Folding bicycle small enough to fit in hand luggage(kwigglebike.com) |
Folding bicycle small enough to fit in hand luggage(kwigglebike.com) |
For this particular one, what a unique way to mount the seat.
The stability of the ride is achieved when you relax the handlebars and the Kwiggle adapts to your movement, not vice versa. That is the whole secret.
Smaller bikes may feel less stable, however I suspect this is simply because smaller wheels will be affected by smaller road imperfections that a larger wheel would simply roll over.
[1] https://theconversation.com/how-does-a-bike-stay-upright-sur...
It may be that those trying to discredit the benefit of gyroscopic stability are looking at the first order effect of the gyro/wheels on keeping the bike upright, when in fact it is the force from the front wheel on the handlebars/steering, and the man-in-the-loop.
https://ezramagazine.cornell.edu/summer11/researchspotlight....
https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/faltrad-vs-rennrad-am-berg
This ride felt absolutey safe.
The trade-off is that it's quite big when it's folded and fairly awkward to carry. Unlike some folding bikes, it doesn't wheel when it's folded up so you have to lug around a fairly awkward metal lump when you're not riding it. And it rarely fits under seats on public transport - it can be quite awkward in places.
I've also found it fairly tricky to lock. The narrow gaps between the spokes and the very small triangle in the frame make it hard to pass a serious lock through; I constantly worry about wrecking spokes when I try to lock it up. It lives indoors most of the time so it's not a serious drawback for me but might be something to think about based on your needs.
Overall I've been happy with the good riding, luggage options, and replacement parts story. A good option if the drawbacks don't really hold you back in your day-to-day usage.
Montague
Changebike
There is also a third that looks newer and I could not find any info on but looks promising from Finland:
Fubi
https://www.amazon.com/Segway-Ninebot-White-GoKart-Bundle/dp...
They’ve experimented from time to time with hubless wheels, which allow for a lot of flexibility in passing bits of the bike through the plane of the wheel when folded, but it’s never clear how they deal with shock - potholes in particular.
Spoked wheels have partial failure modes and those are important.
I wonder too if at these small dimensions you still want to copy the Brompton model, where a flick of the elbow practically assembles or disassembles the bike. Would a design that requires both wheels to be removed and reattached be more workable? Though removing rear wheels can be complicated greatly by the drivetrain.
This makes me want to design one. Roughly, bigger front wheel, hard (no pneumatic) tyres. Suspension on the rear wheel; a low unsprung weight would make this effective.
It reduces the use case to short distances, not commute rides. But that's ok if it's small enough folded to be taken on a train/bus/taxi.
Have you used rollerblades or snowshoes? Showshoes have a very flexible binding system, and rollerblades need to be quite stiff in order to have a hope of functioning properly, and not snaping your ankle in several pieces. In order to make such a thing, you'd have to wear some sort of plastic boot, and then have some solid binding like a pin tech binding to attach the boot to the rollers.
25 km/hour is fairly fast for a regular ’upright’ bicycle, and certainly not obtained effortlessly. I don’t see that being better for this bicycle with its small wheels.
https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/home-kwiggle-vorteile
I've never ridden one so I'm not in any position to judge it, but the position sounds similar to an elliptical bike.
I don't know why you'd want to actually carry it around, but surely nobody is 'comfortable' wandering around with 10kg in one hand?!
To get on trains and buses, or to walk up a flight of stairs, ... Why would you get a folding bike if you have no need to ever carry it?
Fortunately 45 degree descents and tailwinds don't coincide that frequently.
"One thing became very clear, and every mountain biker will certainly be able to confirm this: when riding uphill on a racing bike, there is always the conflict between riding standing up, which puts more pressure on the pedals, but you have to keep lifting your weight onto the pedal, and riding sitting down"
This is simply not what riding uphill on a roadbike is, unless you are not used to that position at all. The switch between seated and standing is not done to push harder, it's done to get a bit of variation in position and muscle use. It's not a conflict, it's an opportunity.
Except for those particularly steep slopes where you need to move your center of mass forward to not literally tip over, where it's not an opportunity but the only one. That threshold is sits in the vicinity of 20% incline, depending on size and seating position. This is with a wheelbase about twice as long as the kwiggle, and with a considerably lower center of mass. The author even seems to emit that, in a way, with the suggested tweak "So if you ride the Kwiggle in the mountains, always place the saddle a bit more forward". Good luck descending afterwards if it happens to be a route where you might actually need to brake.
The difference in the climb the author was so enthusiastically describing is simply that he went up more than 10% slower on the kwiggle than on the roadbike (92 minutes instead of 81). If you have ever measured endurance efforts in that game, for example on an ergometer, you will know what a huge difference 10% means.
I mean, nice publicity stunt and it surely was a lot of fun given the weather, but if you want to do that more, get proper equipment.
Yes, Bromptons are expensive. But they ride like a bicycle, have gears, a stiff enough frame, luggage racks etc. There's very little compromise. The fastest I've done on mine is 45 kph and I've ridden 70km in a day. I carry it on and off buses and trains multiple times a day without issue.
In the past I had an A-bike[2]. It's a fun and cute little design but the wheels are absolutely tiny and has no gears. You feel like you're riding a folding contraption rather than a bicycle. The build quality was rather plasticky too. I like the idea of an A-shape with telescoping tubes. It's quite an ingenious fold.
I've also ridden (but not owned) a Pacific CarryMe[3]. The ride experience again suffers for the short wheels and no gears, but it could be useful for some. The fold still leaves you with quite a long package.
I'd love to try the Kwiggle bike. I don't think the strange seat will cause as many problems as people think, but I suspect the overall ride experience to be a bit bouncy and flexy. Maybe it's worth it for the small fold.
For a more out-there design I think the Halbrad/Half-Bike[4] could be quite nice but it never really got past the prototype stage. Under-seat steering is a bit of an adjustment too.
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-bike
Also the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space. It also fits in a standard airline luggage without any disassembly which few other folding bikes can claim.
The frame is full titanium including the locking mechanisms. It’s made in Canada and is the lowest cost complete titanium bike on the market, folding or not.
Full disclosure, I’m the owner/founder of Helix. Happy to answer any questions related to it or folding bikes in general.
If you have not already done so: you should transparently write up the lessons that you have learned and how you are going to address this for your electric launch to build up confidence. I remember your kickstarter and in retrospect continue to agree with my decision to not participate (I'm the happy owner of a Brompton that I can check in airline luggage instead).
A bit of unsolicited feedback; listing the seat post options based on rider height (regular for shorter than 6’3”, and extra long for taller than 6’3”) is wrong.
Seat post height is based on how long your legs are, not how tall you are. If anything, you should list that by inseam.
As it is, I would have no idea which option is the most appropriate.
Do you have sources to back that up?
In the UK, the price on your website lists it as £2,025 (or £3,003 for the higher-end model). I can get a PlanetX titanium gravel bike for £1,799 - granted it's not folding, but you specified "folding or not"!
In my experience (and maybe you'll correlate), all materials involve compromise; there doesn't tend to be a case where a material is outstandingly better in all categories.
Comparing titanium vs. the best steels, it's half the weight but also half the modulus of elasticity and half the tensile yield strength. I wouldn't expect there to be much weight advantage when comparing two tubes with roughly equal properties but maybe this is a case of "every little bit helps"?
If I remember rightly, titanium is harder to process also.
Along the lines of my other comment, have you had any problems with Brompton around your pivoting rear wheel? Your design looks very different from the Brompton but I believe it’s that pivoting rear wheel they are quite aggressive about legally (where they can be).
That single sided front fork is genius!
I really hope you have incredible success, next time I’m looking for a folding bike I will certainly check yours out.
Additionally, I saw there are some electric options coming up in Q3, would you spare a moment to share your thoughts about possible future developments (i.e. if you see belt/ebike options expand in the future)?
Major kudos for using off-the-shelf standard components. I can't over-stress this enough.
I'm not saying I'm pulling the trigger and ordering straight away (I've had this idea in my head for well over a year, so far just waiting for a good excuse / trip idea), but it's definitely made it close to the top of my list now. Even though it's pricy at around 3k Eur, given the titanium frame it's probably still well cheaper than equivalent Brompton (Chapter 3 or such).
Can you clarify what you mean by “the fold is the most compact possible, even more compact than Brompton in terms of maximizing the use of space“
The Brompton's folded size is 585mm high x 565mm long x 270mm wide
The Helix is 580mm x 635mm x 230mm.
Helix 71.12 x 63.5 x 26.67 cm
Kwiggle 55 × 40 × 25 cm
While twice as expensive the Helix looks much more like a decent bike at roughly the same weight. Like many folding bikes and scooters the Kwiggle looks like you could get seriously injured if you hit something (small). Before your face hits the pavement you would try stick your leg forwards but it has these scary looking spikes there.
You can see the Brompton influence, one pivoting wheel and folding cross bar with a 45deg hinge. But they have had to compromise in order to not infringe the design resulting in a very odd seat design.
I have spent many many hours trying to design a fold as good as Bromptons and haven’t managed too, it’s just too perfect.
Our shop has noted that Brompton bottom brackets are low quality. Often poorly aligned to the frame and the threading frequently needs chased.
The fold on a Brompton is just about perfect. It takes no time at all. I'm a little annoyed to find that they're using copyright to keep a monopoly on it, but certainly not so much that I'm going to give it up.
I tried out a Tern, a Dahon, and some random ancient thing. I've never regretted spending the extra coin on the Brompton. The fact that all the greasy bits are in the middle when it's folded means you throw it in your trunk without thinking about it. It means you put it between your legs on the subway without thinking about it. The fact that it folds in seconds means you don't miss your train fumbling with it at the fare gate.
The only downside I can see is like half the parts on the thing are bespoke. Replacing a derailleur, for instance is not something your average shop can do. Ditto the shifters.
It's the Apple of bikes: the tight integration of the components gets you an absolutely magnificent package (at a premium price), but you get some lock-in as a result.
For example, lugging it around on public transport, or bringing it on a plane, or just dragging it around a city for the day - this thing easily wins, there’s just no comparison. I haven’t rode one of these so of course I can’t say, but the fact that they rode it all around the entire IJsselmeer (one of the largest lakes in the world) - which is a serious bike ride even on a normal bike - is a pretty good sign that this bike isn’t terrible to ride on, even if it may not quite be a Brompton. So the comparison becomes “decent portability and excellent biking” vs “excellent portability and decent biking”. I think that’s a fair tradeoff. If anything, I wish it would go further - give me half the size and a mediocre biking experience and I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
I'm very happy with mine, and it has most of the advantages you list - luggage rack, real bike feel (my longest day is apparently 64km and top speed 64kph). The sensitive steering takes a bit of getting used to the first time but you adapt quite quickly. For me the simple fold (and, sure, lower price) feels like a big advantage compared to the Brompton, which is what several of my friends have.
Regarding the cost, I'm quite sure I could sell mine for more than 800 EUR while any other alternative would lose at least 50% of the value and probably require more maintenance.
Had one for a bit, very small wheels, was kindof fun but in London its just easier to have a normal bike and arrange your commute so that you use it, rather than carry a small bike around.
I also had a Strida, really nice design and a good balance between usefulness and foldyness
I have a Decathlon foldable. It doesn't fold quite as small as a Brompton, so I wouldn't want to be regularly taking it on public transport. But it's light and solid, folds easily and rides well at about one third the price.
[1]: https://fr.brompton.com/shop/bikes/a-line?color=white&handle...
That said the bike in TFA looks interesting for multi-modal commuter use in e.g. Singapore or other such cities where a Brompton likely would not be accepted on the subway.
There's also the JZ88 (https://jz88.com/shop.html) which is claimed to be Singapore MRT-acceptable but I haven't used it.
This is an interesting idea, but I wonder if it collides into the electric scooter market.
I think dahon bikes are fairly nice, but I have not tried a brompton.
I have a dahon mu n360 with a variable transmission that I like quite a bit.
https://dahon.com/bikes/mu-n360/
However recently I bought two bikes direct e-bikes - pretty versatile and go off-road/to parks:
https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-elec...
I wonder how people use their folding bikes?
I am not totally satisfied, but it is OK. I'll probably change the crank gear to be larger, the very lowest gears aren't useful right now because they are so slow.
I also can't ride it without having at least one hand on the handlebars.
Having fenders is nice, but they are very flimsy.
Price was a lot lower than a Brompton.
It’s a great tool.
Although to be fair I never worked for a company where there was at least one Brompton.
Having said that there’s something very British about it IMO. But I am not British.
It would be convenient for me to have one due to lack of space in my apartment, but from an external observer perspective they all look like too small and like I would need to ride hunched and uncomfortable, so I haven't really looked into them. But maybe it's just prejudice.
I recently ordered a frame on AliExpress [0] equipped with internal cable routing and disc brake mounts, 2.25'' tire clearance. My build looks like a gravel bike. A gravel bike on 20'' with an 11 speed cassette, a drop bar and SRAM derailleur. Of course, not to miss a great carbon sear post. Including pedals and tires, the bike accounts for 10kg. In order to take it on flights, I did sew myself a backpack to fit the bike. Taking the bike apart takes me 10 minutes. It is a tiny bit too large for hand luggage but ideal for being checked in.
For me the frame is a great compromise between size, stiffness and maintainability.
Velo orange [1] does offer a lovely frameset, too. It's just hard to get by in Europe (at a reasonable price point).
[0] https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600169443757/SILVEROCK-Chrome...
So much for German engineering in this case ;-)
We have been developing Kwiggle for 10 years and producing Kwiggle for almost 3 years.
Every detail has been carefully designed to create a 10kg lightweight folding bike that can even be folded into hand luggage and still go as fast as a normal bike. We have selected materials and manufacturing processes for the drive unit and rims with the highest wear resistance in the bicycle market. We use high-strength aluminum and stainless steel parts for the frame and have extensively tested the stability of the frame and drive unit dynamically and statically.
Our 35 suppliers for material, components and parts manufacture according to our requirements with highest precision, because precision is another important factor for stable and durable components of a folding bike.
In the meantime, our greatest motivation is the many enthusiastic feedbacks from our many customers, who at the moment still come mainly from Germany. We are already shipping the Kwiggle all over the world and Kwiggle already is ridden on every continent.
So we are happy if you take a close look. Please assume that we have already thought about almost every little critical detail that is discussed.
So if you are looking for a very compact folding bike, feel free to take a close look.
The movement on the Kwiggle is new, but very close to your natural walk. And when even a 85-year-old man writes to us, "I can only do two things: ride a rollator and ride a Kwiggle, but I enjoy the Kwiggle more." Then you can assume that you can ride the Kwiggle very well, too.
A few months ago I bought a used folding bike for €100, equipped it with a motor and battery that cost less than €400, for use on train trips.
Nothing feels better than getting out of a long-distance train trip, unfolding your bike and going about your way in a different city... No taxis, no complex public transport map to understand, nothing but freedom.
The Tikit (which is closest to the Kwiggle which is linked here) is similarly quick to fold and unfold, and quite portable. Before the scooter craze people were leery of riding a bike with smaller wheels but for most things it is fine.
My general impression has been that if you are worried about how you are going to store your bike when you get where you are going, folding bikes can be a big win.
I wouldn't take it on a crowded (UK) commuter train: the fold is much larger and more ungainly than a Brompton. But you can go touring up hill and down dale on it, on the sort of route that would leave you panting on a Brommie. Plus it works great as an everyday bike even in circumstances when folding isn't important.
I gave them a serious look and realized they weren't for me because I am not a cyclist. For me, a bike is a tool which isn't to say Bike Friday bikes aren't tools, but rather that looking at Bike Friday made it clear that a Brompton would be a better tool for me...e.g. it has a bell out of the box and doesn't anticipate I own a specialized wardrobe.
There’s no good way to store a regular bicycle. All of them are compromises of convenience, security, floor space and weather protection.
It seems like the fanny pack of bikes: pretty useful but you gotta look dorky if you want to use it.
It's vain but I'd find it hard to believe I'm alone here.
The motivation must have been that it allows the integrated rims and hubs, which are probably much easier to manufacture than spoked wheels at this size. The downsides seem significant though: A derailleur with gears this small is going to wear very quickly, and when it is time to replace it, you just have to hope that Kwiggle is still around to supply you with spares.
I have been a bike-fiddler since my teenage years, but it was only recently (40+) I tried taking apart an intra-hub gear. To my surprise, the whole gear mechanism is fitted to the axle an can be replaced in one go [0]. The only functional parts of the hub/housing is half-bearings and ratchets. The cool approach for Kwiggle would be to replicate these and just pop in a Shimano gear.
[0]: https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/sm/SM-IHG-INTER7_ENG.pdf page 43 ff.
That and the small wheels don't inspire confidence dealing with the typical curbs & potholes that one is likely to encounter in an urban environment.
What's the use-case for folding bikes like this? Is there a pervasive lack of bike racks in certain places that would necessitate stowing a bike in such small quarters?
https://www.decathlon.fr/p/velo-pliant-oxylane-120/_/R-p-120...
they actually went up in price since then. swapped stock tires because they were rubbish and also bought better seatpost from upper model. removed all the unneccessary stuff like ringer or mudguards and this thing flies. im getting average speed about 18km/h on my rides and done about 4000km so far without any problems. this is perfect city bike in my opinion. if this thing had disc brakes it would be even better.
I've been riding Montague Bikes for years -- on the other end of the folding bike spectrum. Full-size wheels, rides so much smoother. Doesn't fold down as small but it goes in the trunk of a car or can be carried on the train and that's all I really need.
Sometimes the the problem can't be fixed with a technical solution and the user simply needs to learn to use a new tool ;)
1. Size / Portable, about 7" x 17" x 24"
2. Agility, better maneuverability around cars and obstacles
3. Speed, can go >40mph, most of the time you only need 15~25mph
4. Hands free, can carry stuff
5. Wheel size is 16" and up (better than scooters with small wheels)
Downsides:
1. Weight, 40lbs and up (my current one is 65lbs)
2. Electric only
3. Safety - if it cuts out, your falling off (has yet to happen to me)
4. No exercise like a bike (I became much weaker after I stopped riding my bike)
5. Expensive (starts ~$1300 for basic, likely will want to spend $1800-$2400)
- heavy to carry by hand, which you need to do when you arrive at your destination (can't leave them on the street in a bike rack)
- can't jump on and off of sidewalks without stepping off and carrying them; very dangerous around potholes and other irregularities on the road
- difficult to use in inclement weather (no mud guards, etc.)
I bought one around 8 years ago; still have it but never use it; the battery must be dead by now as I have not charged it in a very long while.
A big advantage EUCs have is you don't have to bother with folding like a bike, just hop off, grab the trolley handle and walk on.
Electric scooters have similar advantages but they have to compromise range, performance, and compactness for their ease of learning.
The other thing is that you actually get some light exercise on a bike. Most people with desk jobs would do well to move their bodies a bit more during their days.
One thing that's nice some times about scooters is being able to stand up tall, rather than get into a slightly hunched up position on a bike. The Kwiggle from the GP allows for quite a unique upright body position. So that may be intriguing.
300km on one day with a Kwiggle.
Brompton can sorta solve this by having front and rear cargo carry (bias: I own an older Brompton and have travelled from seattle to california by train with it. see also knockoff versions of it like https://jcat.bike/ )
Besides that you can attach a standard bike pack (e.g. from Ortlieb) to the frame of the Kwiggle or carry a backpack, of course.
It's a folding bike which lives in my car's trunk. It's also easily and quickly adjustable so that I can bring one of my other bikes for me and then set the Tern up for pretty much anyone else.
It's a little small for me and with a short wheel base, there's a limit to how steep it will go without the front wheel just lifting off the ground.
One of the positives that I've found with this bike is that I like smaller wheels, 24" rather than 700C. You accelerate faster. It might not work for a road bike doing a loop ride but for urban riding, I do like it.
When unfolded, you can’t tell at all that they’re folding bikes.
Every metro area I’ve lived in allows bikes on trains and city busses have racks on the front. Leaving a bike in a secure lobby/hallway, garage has almost always been an option. That said, I don’t hesitate to chain mine up on the street either, so I’m having trouble seeing a folding bike as offering any advantage in most situations, especially considering the compromises that are often made in comfort and performance.
I then moved and I lived at one end of the Central line in Essex, about a 1 minute walk, and worked a similar distance in West London.
Took about 55 minutes for the train to go, always got a seat in both directions.
However during summer I would ride on my Bromptom one way in the morning two or three times a week - took about 24 miles, or 2 hours, I'd then fold it up and take it home on the train.
My next move was too far to ride (45 miles each way), and less than a mile from the station at each end so didn't do much commuting riding then, and I moved to be a home worker in 2011, but I still ride my Bromptom around the country lanes. Occasionally think I should upgrade to something with more than 3 gears (it's relatively hilly where I live).
The bike itself I think cost £520 back in 2005, a new one of the same model is over £1k now, not sure what the second hand value is
One of my routes includes Hampstead and Highgate, a decent amount of climb. I tried the 3 speed hire Bromptons, but went for the 6 speed when I purchased one. The upgrade was well worth the money, I doubt I'd be able to get up those hills on the 3 speed.
Good on you for doing 70km! That's about the limit of my comfortable endurance on it too. My record is~100km plus two ferry rides touring on the west coast but I admittedly walked it up the last two hills in the dark and I started to wish I was done around 85km.
What do you use for checked airline travel? I have the B&W hard case but haven't tried anything else. I think it is a linear inch or two over regulation if measured but nobody has ever stopped me or charged overage.
I'm in the process of building aluminum cases for two Zizzo folders my gf and I just bought. I'm keeping them under the size limit to be safe, but because they also convert into trailers (to haul carry-on) and are relatively beefy, I'm bumping up against the 50 lb weight limit for economy seats. Right now I'm scratching my head as to how to incorporate casters and center stands with only 1 lb left to play with. :|
I have a Zizzo and bought one for each of my immediate family members. Everyone loves it.
Amazon has reasonable pricing+availability for USA people.
I bought 3 Zizzo Forte, and 1 Zizzo Urbano. The Urbano for my 9 yo daughter to make it slightly easier for her to manage.
Kwiggle is a new movement for a flexy human being. Humans have been accustomed to putting their natural flexibility into a rigid posture on a bicycle for 200 years.
If you are thinking the bicycle from the anatomically view, you should invent a bicycle, that could be ridden upright with your flexible natural movement similar to the walking.
This was the first idea of the Kwiggle. And this is an opportunity to get back to your natural flexibility. After a little get used to, Kwiggle will adapt to your movement and not the other way round.
I really love my light aluminum non-folding bike that is pedal-powered... but if I would buy a folding bike, it would be electric-motor powered.
On the other hand, if you ride 70 Km a day - why would you even need a _folding_ bike? That means you do serious cross-country riding. Use a regular bike.
I've had an A-bike in the past as well, and while I like the idea in principle, it's essentially a scam, due to the extremely low-quality materials - some components in the transmission are made of plastic, and they're bound to break rather quickly (I think it took me just a few months, even with around 20 km/week).
The Brompton is a much better folded bike (it's a lot smaller, it actually stays folded, it doesn't have exposed greasy parts when folded, you can use it as a shopping cart, etc).
High end Terns (Verge) are more like a normal bike with good components but they are nowhere near as compact when folded (likelihood of walking it into a shop and not getting yelled at is nil, unlike with the Brompton), they don't have as good commuter accessories as the Bromptons and they ride much stiffer (which is good or bad depending on what you are doing with the bike).
Source: own both
I know you've collected some positive anecdotes but I don't see many reviews from third parties out there yet, so I really can't commit to it. Is this simply because the product is still new? Can you say how many are already out there on the roads?
There is a first test report from a journalist of SPIEGEL:
https://www.spiegel.de/auto/faltrad-kwiggle-im-test-achtung-...
Kwiggle was part of a test of folding bikes from BikeBild:
https://www.kwigglebike.com/web/image/37936?unique=b95a1aead...
There will be further longer test reports from various journalists/media this spring.
A clever way of answering the actual first question "why so expensive?"
I guess the appeal of the folding bike is more for irregular or infrequent trips.
Totally agree on the freedom aspect. Bicycles are ideal for inner city travel. Cars should be banned. I often use public bicycle shares when I travel now which is great because you don't even have to fold/carry or lock the bike up anywhere.
Yep, this is how I use it. I have another ebike for everyday use.
Not sure about the two-bikes concept though, because long-term bike parking is still a huge problem, security-wise, esp. for ebikes.
The 200€ one won't help you if you need to fly it. Even for road trips, for 2 adults in a city car, the size constraints could be enough to not bring two biggish 200€ along.
Basically, the choice comes to a 200€ bike you never bring along, or 800/1600€ bikes you can bring anywhere.
There are two Chinese brands for the engines: Bafang and Tongsheng. Bafang has a better reputation; I used a Bafang for my first conversion (a regular MTB). But Tongshengs, in addition to being a little more affordable, are true pedal assist: power is proportional to the force you put on the pedals. It's a different experience from Bafang, but pedal assist feels better on a small folding bike, IMHO.
You can buy them on Aliexpress; look for vendors who have inventory in your country, which allows for faster shipping.
Here's the final build:
https://i.imgur.com/TBHHOc1.jpeg
... and on the road in Marseilles:
http://www.velogical-engineering.com/velospeeder/produktinfo...
As bambax said - that's not what affordable means. Affordable is all about whether the target market can afford it, not whether it's good value for the materials and work put in.
The folding bicycle is bastardized version that shoehorns the concept of portability at the expense of nearly every other quality except "gets from point A to point B".
I'm likely wrong and they probably are a great solution for many but goodness.. I love normal bicycles too much to look at a folding bike with anything but cringe.
Personally, I have a folding bike with small-ish wheels; yeah, it looks quirky, but it works well and fits in my closet, trunk, etc. so I don't care. I'd maybe buy the kwiggle too if I could afford it
I care about how I look and present myself. That's not exactly unique, and it doesn't have to be strongly tied to me caring if people think I'm "uncool".
But it’s a little more work to ride than a bicycle
Citation needed
But if I would live in a big city, I might get over that feeling, since it does seem practical.
There are none of those nice bike racks on the front of American buses here. The whole system is fairly hostile towards active travel.
And even more hostile to PLEVs. Electric scooters still illegal (beyond a few set-up-up-to-fail rental trials), a 250W limit on eBikes, and no hope whatsoever of electric skateboards, OneWheels, and so on ever being legal on roads or pavements.
Yet still people wage war on the car, without any attempt to make alternatives more viable.
And despite the roads being at breaking point, the trains being overcrowded and ludicrously priced, and road safety/bike theft/weather deterring all but the most dedicated cyclists, somehow transport isn't even a significant political issue in the UK.
(London-centric politics doesn't help. Many Londoners, particularly politicians, don't seem to have a clue about life beyond the M25)
What I've read from people who fall into this use case is the biggest requirement is a large wheel size. (This one wouldn't be great for that reason.) You'll want big wheels and fat tires to deal with, shall we say, less than optimal road conditions. The other main requirement is, of course, some kind of load carrier. Usually some sort of trailer, though several Dahons have a carrier. Dahons are the usual go-to brand.
This bike looks like it would be a decent fit, but I'm not sure I can convince myself to shell out 1500 bucks for it... So the search for a last mile solution continues :-)
Btw. In UK on certain routes or during rush hours you can only take a foldable bike onboard.
Also, the non-inflated rubber wheels I had on the thing were very uncomfortable (and loud) on cobblestone-type roads. Almost infeasible to use, really. But otherwise it was a pretty convenient thing to have.
There are push scooters with inflatable tires (I've seen them here in the US) but not sure how much that affects the weight and portability.
Wheels are small, board is short, and center of gravity is high. It just takes a small pothole covered with leaves (so, not even winter), and the driver will fly forward (I did).
E-scooters are heavier, with larger wheels and longer boards, so they may be less accident-prone, but I've never tried one.
Another thing at this form factor you can get electric skateboard, muscles are concern.
However, the limit on how good a bike is are defined by materials and geometry together. With strong, tight and shock-absorbing enough materials, you could theoretically create a race-quality bike in a form-factor like this.
When or if such things will appear is hard to say. The Bike Friday seems to be at the quality of a decent road bike but foldable into a suitcase (they've had the same basic design for twenty years so twenty years of materials improvement might create a pretty extraordinary thing).
See: https://bikefriday.com/ (relative to other comments, slightly larger than Brompton but I think more of a bike that really can be your only bike).
I can't see myself on one of these things but I never had a commute where it would be necessary, in a pinch maybe it's the lesser evil.
Longboards I think still have serious usability/safety issues compared to scooters and especially bikes.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/0001985...
They've reorganized their product lines since I got mine. I've got a two speed with flat bars and fenders, all steel (i.e. no titanium). I'd say that three speeds is probably a worthy upgrade unless you live somewhere dead flat (and the two speeds are spaced too far apart for my liking, I'd add). Even the flat bars are pretty upright if you're used to a road bike.
Of other note, if you have a long inseam, you'll be getting a bigger seat post. I'm a 34" inseam, and I had to get the extendable seat post to get the seat high enough.
This claims stability is more determined by fork ~trail. http://avaghon.nl/download/Naloop_Bikestability-Forkrake.pdf
This bike has a steeper head tube, reducing trail. But reducing rake (even if it goes negative), increases the trail again.
Stability is more complicated than just that, though... iirc bicycles have a bunch of nodes, including 1? 2? that are unstable but slow enough that riders don't notice they're compensating.
> What countries do you ship to?
> Helix ships worldwide.
I have a folding portage cart with light weight removable wheels that attach via pushpin axles into metal receivers. Buy two extra receivers, drill holes in the side of the case, bolt on the receivers, and attach the wheels at the destination.
I haven't used it for this yet but plan was I would just take the wheels in my carry on. I also have not work out how to attach the cart to the bike yet.
Wike sells the individual wheels, pins, receivers (2) and even a diy box trailer kit(1) using these parts with instructions if looking to visualize this.
(1) https://wicycle.com/products/bike-trailers/diy2 (2) https://wicycle.com/support/replacementparts
Thank you, just what I was thinking!
> If anything, you should list that by inseam.
What you want to measure is the PBH (pubic bone height). It is very precise: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yxZkHpAB4g
Hell, I'd probably buy one without any parts which were standardized and likely to be customized anyway (saddle, brakes, bb and cranks, levers, chain, freewheel) and just move them over from a current bike.
Due to copyright regulations and court orders in the UK and EU the knock off can not be imported and sold.
On Kwiggle you ride upright with a small wheelbase. So you have to adjust a little bit and you should pay a little bit more attention to the road. We have so many customers who have mastered that with bravour, so we stopped worrying about it.
Only with this small wheelbase it is possible to get a bicycle folded to handluggage size.
US dealers that sell them seem to start around $1600
Mid drive on the other hand would be a more challenging project because of the space and packaging constraints of our design. But, rear hub motors, which is what we’re using, have improved a lot recently; they are lighter, 2 speed, quieter and are considered to be comparable now. You also have a far more flexible upgrade path when technology improves as it’s not tied to the frame.
Electric Helix is going to be pretty ground breaking because up until now, the only other compact option was Brompton which is front wheel drive.
So maybe the dream bike is still possible, just a bit different.
Definitely understand where you're coming from. I'm excited to see how well can Helix make the pedal assist with rear wheel motor work. What I like in particular is that the setup will be more upgradeable than most mid-drive builds.
With respect to the belt drive, glad to hear that's still a possibility (albeit not a priority, which is fine). This is just a single data point, but if there was a Alfine 11 option with a belt, I'd pull the trigger and buy one right now. Well, perhaps I'd wait for the rear rack and the luggage case that I understand are in the works, those are killer accessories.
For me personally, the weight is less of a concern, at least in the vicinity of the low numbers where current helix builds are. To illustrate, my current 20 inch folder is about 15kg (belt+alfine 11) and I find that quite manageable.
In any case, keep rocking on, I hope you guys succeed - it's exciting to see such novel bike engineering happening here in Canada :)
A bike that is always clean, never needs you to mess around finding a secure lockup and almost never needs service is the dream, and stopping 90% of the way there for want of 3kg seems so strange.
https://wheretheroadforks.com/chain-vs-belt-drive-bike-pros-...
https://www.kwigglebike.com/en_US/faltrad-300km
Ok, 300km/d is not for all people, but it show the possibilies.
Two of the most important advantages of a folding bike, namely the weight and the folding volume, are also the largest cost factors in the product price.
The price is a matter of quality of material and manufacturing and number of parts. The lower the weight, the higher have to be the quality, the more compact, the more high-tech parts are required. the more expensive will be the bike.
You can't produce a folding bike with only 10 kg and only 55 l of folded volume that can easily be ridden up to 25 km/h and is stable for people from 1,30 m to 1,95 m and up to 100 kg for prices below 2,000 euro, unless you produce 100,000 or more in a year or you sell directly to the customers.
Being similarly tall with longish legs (especially my thigh bone, important for eg. legroom in cars, airplanes...), I'd be extremely weary of jumping on a bike that's not suitably sized, no matter what claims people make how a smaller bike can fit you.
But what matters just the same is your arm length, body length and such: basically, how far down and in the front you can reach when properly seated above the pedals? I've only got "average" arms (my wingspan matches my height), so smaller frames mean hard to reach handlebars.
When you can't easily try a bike out, if it's not rated for at least 2-3" (5-8cm) taller riders than you are, I wouldn't get it because your balance and posture will suffer.
Looking at comments, they come from western Spain, there's plenty of Bike shops in say Cáceres.
If I was spending €1000+ on a bike I was going to use for the next decade, I'd want to try it out first
I was hoping 9th century mention would give it away though.
This line of thinking is why everything was stupid expensive in the bay area (mattresses, bicycles, etc.) In Canada, I never paid more than 300 for a bicycle or more than 500 for a mattress. As OP said, I don't care if it is made in London, the price needs to be accessible to the masses for these things to solve our transport crisis.
Like a macbook pro omits a headphone jack and ethernet ports?
Ground transportation at a whole lot of the places I can fly to is just nonexistent or not at all reliable. I expect much of the rest of the country probably has similar issues..
This is not at all like poorly fitting clothes. The bicycle is clearly used as designed.
I suppose what I don't understand is that I embrace unusual. Something that raises a discussion is partly what makes something interesting and worth doing. It seems to me you present the question around fashion as one of fitting in, and that seems a somewhat depressing view of the world when laid out so starkly.
Even though of course I care about what people think about me, I would never admit that as being the reason I would dismiss something a priori. It's that bit that puzzles me most - your openness to being subject to the whims of fashion.
> It's that bit that puzzles me most - your openness to being subject to the whims of fashion.
So it's not my choice to consider how I look (in fashion or with my choice of bike), it's that I'm open about it?
> Are you suggesting your opinion on how to present yourself is not influenced by others?
I don't know why it has to be analyzed so deeply. I consider the appearance of the things I buy. I consider both if I like the look and if I think others would like the look. Clothes, shoes, cars, in this case a bike, etc. Some things are pleasing to the eye. Other things are ugly or dorky or weird, which most of the time I'm not looking for in a look.
How can I justify that if my Mazda3 2008 is worth that much, and still runs perfectly fine?
If you want to talk about why they're expensive compared to cars, IDK... cars are mass produced by robots in Japan and the bikes are small-scale assembled in Canada by people.
Resale value is important in the sense that you know you are risking at most X, which with Brompton sounds to be €600 — in case you dislike it or don't have a need for it anymore, or are in a need of cash, so the risk you are willing to take is still larger.
Ultimately, as with anything, if Bromptons are really of such a high quality, the best purchase is a used Brompton which you might be able to resell for the same price you got it at. If you really end up using it to the max, you can resell it early and get a new one specced to your liking.
For something you'll end up using daily, the most important thing is quality, and then you should look for the best price next.
The only trouble I ever had was at LJU, which is a tiny airport, where security wouldn't let me bring the skateboard as carry-on. Guessing they aren't as used to seeing weird stuff happening.
The NS (Dutch National Railway) sells a secured bike storage subscription starting from 75 euros a year. And you can do it cheaper if you use your bike frequently because at some stations the first 24 hours are free.
And if you have a cheap bike that you use just for your commute you can also just put it in the free bike storage and only move it secured if you know you will be gone for >2 weeks or whatever the limit for free storage is.
Paris is also not flat, so unless you're super in shape it's difficult to use a non-electric bikes (depending on the journey, of course), and ebikes tend to be stolen much more than regular ones.
In other French cities, I don't know enough to have an opinion; I think Strasbourg is a little bit better.
That being said, I know people who have done the two bikes thing, or at least one bike that "lives" at a railway station, for a long time and not aware of them having any problems.
As another post here mentions, it would be good for me to write about the lessons of our journey as it is unique and becoming more relevant as hardware startups seem to be on the rise. I will do that soon.
I'm not so forgiving of campaigns running into issues and not replying to comments. In this case, I see that this campaign had a last update in 2017 and people complaining in the comments with no response I can see in the last 4 years. And this kind of lack of communication that's shown in Kickstarter is not a good sign of the integrity of the company (and doesn't look good for prospective buyers).
Logistic problem are understandable, rising costs make sense but in that case, publicize it. I've seen some kickstarter campaigns that had such issues, had a lot of delays and had to sell retail in order to have enough money to deliver their backers reward but they were transparent, published the updates in kickstarter and even made it visible to everyone.
Edit:
It seems to have been proven in court that they have copyright (rather than the old patent) of the design. A bit like the coke bottle design I suppose.
https://www.farrer.co.uk/news-and-insights/brompton-puts-the...
(Brompton is a UK company, so this wouldn't apply to UK-based competitors, but it would protect US-based competitors.)
EDIT: it looks like the EU actually has similar rules. Brompton is very likely going to lose this case, and is probably just counting on the court proceedings to delay this competitor's entry into the market. Expect a flood of Brompton-likes when the lawsuit settles.
If there is a downside that would be that even though the wheels are quite a bit bigger than the ones of the bike showcased here that the tires are very high pressure and need frequent topping up.
Do you use CC0 for all your own work?
If I haven't rode both bicycle and skateboards for distance for a while, I'd have exact same thought as you. From my experience of casual rider, it's opposite - I can easily go for hours on skateboard, while on bicycle I get tired and uncomfortable. I've ridden same bike paths 10-20 miles on bicycle and skateboard, and for me skateboard is easier. My guess because on skateboard I can change body position and muscles involved, can switch legs, push or pump. While on bicycle I'm locked in the same position, using same muscles all the time.
Jogging is way way harder than skate, I can barely jog 5 miles, but on skateboard 5 miles i won't even sweat.
There're various types of longboards and indeed some are quite high and you end up doing one legged squat. There many low to the ground models designed for distance specifically, that are much more comfortable to push, no squatting. Check https://www.instagram.com/p/Cbah6FrJuUv/ or https://www.gbomblongboards.com/longboard-skateboard-gallery
Cycling is more efficient that skateboarding, but surprisingly by a small factor. 24h record for cycling is ~900km, while on skateboard ~500km.
The key is to people able to take a flight at any time and day, so you can always take the cheapest options. But also if you book 2 months in advance you can go anywhere in the Caribbean/central America on spirit for $100 or so.
It has integrated locks and unlikely to be stolen. It can't be picked up and thrown in the back of a van.
Or just ridden off.
I come out and the seat isn't wet and the chain isn't rusty.
Everything is dry and ready to go.
As for the rest, I lube my chains rarely and they are rusty on extreme occasions only and stand in the rain often. Belt drives also require no lube at all. A bike can be dried up in 5 seconds or you can use a seat cover which costs around 50 cents on average unless you get it for free. You take it off and the seat is dry and ready to go.
And you don't have to drive around three blocks for 10 minutes looking for a parking space. Or longer if you don't find it and drive home and ride a bike instead. So cars are a compromise with mental health and bikes are a breeze. I haven't had to worry about anything or make any compromise with them in so 12 years I've been riding daily. Because even a rusty chain can be replaced for 10-20$. They are basically worry free and almost maintenance free. To call them a compromise is an insult to common sense.
I don’t disagree with your experience regarding maintenance. Mine has been with a bike in Florida rain, where the streets run yellow with pine pollen in spring, and where the fog is of the Pacific’s salt air.
With my folding bike, I just find a place to park the car and peddle the last mile or don’t and just walk. A car doesn’t require me to park close.
Car or bike or foot, I tend to maintain my chill about the same frequency. I stopped competing for parking a few years ago. Cannabis helped. YMMV, but it helped on the internet too.
I'm not saying it's perfect, but I certainly see the appeal for commuters, especially as a last mile option. You usually can't go with a full bike in public transports during rush hour anyway, so the usual alternative is to have one bike at each end, where they are outside all the time.
Storing it is very much my practical problem.
The solutions are orthogonal to the presence or absence of parking lots, quays, and hangers in my community.
For me, folding it up and putting it in a closet seems simpler than changing civilization. YMMV.
The folding bike improves the situation in my domestic life.
In general a bike is a both-and to an automobile not an either-or.
Each is a tool that is better for some jobs and worse for others. As tools neither is moral or immoral, virtuous or evil, inherently right or wrong.
“Tires with a smaller diameter have a higher rolling resistance with the same inflation pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally greater. The tire is flattened more and is “less round”.”
Oh, I so wish that were true.
Software is the poster child for multiple IP regimes applying to the same thing, with copyrights applying twice over (source code and object code/binary executable) as well as patents. Patents can in theory also be applicable to the compilation of source code into object code, but as far as I'm aware no one has pursued a case on that basis, and in any case open source compilers are now standard.
But it gets even crazier when you start adding trademark and trade dress (ie. "look and feel" etc.) into the mix.
Just about the only form of IP that in practice is invalidated by the other forms is trade secret, as the others all involve some form of disclosure or publication.
Your use case is ok, I have a friend that does something similar when his wife takes their car for the day. But even without a folding bike it would be trivial to put a rack for the bike on the back of the car.
Take care.
And yes agreed, kickstarter's UI is really not great..
a) yes, when it's used anti-competitively; which it almost exclusively is. I haven't been sold on the idea that idea exclusivity funds creative and public works and value-stores. I tend to believe that capitol does that -- and I think capitol can be generated regardless of copyright state.
b) Yes, I have a cc0 1.0 license on anything I release outside of the contracts i'm beholden to from other entities. My thingiverse profile, for one, is filled with general purpose models and assets that are all licensed cc0 1.0 -- these took real person-hours to produce and have actual value for some folks.
other than the occassional irritation with persnickety users here and there I enjoy the work and view it as a social good -- I hope others find the work valuable and use it themselves; surely others exist with the same motivations.
The concern is that they're double-dipping. They had a patent. Patents expire after 20 years, but give you exclusive right to use an invention in the meantime. After a patent expires, what's supposed to happen is that anyone can make use of it.
After the patent expired, they started abusing copyright to kill competition.
It's incredibly unethical to try and have it both ways. They had their patent. Their patents is gone. Competitors should be allowed to use the technology in that patent, without worrying about a random court for some forsaken reason allowing them to abuse copyright to stop competitors from being able to compete.
I like the Brompton and tried one in a shop, but decided I couldn't see springing $1400+ for one unless I was sure I would use it a lot, so I would possibly start with a lower cost folding bike and see how I liked it. That was pre-pandemic so I put the whole thing aside.
I'm not concerned about travelling with the bike. The attraction of a folder to me is just an easier time getting it in and out of an apartment for commuting purposes.
e.g. ARM, Dyson, the RepRap project, the Raspberry Pi, the Oxford/AZ vaccine, Rolls-Royce jet engines. Graphene. The micro-satellite. Vantablack. The genuinely trailblazing .gov.uk project. Quorn. Cloning!
And most importantly, the tikka massala, the balti, and the Henry vaccum cleaner.
(And, someone told me the other day, bungee jumping. Sorry about that)
I have no idea if our IP regime is worse or better than anywhere else's; we do not have a tradition of crazy software patents, though, so my guess is better, not worse.
