Ask HN: Should I move to California or Germany as a SWE with 2 small kids? (pt2)

de_or_ca · 2022-06-16T20:18:34.000Z

I asked this same question a week ago[1]. I got lots of really great perspectives which I very much appreciated. Overwhelmingly, people suggested we move to Bavaria. A couple of responders pointed out (I think rightfully) that the answers may have be skewed slightly due to my having posted around 2pm CET. Most of CA was still waking up.I'd like to ask one last time in a more CA-friendly time. Sorry if posting again is noisy. This will be the last time I ask.I'm at a crossroads in my life. My wife and I are trying to figure out if we should move back to California or move to Germany to be closer to her parents.A bit of background: We're in our mid-30s. Both in tech. I'm a software engineer. She's a product manager. I'm American and she's German. We met in SF in 2014 and left together in 2017. We traveled for a while, then moved to Amsterdam where we live now. We have a 1 year old daughter with another on the way in October. We don't plan on having more kids after that. We'd like to leave the Netherlands soon, but haven't decided yet if we should move back to California or move close to her parents in Germany.There's tons of variables to consider, but the 2 main ones I'm focused on right now is the tradeoff between family support vs career prospects. In short: if we move to Bavaria, my wife's parents would be a huge help with our kids. They're natural and eager grandparents and they're great with our daughter. But, they live in a small village in Bavaria. If we moved to Germany, I assume we'd want to be close to them, so we'd end up in a similarly small village near them.My family is scattered around CA and NY and, while it'd be nice to be closer to them, I don't think we'd get nearly the same kind of natural support network from them. If we did move to CA though, I assume we'd move closer to either my Dad (down in San Diego) or my Mom (around Sacramento).On the career side, I'm assuming our career options and pay would be a lot higher in CA. I work as a senior eng at a large tech company and based on levels.fyi, it looks like my SF colleagues make somewhere between 2 and 4 times what I do. I know money isn't everything, but I've experienced the pain and stress that not having enough causes. I see it with all my family members now. Since moving to the Netherlands, I haven't been able to save or invest nearly as much as I could back in CA. Maybe it's the American in me, or a vestige from my childhood, but I feel uneasy not building more wealth. Money smooths everything over - from relationships, to the options you have available, to the time you can buy with it. But, that additional pay would come at the expense of being more on our own raising our kids, which adds another set of stressors and difficulties. Additionally, for the sake of our kids, we think it'd be good for them to have more involved relatives.Any SWE parents out there who have insights? How hard is it raising kids in CA if you have limited family support? What's your quality of life in CA as a parent? Does cost of living eat up all the additional money I assume we could make? We'd eventually like to buy a house, but the markets seem so crazy that even with the pay raises I wonder if we could swing it.What about quality of life and career prospects in Germany? Anyone living there have any insights? Since we'd be looking at being closer to my wife's parents, I think we'd need to find remote work, so that would also be a limiting factor. I'm assuming we couldn't build as much individual wealth, but perhaps the services of the state compensate enough for that and I should let go of that obsession?[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31653233

toomuchtodo 4 years ago |

If you want to attempt to be wealthy, California. If you want to maximize for quality of life, Germany. Strong support systems in the early years of having children is highly underrated, and there is a reason people expat to Europe when they can afford to.

nextos 4 years ago | |

In EU tech salaries are getting a bit better. Maybe Switzerland is a happy mid-point between the US and EU where you can have great compensation and quality of life? UK can also pay well, in some cases close to CA, and offer a decent quality of life. But definitely a bit inferior to Germany unless you manage to live in some of the nice spots.

There's something which has not been discussed here, although it is perhaps not the OP's priority. As a European, I feel I fit much better culturally in the US rather than in Germanic countries. With the exception of Spain, UK and perhaps Italy.

First, there is no language barrier for me. Second, I feel that foreigners click well. Actually, I feel I am not seen as a foreigner. Whereas in Germany or Scandinavia there is a weird glass ceiling. Maybe big cities like Munich or Berlin are not like this, though.

It has not bothered me much, but some of my foreign friends actually relocated to the US because of this reason.

jamal-kumar 4 years ago |

I'm chiming in again here... Germany 100%. Do you want your kids to live with the elevated risk of getting shot, school shooter drills as casual as fire drills, and then the prospect of the principal of the school being insane and getting one of those surprise active shooter simulation drills? I'm lookin at the situation as it only being a matter of time before a TEACHER snaps and starts bucking away kids with a shotgun after being called a funny name one too many times. That alone would influence my decision to keep my family out of the USA.

secludedrelish 4 years ago | |

As someone who lives in the US, your description is extremely hyperbolic. If you believe what the news cycles have to say after every incident, sure, but it doesn't really affect everyday life for most people.

jamal-kumar 4 years ago | | |

That does not sound very empathetic for the kid's perspective. You might not realize it now but it sounds like next year they're quite likely to massively protest things in your country by simply not showing up.

Do you have children of your own? What are their points of view on the matter?

bwb 4 years ago | | |

Try telling that to kids doing active shooter drills every year. Explain to your young kids why they have to learn to hide in the closet and why their beloved teacher will be outside the closet holding off the shooter.

http-teapot 4 years ago |

Background on me: I am French, I've been living in the Bay Area for the past 14 years, a 2-year old and another on the way, we are recent home owners and grandma lives and helps us every day.

California is expensive. The Bay Area where you'd find high paying jobs is even more expensive. Rent is expensive, home ownership is nearly inaccessible, cost of daycare and healthcare is high, great schools are expensive and taxes are high.

I didn't do the exact math but to give you a ballpark, for us to live well, eat well, save for the future and travel (ski trips or visit family in France), we'd need to earn a combined yearly salary of over $300,000. I think for a household with 2 parents working as SWE it's doable.

That said, based on seniority, your household could probably reach over $200,000 working from Bavaria.

I frequently think about going back but our decision is mostly a factor of the kids growing up around family, in an environment that's empowering them and with great weather. Rain and green pasture sure is pretty but I prefer the sun.

aborsy 4 years ago | |

Can you provide links to websites that engineers get paid 100k in Germany?

My impression is that it’s around 50k. That’s what, for example, car companies or top R & D places pay the best graduates from TUM (I am talking about PhDs with years of experience in advanced engineering).

But OP should also consider health care costs. You still pay 800-900 Euro in Germany (450 paid out of salary and an equivalent amount by the employer, which is essentially taken from salary), and with that you get excellent health care for a single person in US, but things change if you are unemployed. Overall, German health care system is better.

shankr 4 years ago | | |

100K isn't a common salary for entry or mid level but as senior engineers or mangers you can definitely make it. I'm working in Germany. With my bonus I touch just about 100K. I have 10 years of experience though. Although when recruiters contact me and if you mention 100K as your minimum they don't seem very excited about it. Same with companies.

http-teapot 4 years ago | | |

> Can you provide links to websites that engineers get paid 100k in Germany? > > My impression is that it’s around 50k. That’s what, for example, car companies or top R & D places pay the best graduates from TUM (I am talking about PhDs with years of experience in advanced engineering).

I am not familiar with the German market so I wouldn't know. I lead software engineering at a small startup in the US and talk with other CTOs. I think at this point, a lot of US startups will consider any talent anywhere in the world and the exception being legality (for example, companies with clients in the public sector). Salary-wise, it depends on seniority. A very senior engineer could reach Bay Area salaries and I know a few (exception?) who far exceeds those levels. Due to the nature of remote work, junior engineers will have a tougher time so location will definitely be a factor.

b20000 4 years ago | |

i doubt you’ll have much left or be able to buy a decent house with 300k total income in the bay area.

Komodai 4 years ago |

Tricky situation, I'm biased towards EU but I'd say Germany just because you have kids.

shankr 4 years ago |

> What about quality of life and career prospects in Germany? Anyone living there have any insights?

I am not a parent. So I can't say much about that. But economically you will be better off in CA than in Germany anywhere. Yes those kind of jobs exist in Germany but they are very rare. Also lot of money goes out of the pocket towards taxes, health and social security. German housing, especially in big cities like Berlin, Munich etc isn't any cheap either. I suppose since you both are working, you will jointly make enough to afford housing. Finding apartment to rent is hard and expensive.

On the other hand, yes you get good WLB in Germany with vacations ~25-30 days/year range. But I see more and more companies in US are stressing on WLB with unlimited PTO. So you have the possibility of not sacrificing your income at the expense of better benefits/WLB in US. You do have better public transportation in most of the bigger German cities.

If you decide to buy a house you will most probably live outside of any big German city. So the benefit of having good public transportation is also minimized since you will have to own a car. There are buses which connect German suburbs to the city but not often. Still further you move away from the city to suburbs, lesser the frequency of such public transportation.

Based on where you decide to live the appointments with specialist doctors can take quite a long time - like 3-4 months isn't uncommon in bigger cities. It might be faster if you are living in smaller towns.

Finally it's hard to integrate in German society whether it's the difficulty of language or how close knit Germans are. I think this holds for even Netherlands and even large part of Europe. I have never lived in USA but from what I have heard it's bit easier to fit in America than Europe.

smartician 4 years ago |

I grew up in Germany and worked there for eight years, now I'm in California for 15 years. Now that I had children, I'm contemplating moving back, possibly to Zurich, which would allow me to maintain a comparable level of income.

The main thing that's holding me back is the support my wife's parents who live close by are giving us. Without them, navigating the daycare landscape is difficult and extremely expensive. So that would be a huge plus for Germany in your case. In terms of career, California has the obvious advantage, although that advantage is not as strong in Sacramento and San Diego as it would be in the SF Bay Area.

So it all depends on what you value and what your gut feeling says. How do you like Amsterdam?

Another thing to consider: If you have two options and both have strong pros so that it's difficult to decide between them, then either choice will be fine.

andrewshadura 4 years ago |

If you can, stay in the Netherlands. Of the three locations it provides the best quality of life. If not, urban Germany would still be better than California.

keintaugenichts 4 years ago |

Move to Cali, put your kids in a German language immersion school, make and save as much as possible for 3 years, then move back to Germany.

lnwlebjel 4 years ago |

Why not both? I have neighbors - based in CA- who annually visit family in Germany for months at a time. They get long periods of grandparent help, their kids are fluent in German, and they get CA salaries (and costs of living). Given how remote-work friendly many companies are this is more doable than ever.

conformist 4 years ago |

You're probably aware, but just in case...: If you're not a near-native German speaker, having a career and social life in Bavaria are likely very tricky. My guess is that it's an order of magnitude to tougher than in the Netherlands. (I'm German and have non-German friends living in Munich.)

yakak 4 years ago | |

OTOH it's more difficult to learn German to fluency in German speaking places where it's very easy to have a career and social life in English.

ricardobeat 4 years ago | |

You mean Amsterdam, where you can have a social life around other expats / immigrants. Otherwise I believe the difficulty is the same...

lttlrck 4 years ago |

I'm a Brit. I lived in Germany 10 years, now I'm in San Diego (been in the US 12 years).

Life is good, but I miss Germany. More than I miss England. I don't regret leaving as we had our reasons, but if we had stayed, well... I think life would be better, more enriching. Screw the money.

secludedrelish 4 years ago |

Car centered suburbia is a nightmare of living in parts of the US for teenagers. You can't visit your friends without having someone pick/drop you. Not an immediate concern for you, but just something to consider.

savorypiano 4 years ago |

Would you be less likely to be laid off in Germany?

Maultasche 4 years ago |

I used to live in Germany (as a student) before having kids, and now I live in California with kids (around Sacramento), so I'll give my perspective.

It's a tradeoff of money vs family-friendliness.

Germany is definitely more kid-friendly and provides a lot of stuff (events, museums, walking trails, etc) that is found in much lower quantities in California. I've taken my children to Germany a couple of times, and I was always pleasantly surprised at how many things there were for them to do.

The salaries are definitely higher in the US. I don't want to go anywhere near the Bay Area or San Diego due to the cost of living not making the salary increase worth it, so I currently have a remote job with a company based in Mountain View (a fairly small company), but costs of childcare and tertiary education are far higher here than in Germany. When I lived in Germany, the higher education costs were something like $80 a semester, but I hear they've done away with all fees since then.

In Germany, you get a lot more services and a good quality of life, but the salaries are quite low. They're a little higher than the Netherlands on average, but still quite low in comparison to the US.

One thing you may want to consider is that any form of childcare in California is enormously expensive. During the pandemic, a lot of childcare providers went out of business, and the ones that remain are all understaffed. So now childcare spots are difficult to find and very, very expensive. So expensive in fact, that typically most of the salary from one of the parents will go towards childcare.

Housing is really expensive all over the US, and very much so in California. It's hard to afford anything around Sacramento, and it's a lot cheaper than the Bay Area, Los Angeles, or San Diego. I get the impression from the occasional browsing of German real estate that houses are not cheap there either, so I'm not sure which is the better option. I bought my house in late 2008 after housing prices collapsed. I wouldn't be able to afford what I have with current prices.

Having spent some time in small villages in Germany, they are very non-diverse, if that's an issue for you. My kids go to a school with a great deal of diversity. German cities of a decent size tend to be fairly diverse.

I hear the practices of German primary and secondary schools can be hard to learn for those who didn't grow up there, but your wife should already know what's going on, since presumably she grew up there.

Another aspect of life in California that has changed since you left are the almost constant droughts and wildfires. It's way worse now. It used to be rare to see smoke from wildfires in the Sacramento area, but now it's quite common and the air is usually filthy in summer and early fall. In 2020, it got so bad that we had to stay inside for 3 weeks straight and there was ash falling everywhere, even though the nearest fire was at least 150 miles away. 2021 was a little better, but there were times we couldn't go outside because the smoke was so heavy. It's fairly similar all over the state.

Healthcare is way more affordable in Germany and the Netherlands and that is a big plus for me.

We are personally planning to move out of California due to some of these issues. If it weren't for my disabled stepson who is over 18, we'd probably go for Germany or the Netherlands due to the improved quality of life. I have no idea if my kids will be able to afford healthcare when they are old enough to work and I have no idea what their college costs will be.

I advise going to Germany. The salaries are not ideal, but I think that your family would have a better quality of life. Family support is very nice to have.

I don't know how common remote positions are in Germany nowadays. I have seen remote job advertisements that are EU-wide and I have interviewed with companies who hire all over the globe. A US company that is willing to hire from EU countries would be your best bet for getting a better salary, but those jobs aren't the easiest to find.

I don't know where in Bavaria you would be living, but it may be possible to commute to a larger city like Munich (train is the easiest way of commuting, if available), which has a lot of IT-related jobs. The salaries there are higher, but so is the cost of living.

bobobob420 4 years ago |

Obviously california

mtmail 4 years ago | |

Can you elaborate? What are some reasons that make it obvious?

bobobob420 4 years ago | | |

No it is too obvious sorry about that

hash07e 4 years ago |

Let me change your perspective.

How about where you fit better?

Think about:

1. You want to call a friend to drink coffee chat? Which place is better?

2. Your kid is going to school and later do university? Which place is better?

3. Kid is sick and you need a hand where it would be better?

In Europe you will be low middle class for at least 10 years and then middle class for the rest. Considering US standards.

There is no mobility in Europe and even if you are promoted taxes will take care of that.

US is more like a "A la carté" menu. You pay what you ask for. Europe is like a free refill buffet.

It is not only about compensation but how you do perceive freedom, social family and future.

Hope that helps

vhgyu75e6u 4 years ago | |

> In Europe you will be low middle class for at least 10 years and then middle class for the rest. Considering US standards.

> There is no mobility in Europe and even if you are promoted taxes will take care of that.

This is nonsense to the highest level considering we are talking about a family of a PM and a SDE.

OP disregard the parent comment because he is clearly out of his depth talking about life in Europe.

Good SDEs can pick good compensations in Europe to be able to afford a house and more.

hash07e 4 years ago | | |

Now do the salary comparison between an PM + SDE in California vs Germany.

Then taxes[1].

"As shown in the figure, the overall tax burden on wages is roughly 17% higher in Germany than in the U.S. While social security contributions (employer and employee) account for less than half of the U.S. wage tax burden, they account for more than two-thirds in Germany."

[1] - https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/chicago-fed-letter/2...