Tell HN: Google Play blocked payments for Riders app with 1M users

176 points by igordebatur 4 years ago | 83 comments

Google blocked our payment profile for Riders App (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.whitescape...).

After 2 months of providing all of the required docs and getting auto-declines, I've talked to their support and they just answered (quote):

"I have consulted our specialist about your account. Our specialist team has determined that this profile must stay suspended due to violations of our Terms of Service. We’re unable to discuss the specific circumstances of this or any suspensions.

Our Google Payments Terms of Service states that Google Payments Corp. reserves the right to change, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Services at any time, including availability of the Services, or any Service feature, without notice or liability."

The app has nearly 25k of positive ratings and currently one of the most popular apps for action sport participants.

I frankly don't have any idea what to do, that's super sad.

jeroenhd 4 years ago |

The owner of the app, Whitespace, is listed on Google as having their headquarters in St Petersburg. Could it be related to this: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...? Google has suspended payments to Russia as a consequence of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the many sanctions results from that (like kicking many Russian banks from the international payment system).

Whitescape also lists a location in Estonia, which obviously isn't a problem, but if Google doesn't know about that (or thinks you're misleading them) then you might still be screwed.

igordebatur 4 years ago | |

The app was published many years ago by Whitescape, the agency we owned at that point. I was born in Russia 35+ years ago. But now I'm the resident of Canada. Google has never asked me about this.

But even that must not be the case: since then the Google Play account and it's payment profile are associated with Riders app Inc (the US Delaware c-corp) and our new bank account is with Mercury (Evolve bank and Trust)

mike_d 4 years ago | | |

The owner of the app is a company with a Russian nexus. Do you have a formal asset transfer agreement that moved the ownership of the app and all related assets to your Delaware corporation? Did the original company receive anything of value in exchange for all the assets? Can that agreement be independently verified?

These are the things I would personally look for in an investigation to determine if "Riders app Inc" was a corporation of convenience or the actual owner of the app.

mdoms 4 years ago | | |

Ok so it's very clear that you've been rightly caught up in Russian sanctions. Your recourse is to put pressure on the Russian government of which you are a citizen.

mardifoufs 4 years ago | |

He said this started 2 months ago. I don't think google started sanctioning Russia 1 month before the invasion...

g_p 4 years ago |

If you're based in Europe, consider if there's any opportunity to avail yourself of this legislation - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32...

Specifically, article 4 covers termination of service, and the rules around this. Most tech giants seem to be unaware of this regulation, as it's inconvenient for their "computer says no" model.

mike_d 4 years ago | |

> computer says no

Which is rarely the actual case. Blaming the computer is what they will tell you because we don't want to reveal how you got caught so you can defeat detection the next time.

barbazoo 4 years ago | |

> "computer says no"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n_Ty_72Qds

igordebatur 4 years ago | |

I based in Canada

igordebatur 4 years ago |

I read an another thread where there were questions about legitimacy of the app. And here we are: we have 25k+ positive ratings, the app is unique, it provides value for tens of thousands of active users.

The full disclosure is: we've closed our previous bank account to open a new one. Google tried to send a payment to our previous bank account, it has returned, they instantly locked our payments profile and that's it, the whole story.

mathrawka 4 years ago | |

Sounds like what I experienced last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26918013

There were issues with getting our Mercury account validated with Google Pay.

vmception 4 years ago | | |

OP just switched to Mercury

stirlo 4 years ago | |

> we've closed our previous bank account to open a new one. Google tried to send a payment to our previous bank account, it has returned, they instantly locked our payments profile and that's it, the whole story.

Was you previous account Russian based? When was it closed?

If you changed it after the war began I can see how Google would notice a Russian associated company (Whitescape) moving to a new bank account just before/during the sanctions and see it as an attempt to evade them which should obviously be blocked.

It seems this is a lesson to move your company to a more stable country (Canada) as soon as you can. Not to wait until the the leader does something the whole world condemns.

igordebatur 4 years ago | | |

This previous bank account was also in the US: Bank of America. And then, the issue lasts for 2 months+.

didntknowya 4 years ago | | |

yea there's plenty of details that could've been disclosed before presenting a one sided story

vmception 4 years ago | |

believe it or not, jail!

(the substantive nature of this comment is that Google acts like an autocrat and hopefully this provides introspection for relevant stakeholders that can eventually influence Google to be more collaborative)

vsviridov 4 years ago | | |

We have the best Play store customers... because of jail.

StopDarkPattern 4 years ago |

Many companies are experiencing attacks that get their content banned to cause them monetary damage. Bungie being one of the more main stream games. Google knows very well what they're doing and they pretend to hide behind a wall to not get involved. I recommend taking your case to your state representative and also consulting a lawyer. Detail and record everything you have stated to Google about your injustice and show that they have tried to automate you away with dark pattern.

Pursue justice.

igordebatur 4 years ago |

A friend suggested to post this on Twitter, let's see if this works https://twitter.com/igordebatur/status/1509311018303823875

agluszak 4 years ago |

Tell HN/Reddit has apparently become a de facto standard appeal procedure. This has to change. Google and other giants must be regulated. It shouldn't be so that unless you get in touch with an employee personally you stand no chance against the System

igordebatur 4 years ago | |

Couldn't agree more. On the contrary, in this case Apple's approach was the most humane: they answered within a day and helped to change the bank details. The first payment went through. I'm not advocating for Apple, but at least there was a real human on other side from the day one.

CamperBob2 4 years ago |

Don't forget to cc: your state and national legislators. They are the only ones who can actually fix this.

In your letter, point out that any sufficiently-dominant corporation is indistinguishable from a government, and do they really want the competition?

igordebatur 4 years ago | |

I want to, but I'll need to 'Google' how it's done first. I never thought I'll need to lawyer up against Google. Shit.

elkos 4 years ago | | |

I would suggest righting a letter and sending it via snail mail. In most cases letters to public offices are archived, they get a protocol number and all that jazz. Send this as Cc:ied to the local Google HQ and keep us updated.

Be frank about your concerns and seek resolution of the subject at hand.

If you have a lawyer that can assist you in writing such a letter (yes even an informal letter) that wouldn't get you in hot legal waters with Google even better.

postsantum 4 years ago |

Why don't you just make a new GP account and transfer the app there? I had my Pay account suspended a couple of years ago for verifications issues and it worked just fine.

Be careful and don't forget to change the dev name https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30811297

car_analogy 4 years ago |

> We’re unable to discuss the specific circumstances of this or any suspensions.

This is a lie. They're not unable, they're unwilling.

donclark 4 years ago |

Have you considered a side-load option (not through Google Play)?

Why is that not an option?

Has someone documented the process and all the options in hosting your own app independent of Google Play?

What are the drawbacks?

metadat 4 years ago | |

Most users are too inept to install a downloaded APK.

Furthermore, even if they somehow understand how to do it, Google chrome and Android OS work together to make it extremely scary sounding for end users.

The combined messaging is akin to:

"you're about to infect your own baby with HIV, press [ok] to cancel or [cancel] to abort operation and report as malware to goggle."

This isn't anticompetitive, is it? Gargoygle is only trying to keep you safe by preventing you from running what you want on your own device. There are no other possible solutions to protect people from malware, dummy! /s

Capitalism seems pretty effective compared to tested alternatives, but it sure does encourage a lot of counterproductive and nasty stomp-and-screw-the-little-people behaviors.

igordebatur 4 years ago | |

The problem is, at least a half of the audience is not tech-savvy, plus Google Play is a part of monopoly: it brings extra traffic. If the app is not on google play, it can't compete with others

duskwuff 4 years ago | |

OP is being denied access to Google Pay payments processing, not to the Play Store.

uncletammy 4 years ago | | |

I was under the impression that one of the conditions to being listed in the Play Store was that all in-app payments had to go through Google. Am I wrong about that?

donclark 4 years ago | | |

Point taken. But if he hosts it himself, could he not use whichever payment processor (except Google Play)?

colinmhayes 4 years ago | |

> Why is that not an option?

Because the vast majority of android users only download apps through the play store.

2mioji33 4 years ago |

You are a direct competitor to Google Maps. So, Google will try to evaporate your business.

igordebatur 4 years ago | |

No, why? RIDERS provides tutorials and tips for action sports. I think you've mixed up us with some other app with a similar name.

chrisp_how 4 years ago |

Google is attempting to claim property control over a non-fidele property; someone else’s, because it claims as the “carrier” it can state that and it be accepted.

Have faith, Google is a defunct business. All law sees Google has disregarded property real-rights many, many times. All parties will receive proper reconsolidation.

It is inconvenient though-hang in there!

mdoms 4 years ago |

You played in someone else's sandbox and now they don't want you there. Too bad. You should have built your own sandbox. Come on man, you knew this.

danlugo92 4 years ago | |

Just build your own trasatlantic submarine cables bro

igordebatur 4 years ago | | |

And then a nuclear power station while you're on it

soared 4 years ago | |

“Why did you build a mobile app? You should have built a new phone, app ecosystem, payment processor, and then an app” - mdoms

ptudan 4 years ago | | |

Wow, you're using compilers someone else designed? Watch out for them changing the assembly, code monkey

mdoms 4 years ago | | |

Build on the open web. Works for thousands of other companies every day.

wvenable 4 years ago | |

If you want to make an app from scratch, you must first invent the platform.

-- Carl Sagan, probably.