Ask HN: How will it impact after Elon's 'hardcore'

20 points by somthingwrong 3 years ago | 26 comments

Elon just announced the 'hardcore' on Twitter. I want to know what you think about it and what impact it will have on developers who worked in the US. Actually, as a China developer, it's pretty familiar to us, and Huawei had something similar to this a long time ago, and Alibaba also has 996 which is almost the same thing as it. In China a lot of companies have the same things and even worse, why do these companies do things like that? because Huawei and Alibaba these kinds of big companies do it so they learn from it, and unfortunately these big company actually have also been very successful in their industries, So I wonder if the US will become the next China if Twitter gets more efficient and successful after this 'hardcore' thing.

And the day before another day I post an ask on HN, and talk about 996 in China too, someone replays me that the reason people got 996 jobs in China is that they are low-level developers, and after twitter announce the 'hardcore', I don't know will this change his mind

steve_adams_86 3 years ago |

I’m not seeing what Musk sees. I don’t understand how top tier engineering talent turns Twitter into something worth buying for $44,000,000,000.

It seems like a total farce. Accordingly, it seems like he’s being a complete asshole to thousands of people while making a spectacle of himself.

It means vanishingly little but this was what made me leave Twitter. His ineptitude around software engineering has made me wonder… If I knew anything about space or cars, would I similarly think he’s totally full of it?

The situation is grim. I don’t think his strategy will influence many other leaders, either.

It appears to me that Musk believes (or needs to believe) that Twitter has only failed due to incompetence. I don’t think it’s that simple though, and I don’t see any evidence that he has the competence to turn it around yet.

thefz 3 years ago | |

> It seems like a total farce. Accordingly, it seems like he’s being a complete asshole to thousands of people while making a spectacle of himself.

True words. Also, let me add: can we stop worrying about social media for a while? If it magically disappeared overnight, no lives will be lost and our existence would be the same, if not better.

steve_adams_86 3 years ago | | |

Yes, it mostly disappeared for me recently (apart from HN, Twitter was my only social media) and all I have is a sense of relief. Why didn’t I stop sooner?

I realized a large part of why I was using it recently was to follow my municipality’s elections, and I would have been far better served simply attending meetings and speaking directly with candidates. I did this a bit, but spent far too much time soaking in second hand information from Twitter. Why?! It feels kind of crazy in retrospect.

bsg75 3 years ago | |

> I don’t understand how top tier engineering talent turns Twitter into something worth buying for $44,000,000,000.

It doesn’t. Twitter’s product is not an engineering one of software or servers. And any revenue or cost improvements that are a result of engineering won’t be improved by sleeping on the floor.

steve_adams_86 3 years ago | | |

I think that last part is key here. Does excellence really require suffering? Especially for the disproportionate gain of someone who was, what, able to borrow more money than other people?

It’s such a preposterous idea on its face. I’m open to being ignorant and naive, but as it stands, I find the entire picture totally repulsive and incoherent.

TradingPlaces 3 years ago | |

He still thinks Twitter's issues are technical. They are political.

Silhouette 3 years ago |

I'm not sure on what planet it's a successful strategy to buy a tech company as the richest man in the world, fire half the staff, then claim that the company is in trouble and the remaining staff need to work "hardcore" to help keep the ship afloat. I'm fairly sure he'll need more than Starlink and SpaceX to reach that planet though.

Even in the current market there are surely going to be more attractive options for most or all of the good technical staff at Twitter than taking Musk's new deal. After recent events I doubt there will be much loyalty keeping anyone there either. A mass exodus seems inevitable.

I wonder if Twitter will even exist as a business in anything like its current form a year from now. Maybe Musk has a bet with Liz Truss and Kwasi Kwarteng to see if he can beat their record for causing billions in economic damage in the shortest time possible.

Stealthisbook 3 years ago |

It won't work with Twitter since there's no real goal or definition of success. Putting in long hours and working harder can only help to accomplish something faster, but nobody's defined what they want to get done except for some features around verification and subscriptions.

It's not even clear that the developers were falling short in any real way. The service has been working fine for years, invisibly rolling out features.

notacoward 3 years ago | |

> nobody's defined what they want to get done

Just keeping things running requires a certain amount of knowledge and effort. F.Elon wants to do that with an absolute minimum headcount (or more precisely a minimum wage expenditure). That means actively driving away the most talented, in favor of those willing to flirt with burnout and deliver the most work per dollar. The model is basically a high-tech sweatshop.

justapassenger 3 years ago |

996 is not unheard of in Silicon Valley, but in startups, where you have a remote promise of making big bucks.

Old, failing companies, with a crippling debt and leadership without any clue? Even if Twitter were to succeed, financials won’t work for people.

Silhouette 3 years ago | |

996 is not unheard of in Silicon Valley, but in startups, where you have a remote promise of making big bucks.

It doesn't even make sense in a startup. If you're not a founder with significant control and a big share of the equity then your chances of a FIRE exit are slim to none and it makes no sense to sacrifice your personal life like that for someone else's business. If you are a founder with a big stake then you need to be showing good judgement and making sensible decisions and the chances that you are doing that if you're putting in 72+ hours/week are also slim to none. Workaholics tend to be terrible managers and even worse executives and not just because they assume it's OK to abuse other employees by expecting them to be workaholics too.

sidibe 3 years ago |

I doubt it will spread in the USA because of this, because it will fail with his companies unlike Alibaba and Huawei.

I suspect it's worse for companies to do 996 and turn their employees one-dimensional, but Twitter will fail mainly because the CEO is mindlessly pulling levers, laying off staff, and throwing away its main revenue source, rather than just because he is making it hell to work there.

mhh__ 3 years ago |

The best way to get soldiers to do push-ups is to do push-ups with them, even if he didn't talk about his new employees the way he did he seems too busy to get stuck in anyway.

giantdude 3 years ago |

I think maybe we should stop talking about Elon.

ochronus 3 years ago | |

yes please!

freedom2099 3 years ago |

I wish twitter was a French company… it would be hilarious to watch Elon clash with our labour’s laws! At my company a new manager (from the US) was severely scolded for sending an e-mail after working hours (it is prohibited to avoid being pressured working late)! Another time my team was asked with very short notice (around noon) if we could stay late to finish some critical work (compensated)… some people left earlier than usual in protest!

gregors 3 years ago |

All of this reminds me of the software Death March book

https://www.amazon.com/Death-March-2nd-Edward-Yourdon/dp/013...

Where is the financial payoff? Is there a real possibility of a life changing exit? You need to actually believe in leadership's vision. Is the effort worth it? Do they even have a workable plan or are they just doing random things?

somthingwrong 3 years ago |

Maybe some of you don't actually know how bad will it be if 996 spreads, the 996 things don't only ruin your life and break the WLB but the most worse thing is it's the start of the vicious circle. For the developer self, you have to push your self working more hours because the other co-worker are working more hours For the company, the company will prefer who worked more hours because most of the management just simply thinks more hours represent more output For this industry, well because a lot of developers work more hours this means normally a task you could do it in two days back in WLB instead it will be done in one day now, and this will eventually become the company needs 100 developers back days, now they only need 50 developers. and this will become the start of involution

lordkrandel 3 years ago |

Manufacture can build more with more hours. But tell me, how are "more hours" for less people building a better Twitter? What wonderful features will they build?

A social media is not a car or a rocket. People went to Twitter for its freedom. And now that freedom is migrating in flocks to Mastodon.

So no, US won't be China 2.0 They have already been.

Bhaskar13 3 years ago |

Shareholders of Tesla demand tesla ceo to reduce pay and work in tesla office just like what he proposed for twitter or go find some other job. Elon tastes his own medicine

badbird3 3 years ago |

Will Twitter employees be earning hardcore TC? Or will they be expected to work hardcore hours with normal comp?

steve_adams_86 3 years ago | |

I’ve never seen anyone claim they are rewarded particularly well at Tesla or SpaceX, so I don’t have the impression that comp scales with hardcore-ness. It’s just a low pass filter on performance I guess?

Someone who works for him will hopefully provide objective insight.

tjpnz 3 years ago | |

They'll continue receiving their existing hardcore TC until they either quit or are shown the door. Their replacements will receive normal comp (by US standards, not SV) and will eventually be relocated to Texas or somewhere else less expensive.

CloudRecondite 3 years ago | |

We all know the answer to that

badbird3 3 years ago | |

I know that 996 Chinese devs aren’t earning hardcore comp.