about you - it will be on their face. But most likely you will hear it out loud.
UPD:
I also believe we are less emotional in general. At least when it comes to things like movies, shows etc. I was amazed when I witnessed americans reacting to Game of Thrones...
In a society when every stranger can potentially be armed, it might be prudent to somehow display the 'I intend no harm' sign upfront, and smile might be a good proxy for that? The 'the armed society is a polite society' thing?
Living in Europe, where owning guns is not common (and carrying personally very very rare), I don't feel compelled to display or require upfront any bigger signs of 'friendliness' to/from strangers, other than 'Hello/Guten Abend/Adieu'. If the situation becomes unpleasant, I can always leave w/o physical consequences (excl. assault situations).
In a gun-loving culture, I'd probably put more effort to lower risk of misunderstandings.
Meanwhile parts of the Midwest that had a lot of Germanic immigrants are perceived as being "cold" compared to the southern states, and both tend to have high rates of gun ownership.
When I first moved to Southern California, I found the smiles quite off-putting. Living here for over a decade, I'm sure I do the same now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent_of_households_with_gun...
I've been also smilingly welcomed by Russian friends even though they may smile less on the average. I haven't been to Russia yes so I can't tell. Maybe they are just well assimilated here.
Maybe it only is all those fake smiles you get from the US service culture which is so over the top that everything else becomes nuanced.
Also, service people are not supposed to be fake smiling, we are actually expecting their emotional labor on top of the labor of their job. They are supposed to be cheering us up with their genuinely good attitude and "changing someone's day for the better" with their smile. It's all pretty exhausting.
I think otherwise though it you smile a lot for no reason people will think you are a little foolish or loony, but it isn’t dangerous.
I agree with the author that Americans and Russians have a surprising amount of similarities when you get past some surface level differences.
The latitude of Warsaw is 52.2° N, which is about the same latitude as northern Canada (Edmonton).
Moscow is 55.7, which is the same as southern Alaska.
Days are shorter, darker, and colder. It has an impact on your mood.
Plus, the average income for a Pole is $18,000/year, whereas for the average White American worker its $40,000/year. Cost of living is often lower in America than in Poland (excepting Seattle, NY etc.). So materially the average American is a lot better off.
And almost half the population there is Ukrainian or Polish descent, too, lots of people only a couple generations or less away from the old country. But people there are pretty mainline North American culture.
Now, my father is German... and I grew up with that rather curt and blunt and critical influence, so.
Is it?
If you write a conventional sentence with a period, sometimes people might think you're not alright or even annoyed. Appending `:)` afterwards might be considered a sad smile. We have expressive parentheses and emojis here, but you put that sad smile, what's happened? It's all fine, I just follow the punctuations.
I find it curious that even using emotions in the Internet can be different within a single culture, not to mention others.
(Yes, children, that’s how I got thrown off of Hacker News)
Anyway, this is going away as most of the younger generation just uses emoji instead.
Same as how back then you could say “in the war” and people knew you meant WWII, but nowaways youth may give you a confused look.
But yes at least in Canada we used to use the east/west framing, and in respect of russia. In 2002 they were the more prominent power compared to China. That situation has heavily reversed.
Also, the "winning side" is allowed the freedom to move forwards and forget the past quicker. As a Yankee we don't think much about the US civil war. The deeper a northerner goes into the south the more you are reminded that their side did not win the civil war, they remember that shit, and you better be careful what you say about it less you get run out of town.
[edit spelling; I had double checked myself but still fucked it up]
Yuri Gagarin
"He's fed up. He was glad to see Leonov land. Someone to talk to after an eternity alone! But Leonov tried to stuff his head full of Lenin. So when the American landed, the guy fled to his camp. But the American right away crammed a Coke down his throat, after making him say thank you first."
The USA was and is a warmongering socialist state. Capitalism certainly doesn't prescribe huge spendings and nationalisation.
Russia was and is a warmongering socialist state. The redeeming factor, and likely what makes "the communist" sounds reasonable, is that the Soviets defined themselves communist
When you think about anything it becomes weird and deserves smile. Having said that I think since everything is weird then you can say that almost nothing is weird. And the key is not to think about it too seriously.
If he's still in a lot of pain then the doctor would expect the patient to say that. "The nurses are treating me well, the food is fine, but I'm still in a lot of pain. Is there anything you can do about that?"
The doctor was asking a question relative to the situation and the Russian interpreted as an absolute question.
Even with my own kids. It can initially be difficult to judge how serious an injury a fall of bump is. 99% of time I’m right, but the missed stick with you and the kid.
A bit vulgar to use.
If you eat well, you'll grow healthy, if you eat poorly, you'll grow unhealthy. They stem from the same principles :-)
My understanding is that it's about extending, or at least putting on an air of, hospitality and friendliness.
With that said: Ukraine is a big country with a very strong culture that differs from Russian culture in (for us, foreigners) subtle ways. Near the border with Russia, however, Russian culture is stronger, hence some regions even associating themselves more strongly with Russia than with Ukraine (Krimea was one of those regions, by the way, which may explain to people who are unaware of this situation why there was no popular revolt - quite the contrary - against the Russian occupation).
That is a heavily debated question, both in Russia and Ukraine. It is possible to say the "russian" culture originated in (what is today) Ukraine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus
What we now call "Russia" was the expanding frontier of the original.
Rus (as statehood) originated in Novgorod (originally as a republic, btw). Then center was moved to Kiev. Then to Moscow. At those times there were no such entity (and ethnicity) as Ukraine at all.
Significantly later it was Cossacks republic on part of territory of modern Ukraine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaporozhian_Sich#/media/File:0... At that time it was no Ukrainian ethnicity too. Cossacks (armed settlers) were multiethnic by definition - members were ethnically Rus, Poland, Tatar, etc. from all close and far neighbors as this was area and society of refugees. That mix eventually transformed into separate ethnicity.
In Russian Empire Cossacks were playing role of armed border guard/settlers were spread across border regions of Russia: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Uk...
Ukraine as an ethnicity is relatively new entity. And needless to say that Ukraine as an entity with definitive borders was a communist invention, Lenin and later Stalin have drawn its borders - Russian Empire had no division on ethnical principles.
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Finland
This is the case in many other parts of Europe, too.
The totals looks similar but in practice the situation with weapons is extremely different. You have basically no chance to encounter an armed person in the street.
And when it comes to work criticism, I agree that there is some value in what would be considered "blunt feedback" by American standards, and that Americans are sometimes too hesitant to give it. At the same time, I think this also comes from a different cultural approach which is also valid. Americans have deeply rooted ideals for independence and self determination, and a general sense of optimism. I think the default position when someone is showing you a piece of work is often to assume that they have it under control, and that it would be presumptuous to tear down a piece of work someone else owns and that you are seeing for the first time. By focusing on praising the best elements of the work, you are giving your colleague feedback on what they should focus and expand on, and you are leaving it up to them to discover the flaws in their work and resolve them in their own way. So you would reserve direct criticism for times when you think there is a critical misunderstanding in the basic direction of the work which will prevent the correct result from being reached.
And you can cliticise the American approach all you want, and I will be the first to admit that it does lead to a lot of problems and blind-spots. But as someone who has worked in the US and in Germany, my experience is that American companies move and innovate a lot quicker than German ones by focusing on potential rather than flaws, and that trend seems to have been borne out if you look at the major innovations which have come out of each country in the last 30 years.
On the one hand, focusing on potential rather than flaws is exactly what feels like one of the things that could be better here. Also, as you say, there's nothing necessarily mendacious about a little bit of friendliness.
On the other hand, the thing that somewhat rubbed me the wrong way in the states wasn't ever the extraversion or friendliness / politeness in itself, but rather those situations where I felt like a particular positive (sometimes highly) emotional reaction was somehow socially expected in a professional context, and then watching people turn into actors to fill the role.
One example of this that I remember vividly was a session at a scientific conference, where a series of larger and smaller prizes were awarded. Some to just grad students, some to senior professors.
The laureates typically had to give a small speech. Everybody tried super hard to act and talk "honored", "humbled", "grateful". Most of them weren't great actors, and looked rather uncomfortable in the process. It was somewhat creepy to watch for me.
The part that was strange to me wasn't the fact that they were saying thanks (obviously), I guess that would be the same anywhere in the world, but rather how they all seemed to think it was necessary to play-act strong displays of emotions.
To me, that was the clearest example of this that I've seen so far, but in general it just seems like Americans have much less of a problem with professional social expectations creeping into the most private realm of your personality.
> deeply rooted ideals for independence and self determination, and a general sense of optimism.
But for every entrepreneur that makes it, I feel that hundreds walk around with false sense of optimism, pride in their mediocre work, dream naively outside their intellectual means, while it might be more advisable to be clipped of their wings, and to be grounded more in reality? Sorry I'm taking this discussion one level upwards to a more meta level, it's a tendency of mine.
In the end, who knows. I'm quite harsh dishing out criticism, and being able to take it I consider a virtue. I'd rather tell someone they're overweight than talk about positive body image. Or tell someone they should work on their presentation and speaking skills, rather than encourage them to give a speech they will fail at.
Probably best to take the best of both worlds and try to create something out of that.
There are companies around the world focusing on stuff that counts and rather less successful companies in that regard. There are businesses that seem to revolve only around corporate BS and not anything real.
There isn't much manufacturing of anything in the west, maybe a bit of assembly from components so I don't know if comparing countries is possible at all in this regard. For physical products, I would rather depend on German or Swiss stuff than made in the USA. Maybe I just haven't seen enough products to be able to compare, but in general I have a feeling there was more thought put into the products designed and made in Germany or Switzerland. The products seem to use materials and energy efficiently while being comfortable to use and robust. They aren't always so easy to repair it seems (the screws are more hidden), where in America more stuff is focused on efficient use of potential technicians time in case of a repair/ change it seems. The German culture has also a different approach to tidiness in every aspect of life. Germans are not comfortable, when there is any trash or leaves on the street. They will often comment or rather complain how the city is dirty and how there should be somebody taking care of it. This also concerns personal hygiene, workplace organization, (not) keeping on shoes at home, expecting drinkable tap water and more. I don't think I can explain it well in this discussion.
Multiple times, while on a train coming into the city from Portland, OR's airport, I've observed Portlanders strike up a grinning, friendly conversation with a New Yorker, noting their accent and inquiring as to what brings them to Portland -- and invariably the New Yorker has a pained look on their face like "why the fuck are you talking to me?"
(Though yes, by how they learn you notice what they get easily and what confuses them)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese-based_creole_langua...
I think many originated as trade languages, but I find it interesting that languages with such very different roots would mix and create a new language (a Creole, more so; not just a pidjin).
Well, it's usually the third or fourth rather than the second (second tends to be English or Spanish).
I was always quite surprised that there seems to never have been any online course teaching people who came over those basic things as they we online courses for everything else.
I found I made deep friendships more easily after speaking even a bit of Russian. If you can say "My name is X" and "awesome" and a couple other small phrases it helps. That said, it wasn't until I had put in around 1000 hours of practice until things really opened up. It's such a hard language and I'm below average in my ability to learn human languages. But I did make steady progress with Verbling and I even met up with my tutor when I was in Ukraine.
One of the things that learning Russian clears up is why they sound so angry to English ears. The language doesn't use tone for emphasis as much as English. It uses word order because the grammar is more flexible so they're able to put the important stuff at the end. Plus the sounds are more constant based. So once your ears get used to the language, you don't really hear Russian (or a Russian accented English) the same anymore. It sounds more human. Plus you learn so many words, you end up finding some of the endearing / superior to the English translation.
When learning Russian these are just a few of the words I found myself saying even when speaking English. Which gives a hint that a good direct translation maybe isn’t quite there.
Funny. To me (I'm Greek) Russians sound like they're always complaining about something. It's Germans that sound angry.
Edit: I wonder what Greek sounds like to foreign ears. The closes I've come to understanding it is hearing Spanish people talk, who sound a lot like Greek -that I don't understand.
That's what makes them sound similar to people who don't speak the language that much.
But the concept exists, it's just a different word.
I The Netherlands, work stops on Friday around 16:0-ish. In Germany, I had regular meetings at 18:00 on Friday. I honestly thought they were joking.
As another Nordic, I've seen people gladly leave the office around 15:00 or 16:00 (or earlier for some people if they like to start early) on a Friday, but it's hard to imagine people who are on the clock regularly leaving at 13:00 unless they are real early birds.
I have people tell me their bad news or downers pretty often when I greet them with “how are you?”, and my care or sympathy for the situation they’re in is not at all insincere.
I’m half German, and my grandfather always found it absurd to visit the US and have everyone saying “thank you” and “sorry” and smiling all the time. His opinion was that this behavior devalued the true meaning of a “thank you” or a smile.
Interestingly, Germans have now adopted two words for sorry, one being just “sorry” (spoken with a guttural “r”) and the other being “Entschuldigung“ — literally translates to something like “acceptance of blame.” The German “sorry” is much more common, and “Entschuldigung” is reserved for the true apologies, maybe analogous to “I apologize” in American English. Then it might be “ich entschuldige mich” or “I place the fault on myself.”
I mention this because it seems the “American” way of being more colloquially friendly is becoming more adopted in parts of Europe, especially by younger generations in areas like Germany and the Netherlands. Maybe this is just from exposure to American media.
Whatever the cause, I find this shift pleasant, as it saves me from having to code-switch between American friendliness and German staunchness when I talk with friends or family there (except for the older generations).
Instead, you're supposed to say 'Ich bitte um Entschuldigung' (I beg your forgiveness) - thus you're asking the person who was wronged for forgiveness. It should not be the choice of the wrongdoer to decide whether to be forgiven or not. Though to be fair, commonly it's used just as you described.
If I remember correctly, Kraus has at least once written about this specific phrase.
But in common parlance, I think the phrase "Ich entschuldige mich" is really meant more to say "I apologize" than anything else. I guess this could be a place where descriptivists and prescriptivists differ in their interpretations (and I lean a bit more towards being a descriptivist).
I haven't studied German society closely enough to know what people really mean with this phrase, but this is how I've always interpreted and used it, and other people seem to use it in this manner as well.
It’s not a criticism, just explanation of what other people feel. Now for a criticism (well lack of understanding really):
Americans are obsessed with being Happy. They’re always smiling, and when bad things happen, they’re sad, but at the same time they’re okay, it’s fine. But isn’t that a contradiction? They are lying. What’s even wrong with feeling bad (or just neutrally sad, inert, nostalgic) and not finding other’s happiness encouraging? Why are they even copying other’s emotions, when they should have their own? People have a spectrum emotions (more than 50 of them) for serious neurological reasons, and they feel every one of them, not only “good” and “fine”. Why are they denying everything except happiness and love, when it’s normal to feel all of the spectrum sometimes?
While I might really be enjoying a good walk in the sun for example, I can't really say that it makes me want to smile at every random passer-by.
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/education/
Nationally the US is near the OECD middle, and ahead of both Britain and New Zealand on education. Poland certainly scores well, not "miles ahead" well.
About 1/3 of Americans are getting a four year degree these days. The university systems in the US are vastly superior to anything Poland has. A third tier university in the US is as good as a first tier university in Poland. Forget about the second or first tier universities, Poland has nothing like a University of Virginia, Michigan or UCLA (all second tier), much less the elite schools. Which is why Poland isn't producing very much in the way of innovation or economic output. Poland's economy hasn't net expanded since 2008 (even before the pandemic), if their education system was so great it would show up in their economy.
Poland is also not miles ahead on healthcare at the median. The median American has full healthcare coverage and has faster access to healthcare than most socialized medicine nations, including Canada (where you'll wait months or years for procedures that Americans can get in weeks). We're talking about the median here, which is: an American earning $40,000 to $60,000 per year, with health insurance and richer than the median in either Germany or Sweden. The median American also has routine access to the latest medical technology, which the median Polish person has zero access to.
Miles ahead? Nope.
And if we're comparing fairly on demographics, the median white American demolishes the median white Pole, dramatically and across the board. The median white American is among the wealthiest medians on the planet (three times richer than the median Swede or German) and has an extreme income only comparable to nations like Switzerland and Norway. The US has taken on a dramatic amount of third-world immigration over the past ~45 years, which has persistently pushed against its median scoring as poor third world immigrants flood into the US (which debases the median as it happens). It takes a long time to lift the education and income levels for tens of millions of people coming from the third world with absolutely nothing and having to learn a new culture and language. That said, pretty soon the median Hispanic person in the US will be richer than the median German or Swede as well, so progress is occurring rapidly.
Poland has more average years in education, a higher high-school graduation rate, higher PSIA scores. More Poles get tertiary degrees, 44%, a full 10% higher than the USA. 7/10 of those degrees are masters level. And by the way, no one needs to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt for their degrees.
I have no idea where you got that talking point about no net economic expansion since 2008. Poland's inflation adjusted GDP is one of the fastest growing in Europe, all while its population is dropping due to low birthrates and net migration to the rest of Europe. Its life expectancy is one year lower than the USA, which is already one year lower than the OECD average, but at least you can't be bankrupted by your medical bills.
Rich Americans have it great. The best schools in the world, enormous houses, new cars, the best cutting edge medicine, and extremely high paying jobs that build products the whole world uses, and a government and social system that always works to maintain and magnify that advantage.
Things are nowhere near as rosy when you look at how the other half lives and they can't be just excluded from the comparison as "non-white".
I think that the bell curve works the same everywhere, and even most US schools (excepting the very top ones), don't have the opportunity to fill more than 20-30% of their student body with brilliant kids from abroad.
If you’re Finnish, I might say you don’t often smile but I bet you know how to neatly drift a rally car through a forest at considerable speed.
Why is some generalisation good? And others bad?
Finns generally demand a larger personal space and thus may appear as "cold" to someone used to being in closer proximity, but it is what it is.
Believe me, I'd love to be able to act less reserved around new people, but I find it hideously difficult, and if I don't feel outgoing, I can't force myself to act that way because it causes me intense discomfort.
As for smiling, it might just be that for Finns a "neutral" face is perfectly polite and a stranger's smile elicits a stronger reaction (either positive or negative depending on context) while people from the US might expect a smile as the default state and thus react less strongly to it.
I would say this is pretty common in the USA. Anyone smiling or laughing, especially in the customer service industry, can easily be interpreted that they are up to something. Makes customers uncomfortable. Obviously a generalized statement, but it seems most food and customer service industries despise their customers.
You wouldn't say "sorry" apologising for coming late to school/ work in Germany that would be too casual in such a situation.
1) You are putting it on me to tell you that I need something, right in the middle of my need. 2) If you're my real friend you don't need to say that, I already know I can call you 24/7/365 3) Your willingness to help is nulled by your lack of initiative.
The best thing anyone ever did was call me and say "I'm at Costco. What do you need? And don't say 'nothing'. I'm going to bring you something, and that's that." That whole pizza and frozen burritos were bad for me, but the last thing I needed on my mind at that time was cooking. And that's what true friends are there for.
So don't say "If you need anything let me know!" It's borderline passive aggressive.
@geocrasher seems to not realize that the people around he/she could be taking a cautious position to avoid getting into his/her business without it being requested.
I understand your point and i know it's a difficult question to deal with sometimes, especially during depression.
But remember that you're not those people's top priority. That sentence means you are allowed to ask them for stuff, but it doesn't mean they're going to drop everything and take you into their care right now without you taking a few steps on your own. They consider that you have enough of your own agency.
Your willingness to be helped is nulled by that same lack of initiative on your part.
A trick is to find something easy to ask for, as a go-to response to that. For example, the next time someone says that to you, you could answer:
"Actually, life has been tough lately, a beer would be nice".
What would have been better? To just say "I'm sorry you're having a hard time". If you don't mean something, don't say it.
I would like to be told by a friend that they care about me and would like to help in some way if they can. What I wouldn't like is if they said "OK, I'm going to choose a thing that I think I would want in your situation and do it for you, and you have no choice because I'm going to do it anyway." Chances are, what you thought was helpful is NOT what I need in a difficult moment and I don't want to be subjected to another person's choices being superimposed on my situation. Lucky for me I know that my friend feels the same way, and we have different ways of approaching these things with each other because of it.
"I'm at Costco. What do you need? And don't say 'nothing'. I'm going to bring you something, and that's that" seems incredibly aggressive to me, and if I had many friends who behaved that way I would be endlessly frustrated.
But it might be one way to start a conversation when you want to tell something you don't like. Like "How are you? I'll live. What happened? ...". But it's more of closed friends conversation when you can feel OK sharing your burdens with other person. I guess, similar thing could happen in US?
I did it last night with a cashier and she laughed and was, I think, amused by the novel response. It seemed to brighten her up a small amount. She then continued to make conversation by saying “Well let’s see if we can’t get you to better than normal.” That was slightly offputting and I wish she didn’t feel the need to take it there. I’m perfectly content with feeling “normal”.
I suppose the way I think of it is like dynamic range of expression. Normal is baseline and perfectly suitable. It’s where I like being. Great or bad are for special cases where I feel extraordinary.
-- What, "can't complain"? Really? You're in a Siberian prison camp, starving and freezing your toes and fingers off, and you "can't complain"?
-- Yes, when you're in a Siberian prison camp, you can't complain...
This is the same BTW in Hungarian. Even better, in HU we still have the form of "I wish (you) a good{Acc} morning", however a bit less formal way you can say just "a good{Acc} morning"
This simplification happened to German earlier too. In fact, my German old lady neighbor still to this day says every time: "Ich wünsche Ihnen einen guten Morgen / schönen Tag, Herr kmarc"
"How are you?"
"I'm well, and you?"
"Great, thanks."
It's just a ritualistic exchange.
How do you do?
To which the correct response is:
How do you do?
I was just always amazed how quiet the office was on Friday afternoons during the years when I went back to working in Norway. Great for me as I got lots done during those hours. Or perhaps not great as I did not have a cabin to travel to...
Anecdotally having a Friday beer o'clock in the office does not work in Norway. Partly as they frown upon drinking at work... and also there is no-one left in the office.
The statement "let me know if you need anything" has a different meaning depending on what it was reasonable to ask already.
It adds no information, due to the meaning of "anything" being entirely contextual.
If I know that they know that the relationship is fairly close, affirming it is a nice thing to do, especially if I'm feeling badly.
But if the relationship is not so close and/or I'm uncertain whether it's appropriate to ask a favor, I can imagine feeling antagonized by the form of an offer which is not really an offer or clarification of where we stand.
If there is ambiguity, there remains ambiguity, is how I see it.
That’s the purpose of the statement. The person you’re saying it to should have a vague idea of what is a reasonable ask depending on relationship, and if not, they will just get denied. But it is genuine.
If I’m at a store, and my coworker asks me to grab a pack of gum, I’ll do it. If they ask me to go to a store 15 min away for something, I’m going to say no, but they probably would not ask me that anyway. But if a close family member asks, I would go to the different store.
While it may seem like I am being oversensive about the subject, it is understandable because I left out a large part of the context. When you have heard of this phrase hundreds of times over multiple years by people who were not in the position to help you in the least bit, it becomes a meaningless platitude.
I don't personally say that sentence outside of a work context; usually I would say "call me if you need to talk", but I won't take proactive action unless I believe my friend either wants me to or need me to.
At the end of the day, someone makes a choice to interpret this as a platitude. How about taking up the person on their offer?
Unless the person saying it had access to some experimental treatment my doctors don't know about, there really was nothing they could have done to help me. I knew it and they knew it.
So while I didn't get angry at them (because I knew they said it because didn't know how to react differently), it did annoy me as it was basically an empty promise.
But there is a difference between empty platitudes such as "thoughts and prayers" and a genuine albeit abbreviated "I'm your friend and I love you, I don't know how I could help you, but if you know, don't hesitate to ask on account of it being too much."
I'm sorry about the situation you are/were in. That must have been very difficult.
It's like forgiveness, if you forgive someone, the main benefit is to you. By forgiving someone you take a load off your own shoulders. It's often meaningless to them if those forgiven know they are.
In that light, comparing the one-syllable English "Why?" to the three-syllable Russian "почему?" says something about the safety of asking questions in different countries.
"почему" asks - how did things come to be this way?
"зачем" asks - what is the purpose of things being this way?
Note the difference in implication if I ask you "why" you were late for work. "почему" allows room for circumstances beyond your control, while "зачем" places the blame squarely on your shoulders.
English speakers may be completely unconscious of the overloaded nature of "why" - such is the value of learning other languages.
English has at least three in the same space, two of which are in modern use.
> "почему" asks - how did things come to be this way?
In English, that's, unambiguously, “How". Which is kind of why your own translation starts with it.
> "зачем" asks - what is the purpose of things being this way?
In English that is, again unambiguously, though somewhat archaic, “wherefore”.
“Why” can mean either and is usually disambiguated by context (but is usually read modernly as “wherefore” if the context isn’t otherwise unambiguous, though the existence of the archaic phrase “whys and wherefores” which seems to mean the same as the modern “whys and hows” suggest to me that the bias has flipped over time.)
To be serious, Russian morphology restrict the number of short words. A verb or a noun will have a suffix that changes by plurality, case, gender, tense etc. and often a prefix. E.g. a pretty common word such as "come" in "Come to dinner with us" will have four syllables in 'заходите' because its root has a vowel, prefix has a vowel and suffix has two.
Question words are grammatically pronouns in Russian so they have all the morphological features of nouns.
(Disclaimer: I do not smile)
I’m really interested in linguistics, but I’ve never heard of such a rule. Could you give a source please? I’d be curious to know if this is true.
(A striking counterexample I ran into just yesterday: the Urim word for ‘head’ is tukŋunakŋ, and ‘we (incl.)’ is mentepm-. I don’t think this is because Urim people avoid talking about heads or groups of people. That being said, it’s tricky concluding anything from a sample size of n=1.)
"zachem" is closer to "what for".
