https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotrophic_electrode
> In Neural Signals' implantations of six people, only one had a short lived episode of focal motor seizures and brain swelling leading to temporary weakness on the contralateral side of the body.
> That person was me, Phil Kennedy. And here I am writing this addition to the Wikipedia
(the IP has more edits like that to that article)
Someone already fixed it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Neurotrophic_elec...
https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enforcement-and-c...
Futurists and the general populace can hand-wave about humanity's glorious digital future all they want - it will not come to pass without heroes like this paving the way.
> For human subjects he would replace the sciatic nerve with a chemical cocktail known to stimulate neural growth.
Anyone know what this "chemical cocktail" is they're referring to?
edit: haters will downvote me but look it up for yourself and upvote if you agree
I would avoid commenting on the people down-voting you, that typically just makes it worse.
[1] - https://www.neomed-clinic.com/the-best-nerve-growth-factor-s...
See science: https://nootritious.com/nootropics/lions-mane/
Anyone who things an abled person wants a cell phone in their head probably already lost their mind in the colloquial sense long ago.
It seems like he's doing amazing work that will really help a lot of people though. But being a cyborg doesn't sound all that great.
Imagine what would the repercussions for the field be if the surgery went a little worse since it seems so badly planned from the outset? More restrictive regulation against the practice? All major funding either pulled outright or forever tainted with the stigma arising from this endeavor ?
I don't know what it is about HN that this forum praises seemingly stupid pursuits such as a neurosurgeon choosing to operate on himself without (a) Validating the approach better and (b) Having a backup plan in case things went bad (No person in the US to come and care for him etc) and (c) Using antiquated electronics in the eyes of the very experts he was entrusting with the operation.
To Kennedy, he had no other options.
Interesting to ponder where that dividing line resides.
this guy will go down in history as one of the few that paved the way for humanity to evolve beyond the horribly fragile flesh-and-meat sacks that we are today.
Here is something for the impatient.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2015/11/09/247535/to-study-...
I think authors rely on this too much as a crutch. It can work if the hook makes the reader actually wildly curious as to how that situation came about. But otherwise it comes across as like a turgid interruption.
I also dislike it in television. It's one of JJ Abrams' favorite techniques. Open with some crazy scenario, and then "two weeks previous" comes up on the title screen. He did it all the time in Alias. Although I think it worked in Mission Impossible III.
Or could anyone here just post a tldr summary perchance?
Thanks.
[1]: https://www.wired.com./2016/01/phil-kennedy-mind-control-com...
He had some brain swelling shortly after the surgery. Thats it.
Still great to have posted it, amazing guy
While I am glad that there was minimal harm done here, I am perplexed as to why a Neurosurgeon would risk their decades of training and career for such a high-risk low reward surgery. This could have been a terrible ending.
We should be weary about tampering with things we do not completely comprehend.
There's an interesting history of it in a book called Who Goes First?
https://www.amazon.com/Who-Goes-First-Lawrence-Altman/dp/052...
If you like this sort of thing check out the 'savedyouaclick' subreddit for more!
“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues.”
Gell-Mann Amnesia
"""
At first the procedure that Kennedy hired Cervantes to
perform—the implantation of a set of glass-and-gold-wire
electrodes beneath the surface of his own brain—seemed to go
quite well. There wasn’t much bleeding during the surgery. But
his recovery was fraught with problems. Two days in, Kennedy was
sitting on his bed when, all of a sudden, his jaw began to grind
and chatter, and one of his hands began to shake. Powton worried
that the seizure would break Kennedy’s teeth.
His language problems persisted as well. “He wasn’t making
sense anymore,” Powton says. “He kept apologizing, ‘Sorry,
sorry,’ because he couldn’t say anything else.” Kennedy
could still utter syllables and a few scattered words, but he
seemed to have lost the glue that bound them into phrases and
sentences. When Kennedy grabbed a pen and tried to write a
message, it came out as random letters scrawled on a page.
At first Powton had been impressed by what he called Kennedy’s
Indiana Jones approach to science: tromping off to Belize,
breaking the standard rules of research, gambling with his own
mind. Yet now here he was, apparently locked in. “I thought we
had damaged him for life,” Powton says. “I was like, what have
we done?”
"""
"""
Kennedy’s recovery had continued to go poorly: The more effort
he put into talking, the more he seemed to get locked up. And no
one from the US, it became clear, was coming to take the doctor
off Powton and Cervantes’ hands.
"""
From that description: - Motor control impairment
- Extreme language impairment to the point that subject is unable to write coherently
- Literal fucking seizures
- Possible prefrontal damage
While it was just "postoperative brain swelling" and the brain "can heal". It's unlikely that he made a completely full recovery, indeed later in the article it is alluded that he has permanent motor damage: """
When I meet Kennedy there one day in May 2015, [...] Kennedy says
with a slight Irish accent [...] “The retractor pulled on a
branch of the nerve that went to my temporalis muscle. I can’t
lift this eyebrow.” Indeed, I notice that the operation has left
his handsome face with an asymmetric droop.
"""
And likely, prefrontal damage from his inability to refrain from commenting the first thing on his mind[0]: """
Kennedy said when we first started watching the video. But now he
deviates from our discussion about evolution to bark orders at the
screen, like a sports fan in front of a TV. “No, don’t do
that, don’t lift it up,” Kennedy says to the pair of hands
operating on his brain. “It shouldn’t go in at that angle,”
he explains to me before turning back to the computer. “Push it
in more than that!” he says. “OK, that’s plenty, that’s
plenty. Don’t push anymore!”
"""
The reporter later refers to his "garbled answer", indicating that he still has language formation problems, and that actually seems well-indicated from the snippets of quotes we see from him.Another thing to take note of is that Kennedy mentioned the permanent damage had occurred "when he was putting the electronics in", which implies it happened during the second operation (the first operation with the seemingly severe symptoms were for the electrodes).
No where in the article does it indicate his mind was ever close to being lost besides the headline. It even took note to say he stayed in a villa during recovery which the surgeon made daily visits to (with the implication being a hospital would have been best for around-the-clock monitoring if his well-being was truly in danger).
Also, it's against Hacker News guidelines to ask whether someone read the article or not:
'Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."'
As i said, brain swelling from the surgery. The article first gave me the impression it was because of what was implanted, ie his implant not working. Which wasnt the case, it worked and he collected his dataset with his ancient hardware till it had to be removed again.
I indeed read over the part of the sentence with the facial nerve though. His wording seemed fine though, i have met quite a few people who talk like this. People who go to Belize for brainsurgery are expected to be a bit eccentric.
He was fully prepared for a terrible ending. He weighed the risks and rewards, and thought it would be worth it.
And it was.
Another famous one was Werner Forssmann, the first doctor to perform a cardiac catheterization, who performed the operation on himself first (then walked over to the X-ray room to get a picture to prove he succeeded).
That is really fascinating! I wonder whether the lesions observed in chronic, heavy ketamine abuse are related to trophic effects.
A glance at search results sugget BNDF seems tighlty regulated, and linked to lesions in other rare conditions
(This makes me want to buy neuroscience books! Such an interesting field)
If I could get something that could measure exact interaction response times of synapses then perhaps that might be a starting point. The equipment exists but doubt I could even afford the grey-market gear nor do I have a place to put it.
One might ask why I take these molecules if I can not measure efficacy. For me it's simple. They are relatively cheap and there are enough studied benefits that even if the gains are marginal I will find that an acceptable net gain in the big picture of my overall health.
I skimmed the article. It's from 2016 so it's outdated and doesn't include comments about Elon Musk's Neuralink
Which constitutes brain trauma!
> Which wasnt the case, it worked and he collected his dataset with his ancient hardware till it had to be removed again.
Unfortunately as others have pointed out, his dataset is pretty worthless and the claims around it have been largely unsubstantiated. From your earlier post,
> And the frame of the article is aimed at clicks and keeping the reader hooked by creating the impression he had made some monumental mistake.
IMHO he had, and if you ask literally any neurosurgeon or anyone working in neuroscience I'm willing to bet that they would say the same.
The really sad part of it is that with fairly minor changes it could have been a landmark dataset IMO. Having better recording equipment, a lower noise floor environment for data collection (e.g. don't run fluorescent lights while recording), having precise timestamps integrated into the recording, better temporal separation between recording of various phrases, adding simultaneous EMG/EEG, etc would have resolved quite a few data related issues. It's a unique situation (for good reason), but bad data...
From seeing the data, I suspect the electrode placement was in a good enough location that novel things could have been done with a cleaner data source. I guess the major limiting factor is that absolutely no one would want to be involved with the project at that stage. What sort of IRB would approve any of this? Better data would answer some key questions that could generalize to lock-in patients (theoretically) and worst case it would provide a strong indicator that no significant BCI can be made for the task given the electrode placement.
Yes, i got that from your post the first time. Like i said, brainswelling from the surgery. It read to me as if the article wanted to create another picture. The author not mentioning up front that it was only the probes that got implanted left to me the impression that the speech problems were due to an error with the implant. Which it wasnt.
>Unfortunately as others have pointed out, his dataset is pretty worthless and the claims around it have been largely unsubstantiated.
One said the approach was worthless, because there exist better (less invasive and cheaper) approaches using eye movement tracking apps today. It was also as the reason given why nobody else researched into this. That wasnt however aimed at the dataset. The feedback to the dataset started at
>When Kennedy finally did present the data that he’d gathered from himself ...
Notably >By taking on the risk himself, by working alone and out-of-pocket, Kennedy managed to create a sui generis record of language in the brain, Chang says: “It’s a very precious set of data, whether or not it will ultimately hold the secret for a speech prosthetic. It’s truly an extraordinary event.”
>IMHO he had, and if you ask literally any neurosurgeon or anyone working in neuroscience I'm willing to bet that they would say the same.
He was 66 and was first left hanging waiting for a willing subject who could still talk to validate earlier results. He then couldnt afford recertification of his invention and was faced with nobody else working on this approach.
You are skipping over the fact that it worked. His lifes work and deep obsession turned out to work. He did it, what more is there to say other then good for him? Even if the dataset would turn out to be without practical implications, you can see at his pondering at the very end, whether to put an implant into the other site, that he would have regretted it deeply to have it sit there and stare at him for the rest of his life.
somebody gotta explain him Wikipedia ain't a personal blog
(Though a Wired article is even better)
That's not the reason.
Athletes do unsafe things all the time, with the blessing of their sport. Boxing is unsafe, American football is unsafe, skateboarding is unsafe, skiing is unsafe, extreme sports are unsafe, etc...
The prohibition on steroid use has more to do with fairness and ensuring a level playing field, so no athlete has an unfair advantage over another.
Such considerations are irrelevant when one's goal is not fair competition but advancement of science.
This is somewhat circular logic - it's only 'unfair' because you've defined it that way. IMO the idea that there is a level playing field is somewhat of a myth to begin with, there are plenty of other ways to gain "fair" advantage like better training and nutrition, and access to those things is clearly not equal across all competitors. I think you could probably argue the current situation is less fair than just allowing them considering how many top athletes likely use steroids anyway and just haven't been caught.
That's not to say that I think we should allow steroids in sports, just that "a level playing field" doesn't seem like much of a justification to me. I think the simpler reason is that lots of sports already have rules to make the sport safer for their athletes, and banning steroids/drugs simply falls into that same category because it has a clear risk of spiraling out of control. Yes, sports are unsafe, but they're also generally designed to not be so unsafe that competitors are dying all the time due to going to extreme lengths to try and win.
I think your take is overly zealous, if you are really worried you could make it a requirement for grants. Which it already is.
edit: Maybe for a different framing, picture it more like climbing a mountain. You do it because its there, it is that simple. All the rest (sponsorships and the like) is just ways to get funding to get you up there. You were already going to go, more funding just makes it saver. And as unhealthy as it is, i think society should not get involved further as me not dragging anyone else in with me. After all, how is this any worse then eating or drinking myself to death. Or giving myself a heart attack (to come back to professional athletes)
Recognized domain experts who are routinely published in respectable journals is one of the main exceptions.
Some relevant policy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self...
Of course people might get competitive about their careers and feel pressured to stay on top. But the discovery of one researcher should not be to the detriment of others.
If (big if, but it is the topic of the discussion at hand) self-experimentation is increasingly normalized, and through normalization attracts funding, one can imagine the competition for said funds incentivizing researchers and labs to take extreme measures to garner attention and acquire support.
Money, the same motivation that pushes athletes to extremes, is not something scientists are immune to, even if the ultimate utility of the money serves different purposes.
Yep, I think the realities of allowing such a thing are quite clear: You can't skip the rats and go straight to a human, but you could skip the rats and go straight to yourself. Having human data at an early stage would be a huge advantage for getting funding, and there would only be one way to get it.
I got some Lion's Mane capsules from Amazon (though I'm not sure how pure they are; for all I know they crushed up some whitecaps and put those in there). I started with 1/3 the recommended daily dose and started having slight headaches. That was the end of that experiment. :-(
Don't get me wrong, if you feel like it helps you then go for it, but objective claims deserve objective evidence.
Specifically, erinacines and hericenones.
If I wrote wikipedia entry about picking coconuts, it would be immediately deleted because personal experience isn't a citable source. I need to tell some other fool about what I do, have him publish it in an article, and only then am I worthy of sharing my knowledge on wikipedia.
I've seen absolute hogwash in wikipedia articles about my field (not really picking coconuts lol) but I can't correct them because I can't find an article where someone else has written about the topic.
Wikipedia's job isn't to push forward the frontiers of knowledge. It's to summarize the stuff you can look up elsewhere.
Wikipedia prioritizes verifiability over completeness. Are there downsides to that trade-off? Absolutely. But i would rather that over trusting random people on the internet to know what they are talking about.
A lot of what people complain about Wikipedia ruling out is in scope for either Wikiversity or Wikibooks; it's not a “we don't want that” issue but a “we have structure, and within that structure there is a better place for that”.
Personal experience is hogwash. Everyone is convinced their personal experience is an accurate view of how things really are, and everyone is wrong. I have no idea if the "world's best coconuts pickers first hand experience" is as laughably wrong as my first person experience of American demographics, and I have absolutely no way to find out. Wikipedia standards exist for a reason.
You're convinced that your personal experience of everyone's convictions and the veracity of such is accurate. By your reasoning, you must be wrong?
...or are you? A most ingenious paradox.
The Encyclopedia Britannica, which had articles exclusively written by experts, was also outcompeted by Wikipedia.
It's unlikely that Wikipedia is going to change its model to give experts a greater say than they already do, but it would be interesting to see if another expert-curated encyclopedia could eventually compete. Maybe if some incredibly well-funded company like Google or Apple got behind it it could work (though that reminds me of Microsoft's Encarta, which also failed).
They were competing on free vs paid. You make it sound like they were competing on experts vs non-experts.
Ah, young and halcyon days!
Wikipedia follows different standards. Not everything have to be Twitter/Facebook/Reddit/HN.
To sometimes very very mixed results (at best).
> Citation needed.
The exact policy under discussion in this sub thread (and, to a lesser extent, the other two in Wikipedia’s trio of core content policies) is exactly a statement of this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_resear...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_v...
Because people don’t really want a public wiki to publish original research, they just want to vandalize Wikipedia because of its social impact and use their claims of personal expertise as an excuse to evade Wikipedia’s existing content policies.
Wikibooks has a few things, but almost nothing seems actually complete and hardly anyone seems to work on in, compared to Wikipedia