The state of external retina displays(caseyliss.com) |
The state of external retina displays(caseyliss.com) |
Is there something wrong with me that I don't see a massive improvement between that PPI and the MBP one? To the point where I'd lose my mind about it and demand 5K there?
Retina is 326 PPI+ on iPhones. It’s 220 PPI+ on MacBooks. I have to say that my 170 PPI or so is plenty on my 4k 28” desktop monitors. Though I would be very very happy to upgrade to 120hz (without turning my laptop into a jet engine) and maybe 5k as well for perfect 2:1 1440p scaling.
In May 2021 I did my workstation build. I just bought new value 1440p panels while I sit here with my arms crossed, wondering when the 5K displays which'll meet my requirements will exist.
The fact that the pro xdr only has one port makes it a non starter for me. I need to connect more than one device to my monitors.
An 8k display would be 40 inches.
h = 32, 218 = p / x, c = 16/9 y, x = h cos(t), y = h sin(t), h^2 = x^2 + y^2, 90 = t + s, x > 0, y > 0, h > 0
Resolution is not quite retina but good enough. Sound quality is not as good as iMacs on built in speakers. It has no web cam but not sure I care.
I used to be content with windows and low resolution monitors. I think the eyes just adjust and make up for anything that is lost. I am not even sure resolution even matters. 4K video would be nice, but very little content is in 4k.
https://www.designcompaniesranked.com/resources/is-this-reti...
According to it's methodology which seems reasonable a 4k display is "retina" at 26" at a typical 20" viewing distance. A 27" at 21.
I think a 27" is so near as good as to be indistinguishable despite being a reasonable upgrade in screen area.
I have something very similar to this.
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16824025891
I'd easily put it in the position of the bargain choice.
I use them with an Intel Mac mini and unfortunately the power management doesn’t work. Sometimes on computer boot, the monitors just don’t come on, and sleep is problematic too. Sometimes unplugging and replugging the video cable works, sometimes no. Sometimes the only fix is another reboot, which seems to reset something.
I’ve found that Thunderbolt to Displayport cables work best, and I disabled all monitor power management both in the Mac and the monitors. Still sporadic issues though. Don’t know whether to blame the monitors or the Mac.
Other than that, no complaints.
In what planet is it "absurd"? Because the calibrated monitors it competes with (from Sony, etc) cost around $10K to $20K.
My constraints were proper 4k (no compromised height resolution) -- the 4:3 ratio is nice but I was happy with most ratios. Overall at 43 inches it's big probably more suited for console gaming than PC but the 165Hz refresh rate makes it suitable for gaming.
I don’t run them at native res, but this never bothered me. I also don’t game or edit photos or video either.
It is a full 27" OLED panel for $$$ ($3,000), but it is not the highest DPI at only 4K resolution
In 2017 I was able to pick up a deal on the Anandtech or [H] forums, 2016 15" MacBook Pro and the original LG 4K USB-C display for $1600!
I still have the screen to this day. It is still amazing. I never ended up buying a 27" 5K display.
I can, however, see clear artifacts on the two 100-dpi ish screens. A 150-dpi screen would work perfectly for me.
My dream monitor would be a dual-5k super-ultrawide, even at 60Hz. That's at least 5 years away if not 10.
Biggest downside (aside from the price) is extending the Apple lock-in.
As mentioned elsewhere, it and my mac are sensitive to the cable, so it's worth trying a couple if they give problems. (More apple idiocy: what if we put the same connector everywhere, but made devices super sensitive to some qualities of the cables, connectors, or who knows what -- there's definitely no way this will be super confusing for users!)
I used to buy an iMac 27 so I could have a great first screen. I’d like to go back or have an apple monitor again.
The initial batch would get disrupted if a WiFi antenna (like the kind in an ordinary laptop) was too close. There was a recall to replace the shielding.
Sporadic dumping of devices connected to the internal USB-C hub (mine did this all the time when I had 2.5” HDs connected; got better when I switched to SSDs; mostly disappeared when I switched to an M1 Mac).
Ghosting (I currently have this problem bigly).
The pins in the powered USB-C socket that are responsible for data are poorly soldered. Over the years and wear, this can result in displays that can power laptops but not necessarily show a picture.
The whole product line is a big fat lemon.
I bring my laptop in each morning and after I plug it into the monitor I have issues.
Often the monitor is not correctly identifying the MacBook and so it doesn’t correctly turn on even though my MacBook responds by moving everything across two screens. It can lead to 5-10 minutes of plugging and unplugging and switching the monitor on and off.
Not an experience anyone wants.
Having monitors further away from the eyes may also help to prevent eye strain from focusing too close for too long.
At the high-end: 6K or 8K 120Hz 1000 nit, 12-bit HDR in various sizes from 27" up to 40" where this kind of resolution makes sense.
At the "enthusiast" or "gamer" tier: 4K 240Hz with 10-bit HDR, either 1000 nit LCD or 600 nit OLED. (From 2022, RGB OLED with 1000 nit brightness)
In both cases wide-gamut colour (Display P3 or wider) should be available and "just work". Ideally much wider, near Rec.2020. I still use a 8 year old(!) monitor with 100% AdobeRGB coverage. For some bizarre reason, this is a "high bar" that 99% of currently sold PC monitors don't reach, despite quantum dot filters being a thing since 2013(!!).
This isn't wishful thinking, this is all existing, off-the-shelf technology widely available elsewhere in the general consumer market -- just not for PCs.
So for example, my iPhone has a wide-gamut, 1000 nit HDR OLED screen with 120 Hz.
LG sells an 8K OLED with 120 Hz, and 240 Hz 4K televisions are commonplace. Most TVs have 1000+ nit HDR, and OLEDs will reach about 1000 nits in 2022.
Most of the above is simply unavailable in the PC display world, or is only available "piecemeal". I just got a laptop with an OLED 4K HDR display, but it is limited 60Hz. This isn't an input cable limitation, it's a built-in display with a 5cm long cable!
There are exactly zero 120 Hz PC OLED monitors available on the market under 40" (i.e.: not a re-purposed television). None.
Back to my laptop: HDR "works" in the checkbox tick sense. The panel is physically very good, but even on Windows 11 with the absolute latest drivers it's hit & miss:
- Windows is not colour managed by default. Still. In nearly-2022 era. Apps randomly look correct or have visibly "stretched" gamuts. Most things are limited to sRGB, and can't use the display native gamut, despite wide-gamut support for the UI being available as far back as Vista.
- HDR content is randomly correct by accident (YouTube), overbright and clipped horribly (also YouTube for some reason), or way too dark (NetFlix).
- Dolby Vision doesn't work at all. The "Dolby Access" app is abandonware that does nothing. (Again, both my TV and my phone can play DV content!)
- Games don't work in HDR at all on the internal OLED display, but do work with an external TV plugged in. So the GPU is capable of it, it just refuses to work!
- The panel is 10-bit capable, but only if HDR is turned on.
- With HDR on the screen stays black when the laptop resumes from sleep, making this a no-go for general use. This is a known issue that has persisted through at least three semi-annual releases of Windows, with a WONTFIX response from Microsoft!
This is where were are on the eve of 2022: A super-high-end Windows computer screws up the colours for apps, can't reliably play HDR, refuses to for games, and dies if HDR is used before it goes to sleep. It doesn't matter anyway because HDR displays are rarer than hen's teeth and won't be available until 2023 at the earliest, some time after TV manufacturers will stop making LCDs entirely and switch 100% of their production over to OLEDs.
Don't worry, the old LCD lines will be used to make faded, sub-sRGB displays for us poors.
That said, it makes a very good external monitor for mobile use.
Unfortunately the OSes I want to use don't do fractional scaling well - macOS or Linux, but Linux can work here, it's getting better. Windows does fractional scaling well in theory, but I find it works poorly in practice as app support for it is really patchy.
I'll admit, a monitor that costs more than my first car is beyond affordable for 99% of the population.
But saying that, many of the people reading this are pulling truly exotic salaries right now. After devoting untold hours to reaching the top of their profession.
Let's say you're a professional earning $300k plus in software.
You're often working 100% remote, using your monitor 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, just for work. Plus untold hours of HackerNews (strictly after 5pm of course).
I just find that's truly not an unlikely situation to be in.
Without reference to the technical merits of the Apple Display, I don't think dropping $5000 on a monitor is outlandish for any professional in the situation I've described.
My hairdresser for example has a $4000 pair of scissors. He uses the damn things every day, and he sharpens them twice a day.
Whilst it's not essential, taking pride and investing in the tools of your trade is not a thing to frown upon.
Scissors or a hand plane are decent "heirloom" items. Potentially you can retire with the same one you started with, or pass them down.
Electric drills start to lean toward consumable. Battery tech changes over the years and they do wear out in non-fixable ways.
Screen and computer tech advances so fast that 5 years is a "good" lifespan, and 10 years is exceptional.
So a 4k investment in scissors is a lifetime investment, while a 5k screen may be more like "1k / year for good monitor as a service" (plus 2k off your next refresh).
I think it can still make sense, but very often when people buy the premium in computers or displays they are getting the same thing everyone else gets 30-50% cheaper 1 year later.
> I think it can still make sense, but very often when people buy the premium in computers or displays they are getting the same thing everyone else gets 30-50% cheaper 1 year later.
I'd normally agree, but the article's point is that this isn't happening with displays - we're stuck at 4K as the best available except for a handful of displays that are still expensive even years after introduction.
I bought my LG Ultrafine 5K in 2018, and it launched in 2016. There's still no real alternative - we seem to be in a monitor progress limbo.
Or another example: 8 years ago I spent $320 on a 1080p 27" (massive pixels) monitor with horrible color reproduction and contrast. 4 years ago I upgraded to a new monitor and for $300 I was able to get 4k 27" with >100% sRGB.
And when you consider inflation, progress is even greater.
It's the same with GPUs, and to a lesser extent CPUs and memory and storage. Moores law is great in many ways, but as a buyer of high end technology it always stings to see the same thing be 30-50% cheaper a few years later.
Progress does seem to have slowed down within the past few years for monitors. I expect the pandemic is relevant there.
This is very true. I just got a previous-generation top-of-the-line CPU and GPU. It's way more power than I will ever need and if I went for latest gen I could have afforded barely mid-level for the same price[1]. Even taking into account the fact that latest gen is faster, I still got better performance for dollar (20-30% better depending on benchmarks).
[1] With regards to the CPU I'm factoring in the saving of not having to buy a new motherboard.
=== ====
OK, now: try to use it to do something. Anything. Something as simple as write a NOTEPAD note, or play one song from iTunes.
=== ====
Nope! You are surely getting screenfulls of information telling you, this Apple device has been locked and only the original owner can unlock it.
I suppose this is to prevent people from stealing Apple devices and reselling them to pawn shops or on eBay and Craigslist, and it must be working. All thieves everywhere must know by now, don't even bother to try to steal an Apple device or a Tesla car, for as soon as you do it gets bricked from all the satellites in space.
=== ====
I'm writing this because I bought a nine year old iPad on eBay and have spent the last two weeks trying to get through to AL-SUPPORT Activation Lock support at Apple, asking them to unlock it. And of course they don't care, I am not the original owner of the device, and unless I am, it is as useless as a digital brick. Battery life, screen quality, beautiful craftsmanship of the item itself, nothing matters. It just sits there telling me I'm practically a criminal for even owning this device.
No matter that the original owner gave up on it long ago, when even the simplest apps like YouTube and Gmail stopped working on it, by design, intentional planned-obsolescence coming down from Apple themselves. With the iOS getting relentlessly updated every year, all the apps get forcibly recompiled and anything old just doesn't work any more at all.
They don't care about this device any more. It was just a real-world dongle they used to get information from and about the original owner, information they've got stored in their giant database in the Cloud. They don't really care about me at all.
I imagine the universe is now littered with these devices, an Oort Cloud of them completely surrounding the planet, mentally bricked by annual iOS updates and physically bricked by Activation Locks, I'm a criminal for owning one, and were I to bring it to an Apple store to complain, they would have no useful help for me at all, "Buy a new one!" they'll tell me, "that's our company policy!"
=== ====
Who is causing the problem here --- me, or Apple?
That's because it's incomplete.
A $5k screen is not so much a tool of the trade as an accessory for someone signalling themself to be valuable or valued. More commonly, coming to own these things is the result of little professional envy.
Our software engineers spend all day developing. They sit in $2-300 chairs and work on their preferred displays (last gen dual Apple TB displays for the Mac guys, dual anythings for the Windows, 1440p ultrawides for the java team).
You know who the only person in our org with an XDR is? The CIO with a MacBook Air, for writing emails and teleconferencing. They got theirs because another C-level made a big deal about how they couldn't work without their dual 5K UltraFines, also for sending emails and teleconferencing.
None of our enployees who could make use of an XDR display owns one because they either own a more industry-capable professional display (Flanders Scientific, Dolby, Sony pro series) or got an iMac Pro when they existed for under $5k.
I don't fault anyone who admires the XDR any more than I fault myself for liking any of the niche luxury items I do, but I wouldn't delude myself for even a moment into believing that an $8k watch is an essential investment because time management is an important skill to have.
apple does a really poor job of supporting external displays. there's virtually no good options if you want something with high refresh, good latency and reasonable pixel density and color reproduction
If anything for most users this thing is amazing (but expensive), and for the few users who were "tricked" into thinking this is a $5000 reference monitor it's not good...
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Bleed is non-existent, right off the bat. In fact it doesn't make sense it'd have bloom and backlight bleeding, aggressive HDR produces bloom... so the same aggressive HDR would hide BLB.
Bloom is also a complete non-issue for most users. I use this monitor primarily to consume text and casual media... I got weeks at a time before remembering this monitor had HDR enabled full-time when some super thin loading spinner or something appears on a completely black background while the brightness is cranked to max but the room is kind of dark... it essentially takes a torture test to get the FALD to be problematic
Off-axis color accuracy, again, complete non-issue for most users. If I was producing Avatar 2 it might be an issue, but compared to any "normal" monitor it's a complete non-issue, especially when the trade off is exactly 0 backlight bleed, which is 100 times more annoying.
For "most users" there's no better productivity monitor. Even a $20,000 reference monitor would be useless for us since we're not going to be able to drive or configure it...
But it wasn't even close. ( And I am still somewhat pissed off about it)
If it's actually the best in enough areas to make it worthwhile, then that's great, and maybe it is worth the cost to some people. Maybe something like the Dell 8k monitor is a better fit for more people in the market for one of these, at a cheaper cost ($4k with a stand), more pixels, and similar feature set (if lacking some named features). Maybe not. I probably don't know enough to accurately judge, but it sure looks like Apple's trying to fleece some people that want the brand name to me.
NHK World ran a program a few years back dedicated to the art of the Japanese scissors making, and it was an enlightening experience to watch. The meticulous attention to every single aspect of the scissors, ranging from the carbon content of the steel to ways of sharpening them by hand (no machinery used) has nearly implored my mind. Or, perhaps, I was just that impressed.
If they say their hairdresser uses $4000 scissors because that's what the real professionals pay, hey, let them dream.
Also sharpening twice a day sounds more like a ritual than a real need. But what do I know I’m not in that industry.
In early high school I scrimped and saved and purchased a NEC 3FG flat CRT (13 inches I think) and I was so glad I spent the money—-much sharper, bigger, and better that what I had before.
In late college it was the same story for a used 21” Sony CRT. The thing weighed an absolute ton but it was awesome. Crisp 1600x1200 at 85hz. I lugged it way too many places—-coding in friend’s basements and playing games.
As a young engineer, Apple released their first 1920x1200 24” LCD at $3500. I remember telling a coworker it was a bit too much for me but at $2k it would be a no-brainer. A year (or something) later I remember him telling me that Apple had just dropped the price to $2k. I ordered one the same day.
And, yes, today, I have a Cinema Display XDR.
I have never regretted spending money on monitors. The total number of hours of use that I get out of them (say 6 hours a day for 6 years ~= 13,000 hours) makes them one of the easiest things to justify spending money on.
Uhm, I would say that fully remote $300k+ jobs are still unlikely.
> Uhm, I would say that fully remote $300k+ jobs are still unlikely.
Well, yes, reaching the top of one's profession is unlikely. But those who fit the preconditions established by GP probably have no issues finding 300k remote.
(That said, I would never spend more than $300 on a monitor regardless of income... for me, there is literally no return because cheap monitors have gotten so darn good. The one possible exception would be an e-ink display that mimicked the coding/authoring experience of a standard display, but AFAIK that doesn't exist yet. That said, I'm not exactly paid for my aesthetic intuition ;-) )
Entry level dev, yeah going to be hard. Senior level dev with a decent resume? Shouldn't be an issue at all.
I know many dozens of engineers that work fully remote and make >> $300k.
If it was $2k or so for the Apple Pro Display XDR, or if they did a middle-man option that provided the 6K resolution but wasn't as bright etc, I'd snap one up in an instant - but I want it mostly for text & software development. I don't need perfect colour accuracy (although, I do like it).
It's ironic, it's probably heavily discounted because no one can drive it... but if it had come out later with newer connectivity options, it'd be selling like hot cakes and just as expensive as an XDR
If you are a developer try considering a 12.9 iPad Pro possibly? At least the aspect ratio is much better and the refresh rate is there but it also is too small for the rest of the examples. I don't see Apple releasing a monitor that will be middle of the road but I could see an LG refresh.
As a developer when I am doing my side projects I mainly make my terminal consume the middle third of the screen and have other relevant information or have it fill the screen. The only issue filling the screen is that you are possibly looking at the edges too much and that can cause eye strain.
But, would I buy an XDR again? Absolutely. Doing anything with this monitor makes every other monitor I own second rate. Also, content consumption is excellent to the point that its brighter than the theaters around me. Also, having a Mac which is fully compatible with an XDR allows me to manage it without touching one button on a monitor. It's integration with the rest of the system is by far the most appealing option. I do own the non Nano option.
It’s a fantastic piece of equipment. Apple’s business discount and Apple Card cash back program chips away at the initial cost.
I sell used Apple products regularly as I upgrade and they hold their value pretty well. XDR is not an exception, check eBay.
Liquidating an XDR in favor of say Apple VR or an upgraded XDR will reduce the cost of ownership a great deal. Do the math for yourself.
I use it with a 2018 Mac mini and standard Blackmagic egpu largely for full stack development. It’s amazing.
I occasionally edit video in final cut, and watched Dune in 4K HDR on it.
If you’re considering an XDR I would not let all the negative opinion here sway you too much.
You can read about the experiences other developers and non tech folks have had w the XDR in this thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pro-display-xdr-owners-...
I can afford $5000. But I would not pay this money. I do away just fine with 4K 32" BenQ at $700. I use it for programming and for this task that $5000 brick offers no advantages for me. And it is not ever real pro display. Those go for much more than 5K. Try 20K and up.
But there are several issues with the Apple Pro Display if you are not a video artist:
- it uses a lot of power and even requires a fan.
- it does have only one input port. Of all companies, Apple might consider the use case that you need to connect your (work) laptop and your (private) Mac to your screen.
So the price isn't only pretty much outside of the budget of most mortals, even if you treat it as a once in a lifetime luxury expense, it is quite limited. I so hope either Dell makes a screen with the same panel, but with ports ans somewhat less expensive, or Apple makes a consumer screen again, I hope so much it is larger than 27", I find this size too limited. And if they do, please give it more than one port.
It's not even about "getting something expensive but good as a professional expense to invest in the tools of your trade" - as a developer might see it.
It's quite a bargain for what it is, period. This monitor has specific capabilities, competitive monitors to which, used in the video and post-production industry, cost anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000, from vendors like Sony and such.
For a software engineer, all monitors are worth $100k+. This particular monitor is worth $110k+. So yes, spend an extra few $k to get the best.
Why would a consumer product that I can get for $800 would be worth $100k for me, thus justifying overpaying for it? Am I supposed to buy $50k wallet because I take it everywhere now? Or $250k glasses because I wear them all day?
Why turn this into a morality play?
[0] There is LG, but these displays have their issues as the article explains.
Dell has a 32 inch 8k display which is ~280 ppi in stock.
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-ultrasharp-32-8k-m...
At $300 and around $500 for an old iMac on eBay, this could be somehow both more economical and likely more reliable than the displays currently on the market (see my other message in this thread). Also it’s just going to be a pity when those beautiful old computers start hitting the landfills.
It's a proprietary bit that combines the DVI and power onto a single cable that plugs into the back of the display.
Many resellers process used Apple displays just like every other brand. You don't sell a DVI or VGA cable with a monitor. It's no big deal.
But without the required Apple brick, your very nicely calibrated large LCD monitor is... just a brick.
I also own Gigabyte AERO 15 OLED laptop and I must admit I prefer this screen over Apple's. White text on black looks amazing and to be honest feels a bit magical, like a thing floating in the air, especially if I look on this screen in a dark room. Code, terminal content looks amazing. It's only 60Hz though, but for mostly static coding 60Hz is enough. Ubuntu works really well, so I don't have to deal with Windows for programming work if I don't have to.
I'm tempted to buy LG OLED 27EP950, it's expensive, but honestly I'd pay those money to reproduce Gigabyte AERO 15 OLED experience on 27 screen. But I know it won't happen, because LG screen will have worse pixel density, it's only 4K. It should be 5K at least, or even 5.5K or even 6K.
For instance, on my iPhone 13 Pro, I can see the on-off-on-off clearly once I’m below 20% brightness. The eye strain of oled is terribly annoying.
I agree with you on the blooming, but there are no options today that scratch all itches.
Some amoled phones are using dc dimming...
I bought a couple Dell U2720Q instead, and they’re great; until something more compelling is available.
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-ultrasharp-27-4k-u...
4K IPS at 144Hz (or 120Hz depending on video card)
HDR
400 nits
It also rotates to portrait mode, has a built in backlight for eyestrain, is essentially borderless- and it's $800-900.
Have had it over a year with no issues.
I think it looks better with it enabled than without, seems like darker darks / richer color, but I'm not an HDR or monitor enthusiast, so check better sources before making a purchase.
It's also matte which I like more than the LG 5k's glossy screen.
It's 28.2" and 3840x2560 - it's a 3:2 aspect ratio.
I think it's a very tempting option.
Perhaps I can pay this forward by mentioning the Eizo 1:1 (1920x1920) monitor @ 26.5" diagonal:
Includes audio - stereo speakers and microphone array.
Not sure the display can be used on a VESA mount; there are ports on the stand, but a detail illustration shows feed-through to ports on the hinge.
The Amazon UK site seems to be willing to ship it to my US address.
About $780, with that shipping cost.
- HDMI 2.1 can push 8K @ 60Hz over a single cable (though I am told the colors are not full range? https://twitter.com/MaratTanalin/status/1426726300585185284 - "Afaik, 8K@60Hz via HDMI 2.1 is only possible with either DSC compression or chroma subsampling — both are lossy.")
- A 3090 can push the pixels
- 8K TV prices have come down to ~$1500-$2000 - In theory, some combination of Game Mode and/or manually turning off all forms of picture post-processing can get you into good-to-good-enough input lag
If you want to wait for monitor manufacturers to manufacture 8K monitors, well, while it's inevitable, it'll be a while. But for the bold and stout of heart, for those willing to take risks, a new adventure awaits you. 8K
I still find it hard to believe though that I can't change the brightness via the keyboard though in state of the art monitors. Does anyone know of any monitors where this is possible, or do they mostly require you to go through the terrible built in controls?
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-32-4k-usb-c-hub-mo...
I'm sitting on a very large database of monitor data coming from Lunar's diagnostics and error reporting (https://lunar.fyi)
Maybe I should organize it into Postgres and then search for monitors with the PPI I want.
Or is there any easier solution than Postgres for fast ingesting some JSONs and filtering by arbitrarily nested fields?
I'd love to have something with an easy to use UI for filtering that can also be shared.
Thankfully, as more and more public figures begin using OLED TVs instead of computer monitors, and as the monitor market takes after the larger consumer TV market, we will start to see better technologies compete with each other like OLED and FALD/miniLED.
It's a horrible time to buy a monitor right now, if you could wait even a year you should do so.
But keep in mind the relativity of "retina". It depends just as much on viewing distance as it does PPI. There are several handy charts you can view online relating the minimum noticeable viewing distance based on PPI.
So if you set a 27" or 32" screen at a decent distance you get "Retina" quality. If you want the screen closer maybe not. Unfortunately the market for more than 4K isn't really yet here for various reasons. Maybe if 8K catches on as a media format we take the next step. At that point only if you want to set the screen so close you can't view it all at once will it be worth it to go higher.
The better definition of "retina" is far simpler: you render UI at >1x scale on it.
*
27" 3840x2160 ASUS PG27UQ / ACER PREDATOR X27 (same panel in both monitors)
32" 3840x2160 ASUS PG32UQX
35" 3440x1440 ASUS PG35VQ
49" 5120x1440 Samsung Neo G9
After both of those I find it works absolutely flawlessly for me now, and it is comfortably the best external display I have ever used.
I would adore any option that is even remotely as good.
Here's a decent 18.4", but it costs $14k[1], or you could get the 32" for $30k.
[1] https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1676872-REG/canon_560...
Additionally I’ve anecdotally observed that the dimmer the screen is relative to the background, the more disconnected I feel.
Sadly the firmware is flaky, the webcam sucks, it has huge bezels, and is very thick.
Rumor is apple might have a new consumer priced external display next year. Let’s hope it’s true.
Edit: Oh I see, that's one of the LG-but-really-for-Apple-only displays.
Still running 2x 30” Apple Cinema Displays because I prefer the 1600px height.
They are awful displays by modern standards. But what I’d give to have a panel that is 5120 x 3200.
For example, I use a a 4K 27" LG monitor. If I use native 4K resolution, the text is way too small. If I use 2:1 resolution, the text becomes too big and I lose real estate. I ended up with a scaled resolution with pixel approximation. I won't explain here why it may be a problem for some people, but it is.
In the end I pulled the trigger on a 1440p 49" ultrawide[1] because it appeared on sale one day for $600 with only $50 shipping from US to Japan. I really like the form factor for working with references off to the side, but it's dim, washed-out, and blurry compared to the macbook I use it with. I'll be replacing it as soon as something better is available.
And why do all monitors have absolutely terrible UIs? I virtually never use any feature aside from switching inputs, and that usually takes 10 button presses. Usually the buttons are all in a row but represent up/down/left/right. Adding insult to injury, the monitor I'm now using has single button access to change the power LED color or add a crosshair to the screen. And if it loses signal for a split second, such as to change resolution, it either changes to another input or powers down. Either of these takes 10 seconds to fix. The manual shows a remote control with the buttons I want, but apparently it is no longer included, or available.
My 15" display likes to produce a loud “pop” sound with the picture going bright white for a fraction of an eyeblink. It’s also HDR without being HDR — in SDR mode, the picture is hideous and in HDR, it’s merely bearable.
The 12.9" display is way better. No issues whatsoever, I sometimes take it with me when on the road. And it’s simply gorgeous when you have a lot of text to work with.
I feel the sweet spot would be the 17" ones I’m seeing on Amazon. If only they had proper VESA holes, proper DP sockets ubstead of USB-C and were reliable, I could replace my Dell P2145Qs with two of those. A good size, super small pixels, and just a fraction of power consumed.
Right now if I take my laptop off somewhere and come back, who knows if they’ll both power up. I’m frequently stuck on one display and no amount of unplugging and reconnecting or swearing helps.
I found the USB-C connector wears down over time and causes display and power issues. I've reflowed the connector itself, and am looking at doing a complete connector swap soon. The mechanicals of an active USB-C cable puts stress on the joints and causes them to crack and create unreliable connections. I wish there was a way to lock the connector in and use something else as strain relief.
edit: and they use too much bandwidth to daisy chain with anything else, too.
Also, I can see the display in the system report in the thunderbolt section, and devices daisy chained off of them work. It’s just the panel that’s being a bitch.
If Apple released an affordable pro level display with reasonably good specs, I'd make the jump.
I have a 4K one which is just amazing. Picture quality isn't everything (unless you work in a lab somewhere under time/budget constraints).
Agreed. Not a dealbreaker, especially since it's such a great screen otherwise. Although given the price, it's a shame this problem exists.
Now, I want to update to Apple's Pro Display XDR, but can't justify paying ~7 times more on it for now. Although 24-inch and 4K was a huge improvement for someone like me, used to only using a MacBook display (I spend the workday programming, and love photography), I still feel like 4K isn't enough.
I can't comfortably open my editor/browser, while also watching a video, for example. For some time I've tried to use my MacBook 15 Pro as a second display, but that didn't work either. I hate the fact that there're small differences in color/brightness, even though the quality of either individually is superb (the external is slightly better)... The only thing that helped a little bit with regards to using multiple displays was using the iPad to play videos thanks to AirPlay, but this is suboptimal.
TVs and mobile/portable devices get lots of attention. But pc monitor they are very far in manufactors priorities.
Add to this fact that manufacturing displays is a costly affair, so there are no "artisinal" choices.
Personally, I'm hanging out for a 5120x2880 display larger than 27". We've had 27" 5120x2880 displays for 6 or 7 years now, you'd think someone would have taken that res to a larger panel by now. But nope, still waiting.
edit: I'm wrong on that. oops. apparently that invalidates my entire point. (it doesn't)
display bandwidth matters, and connectors are where display bandwidth goes to die. apple had to design a special one for the bandwidth requirements of that display.
it's not so much a matter of panels, but display protocol bandwidth and connectors that allow it.
even Microsoft have the Surface Studio, and it's excellent 4500x3000 display, and it's only available as part of the Surface Studio because that's the cheapest way they can get the display bandwidth all the way to the screen. eliminate the connectors and hardwire it.
this is also why laptops (especially apple laptops) have such good displays. they don't have to destroy the signal integrity with connectors, and they can use more wires to carry the signal than HDMI or DisplayPort allow.
high resolution, high framerate monitors just won't happen over DisplayPort or HDMI without serious advances. I expect a new connector to appear before that.
6k 120Hz and 5k 144Hz are both possible over a single HBR3 link with DSC. Such monitors don't exist because the panels don't exist; rather the closest panel for sale is perhaps the 5120x1440 at 240Hz in the Samsung G9. Which has the same bandwidth requirements as a hypothetical 5120x2880 at 120Hz.
If you want 240Hz at >4k, or 8k 120Hz, then sure that exceeds existing DisplayPort 1.4 and ThunderBolt 4 bandwidth capabilities even with DSC, and you'll need the upcoming DisplayPort 2.0 link rates. (or DSC+chroma subsampling)
It's not terrible, but it's nowhere near as nice as the 27" 5K.
Because it's very blocky and not pleasant to use.
BTW, LG 24UD58 mentioned in the article is also only 180ppi.
I regret buying a 27 inch 4K monitor each and every day.
Sure, the PPI is much better than my 24 inch 1200p Dell Ultrasharp but a 27 inch 4K needs wither fractional scaling, which is a mess, or scaling fonts, which makes UI elements look weird.
24 inch 4K and 27 inch 5K should be a standard but all monitor OEMs are interested in making shitty gaming monitors.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort#eDP [2]: https://hackaday.com/2019/07/18/put-those-ipad-displays-to-w...
I am considering getting a M1 mac mini and use my 2 current imac27 retina as external monitors. My plan is to get a cheap small monitor for the mac mini, then use Barrier to use the imacs as external monitors.
Anyone here has gone that route?
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204592
Also, you can just spec the panels from Aliexpress most of the time. That's how I got my first Korean Retina IPS display over a decade ago, and I'm doing it again now for a non-standard OLED panel for a project.
It's kind of funny to me that the limiting factor in high-res, high-refresh-rate display technology is not so much the panels but the bandwidth of the cables and connectors.
LEDs are normally produced as very large panels on production lines where every panel is made to a given PPI (and upper bound on the refresh rate).
Of course the technology mix is the technology mix, but the industry is built around reasonably large investments in these production lines, amortized across the entire screen industry.
A 27 inch 1080p monitor and a 24 inc 1080p monitor are produced on distinctly different production lines as it were, as they have a different PPI. But a tiny screen with the same PPI as said 27 inch 1080p likely came from the same factory in Korea.
Apple's panels are actually produced under contract by LG in Apple specific production lines, hence they can obtain exotic PPIs. Because they promise to use the line's capacity for multiple years.
But I can get a $1000 4k, 120hz OLED screen. Sure, it might be 42-48", but I could just as easily buy a deeper desk, wall mount it 4-5 feet away for the same effect. I'm currently sitting 3.5 feet from a 24" monitor. In this instance, the TV becomes "retina" past 3 feet.
https://www.designcompaniesranked.com/resources/is-this-reti...
Let's assume when used as a monitor without excessive amounts of care, irreparable burn-in takes 2 years. I could buy two of these TVs and wait out the whole nonsense the market is going through right now. Re: Linus, Keep in mind that window snap burn in was fixed with the pixel refresh function. And the conclusion he and Wendell came to in that video was that it isn't perfect, and it's often wasteful, but you can just get another monitor.
the real problem is that a 1080p monitor at 360Hz requires six times the bandwidth of a standard 1080p60 monitor, while a 120Hz 4k UHD monitor requires eight times the bandwidth of a 1080p60 monitor.
it's easier to reach the FPS targets incrementally than it is to reach the resolution targets in larger jumps.
edit: This was intended to be a serious question. I thought the esports folks were mostly interested with minimizing input latency and maximizing framerate, to the exclusion of most other concerns. ESPN covers esports tournaments now, sometimes on the front page of espn.com, so I thought it was more popular than perhaps it is.
What I suspect is really going on is it's easier to overclock screens than it is to increase yield on high resolutions.
I drive it with an OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock with CalDigit Thunderbolt cables and a maxed out 13" 2020 MacBook Pro, and as of the latest version of macOS Big Sur it is rock solid.
It's mounted on a monitor arm, so I can't comment on the included stand.
I have no settled on a new monitor either, I'm using a 24" that is slightly too small for split screen use, but doable. 27" would be nice but 32" would likely be the best here.
There are a few good ones in the works. LG announced a new "IPS black" technology, which offers better contrast than your MacBook screen (claimed 2000:1, we'll see). As well, LG is manufacturing a few monitors for Apple this year. Some of these will be miniLED like the XDR display, but cheaper as manufacturing costs have likely reduced significantly.
The only monitor I'd even consider right now is the LGGN950 or one of the 5k2k displays, though the latter are notoriously finicky I've heard and currently not usable on Mac without a dedicated GPU.
but I might start claiming this too.
I never get a check, though, because they bet me back that they could slap a logo on a towelette and sell it for $20. Uncanny how evenly it cancels out.
During the launch, Apple generously rewarded it with the title "best Pro display on the market" and directly compared it to a 35k Sony reference monitor.
The problem is, Apple's screen is unusable as a reference monitor. The screen is not uniform, has a strong "vignette". The backlight zones create blooming artifacts. Color accuracy is fairly good, but not better than something found in a low-end BenQ.
Not only is it not the best pro monitor, it's not a pro monitor at all. It literally cannot be used as a reference monitor. It's basically a 6K LCD screen with all the problems that come with LCD.
You can't; that's the point. There are no 6K monitors besides the ridiculous Apple one and the Dell 8K probably needs to be run at 2.5x which I don't know if macOS even supports.
FWIW, I’ve had a remote job in this pay range pre-pandemic, but even I wouldn’t say that it’s easy or common.
I wasn’t aware some AMOLED phones use dc dimming. I would love to have that. It’s so weird looking at your phone and seeing the screen turn on and off repeatedly.
I assume the desktop monitor business is so low margin that it’s barely worth investing in these days.
And I get it, I buy for quality, too. But no one is passing up offers over the faux pas of being presented with an inferior chair.
And yeah good mesh back chairs come in at about $300 wholesale.
I find often that the ones available retail are not as good as the ones my big-ass corporation buys though, because furniture has a huge retail markup.
And yes, strong vision correction is also potentially worth $250k if you make a programmer’s salary and that’s the only way you can work. It’s just important to operationalize “10% better” as a measure of how much it helps your output. If your productivity increases 10%, it’s worth an additional $25k cost.
One more example: Imagine McDonald’s Big Mac Value Meals cost $1 each and every other meal cost $50. Assuming you make a $100k+ salary, I think you should opt for the $50 meals quite often, even though most of the country is eating Big Macs and thinking you must be crazy.
As for your last example, it again make sense on its own.
In case of these monitors though, I see it more like every burger costs $10 but there is also $40 one that has a nice logo stamped on the bun. Also you have to pay extra for a plate. I don't think I am buying that one very often.
You can get nicer stuff, but you should order it specifically, and explain why you need it.
For instance, I have a green screen CRT that I can work on at any nit as long as the contrast is basically infinite (text dim or bright), but as soon as the rest of the screen becomes illuminated, it's like I'm peering through a literal fog.
Contrast that to a dimmed 4k 10-bit panel, and I find myself dropping out of focus or losing my place. I'm looking for a particular OLED panel right now on AliExpress to test with.
A honing steel doesn't remove material, a sharpening steel does.
It's nothing compared to the XDR. I have no idea why this person thinks the XDR is bad for everyday users.
- I got one as a programmer who mostly looks at text. If you didn't tell me it has HDR always enabled I wouldn't have known, they've done an excellent job with managing bloom on non-HDR content.
- The resolution makes text milky smooth in a way that I always though 4k was this whole time
- 60hz has never bothered me despite regularly switching between this, the 144hz monitor, and a 360hz monitor....
- Accelerometer is neat enough, I have mine on a gas spring monitor arm and can be occasionally helpful to rotate
- Build quality is unmatched by all the gamer aesthetic stuff out there. Remove "backlight bleed" from your vocabulary.
The OWC is my primary dock, but I did try the CalDigit one for a bit (both TB3.) Why? Same problem you're having - the monitors would never wake from sleep.
At the time I was using a Dell P2415Q with macOS and this monitor would just refuse to wake up from sleep or when I swapped laptops on the dock. It "just worked" far less than half of the time. I would have to hard power cycle by unplugging the monitor power cable - power button recycle was rarely sufficient.
I could never find a fix for this, but after a lot of searching I was led to believe that it was a problem with EDID and macOS with this particular monitor. I never confirmed this though.
The problem was almost entirely fixed with the latest macOS Big Sur update. I have to power cycle the monitor only a couple times a month now. Huge difference, and seems to be the case with both docks.
the proof is that video cards and monitors and TVs either simply don't support that bandwidth, or they're so expensive that they're essentially hand made.
That's how you know, you look at the market and see what's available, and what it costs. People would buy the heck out of this stuff if it were possible to make it work with common, sloppy, reusable connectors like HDMI or DisplayPort. The fact of the matter is that it isn't possible to make this stuff with removable connectors, yet.
That's why you see very high DPI displays in applications where there isn't any need for high cycle-count connectors, or only single-use connectors well before you see the same displays with high-cycle count connectors.
or they use display compression to fake it.
but what do I know? you did some google searches.
I don't believe you would actually do this or you wouldn't make that comment, but either way don't do it to satisfy me.
> Why turn this into a morality play?
As I said, a lot of people are struggling and hungry. The point of the comment is to inject a little reality in to the idea that a $4,000 monitor is "worth it" because someone is at the computer a lot. But the marginal happiness of an HN user buying a $4,000 monitor instead of a $2,000 is very low, and there are other ways to spend extra cash. If you have extra money right now, consider donating it. It's cold outside and people need help.
Why get upset anyway? I think I made a fine suggestion. Someone could do what I suggested. Or not. You don't have to do it if you don't want to.
at least not when you wrote this:
> Don't do it because I am satisfied or not.
but for some reason you felt the need to edit it to:
> I don't believe you would actually do this or you wouldn't make that comment, but either way don't do it to satisfy me.
You should probably rollback the edit.
I'm from Ghana, I probably donate what you've donated in a decade every month to people who need it more than any American ever will.
And not just money, time. I don't go back home just to see my family after all, I've spent months of my time working with my father on his USAID project in the country. Is taking a 6 month unpaid sabbatical and giving up 200k in pay enough for our resident patron saint of the poor?
I grow reallll tired of people like this. People in the "1st world" who based on their virtue signaling you'd assume live like monks but in reality live in relatively cozy excess completely unaware of half the reality the actual downtrodden face.
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Semi-off topic but based on this comment I feel like you're exactly who needs to hear this. The degree to which virtue signaling has become an integral part of some people's sense of identity in this country is infuriating: It's not cold where I'm from, people still need help.
Getting giddy off slogans and token shows of kindness in one of the most privileged countries on earth...
Where I'm from "needing help" isn't a seasonal issue, and it's not even close to being as bad as it gets globally.
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> But the marginal happiness of an HN user buying a $4,000 monitor instead of a $2,000 is very low, and there are other ways to spend extra cash.
What a joke. Did it ever occur to you spending fractions of a percent more compared to what you get paid to sit in front of the damn thing is a marginal expense?
> Why get upset anyway? I think I made a fine suggestion. Someone could do what I suggested. Or not. You don't have to do it if you don't want to.
Because you have the audacity to talk so condescendingly based on someone's monitor choice. I couldn't resist replying in kind.
But other than that you’ve read too much in to me. My entire philosophy is that we must change the way our economy operates to eliminate poverty. I’m setting my own life up so that all of my engineering work goes to support this goal. Everything I do is open source so people all over the world can benefit, and I am learning how to operate an engineering project sustainably that can stay open source without needing to cave to commercial interests. The project I am learning this on is an open source farming robot of my own design, and I have sunk a fair bit of my time for free in to the project and earn less than half of what I did working at google. It was my idea to operate the project as open source, and to intentionally collaborate with people all over the world to make a design that can be fabricated cheaply anywhere.
Once I learn how to manage this community oriented engineering project, the next project will be large scale free hot meal producing machines. I want to make free meals the way the Sikhs do in India, where an army of volunteers cooks 50,000 free meals a day at a single location, and collectively across India their non profit NGO produces over 1.7 million free meals a day. I want to use my skills in automation and engineering management to make open source machines to do the work of those volunteers, and if I succeed we will open a demonstration facility in Oakland that can serve hundreds of meals a day, scaling hopefully to thousands.
You mention virtue signaling. But I am not here for signaling. I really do find it weird when people on here talk about how they’re going to spend all their money on themselves. And I make this mild suggestion that they consider donating their money because I want to see how people respond. I wasn’t condescending, I just said someone could buy cheaper and use their excess money to help the needy. We have a real problem with consumerism in the USA and it is destroying the planet. I think it’s worth making a gentle suggestion to donate. And invariably someone gets upset and makes a big deal out of it. So today that person was you.
But I’m working very hard to do my part. Sharing my work with all and trying to make it sustainable. I taught a robotics class in Mauritius to some students from Ghana, and Kenya and South Africa and Ethiopia and Morocco. When I design my farming robot I have them in mind. Once our design is operational I want to find people in Nairobi who can build them, and I will help them every way I can. Hopefully some day one of my students will be able to use it. A few of them really wanted to bring farming robots back home.
EDIT: This linked comment below really nicely sums up what I am getting at. I’m not saying a developer shouldn’t have a nice monitor but there is a point at which it becomes extravagant, and I really don’t understand why you’ve fixated on me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29708573
Apple took a large leap into giant monitors with high DPI. Most people don't care a lot about it, when you are not that close to the monitor, the retina effect is not worth, for mass market, the cost difference.
In the end, you are both correct. It is slow for the top of the line but super fast for everyone else upgranding mid-range monitors.
But a current $500 (MSRP) GPU thoroughly spanks a 5 year old $500 GPU. Even my 2 year old Radeon 5700xt is feeling out of date.
And the "good" scale depends mostly on PPI of the monitor, as well as user preference. On a 27" 4K monitor, 1x scale is near unusable: the UI elements would be microscopic. Windows defaults to 150%, but 175% and 200% are fine as well (here's the user preference aspect).
Eventually, we should at least rename 2X to 1X and move on like we did before.
27" Ultrafine 5K - bought in 2018, so 3+ years old, $1000+. 27" LG 4K - bought in 2019, so 2+ years old, $600+. 27" Dell Ultrasharp 1440p - bought in 2016, $800+. 24" Dell Ultrasharp 1920x1200 - bought in 2013, $400+.
All of these are in active use still - even the 8 year old 24" is still a solid AH-IPS monitor with decent wide-gamut colour support and LED backlighting.
I'd be very disappointed in a $1k display that was showing irreparable issues after 2 years. I'd be positively angry at a $1k display with issues after 6 months.
If it was stolen from the original owner then you don't really own the device legally and this is the anti-theft part of activation lock functioning as designed. If you're an innocent third party to the original theft, your remedy is to get a full refund.
If it was just because the original owner forgot to disable activation lock, you should be chasing them to unlock it for you. If they refuse, your remedy is to get a full refund.
edit: reputable recycling places require you to have disabled activation lock on functional devices, or they don't pay out.
The device was old enough that I just heaved a sigh and gave it to Apple for recycling.
> What if I use two-factor authentication on a device running older software?
> If you use two-factor authentication with devices running older OS versions – such as an Apple TV (2nd or 3rd generation) – you may be asked to add your six-digit verification code to the end of your password when signing in. Get your verification code from a trusted device running iOS 9 and later or OS X El Capitan and later, or have it sent to your trusted phone number. Then type your password followed by the six-digit verification code directly into the password field.
I mean, you bought stolen goods. The law says you are culpable to some degree. If this was a legit sale, the original owner would be willing to do what's needed to make it useable.
Apologies if this sounds like victim blaming, it's not what I'm going for. Just trying to enlighten on how to avoid this in the future.
edit: you can in fact get HBR3 working, what's not working at full rate with DP instead of thunderbolt is the USB3 hub on the display.
This unfortunately leads to a cycle of more mining, even if the card isn’t optimized for it, as no card is a net negative cash flow atm even factoring in energy costs.
I got Dell's "5k" ultrawide before the XDR, and at the time M1 Macbooks couldn't do fractional scaling at that high of a resolution.
The result was essentially a wider 32" 1080p screen. And while the text was crisp, the space efficiency was absolutely awful.
I can't even imagine the 16:9 version of that...
> I don't believe you would actually do this or you wouldn't make that comment
That's what you said to me, not someone else. And all you had to go on was me saying: Spending an extra $2000 on a tool you use 8 hours a day is not something to pass a moral judgement on.
Most people would not object to what I said: a $5000 tool is a pittance in comparison to what some not nearly as well compensated people end up spending on better tools.
So if despite that you try to turn it into an issue of donating more to your fellow man... what's the term for that?
What is a term for forcing virtue and morality into a conversation in a way that does more to signal your own position than actually add to the conversation in a cohesive way?
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To put it more plainly: browbeating people over not spending $2000 less on a monitor is the height of virtue signaling in a forum where people are stating they make a living off of them.
I mean even in your reply you're doing it! People are talking about an expensive monitor and somehow you twist it into:
> "I really do find it weird when people on here talk about how they’re going to spend all their money on themselves."
You really don't see how nauseatingly disingenuous you're being? Talking about spending $5,000 on a monitor is tantamount to saying you spend all your money on yourself?
Didn't that exact wrong assumption already lead you astray with me?
My first comment said it all: Why make this a morality play.
It's the definition of virtue signaling.
> Someone could also buy a really nice monitor for $2k and donate the other 2k to a local food bank. A lot of people are struggling and hungry.
And I think it is reasonable for me not to believe that a random internet commenter is going to make a $5000 donation while they accuse me of making a morality play. I'm not saying you will never donate $5000, but I do believe you will not make any additional donations due to our exchange. It just sounded like hot air.
But I can see that you want to tear me down, and I don't really care. We have strayed far beyond good faith conversation so I'm going to exit this now.
You're free to martyr yourself though. Act like I'm just tearing you down. Not addressing anything you've said in these comments.
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Maybe in a moment of introspection you might realize that no one would tear you down for suggesting food banks exist, and maybe, juuuuuust maybe you did something wrong when you:
- Tried to make it about choosing between spending money on tools and donating to food banks, as if the two are mutually exclusive.
- Made assumptions about a complete stranger's donation habits based on a monitor purchase and telling you not to make a tooling choice a morality play...
- Claimed that people talking about a monitor are actually saying they spend all their money on themselves.
Of course, it'll be easier to not do any of that and go on thinking that there's this weird Ghanian guy who hates food banks and spends all his money on himself because he likes the Apple Pro Display XDR.
But even on Windows, the choices at 27" 4K aren't great. 100% is too small. 200% is too large. 150% is quite nice, but I find apps regularly don't scale properly, and text still isn't as nice as 200% on a 5K display.
edit: and on Linux, it's similarly not great - integer scaling works quite well on most modern DEs. Fractional scaling is a mixed bag and a lot of apps have broken or compromised UI when it's in use.
As an aside, a user here recommended putting the outside monitors in vertical mode with the middle monitor in horizontal mode. It works extremely well for reading websites/documentation/terminal output while coding in the middle panel.
I think it could make a great secondary though.
I use 1.5× scaling in Sway, and haven’t observed even the slightest problem in any Wayland app. (I also use the high-DPI patches for XWayland, and run it at 3×, so that it’s an integer multiple of my scaling factor, a minor visual improvement on the very few X11 things I use that is probably not worth it.) I will note, however, that Firefox is rendering content at 2× and downscaling; setting the experimental widget.wayland.fractional_buffer_scale to 1.5 distinctly improves rendering, but had some very annoying bugs when I tried it several months ago which became debilitating maybe a couple of months ago, so I gave up on it.
Led to some pretty broken looking UI.
There's always a balance and trade-off here.
2x scaling with 4k really means you end up with the same screen real estate as 1080p.
In my opinion I would very much prefer 24" or 25" at 1440p with native scaling which is ~120 PPI. I personally run both a 25" 1440p display and another 24" 1440p display at 1x. I still consider going from 1080p to 1440p one of the biggest quality of life upgrades I've encountered when I made the switch 7 years ago. It's the same level of "wow this is great" as going from a HDD to SSD.
Before there were shortages you could get a high quality IPS panel monitor from a reputable brand (Dell, ViewSonic) with low input latency for around $300. 4k at 1.5x also gives you the same real estate as 1440p but with higher PPI but I don't know how crisp that will be given the scaling ratio.
Yes and no. With much clearer looking text, I can use smaller fonts (13 -> 11 in IntelliJ) than on regular 1080p displays, so there's _some_ difference.
1.5x is nice on a 27 inch 4k with 14+ fonts. HiDPI monitors do seem to have bloom, so slightly bigger fonts with higher DPI are good to have.
In terms of viewing space this fits (4) side by side code windows at 80 characters with a little bit of breathing room.
Is that even a problem? I am not buying better screen to torture my eyes. IMO. A smaller sharper text won't really be easier to see compared to a larger but blurrer text.
I wear glasses and 25" at 1440p has very clear text. I feel no strain. Even the grey text on HN is very readable from about 32" (81 cm) away which is my normal viewing distance. It's readable without much strain from 45" (114 cm) but I wouldn't want to use things that far away.
For reference my work issued laptop is a 13" 2020 MBP so I have experienced retina. I would take the 1440p screen real estate at ~120 PPI (24"/25") 10 out of 10 times vs going back to 1080p but with higher PPI. There's also the added benefit of never having to think or worry about poor UI scaling since not all apps handle scaling well, but that's not a deciding factor in my mind, more of a nice to have.
I believe that depends entirely on the desktop environment. Sway does real fractional scaling rather than the idiotic downscaling way.
Of course, independent of the desktop environment, you could just tell supporting applications to just manually render bigger UI (exactly how you would on X11 with some TOOLKIT_DPI variable thing per UI toolkit) and keep the monitor scale in the compositor at 1x. That's probably what you've been doing. That doesn't support multiple monitors with varying scale.
(One thing that is comically broken about Sway and I think Wayland in general is cursor sizes. Specifying `seat seat0 xcursor_theme Adwaita 96` nets me at least four or I think five different cursor sizes, varying by app, and at least one of the dodgy sizes is actually a fractional scaling bug, scaling by ceil(1.5) rather than 1.5.)
For screen size, I think there is some screen size that's most comfortable to view, and I want to say that's like ~40% of the human FOV... so, I think a 24" monitor and 15" laptop are most comfortable for me, but 27" might be a bit nicer if you're using it for media as well.
I never need to run app and editor side by side on same screen. I always have 2+ screen in any setup. So I just threw it to another if I want ever want to run it side by side. And besides, I seldom codes with my 27 4K screens.
They ares used mostly on browsing web/gaming. which you can't use something side by side isn't even a issue.