High property taxes are good(brooock.com) |
High property taxes are good(brooock.com) |
50% of US GDP is about to become US gov't expenditure.
Any houses or value after that should be taxed.
I think that the government constantly threatening to take your basic shelter that that you PAYED FOR already and put you out on the street... even though.. I repeat.. you PAYED FOR THE PROPERTY ALREADY..is outright fascism.
Housing only becomes a good investment if supply is sufficiently limited such that demand can't be met. NIMBYism and decades of artificially low interest rates are mostly to blame here, although I agree that in the short-term, penalties on speculation can help keep costs in line.
> In a better system, property taxes should be relegated to the dustbin because it turns property ownership into property leasing which is antithetical to the idea of private property.
I disagree 100%. Protecting property costs money, and the government is in charge of protecting your property rights. It seems perfectly reasonable that you should have to pay a fee proportional to the value of the property as an "insurance" against its loss.
You mean artificially high interest rates propped up by QE.
The last place I want my money is in a politicians pocket. But this community overwhelmingly supports this concept.
If a slave is taxed at 100% and an indentured servant is taxed at 20% - what does that make you?
These people think the market exists, but really we just have a fucked-up version of socialism that privatizes the profits while subsidizing the risk. It supports toxic industries while fucking everyone else over.
In this case, particularly talking about agriculture and the prison industrial complex... or the huge scam with the covid loans where they just used the money for stock buybacks.
This community is "Hacker News" not "Socialist News" or "Red State".
Government should be able to function much better with much less. And it is no Hackers interest for its footprint to continue its endless expansion.
1. https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/San-Francisco-drug-ov...
Constitutionaliam is a grift run by conservatives to smoke screen their agendas. Nobody argues it in good faith.
Running to the right and embracing authoritarianism is much preferable to the politicians than, say, a general strike and a unionization movement. Which would actually harm the people in power instead of squishing those at the bottom.
I argue it in good faith. I want government to shrink. The constitution should be used as a tool to constrain the size and scope of Government. And with the New Supreme Court it's chipping away at the concept the State can rule by edict. It's an exciting restoration of Democracy.
Today Government spending is 44% of GDP - which is colossal by most measures. In fact It's much larger than the CCP. Government size will shrink either through inflation or default because its debt burden is 130% of GDP. In research done by Hirschmann capital, 51 out of 52 times a country’s debt-to-GDP ratio reached 130%, the country eventually defaulted. The one exception is Japan - whose trajectory doesn't look great today.
Like it or not, you are either fighting constitutionalism or the mathematical force of Gravity. But there is no way Government will continue to expand.
So what the mandate of Fed Gov should be and how long TTL?
Economic mechanisms like this, which don't change anything in the physical world, almost never have any long-term impact, positive or negative, since the economy is a densely-connected network. Findings of large effects depend on stopping accounting somewhere, and you can get positive or negative findings depending on where you stop.
Money juggling is a great distraction from what really matters: physical quantities and actions.
Unless you're paying cash, most people think in terms of what their monthly payment will be. So driving down the price may not make any particular house any more affordable.
At maximum I agree about taxing homes depending on their energy consumption (all sources) to encourage modern house development. But definitively not high taxes on properties. I'm Italian and I've seen the effect of them destroying the market AND pushing people toward crappier and crappier homes. It's not just a personal idea.
In other words, the assetless classes support taxing those with earned fixed assets.
When reframed this way, the article reads to me as a high falutin petty and bitter whine.
All taxes are theft. The only justifiable tax is a tax on consumption and perhaps a tax on children because population increases exponentially. That would take care of all the bundle of taxes and simplify the tax code.
However the arguments feels defective because it uses Chicago as an example. Surely the reason housing is plentiful and affordable in that city is because it has been slowly depopulating for decades and it currently only 75% as populous as it was at its peak.
1. The absolutely staggering incomes at the top top end in NYC make income taxes a more effective revenue source.
2. In addition to property taxes, if you own an apartment in a building, there are a lot of other monthly costs. As I’m writing to this, it occurs to me that they may be completely equivalent to the maintenance costs on a house, but I suspect that condo and co-op boards are not nearly that efficient.
Keeps the riffraff away...and me...but they can afford their roads so...
My in-laws spend more than that but their home is worth more. They've owned it free and clear for like 20 years but they are getting out this year.
Their city used to be full of families, much higher values, lots of great local businesses and some big business headquarters. That's all gone and it's not desirable at all.
The prices are like that due to the labor market and that we've been a blue collar city for the longest time.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200822170417/https://brooock.c...
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FWIW: Chicago has high property tax rate and it does seem to correlate to relatively steady median price movements.
But that is just one example…
There are likely other factors at play in Chicago as well: number of units of supply per capita and quality of public transportation come to mind as two that might have some bearing on housing prices.
I don't own any property myself and am sympathetic to the idea of raising property tax, but many arguments for LVT/raising property taxes don't paint a convincing argument for why property owners should vote against their self interests.
In the United States, people have long seen real estate as a path to wealth (unlike Japan, for example), so it's difficult to reason that people's primary homes shouldn't be their escape hatch into retirement (e.g. the dream of someone buying a house in 1980s Palo Alto and selling it in 2022).
Try living in NY, where effective tax is between 3.5% and 5% (mine is 3.8 in the city of Rochester). It’s really hard for people to become homeowners at that rate, especially when the market goes up and an appraiser can show up at any time and re-assess your value and raise your taxes.
The only way to actually make a good cheaper is to produce more of it.
But home owners don't want their homes to stop increasing in value.
If their was a bill in Congress to magically double the housing supply, I guarantee you it wouldn't pass.
Plus passing a property tax hike won't get you re elected.
With a citizen's dividend the opposite is true, private land ownership is forcing people into homelessness and taking away their contributions to their local community.
That same contract is also in force in the absence of a government monopoly on violence, with the difference that the "and die" part gets implemented far more frequently.
That's why anarchists (of any stripe - left or right) shouldn't be trusted, since what they are really aiming for is to destroy democratic institutions and replace them with an authoritarianism that enforces only their preferences.
In my view the govt necessarily has a monopoly on the use of force which is unavoidable. The important part of the "social contract" is when is it valid for the govt to use that force. The US Constitution originally laid out when the use of that force was moral. Using force to extract tax payment from property owners is not on that list and turns the govt into criminals operating under the color of the law which is terrible situation.
That is because it is Chicago and not SF. Not because of taxes.
The median income, the population density relative to the housing inventory, the weather, the demand, etc.
High property taxes will make housing cheaper, but it wouldn't make housing affordable. Sure that house might only costs 100k but with a 2k per month property tax, no one can afford it.
Property tax is possibly the worst way to fund the government. The only thing it's really good at is imposing a market force. It's largely regressive. In fact it's almost identical to gas tax.
All flat taxes are regressive.
Property tax can be regressive within a community, but can often be progressive within a county/state. Different towns can have different property tax rates. Rich people would actually prefer a higher property tax to a certain degree to keep the poor out. If the avg property tax is 2k a month, then everyone living there needs to make at least 6 figures.
The problem with it though is that it is a very regressive tax, especially in states that get the majority of their income from property tax as compared to income taxes (I'm looking at you Texas).
> They can be adjusted annually based off the needs of a local market
Or, in the case of Texas, a very large portion of property taxes in urban centers ends up as recapture and goes into a state-controlled slush fund. These portions (school taxes) are not actually adjusted at all.
> the money collected from property taxes doesn't evaporate from a local area
See above statement again. This may be true for city-level property taxes though.
> Retirees and low income individuals are often able to make cases to reduce their tax burden
I would disagree with this. There are exceptions written into the law that provide exemptions for some of these groups (which are often abused and disincentivise "good" use), but overall lower-end properties have many more comparables to set value based off of, and tends to be much closer to "market". These residents also don't tend to have the funds to many these arguments, and commission-based tax-appealers don't stand to make much money taking on these cases (the absolute dollar value is relatively low). Further, high-value properties without many comparables are the easiest ones to argue for lower tax burden on.
Finally, when property values actually do decrease (due to central bank action on interest rates, etc) it can be difficult to get the assessed value lowered without an actual sale.
Tldr, the current implementation of property taxes in many locations is extremely regressive.
Also this is all of NY, not just Rochester, that has rates such as these.
It's also a great way for poor neighborhoods to not be able to afford what they need.
Only when the government is authoritarian. You can't vote out a dictator, king, warlord, or mob boss.
This much is demonstrably false, at least where I live. I don't even pay property taxes to the city, I pay them to the county. There's no tie between those funds and my neighborhood. Then, a lot of the taxes are passed from the county up to the state as well, where it's further spread out.
The county is still a lot more local than a bank that might have an HQ across the country and is barely accountable even there. Also, most people's property taxes do go to their town or city, so your sample-of-one is not really a basis for a policy statement.
As such, there's a lot of discussion around lowering property taxes to help these retirees.
In my opinion? Fuck 'em. Property taxes are a brilliant method of perfectly progressive taxation: you can always choose to live in a cheaper home. If your home is so expensive that you can't afford the property tax, downgrade. Those of us who can't afford property will shed no tears.
Sure, the "fuck 'em" attitude has been used by NIMBYs forever. But now we're using it to deprioritise the existing residents that might've sculpted the community. E.g. "Artists who can't the 200% rent increase? Fuck 'em."
Most folks like some sense of stability with their housing. Not everyone's a 20 y/o digital nomad.
The problem is the zoning laws: we don’t allow people to let out part of their property, so they’re forced either to attempt to downsize into a non-existent market, or get evicted for not being able to afford their taxes.
>you can always choose to live in a cheaper home
Here also - you're oversimplifying. Yes, you can always choose to engage in all manner of frustrating, saddening, and burdensome life changes. But it's unfair to imply it is easy. You may cite the burdens of others as justification for forcing such a change, but it's a complicated, emotional, difficult, subjective argument that you do no justice by abbreviating into hostile quips. You sound like you're sure this group of people you're imagining is the enemy, and not simply equal human beings, some of whom may have voted in a selfish way on some policy that arguably increased the strain of the situation. It's simply not enough to justify your tone. It's unrealistic to attack every individual who does not always act in perfect unselfish harmony with the greater society, especially when such balance is impossible to objectively define. I.e. it is reasonable to expect individuals to make various concessions for society, but it is not reasonable to expect people not to fight as hard as they can to keep their home (even though it may ultimately be that they must lose it).
There are multiple ways to reduce the impact of the problem. All of them would reduce property values and some might displace existing homeowners. All redistribution is painful and surely people will lose out, the same way that savers lose purchasing power to inflation. Nevertheless, I think it is a necessary rebalance of a system that has been favoring owning over renting for too long.
(1) Tax on imputed rent when owning (imputed rent should not be pre-tax)
(2) Land Value Tax
(3) Remove the mortgage interest deduction
A caveat here is that many of these people vote against denser zoning in their neighborhood. So, in a way, the appreciation of their primary home is due to factors that they do control.
So your 90 year old grandpa has been living in a two bedroom apartment on the lower east side for 65 years. When he moved in at age 25, it was considered a crummy but affordable neighborhood, but now it's expensive and desirable. You want a 90 year old to have to move? I agree that maybe a 65 year old couple no longer needs to be in a 3,000 square foot home, but there are a lot of cases that make this complicated.
It's cruel, but that same cruelty is deemed acceptable towards 'have nots'.
If he owns, you'd think that he could sell the two bedroom and downgrade to a one bedroom to keep the monthly cost down. Or even a studio. But at some point it's an incredibly desirable, expensive neighborhood and I'm not sure anyone deserves the privilege to live where they want as long as they want.
Move somewhere cheaper.
I'm not sure if you've looked around northern New England recently, but there are practically no cheaper homes left.
The problem comes when a given home goes up in value more then their neighbors, or when one neighborhood increases more than other ones.
This prevents the generational wealth transfer of subsidized senior housing tax rates with the benefits going to next of kin, who sells the asset and receives the proceeds.
The local budget shouldn't change much from year to year, but when values go up, they are quick to reassess high on, many times, artificially inflated values. When values go down, then they aren't too quick to reassess accurately downward.
In this situation, you just end up displacing retirees which is not good.
I'm not talking about having special rules for retirees, just saying the politicians feast when home values skyrocket and cities need to have a reasonable balanced approach to be able to have great services and departments for the community, but not try to optimize for their budget.
So many great cities have been destroyed from high property taxes. They jack up prop taxes, then lose families and are left with mostly older citizens, and there's a breaking point and they leave.
Home values plummet along with property taxes. So what they thought might be good for the community ended up being a poor decision.
Also property taxes are not perfectly progressive. Only areas with nice homes have good schools.
You seem to believe the fallacy that not being able to afford a home is other homeowners fault, and not due to poor government planning (likely by the same politicians you willingly vote for.)
I am uninformed in this game, so this is not a statement by me: However i've been told that one issue is squatters, land being used purely as investment and with low costs you can easily afford to buy land and squat it till a time when you later sell it in the market.
As someone looking to buy land to build a home on, i've noticed quite a lot of property seemingly being used purely for investment. Flipped through the years for profit with no real added value, in an area of the country (PNW) that is very, very expensive due to limited supply. It is very cheap to keep land, tens of dollars a year for 10 acres (the lot size i'm familiar with) iirc.
Inhibiting this behavior seems beneficial.
Though i imagine more interesting (than simply "high") taxes could help more. Ie something like a higher tax on unimproved and uninhabited land. Encourage usage, not squatting.
But.. i don't know anything here. I just have experience looking to buy land, and watching what goes up for sale.
So if they collected $10m last year, and will collect $10.1m this year, it doesn't matter if the houses have tripled in value, you'll pay roughly the same dollar amount.
People think doubling house value doubles property tax, but the bill could go down if double is less than the average increase for the area.
At least you’re honest about how you want to wield the cudgel.
If there are cheaper homes for these privileged retirees to move into, why don't you buy those homes yourself?
I’m where I live it costs $40-$50k / acre up to $150k / acre. 30 min away it’s $3-4k / acre.
I personally am opposed to property taxes. I think it basically implies rent of the land. Then again, I’m basically opposed to all taxes except tariffs and perhaps licensing fees.
For instance, you could implement a licensing fee to use the public roads. Or add a tax on import / export of goods across the protected border(s). But beyond that I view all taxes as far too intrusive. Why should my land be assessed? Why should I provide any details to the government so they can tax me? The “government” is infact my “neighbors” and I simply don’t think it’s their business what my assets are.
That's already implied from the existence of land deeds and the enforcement thereof: you're renting a subset of a nation-state's sovereign territory.
a) NH (like CA) didn't revalue land for property tax purposes as long as you continue to own it.
b) NH had a generous homestead exemption based on the median of the area in which you live.
If the area was underutilized when they bought in cheap, they earned their windfall. I hope they didn't prevent apartment buildings from being built in their area.
Imagine you bought a house and worked diligently for 30 years to pay it off. Now in retirement your cost of living skyrockets, through no fault of your own, such that you can no longer afford to live there in your 70s and 80s. How is that in any way fair or just?
What about the people who couldn't get a loan in the 1940s-70s because of redlining and ended up having to rent for the same amount of time?
All of this "empathy" talk hides real wealth redistribution towards property owners. Just holding on to a piece of property should not increase your share of real productive capital disproportionately.
Hard to take stuff like this seriously.
Wouldn't you also consider anyone buying a "starter home" a speculator? Their goal is to continuously flip their house.
on balance, the housing price appreciation, and therefore tax burden, on "these people" is functionally entirely due to external macroeconomic factors, which you can clearly see on the Zillow Housing price index by typing in "New Hampshire" or any relevant zip code: https://www.zillow.com/home-values/
The average NH home increased $7k-$10k in value per year linearly for the last 10 years!
Then it increased $25k Jan '20 -> Jan '21.
Then it increased *$53k* Jan '21 -> Jan '22.
10 years worth of price appreciation, and therefore tax appreciation, occurred in a 2 year window.
I understand many people have a pet housing policy issue they care about, but trying to attribute this step-function change in tax burden to "New Hampshire zoning laws" and "these people" as opposed to the massive increase in demand caused by Covid urban flight/WFH & relaxed monetary policy is completely unreasonable.
And mine is that a lot of (and maybe most) 90 year olds wouldn't need to move. The ones who would be motivated to move are also largely the ones who are wealthy enough to do so.
The "system" and governments frequently prefer angry people direct their rage at other citizens instead of them! QED
Yes agreed, though I do think people conflate things and vilify wrong targets, which sounds a lot like the OP.
E.g. in California it's en vogue to rail against "Prop 13" without considering why it was passed, or how it helps people on fixed incomes remain in their homes. , or more importantly how the financialization of homes has made things bad globally.
Personally I am in favor of systems that discourage speculative investment but encourage homeownership. This can be done without indiscriminately punishing people for realizing gains in the market value of their domicile. One such mechanism could be offering incentives or tax breaks that require the buyer to use the home as their primary residence for a certain amount of time.
I think having the opportunity to own the land you personally live on is a right. Owning land on which others reside but not yourself should be considered a privilege, and privileges always come with strings attached.
He bought the house by working for a living. The "fuck 'em, give me his house" argument isn't convincing me.
Maybe 65 is too young for retirement age, but I certainly feel that there is an age at which old people should start getting special privileges, like the right to not have to move. And the rest of us can wait our turns and hope that we get to take advantage of those privileges some day.
Second, if the neighborhood gentrified around grandpa, his house value has gone up - he can sell at a good profit and use the money for his retirement as he wishes.
Third - consider the counterfactual renter who was living in the same place and working just like grandpa, but had to move at the age of 60 because he couldn't afford the rent anymore. Why does grandpa get to stay but the other person, who is a renter with the same life story get forced out of the neighborhood?
Grandpa has a senior exemption that reduces his property tax, and if he is also low-income he also gets a senior tax freeze that keeps his taxes low enough to pay them. If his health was failing and things were really, really tight money-wise he could apply to not pay his taxes at all and instead put a lien on his property that gets paid when he passes and the kids sell it.
High taxes don't have to be cruel. The real question is - what are they doing with the money? Are you getting a good value from your taxes? I mean, everyone knows that these governments are wasteful. But they are still spending the money on things. It's happening. Do you get any value from that?
I just moved out of Chicago last year. I am not going to claim that Chicago is well run or a model of efficiency. But they have a lot of programs that they spend money on. The library system in Chicago is incredible. It is undeniably world class. Where I live now, youth hockey costs $500 for a session. In Chicago, it was $175 - with better coaches and the random NHL player showing up to show how to do drills and such. Piano lessons cost twice as much. The list goes on. But you know, grandpa is probably not taking piano lessons or playing hockey. So maybe he's not getting the best deal. I don't know.
I don't think this is a good example of why all grandpas will have to move eventually. We're not in a world war, at least not officially, and certainly not at all points in history.
For instance suppose when Grandpa was a young man in 1950 he bought a used 1940 Martin D-45 guitar for a little under $400. That's equivalent to around $4800 in today's money.
He's still got that guitar and has kept it in good shape. Vintage D-45s from 1942 and earlier go for insane amounts on the collector market, and he could sell that for over $100k, probably over $150k.
Why should Grandpa have the privilege of owning a vintage 1940 Martin D-45 as long as he wants when so many other people who would like to play a vintage D-45 cannot afford too despite being working musicians?
Should we therefore have a periodic instrument value tax on musical instruments to keep people from keeping their instruments too long? Grandpa can sell the vintage D-45 and use a fraction of the proceeds to buy a new acoustic guitar or even hire a luthier to build him a custom guitar so its not like having to give up his 1940 D-45 would keep him from having a guitar.
You'll grow older and possibly understand. There are things that must be experienced, they can't be learned in any other way.
False equivalence. There's no reason you have to be cruel to either.
You can always build more housing or provide financial services to help poorer people buy homes. Or just, you know, lower the cost of homes so property taxes don't have to be astronomical and force older people out of their homes to begin with.
If housing costs and property taxes are so high it forces older people out, I don't see how that somehow benefits poor people anyway. They still can't afford those stupid expensive houses.
At the edge of town? Why shouldn't we build more housing in the city center?
[1] In practice and as a primary means of property taxation. For example, proponents of wealth taxes talk about Switzerland, but the percentage of wealth that gets taxed there is quite small and nowhere near what proposals for wealth taxes in the US are aiming for. In other words, what's a good country to look at to see LVT used effectively?
Georgism[1], which I'm fascinated by. One way to organise it is to ask people how much tax they're willing to pay, from which the land value can be derived (as that's the real point of assessing land value for someone who isn't willing to sell that's the real order of things). However, if someone bids on the land for that price you must sell.
> Are there any good examples of governments that use LVT in practice?
I thought there were only one or two places using LVT but it appears there are quite a few[2], but it's rarely pure LVT.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax#Implementation
Had a good summary of land valuation problems
There is a risk that the government will increase taxes such that people can't declare high land prices, which allows the government to buy up land for cheap. I haven't found a mechanism for that yet.
Fight over increased property taxes in Texas becoming political https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUwoFVUc_I
Texas voters to decide on 2 propositions that could impact property taxes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz67VXkjRfg
It seems like the Texas Homestead Exemption Act is starting to morph into something analogous to Prop 13. Perhaps if there's enough growth in tech jobs (and more billionaires start hiding out there) they'll end up with an income tax like California and New York.
It might in theory make a difference when considering replacing a 40 story building with a 42 story one, but in practice you really don’t see that kind of construction project. In that context pushing for larger jumps before replacement might actually be economically and environmentally beneficial.
Low property tax (because it's unimproved) plus real estate speculation.
The problem, just like the source says, is that the tax is too low, not mention the absolute disaster that is Prop 13 in California.
I could get on board with this if cost to build and demolish were considered. We have a lot of SFHs that don't make sense to turn into town homes yet because the value of the home on property + demolition costs + cost to build new townhomes on property is greater than what those townhomes could sell for.
More to the point, a blind land value tax could create a lot of waste through otherwise unproductive land repurposing (only productive because the tax makes it so).
Zoning usually dictates what's allowed and is indifferent to tax rates
Japanese-style inclusionary zoning splits the difference nicely between making sure people don't live next to loud, potentially dangerous industry and allowing lots of mixed-use, human scale developments of varying density.
http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html
A mortgage acts like this too and if the tax was insignificant by comparison it would seem so fair but at least a mortgage can eventually be paid off in full. Then the bank no longer has an interest but the taxman never stops.
Taxes always go up but economic fortunes do not, when these become out-of-phase the original purpose is fulfilled.
This is what makes people demolish perfectly good buildings to reduce the taxable value of their property while they try to hold on to the land during a downturn.
Mortgages don't make people act like this.
For the greatest prosperity of the average citizens in a sustainable system, you tax nothing but commerce.
The purpose of taxing the income or property of average citizens is to repress opportunity for the majority.
This is by design.
We pay high property taxes (which are split value taxes, by the way) relative to other rural areas in the region. That is, we are taxed for the virtue of owning relatively large plots of land (for our area) that come with the protections afforded by the zoning laws--even though our sparsely-developed properties and the characteristics thereof provide benefit to all in our area, including city dwellers (e.g. readily available and clean drinking water, maintaining a healthy ecosystem), for which a value could be assessed that would result in lowering our taxes.
That said, I purchased the property specifically for the Resource Conservation zoning protections, as did my neighbors--and we'd have the zoning laws set no other way regardless of the cost of doing so.
Trying to jam more people into the same finite amount of space is not a sustainable solution (here's looking at you, Bay Area). A byproduct of the recent pandemic was that a significant number of people beta tested relying on technology to get their job done independent of where they were physically located. I would argue it generally worked quite well (though not in all cases).
Though a more ambitious plan than merely increasing taxes and hoping that more housing is developed, why not incentivize people to move to less populated area with the intent of promoting a more-even distribution of population density over time; incentivize medium and large businesses to either permit remote work or establish and maintain local/regional offices if remote work is not conducive to their lines of business or their corporate culture; and fund timely development of new and improvement of existing infrastructure that would make previous two goals achievable?
USA has about 2.5 billion acres. 1/4 acre per person in an average area tax free is reasonable.
I don't see how that's relevant, not all land is equally well suited for housing, especially among the elderly who are likely to need some sort of living assistance and regular access to healthcare.
property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free.
I think something like California's Prop 13 that puts a cap on property tax increases is a better idea -- but it should only apply to owner occupied primary residences, not second homes or investment properties.
The more reasonable approach to this would be discounts for the primary residence, and possibly discounts for populated units, depending on if you are targeting home owners / overall population and housing cost.
Quarter acre per family might make sense across the US as a whole with large swathes of empty land across the middle, but it makes no sense if you look at the average individual given the percentage of the country living in urban areas.
A fixed mille-rate results in taxes going up as value goes up. This might be difficult to plan for and manage. However, many cities will simply put a lien on the property and collect when the property is sold/transferred/person dies.
However, this isn't necessarily how things need to be done. In New Zealand, the mille-rate is set to clear the budget. That way, the mille-rate changes with the city's budget, not valuations.
If the city wants to do more, they put it into the budget and say "do you want to pay for it?". Then the mille-rate is changed and everyone's taxes change.
If your house changes value, your taxes don't change! Unless your neighborhood changes its relative valuation, then it might go up or down.
In fact, my current area (Cobb county, GA) nimbys keep trying to block assisted living residences. The argument is that old people move in, don’t pay into local funds, but the burden is hoisted on other younger families instead.
The lack of property/land value taxes hurts anyone who isn't retired. I care much more about poor young people who get priced out of moving to a better job in the city than an old person who is "forced" to sell their multi-million dollar single family home. If an old person insists on living in a place where they can't afford property taxes, there are plenty of people willing to pay their property taxes until they pass in exchange for a stake in equity of their home.
When LVT is used to fund UBI, that ability is automatic: the "break even" point (where your taxes minus dividends are zero) would represent you owning a "reasonable amount of land" (as measured by value). If you own more than that, you pay for it; if you own less than that, you're paid for it.
A quarter acre in Palo Alto, though?
Examples are California Tax Postponement Program and New Jersey senior freeze.
Land value tax incentivises turning a single-family home into a multi-unit building. Property tax explicitly discourages that.
One taxes the land and the building(s) on it. The other only taxes the former.
In practice, this means that while property taxes and land value taxes both penalize speculation, LVTs more precisely do so, without the side effect property taxes have of penalizing construction.
> However better-looking homes are then a signal that drive up demand for (and therefore price of) land so ultimately it seems LVT does punish improvements if only indirectly.
Even assuming that effect does happen, it'd be considerably worse under a property tax.
Edit: As a weird example, subtracting what it would cost to build my California house from its current market value gives a value for the lot far lower than the actual market price of an empty lot in this location. This isn't just due to the depreciation of the construction (2012) but to market inefficiencies. It's actually the norm in our town. Only developers with economies of scale can really afford to build here, modulo a few wealthy families who are building their dream home without concern for ROI.
is routinely done in countries in which variants of land value tax are implemented.
Retrofitting or tearing down a house in California is expensive. Particularly if it's an old house where there could be e.g. lead or asbestos. Clean lots (presuming it wasn't previously a laundromat) command a value from the baggage they clearly don't bring.
Isn't that like saying income tax disincentives people from making more money.
"The high cost of property taxes have long pushed away speculative investors as it has pushed the carrying cost beyond what is profitable to hold as a passive investment long-term."
Alright, so now the speculative buyers are gone and we're dealing with ordinary home buyers that actually occupy their home. These genuine owners are paying high property taxes. Next:
"This has led to is a glut of high quality housing at very low prices. The amount of money one needs to save up for a downpayment in Chicago on a 2BR in the city center is 5x lower than in San Francisco or New York."
How does specifically a high property tax for genuine buyers lead to lower prices? Because of less demand from speculators? If so, why not just get rid of speculative buying (simply make it illegal)? What does it have to do with property tax for ordinary citizens?
And what on earth does Chicago have to do with San Francisco or New York?
A tremendous amount of our problems, from high rent to gridlock, can be traced back to this decision.
Ok you've forced a bunch of house painters and restaurant owners to sell and move out. More tech workers buy the houses, more large chains buy the retail space, now what?
No, it didn't. California just kept adding taxes everywhere else to make up the difference and still had an annual deficit most of the 13 years I lived there.
> It saved seniors from losing their houses
Why are seniors magically allowed to be immune to basic market forces when no one else is?
> Property taxes discourage construction, maintenance, and repair because taxes increase with improvements. LVT is not based on how land is used.
From https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2019/3/8/if-the-land-tax...
> The problem is that the land tax component of a traditional property tax is too small to deter land speculation. Although property taxes vary from place to place, they are typically between 1% and 2% of the property's total value paid annually. If inflation is low, then for longtime property owners, this amounts to roughly the same cost as if they paid a one-time sales tax on the property of between 10% and 20%. Thus, the property tax applied to building values inflates their price by between 10% and 20%. And the property tax applied to land value allows 80% to 90% of publicly-created land value to accrue as a windfall to landowners. Thus, typical land taxes are too weak to discourage land speculation.
Etc. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=economist+land+use+vs+property+tax...
First we came into battle with the school district. They would not allow us to build apartments on the mall site because "renters don't contribute to property taxes for the school", even though the citizens of this town need rentals because not everyone can afford a home. It then came to light that the city had been paying the school district out of their operating budget... which is illegal, schools can only be funded by property taxes. But would any politician want to go to war with the school district because they had accidentally been paying them illegally with taxpayer dollars? No way, they'd be voted out for attacking schools. So the school district continues draining the operating budget from the city to this day, while also getting their share of property taxes.
Enter the county assessor. We went back through all the assessment records and discovered that the county assessor had not re-assessed the commercial properties in the area for 8 years... meanwhile jacking taxes up on single family homes annually. Essentially they were giving businesses a freeze on property taxes while shifting the burden onto homeowners. If the county wasn't reassessing commercial real estate, than our TIF development couldn't demonstrate growth as the taxes would not change! So we tried to shake the hornets nest and let the county and city know that their taxpayers were being taken advantage of...
What was the end result? Why had they not been reassessing commercial properties? Incompetence, the assessor was some idiot who was voted in because he had the "D" next to his name and did not know anything about assessing property taxes and argued that he was simply "too understaffed" to assess commercial properties for the last 10 years.
Now imagine a whole country where massive, expensive errors like this can play out without anyone noticing for nearly a decade... it's frightening how broken, corrupt, or incompetent our government is in the United States.
(Property taxes are a real problem where I live; we're an upper-middle-class enclave directly adjacent to the roughest part of Chicago, and affordability issues prevent people in Chicago from moving across the border to get our services. In the world we actually live in, annexing the Village I live in would make more public policy sense than raising property taxes, which gives you a sense of how clumsy those taxes are as an intervention.)
Take Texas as an example. Up until this last year at least, Texas had relatively low property values but high property taxes. But high property taxes on a $200,000 house aren't the end of the world.
But here's a big one: in Texas, seniors (65+) can defer their property taxes to be settled upon their death. This allows seniors to stay in their house if they really want but incentivizes seniors to downsize to avoid passing on that liability onto their children.
This is exactly what you want.
Compare that to California, for example. "But what about the Seniors?" led to Prop 13, which was a massive tax giveaway to Disney and affluent property holders. Capping property taxes deprives the state of taxes to fund services for no good reason.
Even worse, when your children inherit that house, they inherit the house on a stepped up basis (meaning they pay no capital gains tax and the capital tax base gets reset to the market value so if you sell immediately you won't pay any CG tax) and children and grandchildren can inherit the artifically low property tax rates.
New York has a different set of problems. A big one is that single family homes are subsidized. A $1m SFH will pay less than half the property tax of an equal value condo. And there's all sorts of caps on property taxes on SFHs too.
Additionally a $100m condo only pays about 10-15x the property tax of a $1m condo in NYC.
I'm a big fan of making property speculation less lucrative. High property taxes are a good thing. We need to stop giving away money under the auspices of "but what about the Seniors?"
Grandchild -> child is readjusted to market rate property taxes. Only parent -> child IFF both are and continue to be primary homes, does it receive the previous tax treatment.
Oh yeah, and the higher tax gets passed to the renter/leasee in higher rents and is a further disincentive to usage and investment.
However, don’t understand how you are linking constitutional protection of property ownership with tax rates… it is obviously not an absolute because we do pay property taxes… so this is a matter of degrees.
Free society chooses to find the right level. It does not imply negation of bill of rights…
Taxing and taxing higher on property is an assault on our ability or “own” property which is a freedom. Free societies have property ownership. Higher taxes whilst monetary devaluation seems like the system now wants to take away our ability to own things.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_the_Fed
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/570895-the-debate-we-sho...
The Georgist proposal is that you should own all the fruit of your personal labour (no income tax) but that the proceeds of the labour of society should be returned to society at large, through a land value tax that captures the rental value of the land.
The current status quo in most countries is that you can own a piece of land in the middle of a metropolis and do no labour, and yet reap significant reward. This is in essence a theft from society, as the citizens of the metropolis are labouring and building capital that creates value for the piece of land, yet the land-owner proportionally does very little to create value for their land. If you want to discourage theft and encourage keeping the fruits of your labour, the Georgist proposal is fantastic.
By taxing it, it provides disincentive for people to use it as an income generating or speculative asset.
We shouldn't view housing as a way to "get rich" but housing actually provides much better utility if it's price is stable and not prone to boom bust cycles. Since more people would be able to buy at any given time for their budget if prices stay low.
Yes, local politics is inherently more tailored, but it's also more vulnerable to conflicts of interest. Most local town councils are controlled by an oligopoly of the loudest homeowners who will vote down anything that is perceived to impact their home prices. The people who want affordable housing are not part of the voting quorum because they do not live or own the neighborhood.
In other words, don't say the quiet part out loud!
"x% LVT, y% Improvements tax on all properties with 50% reduction for your primary residence"
Would be great.
Especially if you were lured here by some VC who sold you a metric ton of variance and went to the bank with the drift. But hey, they're on your side with the whole zoning thing.
When you strip away the politics and bogus economics, house pricing is just the adult version of lunch table drama. That drama is actually a microcosm -- everyone in the cafeteria was selected at the real estate level.
You may have been raised to think you could be elite, but only a small minority can be. And if you're downvoting comments because they imply you're not...
It is cruel, but changing it would require far more drastic measures than proposed here.
Something like, if 10 or 20-year US Treasury bond pays more than you'd make being a landlord and you expect little to zero asset appreciation, then there is no incentive getting into real estate.
And it's possible to discourage house flipping by introducing some sort of friction. Like a high tax of some sort that is applied only if you sell sooner than X number of years (let's say 5)
Not necessarily. I've learned that at least in Toronto, the property tax rate is derived from the budget instead of the other way around. Let this article explain: https://torontoist.com/2016/12/how-property-taxes-work-toron...
> With sales and income taxes (which can only be levied provincially and federally) governments establish a tax rate, and then see how much money that brings in.
> Each year municipalities decide how much money they need to bring in, and then set their property tax rates accordingly, to ensure they collect the requisite sum. They start from the total they need to raise, in other words, and work backwards to figure out what tax rate will yield that amount.
Because of this "backward" system of tax calculation, if every single building doubled in value, the tax rate will be halved, and the city will receive the exact same revenue.
So if you raise the property tax rate more than what it should "naturally" be, what will you do with the budget surplus? What will you spend it on?
This a foundational industry that pitted the upstate New Yorkers and the agrarian Virginians against Alexander Hamilton at almost every corner of his life in the establishment of free markets disruptions with the Bank of New York and later the Department of Treasury.
Disruption can be seen in vertical markets of big cities and land creation like that of China in the South China Sea with man-made islands and expansion of territorial rights, but outside of that it's golden age is gone and the taxation will only become more intrusive for programs as our populous grows and the need to extract support for the expansion from the adult working class is through taxation.
Hopefully this isn't rambling, but rather insight into how perverse the market has become because of no more land, and way more people.
Any market will run into this fundamental problem. The issue is apriori to market facillitated resource allocation systems. Whatever unit you use to represent value or as the unit of transaction; it will inevitably centralize once demand starts outstripping supply, and rent extraction becomes an effective capital amplifier.
It's the magic of power laws. Everybody without capital assets pays everyone who has it. Those with it lift the prices by virtue of the fact they too are factored into average buying power amongst the potential set of transactors. That justifies higher asks, which decreases your non-capital owning members supply of transaction medium to devote to acquiring more capital which increases your rent extractors capability to diversify, rinse, repeat.
There. Is. No. Escape. Except estate taxes, assuming no immortal legal fictions. In the presence of such, you're hosed for recreating a level playing field for latecomers.
no matter how much your home is worth today or in ten years you and other in the community want a standard level of education, safety, and services from your local governments. this should be priced as a service based on the cost to provide it to the members of the community and not based on dynamically changing home values
property taxes should have a baseline cost to cover the essential services (schools, critical infrastructure, safety, etc.) that is the same for everyone (no exemptions) and a variable cost for the non-essential services (parks, beautification projects, etc.) (very limited exemptions) that can be based on the value of your home or land
this way the essential services are always funded and not impacted by economic downturns or property appraisal disputes/challenges and local governments don't have to play the game of increase the millage rate to make up costs for essential services
Also the claim that Chicago even has high property taxes for housing isn't really true. See here: https://www.rosenfeldinjurylawyers.com/news/chicago-property... and here: https://www.lincolninst.edu/sites/default/files/pubfiles/50-...
Currently trapped renting in a high property tax area because the monthly tax bill would be as high as the mortgage payment. This rent trap is starting to feel real permanent because any raise in the property tax just gets passed through to the renter when they raise the rent each year.
* https://taxfoundation.org/how-high-are-property-taxes-in-you... ** https://resources.oxfordeconomics.com/hubfs/Housing_affordab...
Yes, but this (obviously) doesn't mean this housing is more affordable. It's not. Sure the razor is less but the blades (i.e., taxes) count as well. Both come out of the same pocket, so to speak.
Housing prices are a function of affordability, and that is the collective sum of all associated payments, not just mortgage.
So while we're on the topic, this is why the "college loan debt means more people can't afford to buy" logic (?) doesn't work. Eliminate that debt and prices will go up. Why? Simple! Because the market can bear higher prices.
Roughly the same can be said for raising the minimum wage. Eventually, housing will eat that up as well. It just takes longer because leases are one-year cycles (and perhaps other local rent-increase limits).
What we need is more supply. The only way to truly lower prices is to increase supply. Anything else is smoke & mirrors.
- Some cities are already getting into vacancy taxes; here the problem seems to be enforcement. No one's going door to door in luxury condo buildings looking for empty ones.
- Can a tax due when a property is sold be based on how long the seller owned the property? If you lived there for 20 years and now you're moving to downsize, you pay a low rate. If you held it for 9 months to renovate and flip it, pay a high rate.
- Can a tax rate due when a property is sold be based on the number of homes the seller has been purchased in the past 5 years? If you've been a resident homeowner, low rate. If you're a development company bought subdivision land and is now able to sell dozens of houses, low rate. If you're a speculator who has bought several homes, and are flipping them, high rate.
Like you pointed out vacancy taxes are very difficult to actually enforce.
If taxes are based on how long you have owned the property maybe instead of selling the property I give you a transferable 20 year rent to own lease or create a corporation that owns the property and sell you that corporation so that the ownership never changes.
If taxes are based on how many properties you purchase in a year then maybe you create a separate corporation that purchases each property. No single entity has purchased more than one home.
I am not a lawyer and these examples probably aren't that good, but I think you get the point. The simpler the rules are the harder they are to work around.
I agree that simpler rules are generally harder to work around.
_However_, I notice that argument is almost always made to claim that governments shouldn't try to change behavior in line with the preferences of their electorate. Tax laws have loopholes, regulations have loopholes and push jobs and industries overseas, etc. The logical end point seems to be that democratic processes are doomed to be ineffective and we should just trust everything to the invisible hand of the market.
What if the real problem is that the mindset that improving policy is so hard that governments shouldn't even try, itself dooms us to bad policies?
What if 20 years ago we had all said, "making complex rules to identify and block spam emails is too hard; there will always be some way for the spammers to get through. So let's not waste resources on it."
If we're going to pick a means of collecting the same amount, encouraging good use of land and discouraging excess consumption seem like nice side effects.
Speculators are forced to sell, because the cost of keeping too many houses locked down is high and starts to show on their books, so they have to explain it to the investors, that go away unsatisfied, and so on.
Of course, that only makes a difference if there are many unused houses.
Also the idea is that as prices fall, the absolute value of the tax falls, but speculators still do not have a motivation to buy them, because the price isn't expected to rise.
> If so, why not just get rid of speculative buying (simply make it illegal)?
Because you will need an entire book of rules, that lawyers will use to get a lot of money, and rich people will use to make the tax not apply to them. (But there are some simple rules that can only be gamed a bit. Maybe those are enough.)
Nobody is willing to pay as much up front for housing that has higher ongoing costs.
So how come there's ample low cost high quality housing in Chicago?
The same remark applies to home owners. Your property won't rise in value, so why buy it? You must really want to live in the area, I guess.
And yes, I know the point of a house is to live in it, but almost everywhere it has a double function in also being an appreciating retirement fund.
For now my theory is that a lot of speculative supply got dumped, leading to a one time effect.
Obama should have let the bankers twist in the wind when the citizenry was out for blood in 2008. They repaid him by channeling money to Republicans. Put them all in jail.
In general, as costs go up, the more there is incentive to try to cater to wealthier customers.
Homeowners are concerned with the size of the deposit required, the size of the loan needed, and ongoing costs (inc taxes). This tax will likely mean a smaller deposit and loan than would otherwise be the case. This could be offset by higher ongoing costs by the property tax.
For a speculator, they have the same concerns as a homeowner, but most significantly the potential for capital gains. Yield also comes into it, but let's face it - without strong capital gains no one would be paying these prices (homeowners included).
Lower potential for capital gains effects speculator demand more than homeowner demand.
Not if the tax base goes down. Which is the point.
> If so, why not just get rid of speculative buying (simply make it illegal)?
This makes the lawyer rich too. It’s not a smash-and-grab at a Walgreens. You can’t put real estate cops on every deal. If price is expected to go up, people will speculate.
I also doubt that developers would bother with a market like the one described. Why not go to some other state/city where construction costs are low and property taxes are also low?
General contractors don't just do general contracting, and it's not like tech where you can pick up and move anywhere there's internet.
Why not make property tax cumulative with the amount of property owned and impose a progressive tax here? It would have an equalizing effect on ownership and speculation would be less attractive for those that already own o lot of properties.
Sure, you have to fix a lot of holes to circumvent taxes so that not every company creates a large amount of holdings, but such strategies are a problem with every tax.
To now say a high property tax would scare away investors doesn't sound workable at all.
This was such a laughable comparison because BOTH of these cities have high property taxes compared with more affordable cities in other states.
I rented a house once in West Portal where the landlord was paying property taxes on the 1970 value of the home, which was something like $70k. The owner was gifted this house and taxes basis from their parents, who originally bought it. The tax bill came out to just a few thousand dollars as of 2020.
Meanwhile my neighbor at the time bought their house for $3m and was paying something like $35k.
I thought about writing the property taxes in front of each house on the sidewalk with sidewalk chalk to make a point how messed up this tax policy is, but I opted instead to keep the peace and do nothing.
This loophole is used by families in CA as a way to pass assets to their heirs. The worst part is the tax rate also gets passed down, but one generation tops.
As a result, my neighbor has a house with an effective tax rate of <0.1% ($3,000/yr on a single family house worth >$3M).
I'm less familiar with San Francisco, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had low property taxes due to Prop 13.
For instance, there's loads of large family houses being occupied by empty-nesters, while those trying to raise a young family are squashed into undersized townhouses.
Shifting the cost-base from "pay a huge mortgage and a tiny property tax" to "pay a moderate mortgage and an moderate property tax" means it's more likely to be worth the hassle of moving to a smaller house when you no longer need the space.
If the tax is high in a location where they think they can flip the house for a 50% gain in a few years that's still better profit than a lower tax in a place where they'll gain 5% in a few years. So the property tax doesn't, all by itself, matter to the speculator. It's just a cost of doing business.
A high property tax does, however, hurt the person who just wants a house to live in it and doesn't care about being a speculator.
How do you propose to do that in the US?
Unlike first-time buyers, though, for whom asset inflation is itself strictly a tax (paid by them, to seniors, but far more so, banks and investors), price inflation of an asset you already hold is free money.
It's highly distortionary.
Land value tax discourages holding vacant or under-built property, at the expense of lowering the cost of the land. This means existing homeowners won’t be able to sell their old homes for as much as they could if fewer surrounding properties are developed (more modern, better built, larger, with more units), because their old home is closer to being worth the raw value of the land.
If you want to sell a $50,000 home for $500,000 because it sits on land that grew from being worth $10,000 to $450,000, then a LVT is terrible for you: you need to put in actual work improving your property rather than just sitting on a decrepit old building and selling it for a profit. The problem in the US is that the voters who mostly own their home can’t stomach their home value decreasing: that reduces their paper wealth as well as their ability to take out loans and second mortgages for things like college or car payments. So politically it’s a hard solution to push for (even if, on net, it would help the community be stronger).
Check out all the different tax rates that Wellington, New Zealand applies to a property [1]. I count 50!
[1] https://wellington.govt.nz/property-rates-and-building/rates...
If anything, this sounds like a system working, and you doing a bit of whining. Yeah, there's political game playing, that's called the price of localism and democracy.
It's the exact opposite of the system working. It's people being given power because of their party rather than their qualification and it indicates a greater sickness in politics in which we have become binary sports fans rooting for our team no matter the cost or quality of the candidate.
To be fair I have no clue how broken property taxes are in Europe or Japan or other first world places, but this ordeal was eye opening to me having grown up assuming our local governments were held to a higher standard.
It'll also allow the government to bully anyone they want by evicting them, even if the price were fair. Local reporter digs up dirt on city council? Well, the city council just reviewed property tax claims, and decided that the reporter's house is "undervalued".
I moved from an ostensibly low tax state, Texas, to one with an income tax but my overall burden for state costs is pretty much the same or slightly lower as property taxes are low and there is no sales tax (8%+ in Texas).
I was paying over $1500 month in property taxes in Houston burbs.
They’ll get you somehow!
https://tax.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/571/~/i-don...
source? On one hand they could be as you said, but the alternative could be that investors think that "cheapest of the big 6" makes real estate there undervalued and therefore a good investment.
Japan home ownership: 61%
Yet there is such a housing crisis in the states due to the "zoning" bogeyman
Part of the point is to very deliberately say: we don't know, we'll let each neighbourhood build what works for that neighbourhood rather than trying to figure out ahead of time.
> As I've explained elsewhere, if that means packing as many tiny units together in an urban core rather than a mix of bachelor pads and family-suitable living spaces, than that drives families out of urban centers and encourages urban sprawl, which creates terrible commutes and traffic and all subsequent problems.
How do you figure that? For a fixed population, the larger the proportion of workers in the center, the shorter the average commute and the less bad the traffic. So 4 bachelors in the urban core and 1 family in the suburbs is much better than vice versa.
(Now of course what tends to happen is if you make the city better then you attract a bigger population. But that shouldn't be seen as a failure. Fixing traffic or commute times is essentially impossible, because as soon as you add capacity more people will move to the area or commute from further away. But what you can do is, for a given sane commute time, maximise the number of people and jobs within that range)
Longer term, the impact on rental costs depends on whether you think this policy would increase the amount of housing available for people to live in.
Where I live, many properties are bought and kept empty - the rental income isn't worth the hassle and they are being held for capital gains. High property taxes would presumably result in some of those properties being sold to occupiers.
Consider an extreme case - a land value tax of 20% (meaning you pay the government the full value of the unimproved land every 5 years). Land values would plummet, right? Lets say it were introduced over 30 years, so prices could adjust smoothly instead of crashing. What does the steady state look like after 30 years?
They mostly cater to the existing residents that own homes and partake in municipal voting.
They'll stop creating new housing developments and put massive permitting fees on proposals for new construction.
The entire goal should be to encourage residents to partake in municipal voting. That's everyone's responsibility as citizens.
https://www.officialdata.org/ca-property-tax/#37.74219147779...
In the interest of being intellectually honest though, that's probably not the full story. It's worth pointing out that Chicago's population peaked in the 50's and that property taxes were probably lower back then.
Also worth pointing out that there's a lot of directions for sprawl to help meet housing demand. I actually grew up in Indiana and my dad worked in Chicago. We lived in Indiana because the property tax was significantly lower even though housing prices were comparable.
If you just want single family homes with a big lawn you probably shouldn’t be living in Manhattan, which is the point of lvt.
Yes, exactly. And my point is that a city shouldn't optimize along one direction like this, because families work in urban centres too. There should be a mix of housing for single people and families in the same urban areas, or you drive the families out of the city and encourage commuting and urban sprawl.
It has been shown that LVT reduces blight: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...
It's hard to justify telling land owners to pay high property taxes when the city delivered the highest crime rates and worst performing schools in the nation in exchange for those tax dollars.
Policing is definitely possible, but I don't think the added cost and operational complexity make it advisable.
Lots of people want to design their own homes. For them, paying up for an empty lot is worth it. Put another way: those buying empty lots are developers or rich. With rates rising, the latter set marginal pricing in desirable places.
So no, there is no teardown required. But a teardown is desirable to some people. They bid up empty lots. Hence the deviance you notice, which is well documented in other places rich people like building designer homes. (Hamptons, Jackson Hole, et cetera.)
I mentioned the custom home premium upthread. It's not the cause of the deviance either.
The only way to avoid it is to move to areas where land is valueless.
Why does a tailor on Saville Row in London charge $10k while the tailor in southern Italy charge $1k for a bespoke suit?
Land values and land rents: https://twitter.com/dieworkwear/status/1549648048426344448?s...
Lot more steps. Developing a property is risky. The double whammy of eating the development cost in addition to increased property tax bill dissuades homeowners from taking the risk. (Yes, theoretically, prices should go down as easily as they go up. In reality, obviously, no, no city does that.)
By the time your land value has increased, you’ve already made money. (Or ridden on your neighbours’ investments.)
So your answer is to dismiss my position without evidence? Your point that property tax is worse than LVT isn't justified by your claim. If land values are determined by government assessment like property values are, then you're still paying property tax, albeit with an obfuscated input for improvement in the calculation which may be higher or lower or just the same as a regular property tax.
My evidence is your evidence. If you're arguing that a parcel of land increases in value due to the existence of improvements on neighboring parcels, then so, too, would improvements on the parcel in question be more valuable (since they're already built in a desirable location). Hence: the impact for land tax + improvement tax would be worse under your premise than the impact for land tax alone.
In reality, the "niceness" of surrounding homes is hardly a factor; proximity to economic centers (be it directly or by proximity to rapid transit) is typically one of the two primary drivers of land values (the other being geography).
> In reality, the niceness of surrounding homes is hardly a factor; proximity to economic centers (be it directly or by proximity to rapid transit) ...
Homes can be valuable precisely because they're located away from economic centers. That too is geography in action. And if COVID telecommuting is an indication of market preferences, home-owning adults prefer small, out-of-the-way towns with plenty of space, low property taxes, and good internet connections. So I'd hardly think that proximity to economic centers (usually cities) is as relevant it used to be.
The point of this "margin" you mention gets rather deterministically and uniformily raised across the board.
I don't understand this. The owners have pay mortgage, taxes, insurance, and repairs. How can it be decoupled? The landlords I know would have to sell if they lost their renters, or if the rental income fell below a certain amount.
The landlord either eats the loss or gets out of the game. Since vacancy is the worst possible outcome for a landlord, they can't just hold their units off the market to get the price they want.
That's true, but it's also a looming economic disaster as it prices out the younger generation and entrenches generational wealth.
Chicago are famous for their highest rate of 2.5% per annum, grown smoothly over 15+ years. Thought experiment: What happens if the land value tax rate keeps growing smoothly? What does it look like at 10% per annum? 20%? 100%?
At 100% per annum, the average land value of a house needs to be below $50k or so in current dollars (most would need to be much less). Any higher, and ~nobody is willing to pay the taxes.
A large home costs $200k or so to build vs a small/cheap home at 80k, so property prices now range from 50k (old cheap home) to 250k (new, high-end home).
That's a huge result for housing affordability! People are currently saving deposits of 80k to get a mortgage.
Instead of paying mortgage costs to capital holders, you're paying tax to a government that ostensibly exists to serve you. Instead of buying "the most I can afford so I get a retirement fund", now people are buying housing based on their willingness to pay an ongoing cost for access to amenities.
I think at that point you’re disincentivising capital works too strongly, since there’s a higher risk you’ll lose the property via default on taxes, but it’s not clear to me that the same effect would exist even at a 20% rate.
For example low property taxes encourages NIMBYism which results in lower density zoning which reduces new supply.
If high property taxes reduce NIMBYism by making homeowners feel the housing crisis themselves, that alone could ultimately increase affordability.
When people say that the US is a "low tax economy" they seem to forget property taxes, which make the effective rate in almost _all_ US states higher than the UK (and much of the rest of Europe) if you own a home. It's just a "poor value for money" economy instead.
You must come from a privileged family.
[citation needed]
Wealthy people should pay their taxes.
Angry voters wanted a "tax revolt". Jerry Brown's Prop 8, on the same ballot, would have given homeowners a specific break but they wanted blood.
As a result, cities have an incentive to build commercial property over residential homes. The result is that the people working in those offices are competing for limited residential space (leading to high prices) and often have to settle for long commutes (leading to gridlock).
Remember that companies never die of old age.
https://journal.firsttuesday.us/change-the-law-close-prop-13...
Definitely going to need to see a reference on that one.
Did you mean to post a different source? The one you posted doesn't "show" anything, equivocates on whether LVT actually reduces blight in the few instances where it's been practiced, and makes meaningful suggestions for solutions other than LVT that it indicates have been shown IN PRACTICE to reduce blight (e.g. a land bank).
Texas has an interesting solution to this. Homeowners over 65 can elect to defer the payment of their property taxes indefinitely, although the taxes eventually get paid when the house changes owners.
I guess that doesn't matter to you if you're dead.
What happens if the deferred taxes exceed the cost of the house?
I'm not sure what happens in the case where the accrued taxes exceed the value of the house, though.
I'm uncomfortable with this phrasing. Are you implying that the bailouts were some kind of quid pro quo?
Some people have very strange misconceptions about LVT & Georgism.
The land with the highest value is city land. Most of city land and the buildings on that land are private property so they cannot be auctioned “every year”.
Singapore and Taiwan lease blocks of state-owned land for (high-rise) residence buildings for a duration of 99 years. This land is auctioned to developers, who then build houses and high rises, then sell them to individuals. The land lease ends after 99 years, so the land can be reused. This obviously does not capture the increase in the value of land over 99 years, but the value of land at the time of the sale.
So both states have taxes on land - a property tax in Singapore and a tax on the increment in the value of land in Taiwan, showing that it’s feasible to estimate the value of land and tax that (value of land = total value - value of improvements).
But surely you have improvements on the land and friction from moving...
I like LVTs, but there's some significant devils in the implementation details.
For the improvements on the land bit, you could project at the beginning of the year what you think the land will be worth by the end of the year, due to planned improvements. That locks in the value for the year.
I can see problems with that too, but the real question is would those problems be worse or better than the problems we have now?
If the land is worth $100, and your house is worth $200-- it's worth $300 to you. But a LVT should just be taxing that $100.
Usually the assessment and sale price are not far off.
All zoning is exclusionary to my knowledge. That's the entire point. It's not necessary but it exists because it exists. And, it's sticky. It was established most likely when the entire city was raw land and undeveloped; so it served as a plan for development. There was no NIMBY because people were building their BY. Because there was a plan, you could decide where you wanted to build that BY.
Once you have developed the land, raised family, lived in a house for decade(s), and the city around you develops and changes. Now, your property maybe better utilized as a multifamily complex or a nuclear reactor, or anything really. But, it's your home and you shouldn't be taxed out of it. Rezoning as a process is may difficult and probably should be. There's a lot of stakeholders/neighbors who are impacted by a change. They should have some say. It just so happens that those people who bought a single family house in a single family neighborhood tend to prefer it to stay that way so they get called NIMBY but it's a completely rational perspective to have if you were in their shoes. Thus, an introduction of this tax only serves to displace the current owners who can not afford the new tax bill and does nothing to change the actual zoning. So the result is, richer people with bigger tax-bill budgets move in and your even further into the NIMBYism trap not even realizing you're in a zoning trap.
If you open up the zoning (and perhaps the building restrictions), the best and highest uses can actually prevail.
It will still force density eventually as the home's structure value depreciates (demo costs are the same no matter how much the home is worth). Any new structures will be pushed into higher value uses.
BUT let's say we instituted a blind land value tax tomorrow: many people would be forced out of their homes AND could not sell the home for what it was worth: a buyer would still have to either live in the house and pay the higher land value tax or tear down the structure and build something more profitable...the haircut they would otherwise have to take in either case would be reflected in just paying less for the house in the first place (assuming they've done their homework).
This could even happen after the land tax is implemented. That the land value rises above the point of its use but below the point of where the land could be re-developed into the higher value use case. Then....you are kind of stuck in a bad spot until your situation changes or you go bankrupt.
We actually already see this in the market: land with a tear down will cost less than land that is completely clear. The costs to develop are just less in the latter case. Also, people are forced by the construction market to settle for less valuable structures on high value land because there is just a shortage of material and talent to redevelop everything that we want redeveloped already.
Instead, we might imagine a State shifting from 10% income tax to N% land value tax, by lowering the income tax 1% per year, and raising the LVT 1 * (N/10)% per year, until a decade later, the State's income is land value tax, not income tax.
That should give everyone the opportunity to make plans, and adjust over time.
Prop 13 is one of the worst ideas in taxation ever. It would be better just to let the aged and disabled freely defer property taxes beyond a certain, income-based level (and maybe also to let other people do the same with certain limits on total deferred amount relative to assessed value for time-unlimited deferrals, and total time for value-unlimited deferrals.)
Prop 13 is just a handout, it could disappear overnight and grandma wouldn't have to pay a dime.
Roughly, yes (it's not exactly what I am describing, but pretty close); I’m saying if you are looking for a model to stop that problem elsewhere that has neither, copying Prop 13 (or even just the assessment increase limit, even if applied only to owner occupied primary residence) isn't the thing you should reach for.
Most old do not live in assisted care. ANd healthcare is independent of land ownership.
CA is extremely screwed up on how it taxes. I used to live in Cupertino where some people were paying taxes on 2 million dollar lots valued at 100k.
Most old do not live in assisted care. And healthcare is independent of land ownership.
I didn't say "assisted care" my father lived almost his entire life on his own, but still had assistance from his children and occasionally a home healthcare worker - this is a lot harder to do if his allocated tax-free plot of land is 100 miles from family or healthcare services. Healthcare is independent of land ownership, but isn't independent of location - after one medication change, he had to go back to the doctor daily for monitoring for a couple weeks, then weekly after that for 6 months. How would he do that it it was a 4 hour round trip to the nearest healthcare facility?
It's not a perfect market, rents are sticky, landlords don't profit maximize all of the time (e.g. they might keep the rent the same for several years for good tenants), but in general landlords will charge the highest amount they can charge at all times regardless of what their cost basis looks like.
Basically they put a tax lien on the property, they just don't collect on it while the original homeowner is occupying the property.
I'm not a lawyer, but my basic understanding of this is that if it exceeds the value of the property, the estate can just let the city/county seize the house. Otherwise, they'd need to pay the deferred taxes in order to transfer the title to the heirs.
Obviously this is not legal advice.
That's not really true. Zoning was usually set up later. Often the existing buildings wouldn't be permitted by the zoning rules but were "grandfathered in". (If we made this practice illegal and insisted that you have to demolish anything that doesn't fit the new zoning laws, that might be one way to keep zoning laws sane). Even if the final state of those people's buildings is legal, often the process by which they were built wouldn't be.
> Once you have developed the land, raised family, lived in a house for decade(s), and the city around you develops and changes. Now, your property maybe better utilized as a multifamily complex or a nuclear reactor, or anything really. But, it's your home and you shouldn't be taxed out of it. Rezoning as a process is may difficult and probably should be. There's a lot of stakeholders/neighbors who are impacted by a change. They should have some say. It just so happens that those people who bought a single family house in a single family neighborhood tend to prefer it to stay that way so they get called NIMBY but it's a completely rational perspective to have if you were in their shoes.
Guess they should've had the foresight to get born earlier? It seems absurdly unfair to say that zoning set up for a population that was half the size should bind the current generation. I get that it's individually rational to want to pull the ladder up behind you, but it's disgusting. (And for the "people shouldn't be forced out of their home" crowd: my generation gets forced out of our homes every 2-3 years because we can't afford to own and have to rent. So I won't shed any tears for boomers getting forced out of their home once in several decades)
Plus, here in the US the vast majority of land ownership entailed forcing native peoples out of their homes.
No disagreement there, I'm no expert but think it just wasn't as formal as we current have it. But informally it still roughly matches how we currently do it (residential areas, commercial area, industrial areas, etc). Building codes, technologies, materials, etc change much more frequently which is a bigger reason that old buildings wouldn't exist today. I happen to reside in a part of the US that has seen massive sprawl and growth in just the past ~50-70 years, so it's been mostly planned. I can currently see how the next generation of exurbs will be developed and I think it's been that way for at least 30 years.
> Guess they should've had the foresight to get born earlier? It seems absurdly unfair to say that zoning set up for a population that was half the size should bind the current generation. I get that it's individually rational to want to pull the ladder up behind you, but it's disgusting. (And for the "people shouldn't be forced out of their home" crowd: my generation gets forced out of our homes every 2-3 years because we can't afford to own and have to rent. So I won't shed any tears for boomers getting forced out of their home once in several decades)
Are we out of land in the US? (I'm assuming you're in US). Why do you need that specific piece of land that the person you are displacing already owns? Job/commute, convenience, etc are unacceptable answers in my book. Employers can and should be dispersing, you're likely broadly employable and could find work elsewhere. They could put their office elsewhere. But you're choosing to live in an area that you can't afford to own (and they're choosing to office out of a location that their employees can't live in). Ignoring those or pushing them on the current land owners makes no sense. Curious if you have any evidence that rents are not market driven? It's my opinion your generation is forcing each other's rents up by refusing to move to a more affordable location. When a boomer bought that house, decades ago, it probably wasn't as desirable of a location as it is today. I happen to believe you are more in control of the entire situation than you care to admit but would rather stay put and blame the boomers or change the rules because you don't like the cards you were dealt. The "shed no tears" thing goes both ways, but they did get there first and they do already own their house, so it's an uphill battle for you.
But young people aren't the only ones who need to be downtown, as I said, and families were driven out to the suburbs for suitable housing. They have to commute instead, which has caused all sorts of gridlock and the usual problems with urban sprawl.
If the right incentives existed for mixed housing, tax incentives included, then this wouldn't happen, and people of all ages could afford to live closer to where they work, thus alleviating many of those issues and creating more livable cities.
Here in Canada we already do this in one sense by mixing government housing among more affluent neighbourhoods. This has prevented the formation of ghettos, but this same approach hasn't been applied to create an appropriate mix of housing for all different living arrangements.
So given a land value tax incentivises certain kinds of land use, my question is whether it would incentivise using land to make urban centres more livable for all types of people, rather than only certain kinds of people or lifestyles.
It seems to me to be the opposite. The mortgage interest tax deduction is a massive regressive government subsidy for homeowners, and penalizes younger people who rent or cannot afford to buy a home.
So I’m curious what suggests to you that renters have political power. To me it seems the opposite - tax policy massively prefers owners over renters.
The whole 1bdr vs. 3bdr thing is a total sideshow; the actual issue, again, is SFZ.
Of course nowadays it's easier to hire behind grandma than it is to defund school buses.
There's a huge difference between a "residential area" and an area where it's literally illegal to build anything except houses and parking lots. It's not a case of just formalising what already existed, when you make the bodegas and offices and light workshops illegal you turn it from a residential neighbourhood into a soulless dormitory.
> Are we out of land in the US? (I'm assuming you're in US). Why do you need that specific piece of land that the person you are displacing already owns? Job/commute, convenience, etc are unacceptable answers in my book. Employers can and should be dispersing, you're likely broadly employable and could find work elsewhere. They could put their office elsewhere. But you're choosing to live in an area that you can't afford to own (and they're choosing to office out of a location that their employees can't live in). Ignoring those or pushing them on the current land owners makes no sense.
(I'm actually not in the US, but HN being HN I pretty much have to comment from a US perspective).
Agglomeration has huge benefits, that's why we have towns and cities in the first place. The current landowners almost certainly moved to somewhere that was previously less dense and made it more dense by moving there, no doubt chainging the character of the place in the process, so I don't think it's fair for them to complain about the next generation doing the same thing.
And if I tried to start my own new city in the middle of nowhere the exact same thing would happen: the first group of people move in, the city (maybe more like a small town to start with) becomes a pleasant place to live with jobs available, more people want to move in, but now there's enough people living there to NIMBY-block any density increase. If we tried to set a schedule at the start where we'd gradually densify the zoning? San Francisco already has a law like that on the books, they just ignore it.
> Curious if you have any evidence that rents are not market driven?
Zoning is a huge market distortion. It's essentially illegal to build anything in SF (over half the homes in San Francisco would be illegal to build today), and don't get me started on artificially low property taxes. So the rents are "market driven" in the sense of supply/demand, but that supply is being artificially choked off.
> I happen to believe you are more in control of the entire situation than you care to admit but would rather stay put and blame the boomers or change the rules because you don't like the cards you were dealt.
I mean sure, I can choose to live somewhere worse and commute for longer or take a worse job, while the boomer lounges about on my tax dime. But the fundamental injustice is very real.
> The "shed no tears" thing goes both ways, but they did get there first and they do already own their house, so it's an uphill battle for you.
They've created a de facto rotten borough by pricing everyone else out. But when democracy stops working the issues don't go away, people just find more direct ways to express them.
No, because that's already subtracted out of the total property value to produce the land value.
> And if COVID telecommuting is an indication of market preferences, home-owning adults prefer small, out-of-the-way towns with plenty of space, low property taxes, and good internet connections.
The exodus from city centers stems from farther-out places being cheaper - i.e. having lower land value.
On paper yes, but in practice there will be a de facto tax on improvement due to higher demand caused by what an physical improvement of one's own property signals.
> The exodus from city centers stems from farther-out places being cheaper - i.e. having lower land value.
Lower cost is not necessarily lower value. It's possible for areas out of the way to cost more, even if they start cheap, simply due to a short-term spurt of high demand. There are, for instance, empty parcels of land in Idaho that now go for more than whole apartment buildings in Detroit there despite the city being the automotive capital of the United States where one had historically seen the opposite trend.
...which is already subtracted out along with the rest of the improvements' contribution to land values. You could argue that it ain't a perfectly accurate subtraction - and that'd be a valid and reasonable argument - but that margin of error cuts both ways (i.e. overestimating improvement value instead of underestimating it).
> Lower cost is not necessarily lower value.
Land cost is land rental value times some amount of time (usually based on the expected cap rate).
> There are, for instance, empty parcels of land in Idaho that now go for more than whole apartment buildings in Detroit
Are the two parcels the same size? Are they representative of surrounding parcels and not outliers? Are they the same distance (in transit time/cost) as the nearest town/city center?
Putting in a 10 to 25+ million dollar multiple level parking garage can pay off, but only if there is enough demand for it and you can get zoning permission.
That doesn’t mean building a multi level parking garage in that same space is actually a good investment because demand isn’t unlimited. What you see as wasted space can therefore actually be a highly efficient business.
It’s far more profitable to charge people 20$ to use 1/300th of an acre for a few hours than to actually do nothing with it. Which means the opportunity cost to build something is higher.
Unless the building is going to clearly be wildly profitable it may be better to stick with a parking lot.
Houston.
It's cheaper than an actual building...
> and it does make the land more useful.
...and less useful than one, too.
Because they have fixed incomes (generally). This income is immune to market forces. That's why.
While many elderly invested wisely (and at the right time) to become wealthy, especially when leveraging dips (like during the 80s), it doesn't change the average case. Living month to month on a fixed income is the norm after retirement.
Some seniors bought post ww2 bonds at phenomenal rates. There were many ppl who made wise investments, regardless. Patience turned thousands into hundreds of thousands outside of the housing prices.
Meanwhile, why are only senior home owners worthy of that stability? Why do seniors who rent not get rent stabilization as a matter of law?
If this were really motivated out of altruistic concern for vulnerable retirees, the law would look very different.
This doesn't exist anymore as of Prop 19. If an inherited home is not primary residence, it is taxed at full market value.
The state taxes were added to partially backfill the lost local taxes. Prop 13 was a major contribution to moving control from local governments (which it kneecapped fiscally) to the State (which it also kneecapped, because of the supermajority requirement to raisd any tax, but not as badly.)
The federal government went through a similar activity a few years later when Reagan slashed budgets. Everyone survived.
The state/federal budgets today are astronomically higher, even after accounting for inflation.
Below is a newspaper article I saved from over 30 years ago:
--
See Dick and Jane-and Simple Simon-Solve the School Budget
By ALICE J. GLASSER
Once upon a time, a very long time ago, there was a schoolhouse with a few children and a teacher. The children went to school to learn and the teacher went to teach. It was all very simple.
Then a few more kids came, so they hired another teacher. Now, with two teachers, they needed someone to supervise. So they hired a principal. (Meanwhile, a lot more kids came, but just one more teacher.)
So the principal hired an assistant. But still more kids came, so they built another school and hired another principal. And now, with two principals, they needed someone to supervise. So they hired a superintendent, an assistant superintendent, a supervisor of Here and a supervisor of There. And since they needed a place for all these people, they built their own building and called themselves Unified. And they were happy until someone pointed out that there wasn't enough for them to do. So they hired a director of This and a director of That to develop pages and pages of things for them to do.
But there still was a problem. Unified had no one to implement these pages and pages of plans. So they hired coordinators of This and coordinators of That to decide which of the pages and pages of plans they should implement. (Meanwhile, a lot more kids came but just a few more teachers.)
Now Unified needed a bigger building for all their people. So they bought a really big place. So big that they hired a few more Heres and Theres and Thises and Thats to fill up the space. And they were happy until they realized that they had run out of money. Their budget didn't balance. (Meanwhile, a lot more kids came and an occasional teacher.)
So they hired a financial expert of This and a resource planner of That, and Unified came up with a Plan to balance the budget. They would break down all the walls between all the classrooms and once again have just one schoolroom. Only this time there would be 500 kids and one teacher. Of course, the teacher couldn't really teach and the kids couldn't really learn, but Unified was happy. Their budget was balanced. It was all very simple.
----
As chairperson of the Mar Vista School Site Council in West Los Angeles, Alice J. Glasser has been wrestling with Los Angeles Unified School District budgeting problems. By profession, she is a physician.
Update: I found it online here: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-07-08-me-1359-s...
I did allude to that in a previous comment regarding the "propping up "and "weighing down" of values
> Lower cost is not necessarily lower value. Land cost is land rental value times some amount of time (usually based on the expected cap rate).
Cap rate/land rental value is difficult to assess on land
> There are, for instance, empty parcels of land in Idaho that now go for more than whole apartment buildings in Detroit Are the two parcels the same size? Are they representative of surrounding parcels and not outliers? Are they the same distance (in transit time/cost) as the nearest town/city center?
I'll admit that I don't have the exact values under the constraints you've listed. And given different geographies, that's going to be difficult to accomplish. However, there have been several reports of prices in Idaho increasing due to now-former residents of the Bay Area fleeing into state and buying up land and houses.
https://www.krem.com/amp/article/news/local/out-of-state-hom...
You want people hailing from further distances via public transit and rail, and you want the majority of the businesses in an area servicing a highly dense, local community that can all walk there within 10-15 minutes.
This enzyme must be removed, the American Urban Body reworked to reject suburban thinking like this.
Low mortgage rates cause house values to go up because value is based on what an affordable monthly payment for that house.
Low rates means value goes up to equalize payments which is mostly superfluous for people with only one home and good for anyone with investment property but it causes a 20% down payment to be an unsurmountable barrier to entry for those looking to enter the market.
Home ownership is one if not the best way for families to generationally escape poverty.
When people bring up the prices of houses for baby boomers they totally overlook the interest rates and monthly payments.
The price of a house doesn't really matter. The payment and the down payment are what matter and the volatility of those isn't based on the piece of land changing value (in the shorter term).
In the last 6 years, my house doubled in value. Also, I recently refinanced for less than half the rate.
When borrowing money is cheap, there's a lot more competition for things bought with loans. On the other hand, the market rates for rent don't really change because the people don't suddenly have more disposable income.
If the present and future are worth the same, then the value of land is practically infinite because millions of generations of humans can use it. The obvious problem in this case is that nobody should own land forever.
Not any more.
EDIT: just checked, the property value can go up by $1M from when it was purchased without the inheritor owing additional tax. [1] Beyond that, tax is due on the incremental additional appreciation. In reality, this will only affect properties in a few metro areas (Bay Area, LA, OC, SD) and certain beachside properties. This isn't to say that the law is good or bad, just to describe the scope of its likely impact.
1: https://www.cunninghamlegal.com/california-legal-services/ca...
So with either kind of improvement the tax can go up, but LVT still encourages development compared to property tax as undeveloped land will still attract a greater proportion of tax than it would under a property tax.
If you set the tax rate by having owners bid a price they're bound to sell their property for... that's going to include improvements like dwellings, since the owner can't take their dwelling with them and doesn't want to just sell the property with their dwelling for the land value alone.
In turn, this fails at setting the rate for a LVT, because it captures the value of improvements like houses in the taxed amount.
Flats in the UK are leasehold, which means you can buy (part of) a property and still not own the land.
It's entirely possible to separate the two.
Does LVT look at a piece of land's productive value instead (i.e., how much food you could grow on it or how many minerals you could mine out of it)?
When it comes to housing construction and tax incentives, what they need to do is (1) set tax incentives to discourage egregious misuse and encourage density, and (2) get out of the way.
As someone living in the middle of one of these debates right now, the idea that we need to carefully control the mix of 1bdr apartments vs 3bdr apartments is... risible? The frontline of this issue is SFZ, not what kind of apartments we build.
I disagree. No planning has lead to many ghettos. The planning we've done here has avoided ghettos. I think the data is very clear on that.
> When it comes to housing construction and tax incentives, what they need to do is (1) set tax incentives to discourage egregious misuse and encourage density, and (2) get out of the way.
Except as I've been saying, if you encourage too much density your cities become unlivable for families, and you encourage urban sprawl and all of it's subsequent problems.
> the idea that we need to carefully control the mix of 1bdr apartments vs 3bdr apartments is... risible?
Who said anything about "carefully controlling" anything? Certainly not me.
Citation? Where is that? Where I live the planning regime was famously ineffectual in the '50s and '60s, and as a result it's far more livable than big cities that had more planning: https://www.economist.com/special-report/2021/12/07/the-big-...
With the "portability" affordances for people over 55, and with the special treatment of farms, I think there's still plenty of room for heirs to receive properties with ridiculously low assessments. A savvy person trying to give the greatest tax advantage to their heirs would sell their property with the lowest assessment, and buy the most expensive property they can, make it their permanent residence, and leave it to a child or grandchild.
In combination with the special treatment for farms, I think there's plenty of room left for people to inherit property which they don't actually need, with ridiculously low assessments.
It also requires property owners to do EXTENSIVE research and information gathering CONSTANTLY to ensure that the number they put down is reasonable.
Many of them literally can't (ex: my 87 year old Neighbor Phylis doesn't care what her house is worth, because she plans to die in it, and isn't seeking to maximize utility. Instead she wants to pass peacefully in the house she remembers raising her kids in, and has lived in for the last 50 years. She has no car, is in a wheelchair, and uses basically no online services - how is she going to go evaluate the right value for her house?).
---
Basically - this plan sounds great for 5 seconds and then you realize people would literally revolt the second you pass it.
Every year in Chicago.
My house has been, and still is, assessed for 600K over what I paid in Nov. 2021. It had been on the market since 2016, until I bought it. The price I paid is the value of the house.
First assessment appeal denied.
Second appeal lost in the system.
We have to fight against an unfair and arbitrary tax system EVERY year.
Now they are going to index the tax rate to inflation.
Maybe other communities are under-taxed, but mine is not.
AFAICT, hiring an attorney is the way to go. Then you still have to pay, but much less overall. I’m about 80% convinced that the tax assessors are in it with the appeal attorneys to almost literally write themselves checks. Not that such misdeeds would ever occur in Chicago/Cook…
what you paid for it is irrelevant if people are buying the neighboring places for double or triple the price.
if it's worth so much more than you think, sell it
Guaranteeing that people can take up the same space that they did when the population was half its current level is a great way to ensure that future generations have nowhere to live.
People will revolt anyway. For instance, in California they revolted when we attempted to remove Prop 13 for businesses.
People who are hoarding a huge house in a desirable area to do nothing but slowly die in need to be fucked over. They're worse than speculators.
> Many of them literally can't (ex: my 87 year old Neighbor Phylis doesn't care what her house is worth, because she plans to die in it, and isn't seeking to maximize utility. Instead she wants to pass peacefully in the house she remembers raising her kids in, and has lived in for the last 50 years. She has no car, is in a wheelchair, and uses basically no online services - how is she going to go evaluate the right value for her house?).
She should quote how much someone would have to pay to make it worth her moving out - that's something she should be able to figure out for herself. If she wouldn't move for less than 3 million, quote it at 3 million.
I don't even think the author is fully behind it, seemed more like a thought experiment as a reply to grandparent.
Regarding grandma: I don't want to kick her out of the house. But there is a real issue here: young families can't find affordable places, while old families live in places, that are too big for them because the kids left. If they rent, they also pay significantly less than the younger family, since they are on older contracts. Once new people move in, rent is raised to the new level. The older people don't want to move out, because they would have to pay more for their new, smaller place, than the old, bigger place. Meanwhile the young family also has to finance the pensions for that old family.
Noone is being evil here, but ... it sucks. And every idea to work on it is shut down as being unfair to the people who already own houses. Even building new houses is usually opposed by the people who already have houses in the area. If I never get the chance ever to own one, I don't really feel like I have to protect the interest of house owners.
Marginally shorter cycles before property becomes more useful in exchange for completely fucking over the elderly, marginalized groups, and those without free capital.
It's a bonkers bad idea.
As others point out, most LVT schemes have significantly improved treatment for owner-occupied housing.
The big idea here: land value is something that is established publicly and collectively rather than by any individual owner. It makes sense to tax use of this public good to reduce deadweight losses .... instead of primarily taxing improvements which disincents investment and increasing DWL.
A land value tax can be expected to reduce the cost of housing. That is, it incentivizes more effective land uses-- as opposed to property taxes that include improvements, which reduce the incentive to build higher densities.
Example 1: Bay Area home $1.7m; old taxable value $300k, new taxable value $700k (1.7m - 1m), prop taxes ~9k/year.
Example 2: Fresno home $700k; old taxable value $200k, new taxable value $200k (700k - 1m, so no affect)
Grandparent's home? Parent's second home? Child's second home? Uncle's home? Sibling's home?
No. Bay home is now $1.7m taxable, $21k/year
It's probably useful for you to understand my, uh, priors? about this, which include the fact that I live in an overwhelmingly SFZ community that actively works to prevent the construction of multi-family dwellings, often with appeals to the evil of "landlords".
How zoning should work is an orthogonal question in my view.
This is how free markets work.
That is, that leaseholder you can't turf is enjoying a lot of the value of the land, and it may not be correlated to past payments or transactions.
In turn, lots of the benefits of a LVT evaporate if the taxable value (of landowner's eventual rights) is so decorrelated from the present value of land uses.
That's the problem here: valuing the land alone is hard. Separating rights, adding more owners and options and preferences --- doesn't make valuing the land alone easier.
The tenant knows how much value they are getting from being there, at least relatively, because they pay the rent. If you're paying twice as much rent for half the space as your mate, unless there's some reason like being closer to the centre of the city or something, you know you're getting a bad deal.
Pricing can be difficult but it doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's a whole market to compare to.
Yes, but... As I keep trying to make clear:
* Anyone improving the property requires some kind of protection of this investment, usually in the form of a durable ownership interest or a very long term lease, with a value chosen based on both parties' estimates of the utility of the land over that lease term.
* In turn, the rents that the landlord receives from the property can be not-too-closely related to the present value of the land. They may be higher or lower.
* In turn, the land value tax doesn't succeed in capturing the true market rent of the land when it is based upon bidding by landowners, whether we're dealing with separate owners for improvements or not.
Imagine the case of someone who entered into a long term lease (60 years? 99 years?) in 1975 to build a house surrounded by orchards in San Jose. The real value of land has appreciated >60x over that term. A land value tax would capture a tiny fraction of that value if the landowner was bidding based upon the lease returns + the present value of the land being returned in 40 years.
> Pricing can be difficult but it doesn't exist in a vacuum, there's a whole market to compare to.
The level of friction is so high that you can't solve this one with bidding; you're going to have to rely upon comparable sales and assessed/appraised values.
That's true for N=1 (SFR), N=2 (duplex, half-occupied by the owner), N=3 (triple-decker with owner living in one), or N=50.
Electricity and gas and internet are private companies using an easement.
Police and fire can easily be funded by sales tax, just like the public transit. Alternatively, land owners can voluntarily pay yearly for police and fire, or opt-out just like people are not forced by government to buy homeowner insurance.
Maybe look into the lot lines and confirm if they extend through the 'road'. Then go to county clerk and recorder and find what easements were filed there. Lots of misunderstanding about this, even in local government.
Have those laws been tested? Published appellate cases specific to the law may be very interesting. An encumberance or taking requires compensation. Also, be careful to not use motor vehicle laws and words like 'drive', as you can do what you want on private property. My child was practicing use of movement via a personal conveyance when 11 years old, in what looks like a car on what looks like a road.
Incorporate a town and do what you want. After incorporating, set up contract to pay county to do maintenance until the town has time to bid it out.
Curious thing here is that with the limited ability of the town to meddle, town council election is occasionally cancelled because it is not contested. There is little to fight over, so not a lot of grift or power.
Am west of Mississippi river.
If there aren't cubs around, you yell, clap and raise your arms. It'll run in a heartbeat. If there are cubs around, you back away slowly- running will just make it chase you. If it follows, stop moving.
Edit: not to mention that VAT and sales taxes are considered regressive taxes that disproportionately burden the less wealthy. I would much quicker remove VAT than property taxes.
For the same reason that I'm planning my retirement without social security. Politicians can't be trusted long term. They'll write laws to allow them to use funds that were previously protected.
For state an local governments this is mostly true but even there the federal government helps out.
What you want is for the wealthy to pay for the poor and old and those without much wealth or income.
You're still giving the "it's property" framing waaay more credit than it's due. Remember, granting someone exclusivity to a contested resource means preventing other people who would like to use the resource from using the resource. It's entirely reasonable for those people, represented in aggregate by the government, to ask for compensation in return, even if the government provided the landowner no additional services beyond the exclusivity.
The entire concept of "owning" land is just a hustle to argue against paying taxes on it.
The details need to be hashed out. I'm not convinced that 99 years is right, it's long enough to ignore and then pretend to be surprised when it comes up for renewal. Perhaps 35 years and no termination clauses, to make it easier to plan around? It would allow one house for having children and one house for retirement. The improvements mechanism would likewise need iteration.
I am interested to see how the various global experiments in these directions will pan out, though it looks like right now the market is betting that the 99 year leases will turn into perpetual ownership. That's unfortunate, because perpetual ownership is directly responsible for most of the largest perverse incentive problems in the real estate industry, not to mention ongoing gigantic deadweight loss.
Put another way if building a 5 story building would be obviously more profitable then they would do that but the opportunity costs is now 1+ million per year you aren’t getting from the parking business.
You can unquestionably have smaller lots, but it’s hardly a massive plot of land.
Also, an acre with parking attendants doubles the number of cars so they could be clearing close to 2 million before expenses, and attendants aren’t that expensive.
Maybe this will force the governments to spend some of our accumulated tax dollars to actually improve public transport and efficiently network cities and towns.
Zoning rules exist for a reason. People need infrastructure and water and services and power grids to live well. High density is not desirable nor will it be affordable. It behooves the govt to encourage high density where there are jobs to create artificial scarcity and inflate housing value.
Because higher the home value, more property tax can be extracted. This is the oldest con in the world. This is also why all high density cities are all expensive and housing is unaffordable and everything from water to power is expensive and public services are woefully inadequate.
No, they aren't. I live in Tokyo; it's very high-density, quite affordable compared to anything in America, and public services are all excellent. High density is how you get high efficiency.
>Shouldn’t every American city deserve top notch infrastructure that the states only reserves for high density unaffordable cities where jobs are concentrated.
No, because spreading everyone out means your infrastructure cost per capita balloons, and it's unaffordable for the government. If you want "top notch" infrastructure, you need to live near other people, not out in the boonies.
>Zoning rules exist for a reason.
No, they don't: they just make everything far away from everything else and prevent density. Here in Japan, schools, light industrial, residential, and commercial all coexist in mostly the same spaces. So it's not that hard to live within walking distance of work.
Maybe you should try traveling outside America sometime.
Right now, NIMBY tries to prevent taller buildings.
A land value tax incentivizes more effective land uses-- as opposed to property taxes that include improvements, which reduce the incentive to build high density.
It's simple: eliminate NIMBYism. It only exists because local governments and laws allow it. Don't do that.
and then what!?
Realistically, it is a game of chicken. If you stop, you're signaling to the bear that you aren't intimidated. As long as it has an escape route, it'll back down.
Of course, part of the subtext of these discussions is that proponents of SFZ and owner-occupancy tend also to believe that their favorite cities should have controlled population growth. It's just not a good look to say that out loud.
That's one cause. The other cause that you seem to refuse to understand is creating the wrong kind of density. An urban centre full of 1 bedroom apartments is still going to create urban sprawl because families just can't live there, thus driving them out of the city centre even though they still work there. I just don't get why you refuse to understand this very obvious point.
Housing shortage is due to unions and govts that refuse to establish public infrastructure for everyone. This is done on purpose to create UTism .. Us VS Them..between property owners and those who don’t own property. Divide and Rule strategy. It has never failed over centuries.
It takes two to tango. Perhaps you'd be better off keeping your frustrations to yourself and improving the clarity of your writing.
> The real value of land has appreciated >60x over that term.
What is the "real value"? It's what someone is willing to pay for it. If the returns on the land are not that much, as you contend, then it's not worth >60x what it was. If the property owner has some protection than means they can't be shifted off the land for 99 years, then that land is not worth as much as you contend because it can't be used for something else. If someone else thinks the land is undervalued then they can bid on it and make more money, but they'll have to pay the tax and find a way to extract that value. If the land really is that valuable then the landowner can say so and pay the tax on it now because they think they'll get the return in future.
In short, you're assuming that the "real" value and the actual value are different and erroneously so. This assumption makes the reasoning self-contradictory - the value is determined by people's bids, not some Pythagorean value floating around somewhere waiting to be happened upon by some perfect system.
No, the amount agreed to pay 60 years ago does not necessarily match current market value of the land right.
The amount agreed to pay -now- doesn't necessarily equal market value.
E.g. say I have a piece of land, and I agree to lease building rights on it for 99 years to my buddy (or son, or..) for $1/year. The value anyone is willing to bid on the land should be the NPV of the remaining $99-n plus the NPV of the estimated land value in 99-n years. The tax is nearly completely escaped. All of the land value has been smuggled into the lease right, which isn't taxable.
When there's lots of degenerate cases like this, it become pretty clear the way of assessing LVTs you propose doesn't capture current market values of the land itself, since the value of each piece of land can be artificially impaired or captured by a leaseholder.
Indeed, even in the absence of avoidant lease schemes, the very fact that your scheme encourages capturing a past lease value undoes one of the cited advantages of LVTs: it no logner incents land to quickly turn over to more efficient uses. Instead, the scheme you propose explicitly incentivizes ownership structures that maintain inefficient uses, even worse than the current property tax regime that includes improvements.
a) Like Japan's lease law[1], it would be possible (and preferable) to limit lease periods
b) As I pointed out at the start, someone else can buy the land at at a very low price.
> However, if someone bids on the land for that price you must sell.
So even if you follow that avoidance strategy, I'm going to buy your land on the cheap. Perhaps I'll have to raise the tax in the meantime without the comparable rent coming in because of the lease agreement you set, but I get your buildings at the end so that's basically become a mortgage.
Of course, that possibility could be removed by a rule like having a period where a lease is in the offing where prospective buyers can buy and cancel the lease, punishing those setting low rates.
Still, I think this a digression, it's hardly a steel man, which would be more interesting. We may as well say that income tax is rubbish because people can lie to the tax man about their income.
[1] https://resources.realestate.co.jp/buy/leasehold-rights-in-j...
Money is a medium of exchange. There are items that are literally not for sale, and the excuse of "but they got money!!!!" is completely unacceptable as a replacement.
How are you going to value the writing on the walls of the home my neighbor from her now-deceased son?
How are you going to value the 6 (six!) graves of the dogs she's buried in her back yard, Each with a custom stone statue.
How are you going to value that she's memorized her current home layout, so that large cataract in her right eye doesn't bug her as much when she's in the familiar layout?
How do you value the extra time and expense it would take her to find a new home, given she's wheelchair bound?
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and your "new plan" is devolving into trying to add all sort of extra conditions and rules around this - which gets us right back to: implement this and people will literally try to kill you.
> and they decline by raising their declared valuation to match the neighborhood average.
First - this is not in line with the previous posts. What stops me from simply declaring my value is 0 until someone makes an offer and then suddenly it's the right value. Until next year when it's 0 again because that buyer has gone away. If I only have to declare at time of potential sale, the declaration is useless.
Second - having lived in a transitional neighborhood, if your house is valued at the neighborhood average, it will be bought in 30 seconds, sight unseen, usually by a corporation that plans to rehab it (because it was last updated in the 70s) and then rent it forever.
And that second point isn't a hypothetical, it's literally already happening: https://www.cbs46.com/2022/06/03/its-an-everyday-occurrence-...
Basically - money isn't everything, and maximizing utility in a purely capitalistic sense is not a set of values shared by enough people to make this work.
If you limited this to only commercially zoned land, then maybe - but you have a social contract with all those people who bought their houses, and violating that social contract, especially in a way like this, is a recipe for disaster.
A lack of density closer to cities is a real problem: it makes living close to where you work prohibitively expensive, and promotes sprawl.
Your source effectively says the opposite-- some leases are limited, but "With an ordinary land lease right, the lease contract period is fixed but in practice can be renewed almost in perpetuity." and "The lease contract period under the Old Land Lease law is fixed, but the lease can be renewed almost in perpetuity."
Even the fixed terms for non-commercial use are generally very long-- "Land leased out to be used for single-family homes and condominiums can be leased out with a fixed-term land lease. The contract period is 50 years or more. "
> So even if you follow that avoidance strategy, I'm going to buy your land on the cheap.
I bid the NPV of the lease + the NPV of the land after the lease. If you outbid me, you're taking an economic loss. I can even afford to overbid a little, because I'm just paying a small percentage of my bid.
E.g. say a sane discount rate is 5% per year. Lease is 50 years. Lease payment is $1/year. True value of the underlying land is $500k. Value of land in 50 years is estimated to be $1M. Tax rate 1%.
NPV of the lease payments is $19. NPV of the land is $92,000. I bid $200k and pay $2k in tax (compared to $5k).
Sure, you could bid $200,001 and get the land, to get an asset with a net present value of $92,019. This is not a favorable transaction-- even if there's some building residual value at the end.
In the end, the only way to value the independent value of the land is going to be from some kind of assessment process. A bidding based scheme is not practical: separating the value of the land and building is really hard. (And if we start having people judge whether the pricing of leases, etc, is fair-- that's effectively assessment).
It's saying what is customary and possible. The landlord does not have to renew, I think that is quite clear from what was written in that article.
> Even the fixed terms for non-commercial use are generally very long
Because they have a land tax and a property tax. I didn't suggest to use Japan's law verbatim, nor would I, their system has a lot of unwanted side effects but it does encourage a lot of building.
> I bid the NPV of the lease + the NPV of the land after the lease. If you outbid me, you're taking an economic loss. I can even afford to overbid a little, because I'm just paying a small percentage of my bid.
Yes, but you didn't get to sign over that lease because I outbid you and it's now my land and the lease will not go forward because, to quote myself:
> 1 point by brigandish 21 hours ago | parent | context | favorite | on: High property taxes are good
Any law will need provisions to prevent corrupt practices. Whether that is easy or difficult should be taken into account, but in this case I don't see the difficulty, because
a) Like Japan's lease law[1], it would be possible (and preferable) to limit lease periods
b) As I pointed out at the start, someone else can buy the land at at a very low price.
> However, if someone bids on the land for that price you must sell.
So even if you follow that avoidance strategy, I'm going to buy your land on the cheap. Perhaps I'll have to raise the tax in the meantime without the comparable rent coming in because of the lease agreement you set, but I get your buildings at the end so that's basically become a mortgage.
Of course, that possibility could be removed by a rule like having a period where a lease is in the offing where prospective buyers can buy and cancel the lease, punishing those setting low rates.
Your calculations are moot.
The source you provided is clear on this for the non-fixed term variants. Here is another source:
https://resourcehub.bakermckenzie.com/en/resources/global-co...
> What are the usual forms of leases?
> Ordinary leases (with statutory right of renewal except in certain instances)
> Fixed-term leases (with no right of renewal)
Note that you also characterized the law as providing an upper bound on lease terms, when actually it's the opposite:
> such as ground leases must be 30 years or more except a fixed-term ground lease, which must be 50 years or more
I disagree with most everything you say, and I am not sure further discussion would be productive.
Aside from the minutiae: I do not think there is any reasonable way except assessment to disentangle the value of land and improvements in a way that tracks land value in the short term, which is required for a land value tax to yield its substantial benefits.
> Until next year when it's 0 again because that buyer has gone away.
Why would the buyer go away? The state itself could maintain offers on any properties lowballing their property taxes. But that wouldn't be necessary, because at any time, there would always be ample interest in purchasing real estate for discount prices. You say this yourself:
> if your house is valued at the neighborhood average, it will be bought in 30 seconds
...but again, it sounds like you misunderstand my proposal. In 30 seconds, someone would offer to buy, and then the current property owner would have the choice of either selling, or keeping their property but raising their property-tax assessment to either that amount, or the local average, whichever is lower.
There is no such thing as a "standing offer" to buy a house. They're a contract with very clear start and end dates (most offers are good for between 72 hours and two weeks).
This is because both parties have to agree at time of exchange on the value of the good, and the person making the offer usually needs to have financing lined up - They literally cannot make an offer that will be good for long periods, because the financier won't agree to that.
As for this...
> ...but again, it sounds like you misunderstand my proposal. In 30 seconds, someone would offer to buy, and then the current property owner would have the choice of either selling, or keeping their property but raising their property-tax assessment to either that amount, or the local average, whichever is lower.
Ok - follow along... now the next offer comes in 2 days later at the current value. The owner STILL has zero desire to sell. What now? Do they get to raise again?
Dude - this whole thing is ending up with more rules and regulations that the current market, which is exactly why pushing this kind of thing simply doesn't work.
In theory you're optimizing land efficiency, but you're fucking with other efficiencies ALL along the chain, and the net result is that people hate you.
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Also - taking you at face value: "raising their property-tax assessment to either that amount, or the local average, whichever is lower."
This is fucking already how taxes work. At least in my area, every house is taxed at the local average (fulton county does average assessed value tax for land). So you're literally gaining nothing for all this additional complexity.
Also false. Maybe stop with the ad hominems?
> There is no such thing as a "standing offer" to buy a house.
There is in my proposal. Go back and reread it.
> This is fucking already how taxes work.
Not in California.
> > such as ground leases must be 30 years or more except a fixed-term ground lease, which must be 50 years or more
I quote from the article I shared with you:
> The initial period is 30 years, regardless of the building structure. The lease can then be renewed for 20 years at the first renewal, then ten years thereafter. This differs from the the Old Land Lease in that under the old law, the initial lease period is different depending on the building structure.
and this for fixed-term ground lease:
> The lease contract period is ten years or more and less than 50 years.
Which means we have two articles that are in disagreement but that is irrelevant because again, I am not proposing to use Japanese law verbatim.
> I disagree with most everything you say, and I am not sure further discussion would be productive.
Yes, constantly defending straw man positions or needing to answer how many angels can dance on a pin is not productive for me either.
> Aside from the minutiae:…
Thanks for selling me all your land and making my descendants incredibly wealthy because you thought it was better to avoid taxes.