My Personal Note Taking Journey(phonetonote.com) |
My Personal Note Taking Journey(phonetonote.com) |
I wasted months, just to realise the tools or systems do not matter at all. Interlinking notes doesn't scientifically make you a better writer, writing does.
Niklas Luhmann (who invented the Zettelkasten) invented his system because he was an insanely productive scholar, not the other way around.
If anything, I think re-writing works better than interlinking notes, because it forces you to consider the whole. But at some point some things becomes static enough that putting it aside and linking to it may be worthwhile.
It can't fix "you're a bad writer."
And maybe isn't even useful if you have really good memory.
But no need to posit "magic" for an improvement.
Org-mode is a combination of note taking, todolist, jupyter notebook, & calendar major-mode for Emacs. It is wonderful and terrible in a lot of the ways emacs itself is. It is incredibly configurable and extendable, and feature rich to the degree that discovering spreadsheet support after using it for 6 months seems to be a rite of passage.
Org-roam is an extension ontop of org-mode that creates an roam like layer.
The largest drawback stems from it being so flexible making it hard to develop a good phone client for it. Through Álvaro Ramírez's PlainOrg(iOS) & Orgzly (Android) do help somewhat.
Mobile-wise, lately I've been using emacs through termux on my Android (LineageOS) phone. With a keyboard attached through usb-c there isn't much difference. Even using the touch keyboard it's better than the alternatives.
If I have no connectivity, the last thing I want is to be editing my org files on yet another device and introducing conflicts. I use something like beorg (ios) for background-sync offline read-only access but don't use it to write offline.
1: https://tecosaur.github.io/emacs-config/config.html 2: https://blog.tecosaur.com/tmio/ 3: https://github.com/rougier#emacs-hacking
Apps like Logseq, Obsidian and Dendron don't have subscriptions.
The forgiving format (entries are not pre-dated so you’re allowed to miss a day, the bar on entry length is set low by design) coupled with absence of friction when traveling (no poor connectivity, low battery, etc.) really went a long way.
I knew that even the need to find a pen to write the day’s journal would be enough friction for me to skip it, which is why I tied one to it.
I’ve filled up a couple of these little notebooks, but I haven’t been able to replicate this consistency with any digital solutions.
[0] #HashtagADay: A Hashtag Journal https://www.amazon.com/dp/145213927X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_...
Perhaps the greatest benefit I've found in using logseq is in organizing the scientific literature I'm reading. At any point while writing, linking a paper I've read (the PDF itself, as well as my notes on it) is a few keystrokes away. This linking allows me to externalize the context with which I know a paper. I just need to browse the backlinks to see all the ways in which I've made reference to it over the entire history of my notes.
Kinopio is also such a delightful tool. I wrote about it a while ago [2] in my network thinking newsletter, source/target
[0] https://github.com/cjlm/send-to-workflowy [1] https://workflowy.com/ [2] https://sourcetarget.email/editions/15/
There was always _something_ missing from those apps. If you have time and inclination, Emacs can be customised to behave almost exactly like you want it.
Data freedom is a biggie for me. I like to have a folder of text files that I can move around, backup as I want and do fun stuff with[0].
[0] e.g. I've been having fun with making a Mastodon toot-queue org file. I just dump ideas on the org file and a cron job toots one every hour until the queue is empty.
I've been interested in coming back to remnote, the mobile app seems a lot better. The key thing I wanted in it is the spaced repetition flashcards. I feel like linking that to my notes would be really useful, although I've not got back into it and stuck with it. The best thing being the one you use I guess.
I find this approach quite similar to TeuxDeux in the OP.
Especially if someone is looking for a non-subscription Bear alternative.
The topics come in fairly random order. I keep a table of contents at front, and compile an index at the back as I go. After trying this system for a few months, I can attest that an index is, indeed, a useful thing. The great things about an index is that it allows you to find information based on multiple viewpoints.
The acid test of all these systems is "how useful have they been in practise?" As a lady in QA once sagely said: add value, not process. Or, as another poster noted, we have a tendency to fetishise different systems. As programmers, we're likely to be more guilty of this than most. But remember the whole point of the exercise. We're here to find information, not obsessively adhere to a system.
So that I can search for strings (bonus points for wildcards or regexp) in all the files in several folders and then lets you open the file at that point.
It'd be great to standardize the interop with note-taking services so people like us can write applications once and easily have them work with all the note-taking platforms out there. E.g. I'd love for someone to be able to write a spaced repetition app once, and immediately have it support any of the dozens of note-taking apps without needing special handling for each one.
I also initially went to Bear before trying out Notion and am now happily using Obsidian, which just got a Live Preview mode.
Kinopio looks great I will take it for a spin soon.
The obvious solution is to keep files in dropbox or google drive. This handles sync but not backup. I'm not sure about dropbox, but I know google drive is a nightmare to backup. You can use a few paid services to backup google drive, but you then need some kind of alerting to know when it's not running. Having to rely on a cloud storage service and a cloud backup storage does not give me long term confidence. I want something that works on most devices, is as future proof as possible and keep me in control of my data as much as possible.
Another option would be to use git to store notes, but I ran into problems when I tried to set up an auto commit and auto push. I couldn't get it working reliably. Some kind of auto pull would also be needed. Git just isn't designed to work like this so it seems like any setup would be janky at best.
Some options I've considered:
- Evernote: cloud based. rigid structure. Bad performance. I'm not in control of my data.
- emacs: I don't use emacs any more, so it's not already part of my workflow. Bad mobile experience. Same local syncing issues.
- Trilium: Really complex for someone who does not want to work with javascript. It might be too flexible for me.
- Roam: no web app last time i looked. No self hosted version.
- Logseq: Same issues as roam. Not server based / self hosted. The FAQ did mention a future option to maybe self host the optional server sync config, but it looks like it's not even on the roadmap.
- Web based. This will give the ultimate flexibility for me. Day to day I either live in a browser or VSCode. An optional app would be great, but not required.
- Ideally it would save files in simple, directory based, markdown files. This would be optimal for longevity. A second best would be storing it in a Postgres database.
- Easy to backup. Flat files or a database can be easily dumped and pushed off site with a cron. I use an easy dead mans switch / healthchecks.io alert if a job has not been fired off recently. The cron does some simple checks to make sure the data is a reasonable size (above 1MB). In an ideal world, if I used a DB I would dump the contents, restore it in docker somewhere and query a test entry before pushing it off site (encrypted s3, backblaze, or both).
- The right mix of simple, but feature rich. This will be different for everyone, but for me, the key things I want are: tags, search, task lists/todo lists, directory based structure and an auto daily notes template. I'd love a button that I could click to auto generate todays notes, with some pre-set todo tasks at the top, all in a specific format. Trilium could do this, but I'm not a javascript developer, so it was a non-starter for me.
- Docker based would be ideal. I run everything I personally self host in docker. It's not a deal breaker, but I would try to implement it my self in docker if I needed to.
I'm still looking for my golden tool. Right now, I've actually gone back to evernote. It's "good enough" at its core task of note taking, but for someone with an eye to build a personal knowledge base over the rest of my career (20 years left), I'm still looking for the ideal tool.
It is at the end of the day a directory of Markdown files, so it's flexible with other tools. I have a bunch of things like Markdownload configured to write into various sub-directories.
> Both the desktop and web app don't and will not require a commercial license for both personal usage and company usage, as long as if the data are stored locally and doesn't use our server.
https://opencollective.com/logseq/contribute/free-tier-30673
I see this comment or some variation of it every time a new product is shared here that has such a model.
What I rarely if ever see is a proposal for how the developer should make money instead of a subscription.
Very often, especially for hosted apps, the alternative is not better.
> I see this comment or some variation of it every time a new product is shared here that has such a model.
I observe something similar, but we seem to have drawn different conclusions.
> What I rarely if ever see is a proposal for how the developer should make money instead of a subscription.
At the risk of sounding trite, I think people who find subscriptions unpalatable would be happy with anything that isn't a subscription. These could be offered in parallel, so subscription-averse consumers have an alternative to evaluate.
A one-off payment is the obvious and most simple choice -- wrap some limits or caveats around data / transit usage if needed. Freemium option may work in some cases (I think there's sufficient successful examples to validate this as viable). (Only) enterprise users pay. Tier the offerings to protect yourself from the heavy eaters.
I don't think expressing fatigue at the relentlessness of subscription-ONLY services is invalid.
My 0.02: people feel the exact opposite. People hate subscriptions, people hate not having control over something that they feel has been "purchased".
For example, people complained very loudly about not being able to buy photoshop anymore. Any time office365 is discussed, again people complain. People seem to hate subscriptions.
What is true instead is that people are forced into subscriptions because one-time purchases are just not offered anymore.
Said no-one ever...
I sell a one-time-purchase Mac app and I've had multiple customers tell me "I wouldn't have bought if it was a subscription" - and this is for an app that saves people hours a week on video editing, what would seem like the prototypical example of a "recurring need". I think people are just tired.
Rewriting to me also seems to reduce the need to refer back to the notes even further, because it effectively acts as a revision also for the notes I decide are not worth summarising, and the few bits that might still be beneficial gets carried along in the rewritten summaries.
I don’t think it’s invalid to express fatigue at the model, but as feedback on a specific app/service here, it’s a bit tired without at least some kind of suggested alternative.
And truly I get it - I too have far too many subscriptions to things, but putting myself into the devs shoes, I get why it’s a prevailing approach these days.
Like you, I find the attitude about subscriptions frustrating. "Wants to be paid but doesn't want to pay". And yes, it's possible that the person objecting lives outside capitalist society and contributes an enormous volume to open source (or other volunteering), but statistically less likely.
I can see the benefit of bundling (e.g. Setapp), so that you're not killed by a million tiny subscriptions, but people need to be paid for their work, so one way or another money needs to flow to the creator.
Unless you're on iOS/iPadOS, as far as I know.
[0] https://ish.app/
As Obsidian keeps all your notes as plain markdown files, you can easily get it for free with two-way sync set up with Sync, box, MEGA, etc.
I consider a note-taking service to be a different situation, similar to a photo hosting service. Costs are ongoing (and typically growing) so it's not reasonable to expect a one time payment.
As for the first case, both Adobe and Microsoft are thriving for forcing subscriptions, so it makes a lot of business sense. From their perspective it makes sense to dismiss the outrage. People that need the software will ultimately give in and those that are complaining the most, weren't delivering revenue anyway.
The important thing to understand is that both examples are industry standard, irreplaceable software. There are little to no serious alternatives. A startup with some very optional software can't afford this arrogance.
They may well not be using the 'most current' version of the software, and I can think of a few pieces of software where that's been the case for me too. Either because I don't use it enough to justify the upgrade, or I actively object to being fleeced again for essentially the same product that's been "updated".
But eventually, if they want to continue doing the task they'll end up paying for a new version. Unless it's open source, it's always under the control of the product creator, and their incentives are always going to be on extracting money, and indeed they need to, to continue supporting the software.
In the Apple Ecosystem, the move to M1 Macs is an example that will force people to pay for upgrades.
Buying it once and riding it as long as possible is undoubtly cheaper than subscriptions, however it's still got a lifespan that eventually requires the next payment.
It’s searching app stores and seeing all the non subscription prices being <$20.
Doesn't mean this is what users prefer – it just means this is what the companies behind the apps (and thus making the $) prefer.
Of course people rather pay $10 x 1 than $10 x some number greater than 1. They rather pay $10x1 than $100x1 as well. All else being equal people prefer to pay less for things.
When more are willing to pay $10x20 than $100x1 I don’t know what you’d call that other than expressing a preference.
Is there a guide how to set it up?
One folder- a Notes folder where all your "vault"s are- on your phone. That syncs with a folder on the cloud. Then get the sync app client on your laptop/PC. Then sync a local folder from your laptop with the cloud folder.
The Obsidian for desktop app is pretty great.
The whole thing works great for me.
So it's like this-
_______ _________________ ________
|phone |---------------> |cloud |<--------------------- |laptop|
|notes | (2 way sync) |folder of | (2 way sync) |notes |
|folder|<-------------- |MEGA/DB/box/sync|---------------------> |folder|
------- ------------------ --------
Not if Obsidian doesn't let me choose the folder, because the sync apps don't have access to its default folder.
It equates to basically standing up a new vault on an iOS device and choosing to store it in iCloud in the first place, then migrating the data over
Some people use iPhones but work on Windows/Linux.
It is not completely obvious in the UI, but the basic idea is that you use a iOS git app (I use the excellent Working Copy) to just push and pull everything to GitHub, working around some inherent iOS limitations. As a bonus, you can setup the Shortcuts app to auto push and pull with closing and opening obsidian. There’s a git sync extension for obsidian, makes it all pretty seamless once it’s set-up.
1. https://forum.obsidian.md/t/mobile-setting-up-ios-git-based-...
At the end of the day Obsidian is just a directory structure of Markdown files. If needed, you can edit them with Obsidian (say using the Dropbox app).
You set up all your vaults under the same folder. You 2-way sync that folder to a cloud folder- Dropbox, MEGA, sync, box- whatever. You then create a folder with the same name on another device, and then use the client for your cloud service for that platform, and then set up two way sync with that folder on the cloud.
Works great with my Android-PopOS system.
Also tried it with Android-macOS, and iOS-Windows.
Freehand[1] has been discontinued for almost two decades, and ten years ago I was still able to use it to great effect. Heck, if I wanted to use it today I probably could, thanks to Wine[2].
> however it's still got a lifespan that eventually requires the next payment.
Unless you wait so long that a competitor arises or you stop having the need. I never paid for Adobe Creative Cloud and Affinity[3] came along without subscriptions. One could also conceivably do without Microsoft Office updates so long that Open Office catches up to the needed features and surpasses it.
Note I do tend to pay for new versions of software I use. But I have no quarrel with stopping if they no longer provide adequate value, like 1Password moving to subscription pricing to collect rent on a done product yet somehow still managing to make it inferior (Electron).
I continue to disagree with the premise that “one-time purchases are a lie we tell ourselves”. If that were the case companies would have continued as they were. They move to subscriptions precisely because it removes the customer’s choice to upgrade—you either keep paying or can’t even access your past files. And they can jack up the price or remove features at any time (see LastPass).
Though I can get behind the hybrid model of Perpetual Fallback Licenses[4].
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_FreeHand
[2]: https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iI...
[3]: https://affinity.serif.com/
[4]: https://github.com/vitorgalvao/perpetual-fallback-licenses
I don't think we disagree as much as you think, I'm not arguing in favour of subscriptions. I'm simply pointing out that the majority of the companies that have avoided subscription models still have to make money and they do that by only releasing features in new versions of the software. Only supporting new platforms with new versions.
When it comes to technically competant users, there are usally alternatives that allow usage (as you suggest), but those aren't realistic for the majority of users.
Software creators must take in money to support themselves (or else work for free, as is the case with open-source). That can either be in the form of subscriptions, paid upgrades, or donations.
Given the constant onward march of technology and platforms, eventually they'll get you (or their competitor will get you), and you'll open your wallet again.