Upon using the above link, I ended up on a paywall. I hit F12 and check the creation date of all the cookies and confirm they had all been created the 19th (today, and incidentally had just woken up and turned on the computer). I refresh the website, still paywall.
I delete all cookies manually for that page, hit refresh and can read the whole article. I don't understand how this is possible.
Outside is so much better than all of those. I will 100% run in single digit temperatures with snow on the ground before I touch a treadmill. If I have to be inside it's weight lifting.
- When my kids were younger, I was always nearby during a workout.
- I can comfortably work out regardless of the season, weather, or time of day.
- I can easily take a bathroom break mid-workout.
- I can do much longer workouts without getting bored, because I can watch movies or play video games during the workout. (E.g., using an exercise bike + my own computer.) This works around motivational / persistence issues I used to have.
- I can end a workout on short notice. Contrast to a long-distance run or bikeride, where I may be far from home when something comes up.
Then you need to make an effort, because it's really not hard to understand if one has even just a bit of life experience as an adult. But it sounds like an excuse to brag about the harsh weather one runs in, and those damned kids and their video games or something. Here, I'll one-up you: I regularly ran in snow and sub-zero (Fahrenheit, bitches) temperatures when I lived in Indiana. I now live in the much milder Pacific Northwest, and I own a treadmill. 'cuz you know what? Sometimes outside isn't better than any of those, and I just need to get some miles in.
Is there a reason it upsets you that I don't like them? I have no problem making time because exercise is a priority for me. For you, it's an after thought that you need to cram into your terrible lifestyle and that's the entire problem.
In what world are you unable to do the above, but perfectly able to have this solved via electronic workout devices.
If it's an option for the exercise you want and your health and safety, sure. It's not always an option and there are some exercises (like rowing) that are't practical to do every day unless you live on or near a body of water, and even then. If the lake freezes over, good luck rowing!
> I will 100% run in single digit temperatures with snow on the ground before I touch a treadmill.
Good for you, do you want a cookie or something?
But some of these exercise machines actually come with an impressive 32inch HD screen and loud speakers built-in which you can hear over the running noise. If you stop paying hundreds of dollars per year for an iFit subscription, the only thing this giant display does is show you the time and distance on a white background.
And perhaps you'd say, "don't buy a machine with a built-in screen", I'd say the article points out people actually decided to purchase these models _specifically_ because help articles and other resources showed how to get into the Android interface. Sideloading apps was practically sold as a feature.
It sucks for those that discovered the loophole, but all good things must come to an end sometime.
Looking down at the NordicTrack screen doesn't seem ergonomic or comfortable. I don't get this article.
Edit: From 2 points to 0. And probably going to go negative LOL.
>But it sounds like an excuse to brag about the harsh weather one runs in, and those damned kids and their video games or something. Here, I'll one-up you: I regularly ran in snow and sub-zero (Fahrenheit, bitches) temperatures when I lived in Indiana.
It took one little remark about your overpriced lame electronic exercise equipment to get you all worked up. Thanks for the laugh, and letting me know how insecure you are about it.
Do they need an electronic workout device? Nah, but if you're legitimately helping someone to achieve motivation or be safer in taking care of themselves, then the product has value.
Right, but that's not really the point of the article. It's not positing a debate over whether or not people exist who would be uncomfortable curving their neck while running or walking. The article doesn't really care about that debate. It's asking whether or not people should have control of the products they buy.
Imagine there's an article about a blender that stops working without manufacturer-approved ingredients, and someone says, "well I hate all of the recipes that people are making that aren't approved and I think they taste gross, so I don't understand what this article is about." In that scenario, we understand that the blender article is about consumer rights, not recipe tips, and whether or not someone personally likes what people are doing with their products isn't really important to that conversation.
The treadmill article is about consumer rights, not ergonomics.
Just because you personally had this experience doesn't mean that everyone does.
We see it everywhere with printers, coffee makers, phones, laptops, treadmills and even cars now. Everyone knows why this is being done, simply making money on a $99 coffeemaker is not good enough anymore, we have to make that $99 plus we have to make money in perpetuity because the customer now has to subscribe to our "managed experience".
Now I understand this on some level with cheaper stuff like printers, that printer doesn't cost $20, it costs that because the company assumes you will buy the pods from them. But with a treadmill that goes for thousands it's a completely different ball game.
Were going to get to the point where one day you will hop in your car and start driving into the countryside. At a certain point your car will just shut off because "Ford has decided that this route in unsafe for your vehicle, for the best experience, please drive back to the city, on your way back, consider enabling cup holders for an improved coffee drinking experience".
The glimmer of hope on the horizon are companies like Framework and Pinephone. These companies realize that consumers are not happy with this shit and market themselves as the antithesis of these practices. I really hope these types of companies take off in the future.
---
Legally - prohibit selling physical goods that contain digital locks unless the owner is given a key. Period.
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That's all you have to do. If I own the device, I get the keys for the physical locks, and the keys for the digital locks.
I'm completely ok with manufacturers locking down computers for security, in much the same way that I appreciate that cars have door/ignition locks.
But if I own it - I get all the keys. I may never use them, but they are mine, as part of ownership.
We could call it something like the Freedom from Locks on Software Foundation, or maybe something a bit snapper.
With these treadmills, gyms can simply keep their NordicTracks locked to prevent people messing with them.
And if you buy one for yourself, you can watch Netflix.
All at the owners’ risk. Treat adults like adults. I like it.
makes me happy. Hope a lot of people can leave behind those low paid high effort jobs thanks to this 2 shitty years
I didn’t connect it to WiFi (even after unlocking) primarily because I worry about it being another data collection tool (WiFi, bt) and it has a camera/mic on it.
It doesn't provide root access or anything, just the ability to sideload apps and a few other things.
That said, I think that if we want right-to-repair/tinker I think we also have to make reasonable concessions as well. E.g. No liability for the manufacturer due to running older or non OEM versions of software/firmware. No expectation of ongoing support or updates on those older branches. Of course liability should still exist for issues that were not caused by this alternate software even if you're running it.
Are they trying to do some kind of advertising on the screen? Are just going through run of the mill security updates and there's bad communication between the customers and NordicTrack not understanding each other because of a layer of dumb bureaucracy between marketing/developers?
Business wise it makes sense. And of course if everything is not locked down then you can always scare people with hackers.
Cheaper and actually gives you what you want. Might force the vendor to allow for more customization, given a lot of people stop buying their premium range.
https://amazon.com/Arkon-TAB086-12-Tablet-Galaxy-Retail/dp/B...
Like buying a TV and mounting it on the wall in front of the treadmill? Do these people not have access to 2x4s? Why does your TV screen need to be integrated into your exercise equipment?
I think an ideal solution could be the manufacturer officially supports accessing the "privilege mode" with some sort of "release of liability". Customer must agree to this the first time they access, forfeiting warranty and ability to sue. Much like when people decide to unlock phone bootloader and root.
And to make all manufacturers willing to provide privilege mode to their products, I think either 1) the court makes clear statement of supporting this legally, or 2) having a supreme court precedence established for this, is required, otherwise some manufacturers would still fear the potential legal risk.
What happens if, when you're upgrading your new right-to-repair laptop, you leave some wires sticking out of the battery and fry yourself, and then sue the laptop maker?
Indeed, what happens when you fry yourself repairing the ur-right-to-repair device, the light fixture with a removable lightbulb?
You can invent any scenario for any machine or device that the user can repair, but it should be fairly straightforward to add language that says "if you modify the device's behavior in such a way that it harms you, that's not our fault."
To the HN community at large: how do we start clawing it back?
lol what a straight up fucking lie.
See, the issue is decades old. But somehow people keep forgetting.
That said, I still hate treadmills and prefer to run outside, but there’s a huge difference between a cheap one and a good one.
Evil Maid attacks are real, but you don't need perfect security for your household appliances.
Incidentally, I distinctly remember reading something about skippable ad on tv ( skippable if you do something adveriser wants -- like McD ad and its only skippable if you yell 'i m lovin' it').
Your idea is next level though:>
Basically - I don't expect to have companies hand me code they wrote to run the device (I happen to like it, so I tend to support companies that do), but I don't believe that's a reasonable (or particularly useful) practice when so many functions depend on external web services.
I do expect to have them legally prevented from blocking me from writing my own code to run or repair the device.
Your take is much stronger than that of the FSF. The FSF advocates for people to choose free software, and for governments to not force people to use non-free software. You say that non-free software (i.e., software for which you don't have the key) should be illegal. The FSF has never advocated for such an extreme viewpoint.
I don't think I'm saying that.
I'm saying that hardware sold to me should be usable by me without company approval. I should be able to unlock any bootloader/bios/flash that the vendor does as a part of normal repair or operation. Basically - if it has RAM, I should be able to write to it. If it has ROM the company flashes from outside the device - I should be able to flash it from outside the device.
In many cases you could simplify this to - I should have root access on any computing hardware that supports software with the concept of root access (and it's a surprisingly large amount these days)
I don't mind the company not sharing tooling or documentation. I certainly am not asking for non-binary source code. I think you should be able to sell software as a service just fine (I don't own that hardware, you do) - but I'm opposed to a company being able to intentionally sell a product that contains a cryptographic software lock that prevents the owner from later taking advantage of that hardware.
basically - I'm much softer on the requirements, but I'd prefer they be enforced.
Much like you don’t need Windows source code to install Linux, but you need to be provided the UEFI password if there is one.
If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period.
I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day, and the controls were all changed, completely. Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent.
My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products.
The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.
I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished.
The flexibility is valuable.
For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user experiences for some reason.
Gaming consoles had higher tariffs than "general purpose computers", so Sony added the ability to boot into Linux and argued - successfully - that it was a general purpose computing device and thus in the lower tariff category.
I bought a couple Hue bulbs a while back and a (somewhat) recent update to the Hue app removed the ability to control them via by watch. Completely pointless feature removal. Part of the selling point is that level of control, and yet they just removed an entire feature I frequently used. That's simply straight up removing something that I've paid for, which I don't view as any different from theft.
Anec-data: I purchased a cooking device for my parents in December and it has a single button to turn it off. The only way to use it is with an app which requires a login to the company's service. The device even has local bluetooth capabilities. You may be wondering, "What is this device supposed to do?" and the obvious answer is: "It's supposed to boil water." The real answer seems to be, "it collects usage data about customers boiling water."
This is one of the few (unrooted) smart devices I actually appreciate. You can easily configure it for a specific task (steak? chicken? brussels?), get push notifications when it's done and even turn off it's warm setting remotely if needed.
And given that most of the thing is immersed in boiling hot water, it makes sense to not put controls on the device itself.
Yeah, my watch supports setting (and syncing) the time and timezones using bluetooth. But before you can do that, you must agree to the maker's ridiculous privacy policy which includes consenting to sending them all kinds of data that has fuck all to do with setting the time on a watch. Immediately uninstalled. So that feature is dead weight to me unless/until someone reverse engineers the watch.
Even with the 'value add' of the update, I no longer play the game. Why? Because I invested in learning and mastering the game as it was when I bought it. The forced update removed all value for me, and I'm the one who made the decision to buy it.
If the product is changed significantly after purchase without my consent, then I feel I should be able to revisit my decision to purchase it. Otherwise, it's a sort of bait-and-switch scheme.
Which can be a bad thing. The Minecraft I played first and the Minecraft I played recently are two different games, and I don't like how overpacked with stuff the new version is.
Most game expansions - paid or not - follow the philosophy of "more of the same", rather than stopping somewhere between that and "less is more". Depending on the game, that can make it tedious.
Which ones are those?
I tried several alternatives in terms of smart TV (Apple TV, Google/Android TV, Fire TV), and I could not find any platform that let me use all of the apps that I needed without resorting to casting from my phone. And in some cases there was a long process to follow in order to get the device to do what I needed[1], which involved activating developer mode, sideloading apps etc.
In the end, I bought a wireless keyboard/touchpad combo and built a HTPC, reusing old components that I removed from my gaming PC after upgrading it over the years. I installed Ubuntu on it and never looked back.
[1] For example not having the home screen being made of mostly ads, or having a simple web browser installed on the device
I went with Apple TV + Plex (along with D+/NFLX/Peacock/HBO Max/Hulu/AppleTV/Prime/Cable... but I still can't find everything I want)
I am curious, why is that undesirable for you? I'm assuming there's something more than lack of individual app support for casting.
> Yeah, I completely agree. Vehicle manufacturers can't just come and change out the steering wheel and dashboard in your vehicle, for example.
We also wouldn't get games like Goat Simulator who basically set a low expectation bar in exchange for low cost, best effort game play. I'm kind of ok with more "garbage" if we also get more weird/low budget games that wouldn't exist otherwise.
Things are way different now.
I have been appalled at the way people bend over and open their wallet since I was a preteen. Nordic and all the other rent seeking shits count on people blindly using their product they way they are told to. I'm surprised Nordic isn't suing their customers yet.
On the one hand you're purchasing hardware, which you expect to own and control.
On the other, there is software that runs on a subscription model which 'coincidentally' restricts the functionality of the hardware, because they want to stop people from bypassing the sub.
The hardware effectively becomes useless if the subscription service becomes unavailable or is taken down (e.g. if the company is acquired and the new company doesn't want to support that stuff any more). It might still function mechanically, but it now has a broken appendage through no fault of your own.
I just don't think I could justify a purchase like that nos unless I could square that circle. I'm not going to pay 2k for a Peloton bike that holds itself hostage unless I pay another 40 a month.
Welcome to the Right to Repair movement!
Of course, some tech bro will say that their spoon2.0 is specially engineered for the best soup flavor …
Exclusivity always existed at weird levels, here the issue would be more about having the option to freeze/protect a product's software state to get out of the update treadmill.
That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.
For example, windows updating. There was an updating when professor gave the talk in class. Windows updating popped out. There is no way for professor to stop the updating. He missed the chance and windows already went into blue updating screen. So, We had a break, and professor went to his office to find another computer.
Another problem is that automatically updating almost always runs silently. When I played online game and the game went laggy, I always tabbed out to see what happened with resource monitor. It is easy to find out there is whatever updating using CPU or bandwidth.
I feel updating just like legally raping my device. Oh. It is OUR device.
I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy.
For example, I have several digital cinema film cameras that I do not plan to upgrade or sell. Unfortunately they are showing their age and have some fixable faults. I have spent the last two years to reverse engineering these cameras to identify the fault. If only I had a schematic.
I don’t expect the industry or politics to change any time soon. If only a hardware company could change the status quo by enabling their customers to be enabled to have full ownership and access.
> I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy.
And on top of everything else, customers thought that they could watch whatever they wanted on their attached 32" LCD screen. Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in?
- here
- John Deer self-fix stories
- Apple store stories (and Android/Google variations)
- Several flavors of techs at places like best buy quivering in their boots at an Apple fix. Techs keep blabbering on about Apple repair policy and what they cannot do. I finally had to tell the guy: Start telling me what you can do, or I'll talk to somebody else. All I asked for was if they have a screw driver to take the bottom plate off, which I later got off Amazon.
- General issues of privacy
We gotta get back to customer satisfaction. Eventually --- not as quick as we might prefer --- customers will realize they have the stronger position and use it. Indeed, if I plunk down money for an object, my assessment counts. I do not accept some paper pusher a large-corp-America gainsaying that.
I think this is a problem which should have a mostly technical solution: If most software was updated as today and users could rollback at will, most problems would be solved. That's a better way than making updates illegal.
Of course the incentives are totally out of whack, since bundling the updates is cheaper and many UX "improvements" exist to make the company more money, at the expense of the user.
Once users are conditioned or forced to auto-update why wouldn't a profit maximizing company make changes to increase its bottom line, regardless of how it helps or hurts users?
Not great for security though…
No refunds, no apologies, just a game I'd paid 50 dollars for suddenly didn't work any more. Ultimately, still value for money given how many hours I'd ploughed into it before they broke it, but yeah, I think twice now about that kind of purchase.
Apparently the algorithm is very simple according to Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/nordictrack/comments/ozkp8v/privile...
>long responseCode = new Random((long) Integer.parseInt(iFitCode)).nextInt(999999);
It's not a perfect workaround, as it resets on the next boot, but I've seen that people are installing apps such as Taskbar which float overtop the iFit app and start on boot, allowing you to still launch your apps like Netflix etc even without God Mode enabled.
It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block this method as well. We should also be looking into how to block updates to these devices.
snark aside, I'm a bicycle guy and I really like that we have an ecosystem of bluetooth trainers and apps that all work pretty well with each other. Simulating hilly courses is actually really useful and has made me a better rider, so it's not like I'm advocating being a total luddite. While I prefer to ride outdoors in the sun, my area in Iowa is extremely flat and the only difficulty comes from the wind, and I find the new toys are a lot more fun than a dumb trainer with a sufferfest DVD. I don't really know much about the treadmill scene but I hope you guys have access to similar stuff.
The real reason they don't want people using other apps or watching third party videos is because anyone doing that is not spending money on iFit. Or, at least, not as much as they could be. NordicTrack likely discounted these treadmills to squeeze out competitors with the intention of making their money back by locking customers into iFit.
If a few users hack their treadmills, that's not going to hurt NordicTrack's bottom line. If most users are doing it because it's as easy as tapping the screen 10 times, then there's a problem. So, NordicTrack has made it harder to gain admin access. Not impossible. Just harder. More people will go back to spending money on iFit, the determined few will roll up their sleeves, and the business model will be restored.
The problem is that this business model is a bait and switch. When people pay for a treadmill they don't expect to be locked into further monthly payments to unlock its features. It's inherently dishonest, and the victim, aside from users, is the competitor who produces an honest product that's paid for entirely up front and is, hence, more expensive and less competitive.
To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a successful class-action in the US. [0]
> The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness equipment that has multiple moving parts,
Looked at Peloton, but it's about twice as much as an erg up front, has running costs each month, and what seemed to be many more points of failure (which includes the electronics). The Concept2[0] is a tank that should last me a very long time. Space is an issue (I had to shove my dining table to the side), but the workout is amazing and I have a lot of faith in the machine to last. Plus it has a pretty straightforward bluetooth connection if I want to get data out and multiple USB and ethernet ports on the very simple monitor it came with.
[0] https://www.roguefitness.com/black-concept-2-rowerg-rower-pm...
When unpacking it and setting it up, there were multiple notices everywhere: On the packaging, as a separate note in the packaging, in the manual, on the treadmill itself. Those notes all said that the treadmill is "locked" and you need "online activation" to unlock it.
I was getting very nervous, since I thought I bought something that does not need online activation.
However I think it was also Wirecutter that mentioned that you can just press the iFit button for longer than 15 seconds--or was it 30 seconds?--and it's "unlocked". I did that once and it worked ever since, never needed to do anything online, or connect it via Bluetooth, WiFi or anything else.
Reminds me of the Rigol DS1054Z 50 MHz oscilloscope, that you can trivially 'hack' into the more expensive DS1074Z 75 MHz or DS11074Z 100 MHz scope. Rigol hasn't disabled this hack, even though they can easily do it. They likely loose money if they do so, since customers move to other scopes.
Also, some Tesla updates make the experience worse instead of better (V11 update is terrible, inconsistent UI and much more menu diving). I should have disabled auto-updates, and read the forums before doing the update next time.
1. You must allow full root privileges for Electronic devices to the owners
2. You may not circumvent owners rights through leasing or other means.
3. You may not create barriers to device owners using their devices how they see fit.
Customers currently have zero recourse, because they are paying for the hardware, but the software allows the hardware functionality to be changed or removed at whim without any financial risk to the company. Credit card chargebacks may work sometimes, but only if the purchase was recent: 'smart' hardware vendors often ruin their products more than 90 days after purchase.
I don't get why companies think this kind of blanket statements are useful, when they're immediately made null by their actions.
> However, because of its equipment’s moving parts, the spokesperson says, it believes that restricting access to its operating system is important for safety.
This is such obvious BS, when the real kicker is that after you already shelled $4k, they really really want you to rack out that sweet sweet monthly subscription money and don't want any competitors on a screen that, it turns out, they can control.
Greedy manufacturers wanting to get into that monthly recurring revenue model.
After installation, it had a lock screen asking me to subscribe to start using the treadmill!
Can you imagine?
I paid for the treadmill, and you're telling me I can't even walk on it without paying you again?
So what did my $650 pay for?!?
If I can't use a device's most basic function without paying an additional subscription, then can Amazon label the button "Buy Now"?
What exactly did I "Buy" if it's a paperweight without an additional subscription?
Nowhere did the product page say that having a subscription is a pre-req to use this device: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0193V3DJ6
Thankfully, the company Amazon hired to setup the treadmill found the trick to bypass that screen.
But now, after hearing about this update, I'm afraid they will lock my treadmill again.
I just use my treadmill to walk on it.
I don't need any apps.
Left to their own devices, these companies will find a way to charge us to breathe.
So happy I'm not looking to any human governments to fix this nonsense.
As a total aside, I bought a treadmill last year and turned it into a walking desk as part of my WFH setup. I wasn't sure how much I would use it, but holy cow I love it!
> TO GET AROUND THIS SCAM, hold down the iFit logo on the treadmill for 30 seconds and your treadmill will work.
Admittedly, it sucks if you need to do this every time. But it's Amazon, so return?
[0] 8pts/1 comment
[1] 15pts/1 comment
[2] 5pts/0 comments
Had this been just some kind of open secret “hack” then buyers really should expect this.
Remember: when you buy a gadget with a screen and associated “services” like video subscriptions you aren’t just buying a lump of tech. Your price is set after careful weighing of how much customers will consume the subscription services. If the add on service is provided by a third party it’s even worse: your products’ ability to deliver something other than their service is probably a breach of contract.
My guess: the treadmill makers didn’t mind people watching Netflix on their gadget. Their partners on content though has given them deals on the premise that everyone who didn’t buy a subscription should have a feeling that they wasted $4k on an empty screen. So when they hear a number of users are watching Netflix, they get angry. Treadmill makers must block the god mode.
The sad thing here is obviously that the idea of making a good open product without strings attached or subscriptions seems like an impossibility these days.
Apparently there's a demand for well designed hardware that runs generic software.
On the box, it mentioned "one-year iFit membership included (then says wifi and registration required for ifit)"
I didn't want to use iFit, I just wanted to use the treadmill.
However -
You can't use the treadmill without connecting it to wifi, except for "manual mode". ZERO workouts. This involves dark patterns for setting up your treadmill and avoiding a wifi connection. then you can select manual mode - which can ONLY set the speed or incline manually.
Oh yeah, this treadmill has an embedded camera and microphone.
The description is a dark pattern, the UI is a dark pattern. pro-form has a horrible reputation from my direct experience.
so I use it in manual mode. I don't use the 10.1" touchscreen except to start it moving.
I suggest folks who want a treadmill just go to somewhere like Dick's and look at the treadmills and buy one after checking out the UI in person.
It's disappointing, too, because we're quite satisfied with our NT rowing machine, which was purchased right before the "big screen" models, and we would otherwise recommend it. But now you can't buy the one with the cheap LCD display like we have and just bring your own screen, you have to get proprietary screen models now. So I don't recommend their rowing machines anymore, either.
After much research, we bought a treadmill from Horizon fitness[0]. We've been nothing but happy with it, which is their top-of-the-line 7.8. It has BT for music to play over the built-in speakers, and it works fine with Zwift and even the iFit subscription that NordicTrack pushes (it just won't auto-control the treadmill speed/incline, which is a-okay by me). BT streams your data to Zwift, et. al., including speed/incline/HR. It has a built-in stand for your tablet, though anyone on HN ought to be able to rig some cheap 27" 4k monitor in there somehow (we use a wall-mount for the rowing machine that swivels for general purpose use). The spouse and I have used it with Zwift, iFit, and Apple Fitness+, though Zwift is the only one that cares about data from the BT stream. As running goes I used to be fast, but now I'm just old and still faster than most, and it does everything I need for dark, rainy PNW days. I use it for tempo and intervals on occasion as well, and the one-button presets for interval/recovery are nice so when I'm gasping for breath I just need to be able to push the recovery button.
Anyway, no association whatsoever with Horizon, just a very satisfied customer.
Hardware vendor lock-in subscriptions may seem to the corporate world like a big win on paper, but how many customers are they losing who are willing to pay for a very premium product that they get full control over? (looking at you peloton)
The only thing in my house that gets access to the internet are my computers and phone. Nothing else. If I turn it on and it complains about no internet - it gets returned as defective.
I have a car charger (Juice Box) that have a smart app to control it. Nope not for me. Last thing I want is a hacked device fucking with my car's charging.
That is why I call those devices 'dumb' devices (reminds me of a SciFi book where the AI helpers are called "artifically stupids"). Smart devices are local, no auto-updates, working with no issue in the event of an outage.
I have many smart devices, all that would stop working in the event of an internet outage, would be the voice interface.
"Dumb devices" is already an actual term, already used to refer to non-smart devices, so you are confusing anyone that has not learnt your custom vocabulary.
What about your other devices?
Overreacting aside, control schemes can be customized again in 1.4.
This is much more a question of relying on "off-label" feature / bugs in a product, which will always be an issue. The problem here is that the advertised experience was "you can only use our content" and that should have been enough to scare off potential buyers from considering it as an option.
Maaaybe.
The public statement from them sounds like it was legal whining about liability issues, and if that's actually true (which, well) then if it has to be sufficiently intentional on your part that may be sufficient for them to leave well alone.
Certainly worth preparing for that not being the case though.
I actually don't get the point of getting a 4000 treadmill rather than one that's half the price and an ipad
But really, my understanding is that these fancier treadmills map incline/speed/whatever data to the video file to make it “more realistic”. I think there may even be a sort of MMO/live ghost feature?
Personally I think I’d rather just have music I like and work out at a pace that’s comfortable for me, but to each their own I suppose.
A treadmill to me is just so boring and doesn't feel right compared to actually moving.
Walking outside when it is 10 degrees out with an audio book is still a better experience to me than a treadmill.
My smart rower consists of a C2 Model D sitting in front of an old-school panasonic plasma TV in a spare/theater room. Both components are over 10 years old by now and neither show the slightest signs of giving up the ghost. That TV doesn't even know how to talk to the internet, and I lost the USB cable for the PM4, so everything is effectively off-grid.
If you're into running on a treadmill, this looks like a very sweet setup. It has a huge touch screen that's just in the right spot, you can easily reach it while running, and it has gimmicks like automatic adjustment of inclination.
It's not cheap, but it looks like really nice hardware. I totally understand why some people would want something like that, especially if you can install generic Android apps on it!
The accessory part is also pretty neat though. I use a low end exercise bike that came with a snap-on plastic tablet holder. It works pretty well but it got me thinking about hacking the thing. I was finally able to mount a scanner radio, a ham radio, exercise bands, and my phone along with the tablet. Then my kids decided to take it off my hands for a while...I think Dad looked a little too motivated.
Thanks for the idea. I might get some kind of tablet so I can watch things without moving my (cheap) stationary bike in front of the living room TV.
My current WFH setup includes a Manfrotto 244N magic arm attached with a RAM mount to a Rokform RAM ball that very securely attaches to my Rokform iPhone case. It's clamped to my desk with a Manfrotto 035 SuperClamp. The RAM adapter is P/N RAP-B-366U and the double swivel on the RAM side is a RAP-B-201U . The Rokform part is "Universal Ball Adapter Phone Mount" SKU: 337101
RAM also makes a great iPad "X-Grip" holder, along with tons of different mounts for different situations, especially vehicles and things like exercise bikes (e.g. look for stuff like a "RAM® Double U-Bolt Ball Base for 1" - 1.25" Rails" or indeed their actual handlebar mounts). These are sturdy, pro-level mounts, not the cheap disposable junk from no-name brands on Amazon.
For my Zwift stationary bike setup that I use my old road bike on, I just use a $15 Niteize Handleband to attach my phone plus a Vornado 783DC made-in-USA DC brushless fan to keep the sweat levels low.
Another couple brands worth checking out would be Joby's stuff (I have an old GorillaPod DSLR that holds my webcam these days) and "The Joy Factory" who make pro-level iPad clamps / stands.
If it's the former, then they should keep god mode for treadmill service operations inaccessible but also allow loading apps like Netflix and Hulu. I'd wager that streaming apps are what most of the people using god mode want.
For example suppose the UI of a treadmill has a "Last 5 workout programs used" section on the front page of the UI to allow the user to select with one tap a recent program. An update replace that with a "recents..." button which takes you to a new screen that shows the last 10 programs used.
Is no longer providing one tap access to the most recent 5 programs removal of functionality? Or is the feature just that it has a way to recall recent programs so as long as there still is a way to do that, even if more convoluted, it does not count as a feature removal?
How about functionality that was not in the device when it was purchased but was added by an update? If the law does apply to that, then in effect the manufacturer will be locked into only ever adding functionality. After a few updates the UI is probably going to be a total mess.
If the law only applies to features present at purchase, then manufactures will just ship bare bones devices that only implement what is necessary to make the claims on the box and in their advertisements not false. Then the first update will add a ton of stuff to make it more than bare bones.
After a few messes the UI teams will figure out that you have to advertise and implement features in a way that doesn't interfere with user's habit. E.g. has a start screen where you may pin "last 5 workout programs", "recents...", any menu item, and a button to access other functions at top right.
However, we still need to tackle the subscription issue, I.e. That manufacturers can hide behind "you didn't renew the subscription for this printer/treadmill so now we brick it". Any ideas?
Like most of things in life, the answer is very rarely a new myopic and ill-conceived law added to the thick stack of existing incomprehensible legislation.
It doesn't. It means that functionality cannot be changed in a degrading way, but upgrading and non-conflicting security updates are still allowed.
For a customer, money upfront and money over time is the same (adjusting for the interest rate). They don't need just a dead brick, whatever it costs in production. When your saas stops having a feature, you stop paying. This is no different, except that I'd vote for a law which amortized the upfront cost to the real usage time. E.g. I bought a treadmill with 2-year warranty for $4000 and it stopped doing a claimed feature after a year (iow, became broken from my perspective). I either receive a service which returns the feature, or get $2000 back + 20% fine for inconvenience.
The way class action is done in the US it only makes sense for the law firms.
I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case I get exactly zero...
Consumers who don't want products to have features disappear. The main thing class action suites accomplish is punishing the offender so that potential offenders in the future think twice.
I was pleasantly surprised when I got around $250 CAD from a Lenovo class action suit. I bought one of their consumer laptops that had a piece of crapware on it. It was big news when it happened. Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions that I sign up for.
>I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system
I disagree with the premise that it's unethical to use a product I purchase and own from a for-profit company for a use that turned out not to be profitable for it. Note that it wasn't much of a hack; Sony sold consoles with the option to install another operating system from its menu [0].
Since the move was so unprofitable to it, Sony should not have offered the option to users in the first place. But since it happened, executives at Sony then just decided that it made business sense for Sony to disable the option in a firmware update.
I just don't understand the framing where it's as if Sony did a favor for its customers who then "took advantage," when Sony just miscalculated a business policy to serve its own self-interest.
[0] https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/sony-settles-over-insta...
Sony's removal of OtherOS wasn't just deceptive and an abuse of customers' trust, it was conspiracy to commit customs and tax fraud.
Also, while I bought my PS3 to learn parallel programming, I found that it wasn't that great for it. The CBE was really unintuitive, there was only framebuffer access to the GPU-RSX chipset, and with just 256MB RAM, $600 would have been better put towards a dual core CPU and any discrete GPU if you wanted a functional Linux computer.
[0] https://www.concept2.com/service/software/software-developme...
It's amazing to me just how (relatively) cheap the Concept2 is. Solid, well made, and reliable.
It is almost inconceivable that they would know enough to use good cryptography but not know that they needed long keys, so a lot of people believe they intended for it to be easy to hack.
One theory I've heard that makes sense is that this is for price discrimination. Your hobbyist user, buying a scope to figure out what is going wrong when they try to talk to their humidity sensor with their Arduino, is not going to pay an extra couple hundred dollars to get the protocol decoding add-on. Paying $400 for the basic scope is already near their limit. So let them have all the features--it makes the Rigol scope more attractive to those users without really costing Rigol anything.
So why not just include all the features without requiring keys to enable them?
Because people using the scope for business will pay more for them. That's because if they use a keygen program to enable them and use the scope to design or test some product, and later something goes wrong with that product and someone gets hurt and they find themselves being sued, they don't want to have to deal with how a plaintiff's attorney would try to spin that in front of jury.
Sure, it would probably not be hard for the defense to respond and explain that the scope behaves exactly the same regardless of whether the key was purchased from Rigol or came from a third party keygen program, so you might think no harm would be done by plaintiff bringing this up.
However, civil trials have time limits on how much total time each side gets to present their case and to rebut the other side's case. If defense has to take time to educate the jury on the whole Rigol key system and how keygen programs are safe, that's time they don't have for other things.
I've seen that kind of thing happen. I was a witness for a plaintiff in a suit. Early on, defense was able to find something totally minor but that looked bad if you didn't know the details of state tax and corporations bureaucracy [2]. It took them 2 minutes to use that to make us look dishonest. It took much longer the next day to explain all the details to counter that. For the rest of the trial, we were short on time and had to drop some things.
Later, when I was on the stand defense asked some questions about a particular piece of software the plaintiffs developed. They asked detailed technical questions and I answered them. Then they said "play the video of tzs's deposition from <date several months earlier>". On that video I was asked the same questions I had just been asked in court, and answered that I had not worked on that software and didn't know the answers. Defense then said "no further questions" and walked away.
I expected our lawyers to then ask about this, so we could explain why I apparently was either lying my ass off in the deposition or lying my ass off a few moments ago, but they didn't. They later told me they were short on time, and decided that having the jury think I was a liar was less of a problem than dropping the other stuff they would have to drop to deal with that.
So why the apparent discrepancy between my deposition and my later in court testimony? The deposition was 100% correct. I had not worked and that software and didn't have any deep technical knowledge of how it worked.
Later however, I was designated as the person on our side who would be answering all technical questions about our software. This would cover all our software that might come up in the case, not just what I had worked on. So I spent a considerable amount of time after that deposition studying the source for such software, and by the time of the trial I was able to answer deep technical questions concerning it. (Which defendant was fully aware of, by the way, since between my first deposition and the trial, there was a deposition where I appeared in the role of expert on all our software).
[1] Besides doubling the bandwidth, there are keys for expanding the amount of memory, adding advanced trigger options, adding protocol decoding for various useful protocols like I2C and RS-232, and I think some other features that I'm forgetting.
[2] Briefly, when you paid your taxes you got a receipt from the state revenue department. You were supposed to file a copy of that receipt with the state corporations office. Someone failed to do that. If one then queried the corporations office we were listed as having not paid our taxes.
If it was just about the money, they should have e.g. have pop-up ads cover the screen only for non-subscribers, such that people aren't inclined to buy the device, not subscribe to the ifit content, and watch youtube instructors or whatever.
The safety argument isn't so much an argument as it is a trigger word to elicit a response in people.
I actually walked down to the basement to test this - even when closing the iFit app while in God Mode, the physical controls on the treadmill including speed, incline, the stop button and the magnetic safety key, continue to work as designed. If you close the app then you can't see your current speed, but you can still stop the machine.
That being said, I haven't dug into how the iFit app sends commands or retrieve data from the treadmill's controller. It seems possible that a "rogue" app could somehow interfere with this communication or send its own set of commands to throw you off the machine, but feels very unlikely. Plus, the tablet on my treadmill is running Android 7. I'd be much more afraid of remote exploits on the embedded browser on this ancient OS than someone with physical access loading a malicious app.
This screenshot shows the home screen in Google TV and gives you an idea of what I'm talking about https://phandroid.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Chromecast-...
And this screenshot is the home screen in Fire TV: https://cdn.mobilesyrup.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Firet...
...which is still true today. It's common that large titles take 4+ years in development if they're not built on an existing game's engine and actually release in a finished state. Activision was able to release a new CoD every year because they cycled through 3 studios of which each had 3 years time for a game that's mostly a mod of the previous one with slight improvements to the underlying tech. And even then it's now almost expected that it'll take another 3+ months to get in a state that the game was meant to be released in.
> only cover a thousandth of the ground current games cover
That may be true if you go back to the Atari era, but even ~30 years old RPGs can still hold up well in terms of content. It's great that now we don't always need publishers to create & ship games and can release updates online, but that's no excuse to sell incomplete products.
But calling them smart is also confusing when most of them aren’t, with the "smart" part being on a remote server.
You can correctly accuse companies of a lot of things, but decoupling the UX really is a very hard problem.
No offense, but that sounds insanely complicated for putting an iPad on a stand in front of a threadmill. If it was me I wouldn't even want to know what a RAM adaptor is, I would just want to buy a tripod with a clamp for an iPad.
Your area requires lawyers to solicit class members to sign up for class actions? Lucky! Around here you'll just be grouped into the class action without asking for consent. If you're lucky they'll mail you a notice about the suit on a postcard and let you "opt out" by locating a non-editable PDF of a form buried somewhere on their site, printing it & filling it in by hand, and sending it to their headquarters by certified mail at your own expense. (If you're less lucky you get to write up your own free-form opt-out letter and hope it meets their standards.) If you don't do this then you lose the ability to sue as an individual, or to refrain from being (ab)used to bully the defendant (and enrich the lawyers) in the event that you don't agree with the basis for the suit.
Still hard to prove your case, but no company will take the risk because they could have thousands of customers ready to prove they have been abused.
Did you know that before The Phantom Menace, then-20-year-old Star Wars would compete with new movies at rental shops? I personally believe that this is why Star Wars was "updated": it was too resilient to being replaced. The rental place didn't need to buy so many new copies of new movies when they could keep making money on old Star Wars. So the studios needed a way to make Star Wars less appealing.
AirPods can be used with any phone just fine.
Engineering work has been done to make them to integrate deeply into Apple's OSes, but you can definitely use them on any phone.
If we’re speaking wireless accessories I would have gone with the watch.
The CD also had a folder named "updates and patches" where you could find installers for the latest bug fixes of the most popular MacOS software.
CDs bundled with monthly magazines was a valid conduit for getting patches to users at the time.
(Cue next rant about class-action settlements. To make me whole, Sony would have needed to give me a full refund (with interest) or restore Linux compatibility.)
Just serves to remind that whenever we talk of governments protecting property rights, it's always worth clarifying whose rights they are actually protecting, and who is SOL.
I don't endorse the argument -logically- at all, but if it's "legal being (justifiably) paranoid" then while as I said preparing for that not being it is still worthwhile, the extent to which they'll chase down workarounds may have limits nonetheless.
Another aspect is the fact that smart TV apps are sometimes not as good as their desktop counterparts. For example the YouTube app on most smart TV platforms does not support viewing show notes or comments. So every time the person in the video says "link in the notes below"... you are missing out on that link. Another example: I like watching martial arts, both the UFC web app and the FloGrappling web app have additional features that are not found in their smart-tv-app counterparts.
Another big one for me, is the fact that in a desktop environment I have better multitasking and I can use browser tabs. For example if I find a Youtube channel I'm interested in, and I see a couple videos that I would like to watch, I just open them in a new tab. On a smart TV you would have to add them to watch later, then go to your library and find them, it's just not as immediate.
Another point is gaming, I am recycling old computer parts that I removed from my gaming PC when doing upgrades, these are relatively old parts but still pretty good, so you can run triple-A desktop games with pretty decent quality, whereas the type of games available for download on smart TVs are mostly just ports of mobile games. I also installed RetroPie which is quite fun!
Then there is hardware upgradeability. Recently I was thinking to add a faster CPU, and then the CPU that is now in the HTPC will go into my NAS since the one I have in the NAS is quite slow. You can't do any of that with a smart TV dongle, all the parts are soldered to the main board :-)
One more thing I like is that it's easier to watch content using alternative clients, for example I watch YouTube videos using the FreeTube app, on Smart TV platforms you might be able to find some alternative clients but the choice is more limited.
EDIT - rephrased some parts as they were not clear
That’s fair, if that’s what you want and if that works for you.
For most users however that would make the TV impossible to use with a regular, simple remote and thus be a major downgrade in user experience.
Basically what it seems like (to me at least) is that people who buy “smart” devices don’t want them to be smart in terms of having advanced capabilities. Rather they want the devices to be smart enough to do the right things in a simplified UI, allowing the user to get the same things done, but with less effort.
Basically smart devices are smart to allow the user to be lazy, dumb or both ;)
Yeah another way to say it is that I want my smart devices to be general computing devices. For example I've build my own NAS instead of getting something like a Synology or a WD NAS, I'm in the process of building a router/firewall using OPNsense etc.
I spend more in the short term but less in the long term due to the ability to reuse old parts etc.
> Basically smart devices are smart to allow the user to be lazy, dumb or both ;)
ahah yeah I see your point.
Updates can be issued, but it increasingly means that things are released in a state where updates NEED to be issued
What seems to happen is people want the game as soon as possible but also complain when it isn't perfect on release but overall they enjoy playing it sooner more than they are bothered by its lack of polish.
And if you have VR, Pavlov has been the most fun I have ever had gaming. It looks like a CSGO clone on the surface but it becomes the most absurd/surreal experience ever with custom maps. It's almost like playing laser tag in one of those optical illusion room of mirrors type attractions.
Because unless the screen displays what you want it to, it's useless?
> But Howard, and many other NordicTrack owners, weren’t drawn to the hardware by iFit’s videos. They were drawn in by how easy the fitness machines were to hack.
> To get into his X32i, all Howard needed to do was tap the touchscreen 10 times, wait seven seconds, then tap 10 more times. Doing so unlocked the machine—letting Howard into the underlying Android operating system.
Personally, I would never purchase a device with a screen that intentionally locked me out like this.
Disable (Uncheck) automatic updates from [Settings] > [System] > [Automatic Downloads]
You'll have to uninstall the game and reinstall it from your hard copy to get the original version of the game you remember.
However, if you'd bought the digital version, you'd be out of luck.
When the devs have to keep up with the system updates etc. there is expectation that they keep working on software. I am sure they would love to just push something that would work forever.
So much software that i bought stopped working. Even when you have "lifetime" license - eventually world moves on and you are without hardware to run the software.
I am not saying it's right but i am also not sure how it can be solved.
Hardware evolution isn't a big deal, actually, so long as you can emulate the old on the new. For example, all the old DOS games can still be made to work thanks to DOSBox and PCem. In principle, the same applies to software, except that it evolves too fast for such emulation layers to keep up.
Not having read the TOS of the platform (or even ever having used it), I'll hazard a guess this isn't quite legally true.
You are right in that there probably is a gotcha, you agreed clause in the text that is displayed after I have purchased the item. I also think the idea that is legally binding a farce.
Imagine how popular buying things would be if people actually had to read those agreements.
If you ever wondered why your elders are such sticks in the mud on this sort of thing, that is exactly why. Put a contract in front of most people and off they run for the hills.
This is why the click through EULA was the best thing to ever happen to the legal profession.
My tacx trainer was only $300 or so when I bought it, which was comparable to non-bluetooth trainers. That said, I already owned a fancy roadbike to use with it, which is not a negligible cost.
A power tap block is $3. :)
Edit: /s obviously. I was responding to a joke with a joke.
We have disney+, and my TV apparently thinks we're not subscribed. My phone does, though, and I can cast from that. Yes, we can watch Encanto again, but it's very jarring when the normal interactions with the TV don't work.
But when you cast from an application with integrated chromecast support (as e.g. Netflix) then the phone is free to use as you wish while the kids are watching. I do this all the time. I start the cast, then use my normal TV remote to pause, for volume control etc. You don't need the actual app for most things and you can use the phone/tablet for other things (I have to find translations for my wife, for example, while watching).
[1] http://www.baaqii.com/promanage/productimage/Ewhole/A/A678-1...
One nice thing about the phone apps is that you can search for a different thing to watch _while_ currently watching something. Fast-forward/rewind also tends to be a little more intuitive with adraggable progress bar, except small-scale rewinds (1-2 minutes) of a movie is _harder_ because a few pixels is difficult to select cleanly.
I will say though that Prime is _freaking fantastic_ when streamed from my phone, better even than using the native TV interface. The Prime phone app lets you navigate _by scene_ in a show (e.g. Bosch) which my tv app won't let me do. I wish Netflix and D+ would/could copy that, specifically. I wish it didn't have spoilers in scene descriptions, but being able to say, "Hey go back to the start of the council of Elrond" is really nice, rather than having to use +/- 30 second increments.
Google in particular is the worst offender here because they actually had Miracast in Android all the way up to Nexus 4 - and then deliberately removed it! Other vendors of Android devices generally reinstate it in their distros, although I do wonder how long that is going to last (probably right until Google makes not supporting it a condition of getting Google Play certified).
Casting from a phone is a terrible experience. I want to sit down on the couch, mash some remote buttons and watch something. I don't want to find a phone to cast from. Whose phone would we use? Mine, my wifes, my relatives who are over? What if they want to change the program? Now they are figuring out all the casting business? No, pick up the remote and use it like normal.
Why is it undesirable having to go find my phone? Because I'm relaxing on the couch I guess?
The real danger is that eventually the app goes away due to not being maintained. Hopefully they release the API spec before then, but my specific device has already been reverse engineered at least.
I'm reminded of the Wemo netcams my parents owned, which updated to remove a previous ability connect directly to the video stream in favor of pay-only cloud software, and the proceeded to cease support for that, leaving my parents with two completely useless bricks.
And whether a device has controls doesn't matter with regards to hot water contact. It has to be properly sealed either way and capacitive buttons work fine for this (not worse than the low-quality buttons they'd use otherwise). The main feature you get with Bluetooth is another point of failure thanks to connection problems, at least that's my average experience with BT.
Making an immersion circulator app-only is likely a BOM-reducing measure, which is fine (given that active time is probably at most a few minutes like twice a day). And you can get smaller form factors too with app-only control (e.g. Ember Mug).
I like it, but now leave it pre-set to 135°F lest I set it elsewhere and then lose the ability to adjust it, so I think they dropped the ball on the design.
I hope we do see phone/OS/store ecosystems that focus on longterm stability of features and UI. Keep devices repairable by end users, supply parts for the whole of the phone's lifespan.
Fair phone is trying to do this for phone hardware, and Framework is doing similar for laptops. We still need OS and store ecosystems.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Undocu...
The remedy for that is to encrypt the communication
The remedy for that is to MITM the server connection
The remedy for that is HSTS...
It's a cat a mouse game, the better solution for society (imo) is to have specific rights enshrined by law to allow for a qualified 3rd parties to access a system's internals.
TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates.
Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure.
IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same with phones.
And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want.
TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day!
Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made. So I decided against getting it even though I would probably very much enjoy playing it. Don't buy games like that. Buy games like Factorio or some GoG stuff (the ones that actually do work on your current Windows OS if that's what you use ... ;)) and do not buy into the GoG Galaxy thing. Get the installers. Otherwise that's like falling for Steam or Xbox Live or whatever the "Windows Live" BS is called nowadays.
Tablets and Phones: Use them for what they're good for: Making phone calls and browsing the web on the go. Apps are a curse, I avoid installing them as much as possible. Some exceptions prove the rule, like a free GPS tracker app for hiking created by a single guy. UI looks like it's out of the 90s but works for my use case. Found it because the other app I used started requiring a login even for the free part of the app. I refuse to bow to such things.
I've looked into this, but this option is really not great, either:
- Large Monitors are unavailable or (if you use business monitors) a lot more expensive and usually don't have latest panel tech.
- You'll loose surround sound and also 4K on most platforms
- The integration is usually worse (you'll have to start more devices, if you're lucky CEC decides to work)
- Good luck with HDR
I personally settled for a SmartTV behind a PiHole-equivalent, but an Apple TV or an Android TV combined with an offline smart TV are good contenders, too. Unfortunately, there's really no silver bullet right now.
Then get it from *ahem* elsewhere, you've paid for access to that content in that quality, if they can't provide that… Maybe if enough do that they'll fix the problem, so they can start tracking your use of the content again when you return to consuming it their way.
I simply bought a non-smart TV. I just made sure it had a number of HDMI ports. I plug my various media sources into the HDMI ports.
A "smart" TV must be the most un-smart TV possible - you're stuck with whatever's there. The "smart" part (say, a Pi or a Chromecast or both) must be detached from the display device (the TV), not a part of it.
"smart" TVs remind me of back when I bought a webcam with integrated Skype, for my old parents. It did make it easy for them to skype with their grandchildren, using the TV. But of course Skype, or MS at the time, plugged the pull on the version of Skype used by the webcam and then it became a brick. Never again.
> Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made.
We've entered a sad dystopia when the manufacturer is the leading security threat to the integrity of my personal devices.
Exactly. Companies that actually care about security don't bundle those updates with major breaking UX changes.
However, around the same time, my PC input began to blank out for a second at a time at random intervals which was very irritating. On a lark I performed a factory reset and didn't set up my wifi credentials, and it hasnt misbehaved since.
If the law needs me as an individual consumer to procure my own team of lawyers to go up against a multinational every time I buy a new TV, then that law might as well not exist.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/if-you-used-to-r...
Litigation is expensive, pretty much the only way it can be done in the US is as a class action where the number of people ripped off is large.
What about devices that are connected to the internet and need security patches?
As a software engineer can you imagine supporting every version of your software you ever released? Sounds like a nighmare.
This would teach us developers to do better. Like don't push random updates that break shit. If your product is not filled with security issues you should be able to backport a fix for that giant secuiry bug you found, you can ignore the crashes. Anyway this big companies can afford to pay you to backport some fixes . It is not like some volunteer is forced to backport fixes in his free time.
Perhaps we (developers) need to get better at this. We care so much about pushing features and being agile and all, but when it comes to supporting old releases: "umm, no. It's a nightmare".
I mean, we're actually talking about "buying" games here. That's how insidious these things are. The few people who read this fine print will know that we're not really "buying" anything, we're being offered extremely limited licenses to the content. Can you blame consumers who fall prey to corporate deception? Marketing leads them to believe they're "buying" stuff. It's not really their fault when they become victims of corporate bullshit like remote content deletion. Nobody should have to consult lawyers before consuming.
Let's summarize all company contracts in an easy to understand manner:
1. We can do whatever we want.
2. You can do nothing we don't want.
3. We own everything.
4. We guarantee nothing.
5. You have no rights.
That does it. That's literally what all these little contracts boil down to. Every single time I read one it's just the above 5 points over and over in mind numbing legal language.
Where I live many of these contracts are actually in violation of consumer protection law. I've had actual lawyers tell me I can safely ignore many clauses because they are clearly abusive and judges would strike them down in court. Particularly unacceptable are those that make me give up my rights. Appatently that's a thing in the US, you can just sign away rights such as reverse engineering or even the ability to take companies to court by "agreeing" not to exercise them.
People just don't care until they personally get a kick in their face. We all know that and companies bet on it.
"Read the contract because it is likely a bad idea and you shouldn't do it."
Granted, in the car dealership scenario you have the opportunity to negotiate. That is not the case here.
Of course, that'll then get attacked via the legal system for violating DRM.. ugh
Reference: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/201762...
I consider my time for a day off work, travel to court, preparation, irritation, etc more than the value of the TV, and they probably wouldn't pay me damages for those things.
The point is that I shouldn't have to do that as an individual for every purchase.
We need a blanket rule that they can't remotely modify purchased items in a way that cannot be rolled-back by the consumer to the functionality at the time of purchase.
An Nvidia shield handles all the streaming, kodi handles local files etc, all the media that I could possibly need.
4k is handled by default out of the box.
Surround sound is handled by an AV receiver. (Atmos surround is available if I wish to further upgrade the 7.1 speakers).
It can be done. Granted, it’s not cheap and installing all these devices can be painful, but still.
Since all the HDMI connections are via a (slightly older, non-connected) AV receiver, its almost impossible for this to affect my setup. But it's indeed a sleazy move by those setting the HDMI standards.
I'm getting so tired of these constant battles with the devices I paid for.
- Large Monitors are unavailable or (if you use business monitors) a lot more expensive and usually don't have latest panel tech.
- You'll loose surround sound and also 4K on most platforms
- The integration is usually worse (you'll have to start more devices, if you're lucky CEC decides to work)
- Good luck with HDR
offline smart TV are good contenders, too
Personally I'm on a 32" regular HD IPS panel monitor. Given the size of the living room and how far away the sofa is, this is totally adequate (I upgraded from my >>>10 year old 4:3 "I don't even remember the size of it" monitor when it finally broke!). Surround sound depends on the source. If it's Netflix the upmix is "good enough" for most of what the kids wanna watch and then there's other material too where proper AC3 is available. Most of the times I can't really have the bass turned up anyway so as not to wake the kids :P
I think it's prudent not to even buy a Smart TV and use it in "dumb mode". If we do this, we are not voting with our wallet. I'm not sure how likely we would be to have a large enough effect numbers wise but one can try. If we don't try, we've already lost.
But anyway, ever since content consumption became prominent on mobile smart devices (smartphones, tablets), this battle is already lost - the TVs are merely playing catch-up with the rest of the industry.
I'm in Australia. Although we're covered by what I consider to be pretty good consumer guarantees, you can still only demand a refund in the case of a "major problem" with the product.
I don't think simply being unhappy with it connecting outside would qualify, although IMO it should.
https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/products-and-services/refund...
What are the rules on returning stuff where you are?
Can you just buy a TV, use it for 6 months, and return it no questions asked?
If so, it sounds ripe for abuse, and surprisingly lenient especially if it's the US where I thought there were much less consumer guarantees.