Ask HN: Moving to DC in 2023? Hey folks, I work remotely in the open-source space, and I'm considering a move to the DuPont Cirlce / Logan Circle area in DC? Any DC folks on here have advice? How is the tech/startup scene in 2023? Not interested in ever getting a security clearance or working on anything in the defense industry, is there a tech presence outside of that industry? Thanks |
- As others have said, it's a very transient city. A lot of people live here for 5 years then move. Most of my friends/family live here so this isn't an issue for me but take this into consideration.
- There is definitely a tech presence outside of the defense industry, especially in the suburbs as others have mentioned. The scene is not nearly as big as San Francisco or NYC though. That said, if you are able to get a security clearance - do it. Without question do it. It opens a ton of doors around here and you can have an extremely lucrative career with one. DC also has the highest rate of remote workers out of any city in America, so you really don't need to work for a company around here if you don't want to.
- Not sure what you're into for fun, but it's very much a "drinking" city. A lot of socializing revolves around going to bars, breweries, concerts, brunch, etc.
- Despite what some may tell you, the suburbs right outside DC (Arlington and Montgomery County) are not cheaper than DC proper by any means. In recent years rent in Arlington on average is more expensive than DC. Parts of these suburbs though are highly developed, and if you didn't know better you'd probably think you were in the city anyway.
- The whole area is expensive. No way around that unless you move to Baltimore.
- DuPont and Logan Circle have a ton of transit and are very walkable. Two of the best neighborhoods in DC. Consider ditching your car. I haven't had one for 10 years and I can't think of many places I'd need to get to that aren't accessible by transit/walking/biking. If I do need a car, we have something called ZipCar which is a car rental service that charges by the hour for quick trips.
- Traffic is absolutely absurd. To me, it's worth it to pay more than commute from the further out suburbs. Anything beyond Reston, VA will be a miserable commute.
- DC is actually a pretty small city relative to other major US cities. I like this about it, but I've heard this come as a surprise to people that have moved here.
- Certain parts are pretty dangerous. The city is gentrifying quickly (for better or worse), but have some awareness and you'll be fine.
- If you do end up moving here. Venture out to the neighborhoods away from the mall and downtown. This is where the fun stuff happens.
Hope this helps. Happy to answer any questions if you have any as well.
> Certain parts are pretty dangerous.
It always felt pretty compartmentalized to me, but it's also where a lot of the cool shit and "culture" is. Shaw, H St. corridor, Columbia Heights and Petworth. Even Navy Yard, as broey as it is, has a lot of amenities but always feels a bit sketch.
Seems both political parties can agree on something.
:-)
I highly recommend Northern Virginia (Ballston/Rosslyn) near the metro or Bethesda just across the border in Maryland.
Enjoy those museums!
But the gingkos are lovely in the fall.
Welcome! You specifically mentioned Dupont Circle or Logan Circle. Are you "young, single, and ready to mingle?" Great! Both are awesome neighborhoods and I cannot stress how compact and _walkable_ the city is.
Besides the amenities in those neighborhoods you have mass transit options (subway & surprisingly functional buses for North/South movement), and I'd argue that you can literally walk from Ballston Virginia all the way to U St (north of Logan Circle) with the entire 6 mile route full of _interesting things to do_. (Yeah yeah, some blocks are better than others - Ballston is a shopping mall, Farragut North is just offices, but my point is that it's an unbroken stretch. You don't need a car living downtown, ever).
I lived in Dupont for over 10+ years and had a blast. Tons of bars, restaurants, music venues, cultural options, and great dating opportunities for heterosexuals (about 50/50 male/female in the city, allegedly slightly more single women than single men). Or if you're LGBT you've already discovered the "gayborhood": Dupont Circle/Logan Circle.
Disclosure: I got married, moved out of the city (but still nearby), and then the pandemic blew up everything, so things have changed since I did. I think a lot of businesses went under, but the area isn't derelict when I drive through.
Some of the comments here stick to stereotypes about DC being "only government and defense work". There's plenty of it and it's very visible, but it's not all. You can easily go your whole career never touching Government/Defense. The statistical metro area is the 3rd largest in the US, and it ranks highest in wealth and education.
Just today, from the WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/washington-d-c-has-more-tech-jo...
You said you don't want a clearance, but keep in mind that if you ever do work for the civilian government, you might need to get a "Public Trust" clearance. There's no polygraph or anything invasive, you just need to list where you've lived, not have problems with the IRS, and not be a current drug user. That includes marijuana.
A clearance (inc Public Trust) doesn't care if you did use marijuana, as long as you've stopped and haven't done so for at least a year. Admit you did long ago and then stopped. I strongly recommend never lying and saying you don't use currently if you do - if you ever change your mind about upgrading a clearance, down the road "I lied on my sworn testimony to the US government" is an automatic disqualification. I'd say drug (marijuana) disqualifications are 90% of the whining I see on Reddit & clearancejobs forums.
I've been all over, and I really do think DC is an underrated city. The food in DC is definitely competitive with New York, LA, and Chicago, the quantity is just not quite the same. There are a ton of little pockets in DC, all with different vibes, and there's actually pretty solid access to green space in Virginia, if you have a car. Rock Creek Park is a nice little oasis for greenery too.
My favorite thing about DC was that it still has the energy, diversity, food, and other amenities that big cities offer, but the streets are bigger, it feels more open and less oppressive than New York, and it feels a bit more clean.
My least favorite things about DC were being smack dab in the middle of January 6th and other riots. I lived right on Mass Ave, and many protests basically walk down Mass Ave towards the National Mall. So being woken up to helicopters and flashbangs was getting a little old when there were a string of nationwide protests. By the end of my time in DC, I also noticed crime seemingly getting worse. The biker/ATV gangs from Baltimore run rampant every now and then, and it can definitely put a bad taste in your mouth. I also had a few close encounters with drivebys or shootings (just south of Shaw) which honestly put me on edge and made me want to not live there. However, most of the crime is very very localized and you're unlikely to wander into a bad part of town if you're in pretty much any area of central and North West DC.
I think other people's criticisms of bros in Arlington, and political staffers, lawyers, etc. are fairly true. But there's also a very very diverse culture here, full of African American history, and lots of international influence in the cuisine. El Salvadorian, Ethiopian, lots of Vietnamese, Korean, and other Asian cultures. It's really a huge melting pot and that's awesome.
I can't speak to the tech scene, unfortunately. I work for a Government Contractor. The bar is very low, and you can get a pretty good base salary there, but you said you didn't want a clearance, and I don't blame you. The work is typically mind numbing and feels meaningless. I do know there are a handful of startups and small tech companies operating in and around DC and Arlington though. And a few of the big tech companies have satellites for the access to gov.
I setup a home here in NoVA for the foreseeable future, mostly because of family proximity, but I also just really enjoy DC and Virginia as places to live. Wineries, breweries, and a lot of good hiking is all within an hour. A ton of good food, and international cuisines are all within 30 minutes. Good nightlife, bars, live music, theater, and the rest of the Urban amenities are also all present.
Again, I think it's a very underrated city, but I haven't lived anywhere else for any significant period of time, just visited a lot of cities in Europe and the States.
Edit: One other thing: access to Dulles and Reagan is pretty convenient and fly to a lot of places!
It's all a bad part of town. Northwest DC isn't safe either.
From literally later the same day you posted this:
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/woman-kidnapped-at-...
Nearly all of the tech scene is outside of the city in two areas. Either in the stretch of MD north of DC and fading away the further North it gets until you're around Ft. Meade. It's a mix of biotech (NIH) and defense (NSA) but Bethesda Softworks is famously in southern MD. Or, in the stretch between DC and Dulles airport which is heavily defense and intelligence (part of that stretch is between the Pentagon and CIA HQ).
There are pockets of non-gov, non-defense tech around. I don't know much about southern MD tbh, but I know there's some regular 'ol startups in Crystal City, Tysons, and Reston areas, or tech companies with solid East Coast offices at least (but usually geared towards selling to the government). Amazon HQ2 is not in the city for example.
You'll find a fair number of fintech, electric car support companies, commtech, cybersec sort of firms. There's a large class of nonprofit tech companies in the area too, they don't offer stock, but the pay is decent and the jobs are highly stable.
Despite having the country's second largest subway, getting into and out of DC is an expensive chore.
The DC-Baltimore metro area is one of the largest in the country, covers a huge area, and has almost as many people as NYC. Most people with the means end up moving with their jobs rather than commuting. Hour+ commutes are not unusual.
(source:
- grew up on the East Coast and spent time in the DC area
- advised two West Coast startups that opened offices in the DC area neither made it, but the one that opened in DC proper, despite having deeper pockets, failed faster and their office never saw a customer willing to come into the city)
I lived in the Columbia Heights area for two years and I found it lovely. Dense, full of amenities, and within walking distance of Rock Creek Park which, IMO, is as good for running/walking/biking as any urban park I've been in.
By contrast, I find the suburbs around DC painfully bland and car-centric. Crystal City and Silver Springs in particular are places I can barely stand.
YMMV :)
Adding to your note, most of the people I know who've lived in DC proper end up with jobs out of the city, and usually after 2 or 3 years just give in and move closer to work. A trip from Columbia Heights or even Dupont Circle to National Landing (where Amazon's HQ2 is) is still frustratingly about an hour on the Metro, a driving distance of less than 7 miles. It's a reverse commute so I guess there that?
I live in the Capitol Hill neighborhood of DC and work (remotely) in tech. I would highly recommend—as have others here—that if you enjoy a nice walkable city, you should try living in DC proper, too, and if you _have to_ commute to one of those bland suburbs where the big HQs and startups are located, you'll be well positioned to reverse commute if you're near a Metro station in DC.
I moved here from San Franciso, where I had a similar reverse commute from SF down the peninsula to Cupertino for work in tech. I love DC for a lot of the same reasons I loved living in SF rather than in Silicon Valley—I much prefer city life to suburb life—even with all the grit and rough edges. If you do, too, I think you'd prefer DC proper to any of the suburbs.
Another comment was suggesting not moving into DC proper an I highly disagree. being close proximity to the metro line is what enables alot of the fun parts of living in the city. also taxes are less than maryland, but higher than virginia.
job wise, there are a handful of startups as well as tons of local companies (cap 1, appian), as well as branches of larger companies (google, microsoft, amazon, every consulting company you can think of) with offices in and around DC. with the advent of remote work I think the case for moving to dc is even stronger because even if companies are located in northern virginia, you dont have to slog through some of the worst traffic in the country and can just go in occasionally - which is what i do and honestly love it.
I wish i knew more start ups but when i was job searching recently i was looking at remote roles and most of the startups i looked at were non local. also, because of the high concentration of tech jobs, there are a few local recruiting companies that know the area really well and have placed me in 2 of my last 3 jobs.
let me know if you have more questions!
Can you elaborate? "Taxes" can mean many different things and, for my situation, income taxes in Virginia are far lower than in the other two municipalities.
maryland has local county tax which for montgomery county adds up with the state income tax to be several thousand higher per year than DC, for me.
Also, the pandemic hit DC really hard. DC is heavily reliant on commuters. It has one of the largest daytime-nighttime population changes in the country. But those government and knowledge workers are never coming back into the office at the same scale as before. Metro ridership has cratered, putting it in a budget crisis even when substantially reduced service levels. And lots of bars and restaurants that had built up over the last decade have closed down.
I will say, DC has some very charming and walkable neighborhoods. The area between DuPont Circle and Logan Circle is very cute, in a 1970s sort of way.
Not to mention, in NYC it's very difficult to buy a home as they are ~30-40% more expensive than renting, with high maintenance fees. For example, a 2BR in Upper East or West side (not near central park) will be ~6-9k a month with ~3k a month in taxes/maintenance.
The (made up) cocktail price index is also illustrative and in NYC one cocktail is ~$17-20 and DC is ~$11-14.
This video convinced me of their impact: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQEC7DiPtI
On the plus side, some of the work can truly be for the public good. Especially if it’s connected to a cause you’re passionate about. On the downside, you can be at the whim of budgets, grant awards, donors, etc.
I spoke at AWS Community Day D.C. last year, and there were a fair number of startups that attended. You can see some of them listed for DevOpsDays here. https://devopsdays.org/events/2022-washington-dc/welcome/
As someone else mentioned, health sector is big as well, and NIH has some big initiatives underway, many using high performance compute. And take a look at HHMI's Janelia Research Campus. It flies under the radar here, but they do some impressive work.
Aerospace has a lot going on, and plenty with geospatial. Not all of it defense driven.
So yeah, seconding the post above. There's a lot of great public good work beyond defense, it should just be noted that it's public sector, so a lot of bureaucratic strings come with that money.
I have lived in DC for 6 years and in the NOVA area for much longer. I ended up buying a house in DC, in Georgetown. I absolutely love it in DC.
There are so many cool little bars and restaurants, especially around the Logan Circle area. The wharfs and waterfronts in Georgetown and in Southwest are really fun. The Kennedy Center is magnificent. The national mall and monuments are beautiful and cannot be beaten by any other US city. You can grab a beer (or a spliff!) and sit by the tidal basin and watch the sunset.
DC is a clean and very beautiful city. Yes there is crime and homeless, but it is better than San Francisco or New York in that regard.
I lived in Manhattan for a few years, near Wall Street. It was so dirty and a concrete jungle. Yes there were more options for clubs / bars / restaurants but it was not worth it in my opinion. I saw human shit frequently, and as of yet I have not seen that in DC!
Move to Logan Circle! You won't regret it. You can walk from your house to Le Diplomat and grab some brunch or walk to Flash and party until 7am. It's a good time.
Regarding tech scene. Yes there is a very strong tech scene in the DMV. I do think there may be some more in-office work in NOVA vs DC proper. But someone with your talent would have no issue landing one of the cushy tech jobs in downtown DC. Also, I easily commute to Herndon or Crystal City when I need to. From my location in Georgetown it only takes like 20 - 30 minutes. From Logan Circle it will definitely take longer due to traffic and lots of lights. You won't need a clearance unless you want to get into that kind of work, which it doesn't sound like you do. There are plenty of non-cleared tech jobs.
When? And for how much?
I can't give you a lot of advice in the startup world, I work mostly in the public sector and to make good money you need a clearance. Every major player is in the DC area so it may be easier to get in with a large tech company if that's an interest.
I know techies who work for civil agencies (Federal Reserve), associations (AARP, American Chemical Society), labor unions, etc. The work is not HN-front-page stuff, but generally pays decently.
Beyond DC, investigate Arlington and Alexandria for more urban places to live. The latter is quite nice especially. It sounds like you're bringing your remote job with you. That's great! For non-defense tech, in Reston there are offices for Oracle, Microsoft, a bunch of AWS offices (more towards Herndon), and some smaller companies. Competition to get in all of the aforementioned is pretty fierce, and I suspect one good differentiator is having a security clearance.
Community-wise, tech seems to still be putting itself back together after Covid. The local scene on Meetup seemed like a ghost town when I checked a few months ago. There are some efforts to restart Code and Coffee (https://www.meetup.com/NoVA-Code-Coffee/) meetups which look promising.
Traffic is no joke. Think hard about where you want to live, how much you can pay, and how long you want to be in traffic. The less you drive, the happier you'll be.
Finally, it's worth noting that almost everyone in the area is over-leveraged in at least one of time, money, job/life commitments, and that manifests as an ambient stress. Probably very typical of any area that has money and ambitious people.
Virginia has a much lower violent crime rate (104 per 100000 vs 977 per 100000 in DC), lower taxes, a better social scene, and is more accessible to any of the common recreational activities (hiking in Shenandoah, camping in West Virginia, wineries, breweries, etc.).
Even if you like going out to a bar to socialize, I still think the Clarendon area on the north side of Arlington is better than literally anywhere in the District.
https://www.arlnow.com/2020/07/29/arlington-neighborhoods-to...
https://suburbansolutions.com/blog/arlington-va-crime-rate/
https://suburbansolutions.com/blog/washington-dc-crime-rate/
- there are more neighborhoods to DC than just DuPont and Logan Circle.
- traffic’s terrible. Engineer your life around not commuting by car. If you need a car, get off-street parking, especially if you live in DuPont/Logan and nearby neighborhoods.
- the food scene was meh 20 years ago, but no longer.
- there are many smart people here in all sorts of domains from all over the world; take advantage of this diversity of expertise.
- winter’s gray but spring and fall are glorious. High summer is miserable. You will want central air conditioning and lightweight clothes.
- tech is good here, and not just fedgov/defense, but it does not dominate everything the way it does in Silly Valley. Uncle Sam does dominate life here.
- Baltimore, Philly, and New York are an easy AmTrak train away. The Chesapeake and Delmarva peninsula is great. Shenandoah, the Alleghenies, and Smokies are not so far away. Flights to Europe aren’t bad, flights to Florida, Mexico, and the Caribbean are easy.
The big downside to DC is that it’s amazingly expensive to have a family. I’ve got two young kids in a 1200 square foot rowhome. I spend $25K on private preschool for the younger and the older one goes to the neighborhood elementary school… which becomes less able to serve her academically with each year. If you want to live in DC and send your kids to private school, you’re looking at needing a $400k-$500K annual income. There are a lot of dual-lawyer families with incomes in that range which don’t feel “rich.” So if your life plans include having kids, I would absolutely build equity and savings in the mean time, so that you can strike on houses when opportunity presents itself, and not break the bank on nannies and private school. Or… plan a retreat to the burbs.
If you're not in defense or government why would you want to live in DC?
And, while I admit I'm biased as a resident of the area, on a lot of objective measures it's a pretty nice place to be if you can swing the cost of living. Lots of well-educated high earners, world-class museums with free admission, relatively easy access to green spaces, and a range of transit options instead of being confined to a car like most of the US. It most certainly has its problems but it's got lots of upsides as well.
Not wanting to get clearance lowers the number of opportunities by a lot. Not every tech company works with clearances, but the money is always flowing in Defense Tech.
Most things will be government oriented rather than consumer.
Don't stay in DC proper. Alexandria and Arlington are good on the VA side. Not sure about the Maryland side.
There are lots of meet ups, but be prepared for stale tech because of the government work. Not to say there isn't progression, it's just that the government is the outsized employer (or employer adjacent) and they like to be slow and stable.
As far as lifestyle, it's a wealthy area with lots to do. Be prepared to drive though.
Before making a decision, take a look at Frederick, MD; Old Town in Alexandria, VA; Clarendon, Ballston, and Rosslyn in Arlington, VA; city of Falls Church, VA; and Reston, VA.
Baltimore is also within commuting distance
Lots of tech out there, even amongst all of the defense. Arlington, Reston and that general area of VA has a lot of tech. AWS and many others have their east coast data centers there. I remember having a client meeting with a startup at the Microsoft office in Maryland. The metro is a killer way to get around if you want to be car free. Where are you moving from?
I don't know much about what I'm missing in california, but I think it's nice here.
I grew up in the DC suburbs and my go-to example of this is the prevalence of chain restaurants in relation to the affluence of the population. The family from Michigan that’s here for four years along with some political administration isn’t going to take the time to sort through unfamiliar local places. They’re going to reach for familiar names. It’s the exact opposite of Philly, where a distinctly middle class, but permanent and stable, population keeps a thriving local restaurant scene in business.
Only positive thing I can say is that it's way better for cycling than NYC. Good infrastructure in the city, and fantastic paved trails throughout the surrounding areas. When my friends would move away at least I could spent the weekends exploring on two wheels.
Virginia is for lovers. DC is for haters. Don't live in the District unless you want to surround yourself with people who "throw up in [their] mouth a little" when they think about interacting with people from a different walk of life.
And for the places you are paying 200/person for dinner--people in Arlington aren't much (or at all) further than people in NE.
And you are fooling yourself if you think the people living in old town are much different than people in Logan Circle. Or people in courthouse are different than people in navy yard.
What's your definition of a "social scene"? I have lived in both and have known many people who have lived in both and you are probably the only person I've ever met (myself included) who thinks this.
It isn't two far-left white dudes in suits talking politics and their Hill jobs at a ground level bar in some brutalist monstrosity while ignoring everyone around them.
Yeah there are some fun and quirky things but a lot of that was hurt by COVID too.
(Downtown) Alexandria is lovely. Manassas and Fredericksburg (VA), and Frederick (MD), are very distinct from DC and the DMV suburbs, though—to me they feel much more like separate cities/towns in Virginia and Maryland (with all that Civil War history you're referring to).