Ask HN: Are people only smart until they talk about things you know more about?

52 points by theyx 4 years ago | 68 comments

Hey, all.

Have you ever noticed people who you regarded as smart/intelligent, show themselves not to be that smart when they talk about something you know a lot about?

Say, you come to Hackernews/Reddit and usually see people on these sites as knowledgeable people. But when they talk about a topic you know very well, you realize they aren't that smart.

And, if this happens to the topics you know a lot about, what about the other topics you don't know much about? Are they wrong about those too?

So my question is: is there a name for this "effect", that you "lose trust" on someone you regarded as knowledgeable when they talked about something you know well?

WesolyKubeczek 4 years ago |

In my case, it just reaffirms the notion that being a smart fool is not really an oxymoron, and that people at large are fools, myself included.

We all sometimes have a tendency to talk about the things we know jack about while posing as experts because we read an article in the Guardian about it once, or an abstract from a paper. Some more than others.

In the world of show business and television, I’ve seen celebrities — singers, stand up comedians, those kinds of people — often being asked about their stance on complicated political issues or life advice as such — and they spoke bullshit with a mild air of authority instead of running away, which a sensible person should have done. The thing, though, is, that the fact they are celebrities means there are crowds of fans who will listen to whatever they say as if it was God’s own truth.

Hey, you can treat what I just wrote as uninformed bullshit, likely you even have reasons to, like data to contradict my statements. It’s ok. I’m likely a fool.

kbenson 4 years ago | |

> and they spoke bullshit with a mild air of authority instead of running away, which a sensible person should have done.

I think often they're asked because they've expressed interest in a topic or cause, and they realize that any benefit their name and the exposure they have at the moment is wasted if they ignore questions about it.

That they misstep is probably no different than any fledgling PR person the first day on the job, and sometimes I don't doubt it's media baiting them with questions to expose their lack of knowledge of some areas of the topic, as it makes for good coverage.

A lot of the times I give celebrities a lot of leeway in their knowledge, because most the time it's obvious that they just want to help because they feel fortunate for their current situation and want to give back. Sometimes that seems to be misapplied because of their lack of deep understanding on the topic, but at least their hearts seem to be in a good place.

WesolyKubeczek 4 years ago | | |

I’ve been thinking about those concrete examples I remember which have driven me to the conclusion I stand by now, and it was always more like “what’s your take on this thing that’s resonating in the news/happening where you live”, and they feel compelled to have an opinion and sound smart and deep on top.

It’s likely worse with celebrities who are generally smart and well-read on a wide range of subjects, who think that because they think they know a thing or two, that they should bestow their pearls of knowledge upon their audience.

The reality, though, is that they are in fact an illustration of the popular understanding of the Dunning-Kruger effect, because they don’t know how much they don’t know, sometimes even after a demonstration of the contrary.

I know about at least one such person who gave very thoughtful interviews on politics and blogged opinions and how he knew how to put things right, ran for a seat in the parliament twice, actually got elected both times, and failed miserably at his job both times, ending his mandate prematurely.

PaulKeeble 4 years ago | |

I see the same in the news a lot. When you are deep in an industry you see all the important errors they make reporting on what happened often missing the point entirely while making something else up. At any reasonable niche the amount of people who likely can have a quality opinion on something is really quite small and that includes alas the journalists who didn't grasp the details when they interviewed the experts.

We are all fools on many topics, most topics. One of my mentors in the past used to say there was no substitute for experience in an area. If you were joining a project and the members had a head start you should listen and learn because their experience was way ahead of your opinions on how it could be done.

hef19898 4 years ago | | |

I develop doubts when it comes to journalism, especially when it is presented from a point of authority and sold as truth. I don't with individuals, because all of us a prone to use expertise in field A to judge field B. Doing so constantly, and ignoring people knowing more than you is what makes you a fool.

theyx 4 years ago | | |

Should this affect our trust in news sources/online media (blogs, op-eds, articles)? If so, where do we draw the line between content worth reading and meaningless opinions?

yboris 4 years ago | |

> We all sometimes have a tendency to talk about the things we know jack about

Why not participate in the norm of stating the source of your claims. It's easy enough to start a sentence with "I read in the Guardian" or "If I remember correctly" or "I heard from a professor once".

It even helps just to share your credence in your claim, e.g. "I suspect this is true", or "I'm pretty sure this is how something works".

olalonde 4 years ago |

Not exactly what you are looking for but a related quote by Charles Bukowski: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence".

Often, on HN and Reddit, the most confident or authoritative sounding statements are also the most wrong. It always baffles me just how confident people can be in themselves when they really have no good basis for that confidence.

I think part of the problem is that we collectively tend to reward the "confident sounding" comments because we wrongly assume that only an actually knowledgeable person would have authored them.

LordNight 4 years ago | |

Isn't it a paraphrase of Bertrand Russell?

"The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt" — from The Triumph of Stupidity, 1933.

theyx 4 years ago | |

You are right. We run the risk of building a society (or at least an online environment) built upon the confidence/mistakes of the loud fools.

theodric 4 years ago |

Every time I see news coverage of technical areas in which I have expertise, and they get something glaringly wrong, I wonder for a moment how much other stuff they're getting wrong when I don't notice because it's outside of my specialization. Frankly terrifying, since the news shapes opinions for most people.

xenonite 4 years ago | |

Indeed. In my experience, the bad feeling gets even worse when noticing something wrong in something you are not specialised at all.

However to your point, Michael Crichton describes the rather sad "Gell-Mann amnesia effect": One tends to still trust the other pages of the magazine.

cpach 4 years ago | | |

Hopefully people don’t use TV news or newspapers as their only sources of information. Newspapers are good for getting a feeling for what’s currently going around in the world – but one also need to complement them with other publications. E.g. books, meta-studies, etc.

Let’s take an example: If I want to know what’s going on in Yemen this week, I’m probably better of reading The Economist than borrowing a book at the library. But if I want to get a deeper understanding on the situation in Yemen, I’m probably better off reading a book rather than a news article.

gtirloni 4 years ago |

I don't think being smart has anything to do with this. You may want to replace "smart" with "knowledgeable about a topic I'm interested in".

bovermyer 4 years ago | |

Yeah, there is a very big difference between having a strong grasp of a particular domain of knowledge and being generally intelligent: that is, able to reason and make logical inferences in the absence of knowledge.

devoutsalsa 4 years ago |

“ An expert is somebody who is more than 50 miles from home, has no responsibility for implementing the advice he gives, and shows slides.” -Edwin Meese

pessimizer 4 years ago |

I think the "effect" is simple statistics. If you know more about a subject than most people, fewer people will impress you with their knowledge when talking about that subject - this is fairly definitional (with a little dithering about "most" and means and medians.) Additionally, someone who is very good in a lot of subjects could be expected to be worse in a lot of other, unrelated subjects (assuming a limited budget of study and attention.)

I think this is only shocking to people who believe in a general g that simultaneously makes people smart in everything. There isn't a person alive that doesn't know enough facts that I don't know to take the rest of my life to enumerate, even if it has to get down to the level of knowing that their grandmother likes raisins in their oatmeal.

The closest we have to g is reason, and people whose reason is rigorous have rigorous reason everywhere that they aren't being willfully ignorant (like declaring that normal reasoning doesn't apply when it comes to X.) I'm not ever disappointed in the intelligence of people I know with good reasoning skills, unless you count groaning when I realize how long it's going to take to get them to speed on something I have a lot of knowledge about.

lmilcin 4 years ago |

I think you misunderstand what "smart" means. More likely what you think by "smart" is actually "smart, knowledgeable and wise".

Smart is only capacity for noticing and understanding new things. It does not mean the person has presently a lot of understanding of things (knowledge) or that it has good judgment to not say untrue things in area they have no idea about (wisdom).

A person that is smart but has little knowledge will not be able to keep up in discussion with you in your area of expertise even if they are actually more intelligent than you.

Give them some time and see if they can pick up things fast or are slow to understand new concepts. This is better way to judge if somebody is or is not smart.

Imagine following situation: you are talking about something you know a lot about with a person that has no knowledge in your field of expertise.

That person decides to learn your field.

Let's say, in 2 years they know more in your field than you will ever know and they even are able to get a lot of original insight that leads to some astounding accomplishments.

Ask yourself, was that person "not smart" when you first talked to him/her? Or maybe they were always smart but they still needed to invest at least some time and effort to learn the field?

jeffreyrogers 4 years ago |

The smartest people I know are generally smart no matter what field you put them in. But everyone has blind spots/biases.

I do know a couple of very successful people who aren't that smart but are good at selling themselves/their ideas. Some people look down on this, but it is a good skill to have.

HN has a problem where the people who comment are often not that knowledgable but can sound like they know what they're talking about. This is particularly bad in posts asking for advice. Allowing downvoting (HN didn't always have it IIRC) actually makes this problem worse. Also for some emotionally charged topics people will downvote true things that make them feel bad.

theyx 4 years ago | |

You are right about HN folks. I asked this question prompted by a topic discussed here during the past week, in which many people were commenting and sounding like experts. But because I knew deeply about it (having written my Master’s thesis on it), I noticed how mistaken they were — despite making their opinions sound like facts.

It makes me wonder: should this make us disregard many more discussions? Because what if the comments on those are as “untrustworthy” as the comments shown in that thread I know about?

WelcomeShorty 4 years ago | | |

The desired way would be that you correct them as domain expert and give us all a change to learn.

Did you?

jsbbf 4 years ago |

Bounded Rationality. We have 6 inch chimp brains and the universe that needs to fit in it is slightly larger.

Wowfunhappy 4 years ago |

I think it's important to differentiate between "smart" and "knowledgable".

I have a new coworker who isn't very knowledgable, but she's able to understand new topics quickly, once I've explained them. She's often nervous about her lack of knowledge—rightly so, in all honesty—but I also think she's exceptionally smart. Certainly more than she realizes.

dschuessler 4 years ago |

The Gell-Mann-Amnesia effect probably comes the closest to what you are looking for. It doesn't refer to the loss of trust but rather to the effect that we tend to forget that a source is not trustworthy. In the words of Michael Crichton:

> “Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#Speeches)

bradlys 4 years ago |

I assume for most people what you said is how it works.

I change it up by assuming everyone is a dumbass but just informed on their one subject matter. Rare to meet people who are good at multiple things or, more importantly, good at learning multiple things. Usually I take smarts as being your ability to learn - not your amount of deep knowledge on one subject.

Fortunately, it’s easier than ever to be smart. We have an amazing assortment of great teachers online that do it all for free in a variety of formats that are accessible. Sadly, feels like relatively few people access the information.

AlbertCory 4 years ago |

Back in the 80s, a private pilot made the news by landing his plane on 280 (there was less traffic then, and it wasn't rush hour). His plane's engine had thrown a rod and he couldn't make it back to Palo Alto Airport. No one was hurt.

Coincidentally, I met him later and he talked about his experience with the journalists. He was wise to their laziness, and he made them all read their notes back so he could be sure they got it right.

I think in principle the reporters know they should be careful what they write, but in practice... deadlines, you know.

JohnFen 4 years ago |

There's a big difference between being smart and being knowledgeable. Smart is the ability to process information and make deductions. Knowledge is information itself.

Or, to put it the other way, stupidity and ignorance are two separate things. All of us are ignorant of more things than we're knowledgeable about -- even the geniuses among us.

Get a really smart person to talk about something that they have little special knowledge about, and they aren't going to seem any smarter about it than most other people.

cirgue 4 years ago |

> Say, you come to Hackernews/Reddit and usually see people on these sites as knowledgeable people.

This may be part of the rub: there are a bunch of bullshitters on the internet.

drewcoo 4 years ago | |

I don't think it's a problem we can blame on technology.

Jensson 4 years ago |

Smart compared to what? Smart compared to how you'd perceive someone talking about a field you know nothing about? Yes, that perception is just an illusion, nobody is that smart. Just because people aren't those infallible bastions of perfect knowledge doesn't mean that they aren't smart, it just means that you now realized that they are just humans and are often wrong about things.

notRobot 4 years ago |

What you're talking about is very closely related to the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect.

Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.

https://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/

Thristle 4 years ago |

1. Confidence can take you far

2. People usually have a lot of shallow knowledge on many things but deep knowledge on very few (if at all)

3. Many things are complicated enough that shallow knowledge==wrong knowledge from an expect point of view (the same way high school physics usually don't have friction, you sacrifice correctness for simplicity)

mouzogu 4 years ago |

I always saw intelligence as a willingness to acknowledge what you don't know and withdrawing from comment or discussion about things you don't understand well enough to have an informed opinion on.

Unfortunately, this kind of humility/modesty is not rewarded. As we see in the world around us.

exporectomy 4 years ago | |

I think you're using the word "intelligence" to mean "respectable" or something else that isn't intelligence at all. Perhaps similar to how people use "stupid" to mean something that hurts them - "The stupid fly won't let me kill it!".

notjustanymike 4 years ago |

Genuinely smart people are the ones who ask lots of questions when talking about an unfamiliar topic.

jatins 4 years ago |

I feel humans in general tend to highly regard the words of highly successful (or rich) people. Which in turn convinces successful/rich people that they are smart.

You could see that happening on Twitter during covid. VCs, who specialise in tech, were suddenly experts on medicine as well. Because the feedback loop has convinced them they are smart so it's hard for them to not buy into that.

And just to be clear these people are wicked smart a lot of times. Just that expertise in one area doesn't often translate to all others.

nokya 4 years ago |

I'm exactly one of these people you're referring to. For some reason people around me tend to thing I am much smarter than I am.

It's not modesty of sorts, I am often involved in life or work situations where everyone around me seems to have understood something highly relevant to the situation, but me.

And the few times I mention it, people laugh.

"Hu hu, good one!" "Yup..."

poorjohnmacafee 4 years ago |

Our modern economy pushes people to appear as "experts" for the purpose of their career, personal brand, and earnings. If someone poses as smart/an expert/well-crafted or well-filtered it's because they are playing the career game, or they look at others playing the career game around them and guess that they are supposed to act like that. Real intelligence is playful, open, curious and comes across as ridiculous most of the time.

hprotagonist 4 years ago |

Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray [Gell-Mann]’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.

In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.

lobocinza 4 years ago |

That depends on what you define as smart. I see that someone being intelligent goes beyond knowledge and rhetoric. So, I tend to believe that you can only 'truly' judge how smart someone is by being together involved in a topic that you two are not experts on. And this goes beyond pure logical reason, but also how it can connect things to reality and generate useful insights.

nonameiguess 4 years ago |

Depends on what you mean by "smart." High intellect in the sense of a brain that learns new ideas and recognizes patterns well isn't the same thing as knowledge, experience, wisdom, whatever. It is easy for someone with raw brain talent to become good at rhetoric and convincingly arguing for something. This includes to themselves. In arenas where their own knowledge is incomplete or there simply isn't knowledge at all because there is more uncertainty than human brains are comfortable dealing with, this often has the effect that they can very convincingly wrong, or just convinced they're correct even if the claim they're making can't be known to be true or not.

To be clear, I think I'm as guilty of this as anyone. It is very hard to recognize the limits of your own knowledge. It isn't really a matter of being "smart" as I see it. It's a matter of discipline and intellectual humility. You need to very intentionally practice checking yourself, being less certain on purpose, seeking to find knowledge rather than spread it, and even knowing all of that, I still find it very hard to do.

I don't think this is exactly the same thing as Gellman Amnesia, either. I'm not even sure Crichton was really correct about that kind of thing or at least not saying what people seem to be taking away from it. It can easily be the case that a person or publication you're trusting to be correct about something in one arena of knowledge really is correct there, but still doesn't know much about something you're an expert in. I think it probably is fair to apply this to reporters, because no disrespect intended, but they're not experts in anything except reporting, not even whatever specific beat they're assigned to. They're relying on the expertise of others to be correct but they may not be all that qualified to really evaluate the claims they're furthering. But it's equally bad to universally trusting everything you read in a newspaper to just assume they're wrong about everything because they were ever wrong about one thing you happen to know a lot about. That may be the case, but you shouldn't just assume that. This gets back to probabilistic thinking. You should understand that the probability of a claim you're reading somewhere being correct is rarely if ever 0 or 1, and your updates on the trustworthiness of a source when they prove to be correct or incorrect one time should not only be multiply by infinity or multiply by 0. You have to learn to live with uncertainty.

cauliflower99 4 years ago |

An expert in one area can be a novice in another area, even if they love demonstrating how little they know.

Case and point: Richard Dawkins is a genius in biology but a novice in philosophy. However, that doesn't stop him writing a best selling book which is disregarded as comical by atheist philosophers.

dcanelhas 4 years ago |

As someone already noted; there is a a cognitive bias called The Halo effect, which might explain the initial belief that a person you considered knowledgeable in one area must be an expert in all areas. Possibly what you are describing is a sense of disillusionment upon realizing that this is not the case?

beardyw 4 years ago |

If you think something is probably true, or close enough, and you present it as a fact you might be seen as an expert.

If you qualify it, such as "as I understand it ...", you will not.

I think the latter is seen in our age as a sign of weakness, since you are not expected to have a sense of shame if you are proved wrong. Sadly.

nojito 4 years ago |

Smart people are the one's who know their circle of competence.

https://fs.blog/2013/12/circle-of-competence/

princevegeta89 4 years ago |

I generally found that smart people keep calm and it is discovered slowly, with more and more interaction. People who showed off and bragged a lot were generally found to be shallow in my experience

true_religion 4 years ago |

No quite the reverse. The people I work with and befriend are always very good in what I specialize in.

It’s when it comes to other topics that we wildly diverge in conclusions.

jasfi 4 years ago |

That's being informed. Smart is being able to learn new things quickly, make the right conclusions and other things independent of any specific domain.

garrisonj 4 years ago |

Listening to people talk about things I know a lot about teaches me to be quite about things I’m not an expert it.

xx511134bz 4 years ago |

High verbal IQ individuals with shallow understanding will still sound smart, except to a specialist.

mszcz 4 years ago |

You should look up Gell-Mann amnesia. The basic premise IIRC is that the media's credibility is undeserved. You go through a newspaper reading about this and that, nodding along. When you happen upon an article in a field you know a lot about you realise how clueless the reporters writing the article are. You turn the page, get to the next article and forget all about reporters's cluelessness or the fact that it might extend to other fields you do not know that much about.

AlbertCory 4 years ago | |

I was going to ask if anyone remembered the name of this, but you gave it to us. Thanks.

klyrs 4 years ago |

Get off your high horse. Smart people suffer Dunning-Kreuger too. I've delved quite deep into a specialty, to the point that anybody capable of even understanding what I'm talking about will have some intuition about what should work. They're usually very wrong. Does that make them stupid? No. Their ideas are simply lines of thought that I've plumbed deeply in years' past. There are highly non-obvious reasons that the idea doesn't work out. But, sometimes I get surprised by a good idea from left field.

The above doesn't stop me from making guesses about other fields. Does that make me an idiot? No. I do try to be upfront about my naivety, but, I suffer Dunning-Kruger like everybody else, and sometimes I grossly overestimate my confidence. It happens. And that's how we learn.

If you want to talk to somebody smart, look for their expertise. If you want to feel smarter than everybody, only pay attention to your expertise, but remember, you're "not smart" too.

The funny thing about "Gell-Mann Amnesia" is that people make a career out of doing their best to understand 10 years of research in 10 hours, and repackage that for people to understand in 10 minutes. Recalibrate your expectations.

archsurface 4 years ago |

Halo effect, reverse halo effect.

jjcc 4 years ago |

Yes it's quite common. In general there's a term called intelligent idiot. I learn that from Nassim Taleb. My understanding is there are a lot of people look smarter than they are. I noticed a lot of the phenomenon since then.

My theory is there are some fundamental cognition defects in our sapiens' brain which was evolved from "small data" environment (compare to today's bid data environment) so the biochemical reactions inside our brain on the conclusions from Bayesian model are not much different from the reactions to the conclusions from witness. That results in many people don't differentiate beliefs(very strong but have never seen the truth) from "solid facts" which is equivalent to the topics that you know very well.

The most common places to observe intelligent idiot are the areas related to ideologies. For example there are tons of politicians showing very strong intelligent signals: articulate and organize their thoughts very well, with solid logical reasoning, while actually talking bullshit which only can be noticed by the people knowing the ground truth.

In technology areas there are less but still some. People are easily confused with strong intelligence signals with the real intelligence.

It's not black and white. Some time real smart people also make the same mistake. Give a couple of examples: Sam Harris, Bret Weinstein , I consider both very smart, rational, evidence based,scientific thinking guys according to the depth of their thinking. However I noticed they have some serious mistakes on their judgements about some matters that they don't know the ground truth. I still highly respect their intelligence but not the same as before. They are not intelligent idiots but just made small mistakes. Meanwhile I think I might have the same problems that I don't know since they are smarter than me and still make mistakes.

Here in HN with a high density of smart people, there are tons of chances to observe intelligent idiots. Just check those non-technology related hot topics.

terryk88a 4 years ago |

Commenters have mentioned both Dunning-Kruger and Gell-Mann Amnesia.

Gell-Mann Amnesia is rather strictly defined by its creator in the journalism domain, but perhaps it could be stretched to include the commentary here at Hacker News.

Still, I think that tagging your answer as "amnesia" does not work - unless you, yourself, manage to forget to be skeptical... on topics where you are not expert and commenters are still show-casing Dunning-Kruger.

And it's hilarious how many of them there are here!

tpoacher 4 years ago |

If you believe the phenomenon of Gell-Mann amnesia then the answer is no: people are only smart when they talk about things you know more about; not just until.

jimmyvalmer 4 years ago |

Gell-Mann Amnesia

Jugurtha 4 years ago |

"Gell-Mann amnesia effet".

GDC7 4 years ago |

> But when they talk about a topic you know very well, you realize they aren't that smart.

In the historical academic and intellectual epicenter of the US (East Coast college towns), the rule about not talking about a subject in which you are not an expert is still somewhat followed.

It is completely shattered in SV and coastal cities + DC

Case in point:

"Zero cases by the end of April, bruh...you gotta stop panicking bruh!" [0] AKA, the reason why Boston can't stand Elon Musk.

[0] https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960?lang...

theyx 4 years ago | |

Interesting distinction between east and west coast! Could it be because academic fields are less influenced by “looks and impressions”, while SV/technology fields are easily manipulated by people who appear to be experts?

As in: in academia if you say something, people are trained to analyze the veracity of that, and to judge you based on your methodological/academic rigor. Meanwhile, in SV people judge you on past projects and financial conditions, which are not tied to knowledge about reality at all. I don’t know if any of what I am saying is factually correct, I’m just guessing and wondering. Don’t take it as fact, just my biased, un-founded opinion created around what I see online.

GDC7 4 years ago | | |

I think it's because those who have knowledge of financial and human capital are the ones who make the final sprint of the marathon of problem solving.

When the science is knocking on heavens door after years or decades of struggles they feel the opportunity of commercial success and come out of the woodwork to make the last effort to finally push the pile over the goal line by making adjustments in how human capital and financial capital are deployed.