And I paid just 6k for it. I'd rather double the normal maintenance for it than buy a Tesla.
The gull doors on the X are awkward.
The 3 is quite nice.
The problem I have with Teslas is R2R DRM. They're also still unaffordable in the US, which doesn't advance the elimination of ICEs.
It’s so ridiculous that I didn’t bother looking at Tesla at all in 2022. You are going to get out of your CRV, CX5, RAV4, Highlander, and straight into a model Y and it will feel like you went from a flip phone to an iPhone.
For many months you couldn't even order a Model 3 Long Range, your only option was a Model Y Long Range.
I remember a number of months back when people were discussing short-selling Tesla. I'm soooooo glad I don't play those kinds of games.
So engine imploded and he waited months for a part that was on a ship somewhere - they eventually bought the car back from him.
Needless to say I never bought a French car.
Impressive technology but wouldn't be caught dead in it. It's a brand thing. Don't want to be associated with the E-kn0b.
If I was buying now, it would be from Hyundai.
However, living in the city, I can't justify either so I'll keep rolling in my 69 Beetle every couple of weeks.
Tip: save yourself a tonne of money and ... just don't buy a car if you don't need it.
BYD handily outsells Tesla in China, but it is split among something like 40 different models vs Tesla's 4.
I've ridden in a BYD EV taxi before back in 2016, I haven't lived in China since then. It was OK. BYD should have a larger market share than Tesla in China, it would be weird otherwise.
Are all American cars that bad?
It's a form of survivor bias.
So Tesla is strong, but they are not crushing the market.
And while Tesla takes the crown here, they aren't the only new kid on the block that is extremely successful in the EV market. The likes of BYD and other Chinese manufacturers aren't far behind and are following a similar strategy to Tesla. Cheap Chinese exports are going to do similar things to the car industry that the Japanese car industry did in the eighties. The likes of Toyota of course were part of that move and it decimated the rest of the industry. That looks like it might happen again. Except this time it's Chinese manufacturers leading here; and Tesla of course.
The game right now isn't producing more concept cars, quick and dirty ICE conversions, or yet another over priced premium SUV ev but actually tackling the less premium mass market segment. This is only possible after companies nail cost and efficiency. And most of them are nowhere close to doing that. Tesla is ramping up to start selling millions of more modestly priced cars. BYD is already shipping loads of those in China. They are ready now.
Toyota particularly is far behind. The only EVs they have in the market are actually made by BYD. These are Toyota in name only. It's a BYD with a Toyota sticker slapped on. Reason: until they replaced their CEO recently, they were stubbornly pursuing things like hybrids and hydrogen cars and miscalculating how long they had to make that work. EVs priced around 20-30K$ are going to be a big problem for Toyota. Most of their remaining ICE market is at or above that price point and EVs with lower cost of ownership and a lower price tag can do some serious damage to that market. That's why they are partnering with BYD while they are figuring that out.
Maybe I'm missing something, but the lineups seem comparable.
BMW group sold 588,138 units in 2023 and most weren't EV.
But you are quite right. Given Tesla's mission and recent discontinuation of X and S and in RHD markets it wouldn't be surprised if they eventually killed them altogether. Let the premium makers like BMW, MB, Lucid focus on a niche luxury markets; use Tesla's time to make cheaper EVs.
Last year BMW sold about 2.4M cars, so Tesla is quickly catching up in terms of numbers.
The Y looks like an over inflated balloon (BMW, Mercedes, Mini and others have the same issue with some of their models)
And the 3 just doesn’t look like anyone designed the front end — the angle of the junction between the bonnet (hood) and the windscreen is wrong, and the front grill just looks like someone forgot it needed designing
(and I quite like the look of the Tesla 3 front end.)
Going from 4.3% BEV to 11% BEV may not sound so impressive, but little by little non Tesla BEVs are adding up, and I think many car makers are investing very seriously into it.
Historically the car market has not been one of monopoly, I don't think it's going to change with Tesla. Market shares will change, some car makers will fail to adapt, but I don't think German carmakers are the ones that will suffer the most. Japanese carmakers I have more doubt: they are moving very slowly, but on the other hand Japan knows how to manufacture batteries at scale (Panasonic), so once Toyota decides to move seriously into BEV, they might be able to move very fast.
I'm a lot more worried about my own country carmakers (Renault and Peugeot). Not only they move slowly and erratically, they are going to compete head on, on price, with Chinese carmakers...
https://insideevs.com/news/652873/tesla-tops-bmw-us-luxury-c...
If you’re pummeling Toyota with a luxy model, the rest are just fluff.
Consumers are shifting to EVs faster than expected, and it is catching some car makers (e.g. Toyota) flat footed.
All scooters in large cities have been electric for over a decade (its a weird time warp coming to taiwan and experiencing the stench of scooter on your morning commute)
They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago. Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric. They have tons of local brands that produce electric consumer cars
However the domestic market is ginormous and they only make weak attempts at going global. The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria
A lot longer than a decade. But it depends on the city. Beijing electrified earlier (like 2004 or so), Shanghai followed, then you have smaller cities where gas was allowed for much longer.
> They had a fully electric taxi service about 7 years ago.
What city? Surely not Beijing. Maybe Shenzhen?
> Inside the city medium size trucks (for delivering merchandise to stores) are all electric.
I'm beginning to doubt you here. The delivery trikes are electric. But the small trucks that deliver merchandise to stores? Definitely not the blue trucks that are only allowed inside the 5th ring at night and cause air quality to tank after midnight.
> The international market is fragmentary and you can be arbitrarily extrajudicially curb stomped with tariffs or outright bands due to anti China hysteria
China's market is limited by their own protectionism. It is hard to tell someone to "open up" when you aren't willing to do the same yourself.
As you've caught on, I'm a bit fuzzy on the dates.. But I feel I was riding Caocao taxis in Chengdu around then?
"Definitely not the blue trucks that are only allowed inside the 5th ring at night and cause air quality to tank after midnight"
Yeah you're right! I was off the mark there. There are smog monsters at night thats for sure. Forgot about those haha. During the day the smaller refrigerated trucks were electric though
As to your last point.. It's not a simple topic, but protectionism in theory only hurts your own market and your own consumers. Reciprocity is kinda irrelevant
If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
On both regional and national scales, vehicle emission has been identified as one of the most important contributors to air pollution in most cities in China (Gong et al., 2017; Wang et al., 2010; Wu et al., 2016), and has even surpassed other contamination sources in some cities.Vehicles are not the only source of severe air pollution.
https://carnewschina.com/2023/02/13/ranking-of-china-market-...
* OTOH, China is really ahead in battery-powered 2-wheelers, that replace the old scooter fleet, and that ought to do something.
* Still, China's air pollution is for the main part due to massive use of coal power, incinerators, and desertification bringing sand from Gobi desert. The linked study from grand-parent doesn't even mention any of these.
EV batteries introduce a price premium but the Model 3 is targeting Hyundai buyers not BMW buyers. Just look at the Ionic 5 price point.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42938734/tesla-best-selli... https://www.kbb.com/car-news/tesla-is-americas-best-selling-... https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-y/
I don’t see Hyundais in Palo Alto. I see Teslas. Perhaps you consider valley middle class.
https://carbuzz.com/news/lucid-delays-production-says-tesla-...
Enjoyed a brief heyday but rapidly faded as people moved on to a more convenient device?
That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings.
I can't really make up my mind on whether the fact that the model Y is the "best selling model of car" is something to hang your hat on these days. It's a great metric, sure, but it's been in a somewhat limited market. On it's face I can see it's appeal - size, space, EV, extra seating - its NOT A MINIVAN. But it seems like a fairly easy moat to breach. One thing about the Corolla was it's build quality was top notch it was a solid, reliable car and it seems more and more lately this isn't a hallmark of Tesla. I wouldn't be surprised for the model Y to keep the mantle of "best selling model" - particularly because of Tesla's lead in its ability to manufacture electric cars and the surface appeal of the model Y - but I wouldn't be surprised if it lost this lead as well.
What won me over: Rear window was easier to see through, the above mentioned Carplay/AA support, not a fan of Tesla's extreme minimalism extending to things like air vents, brand tainted by Musk.
While I have an EV6 (and my wife an ID.4), if I was on the market now, there's a ton of low-mileage Model 3 and Y out there, and the prices have come down significantly.
That's situation here in Cyprus, thus in spite of a lot of people with money willing to buy, only 0.8% of cars sold are electric vs ~20% in poorer countries that do have Tesla dealerships. Because when Tesla is there, everyone else tries hard to sell their electrics too.
This is not true, it's not 2017 anymore. Everyone is designing their EVs from "the ground up".
How is it that people can both think that Tesla will dominate because building EVs is simpler, but also that the legacy auto world can't figure out how to do it?
Most automakers have long since stopped basing their electric cars on platforms designed for ICE cars that have have EV components badly squeezed into whatever space they can 'find'.
They've been making platforms designed specifically to include EV drivetrain components for a while, and many have shifted to EV-specific platforms.
There's also literally nothing wrong with platform-sharing, by the way; it's more efficient use of design, manufacturing, and service/support networks. The "it must be PURELY designed from the GROUND UP to be a EV" is largely marketing who-haa that hasn't been relevant for a while.
The Ford Lightning? It's largely based off the F150. Who cares? It's still a brilliant car that has been selling like hotcakes and will convert a TON of good-ol-boy types to driving an electric vehicle.
But here's a list of cars with EV-specific platforms:
* Audi e-tron * BMW i-series * Chevy Bolt and Bolt EUV, as well as their entire Ultium platform of cars, which I believe includes the HUMMER) * Porsche Taycan * Ford Mach-E * Hyundai Ioniq 5 (and Kia equivalent) * Lucid Air * Rivian * Mercedes EQS * VW ID series * Polestar
I'm probably forgetting some?
All have things Tesla doesn't: an extensive dealer network for sales and service, a healthy parts distribution channel, the build quality and reliability people expect from such an expensive car, no worries about bullshit like being banned from getting parts because the company thinks your vehicle shouldn't be on the road, transmission/motor units that are properly sealed so they can be driven in heavy rain and through puddles without issue, windows that spontaneously shatter, their cars randomly braking on the highway, self-driving systems that like to slam into the back of emergency vehicles on the shoulder...
The one thing I absolutely hated about driving a Tesla was regenerative breaking. They should’ve made it optional.
I loved the Ford Mach-e GT.
Consumer Reports had it as the best EV for reliability.
I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.
A negative comparison on reliability with ICE just does not compute to me.
I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.
Anecdote about a Nissan Leaf: I'll never forget being on holiday in Sri Lanka, walking through a tiny, countryside village. I was on my way to see a Buddhist temple. I was surprised to see an all-electric Nissan Leaf. It blew me away. I guess she is still driving it today!
One surprise finding was that a major part of the EV faults were due to the 12v lead acid battery that some EVs (like Tesla) are now shipping lithium replacements for.
https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-...
How many miles/kilometers have you driven?
Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.
Which, honestly, can be said for lots of things.
My wife and I are in the market for a second car, after buying an ICE SUV at the beginning of the pandemic and having no car for 10 years before that (living in San Francisco).
There’s a lot of options for a $40,000+ primary family car, but my impression is that there is a notable lack of options in the “second car” or “economy car” categories. We already have the ICE SUV for road trips, camping trips, IKEA trips, etc. We will probably need a second car very soon (moving from the Bay Area to LA and less WFH schedules).
Am I just supposed to get a Leaf or a Bolt? Plug in hybrids seem very cool to me but barely exist in the US (is this really too much cognitive load to figure out how fuel economy works?). Where’s the $25,000 electric Corolla with 100 mile range?
Regarding cheap (-ish) EVs, you have Stelantis (Peugeot, Opel, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Chrysler). They sell a small hatchback, VW Polo sized, as an EV with, if memory serves well, a range of 300 km, for about 25k € in Germany. It is available as a Peugeot 208e, a Opel Corsa e and, more expensive and a cross-over SUV thingy, a Peugeot 2008e.
So it sure is possible. And a prime choice for a second car, in our case an EV for four, decent range and luggage space is simply out of budget for now. A smaller one, the classic second car, totally possible. But hey, you only replace cars if you have to, and now that is the big one. So no EV yet...
We recently decided to use for a 2000+ mile road trip instead of using our ICE minivan, and I was blown away with how well the Tesla did as a long road trip vehicle.
We had no range anxiety because of the Super Charger network, and stopping to charge for 45 minutes after driving for 3 hours was far more enjoyable than anticipated.
Where it really did well was also surprising. Have you ever been going up a slight grade on a long highway stretch and find yourself needing to pass a slower vehicle? Most cars I've owned, when already going 65+, take a bit of time to pass a truck going up a hill. Even my 400HP+ modified Subaru STI takes its time as it needs to build turbo pressure and RPMs before it'll get fast enough to comfortably pass up hill.
The Model 3 doesn't even know there's a hill. It'll go from 60 to 120 as fast as it goes from 0-60 like the hill doesn't exist. Fully loaded with 4 adults and their stuff too.
Combine the raw power the car has with the climate control, good sound, full glass roof, ample cargo space and legroom, and it's the best car I've ever used on a long trip, no question. It's just not sub-$40k (at least for most people - I bought mine for $35k from a family member).
They’re pretty reasonably priced here in the UK.
Model 3 was one of the most reliable cars in Germany in 2022.
"Germany’s ADAC, which is the largest automobile club in Europe, published the results of its latest reliability study, which analyzes vehicle breakdowns and their causes in 2022, and the Tesla Model 3 ranked at the top of the chart."
https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-...
I don't know much about other charging networks, but I've used non-Tesla chargers a handful of times over the past two years, and every time, it was a poor experience. They've been slow, some have stopped working a few minutes into a charge, or don't work at all. In two separate cases the chargers I drove to didn't actually exist, despite being directed to them by those networks' apps. In one case, they weren't built yet, and in another, the chargers weren't even properly mounted to the ground and getting blown around by the wind and leaning over as far as the underground cables would allow.
Prior to my roadtrip the charging network wouldn't have been much of a selling point for me since I usually charge at home. But after? I think it's far more important than I realized.
Is it less high tech than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company. Is it better constructed than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company.
They of course can squander that chance, but they never had such a chance before at all, to my mind.
That in itself is a good reason to buy a Tesla right now (it may evolve in just a few years in the future): it's the one with the best charging experience. Considering how much hassle a bad charging experience can be, I imagine this has an influence on sales figures.
Really loved the idea of an electric car / plug in hybrid but it feels like EVs are just not adequately designed for Canada.
The main issues are (A) not enough charging infrastructure (fixable) and (B) poor battery performance in cold weather.
I think the cold weather thing could be fixable but from my perspective it seems like EVs are designed with California in mind so there seems to be little incentive to fix those issues.
Additionally Canada wants all new cars to be EVs by somewhere around 2030 but it seems like a not very well thought out plan.
Personally I ended up going with a standard hybrid.
- Fantastic mileage in the city.
- Good cold weather performance.
- Highest reliability by consumers reports and other publications.
- No range anxiety.
- Battery lasts a very long time since it is used less and stays at a medium charge.
We never have charging issues, and we've gone to rural Saskatchewan, tourist Quebec and all parts in between. The trans-Canada has great supercharger coverage, rural Saskatchewan has welders you can unplug and tourist Quebec has chargers at the hotels.
I bet our battery lasts longer than yours. 99% of driving is local, we plug in at 50% and charge to 80%, which is a lot easier on a big battery like ours than the small battery you have. Even on road trips it basically stays between 20 and 80.
Wouldn't any car just be better if it were a minivan?
Unfortunately for VW, they are trying to cash in on the "cool" factor and nostalgia for the vintages buses and the vehicle is outrageously expensive. For $60k, I don't features in addition to gimmicks and the backseat is pretty tight. Not to mention the interior tech and controls for this first generation of VW ev's is comically bad.
Model Y is 2 times as expensive as a Corolla.
Plus you can go and find an older Corolla with 100k+ miles on it and pay perhaps $5k cash for it, then drive it for another 50-100k.
I don't see people in the service industry picking up a used Tesla, now or in the foreseeable future.
If that was the strategy, then it looks like it is working exactly as planned.
I am driving a 2016 minivan and no one I trust is offering an electric model yet. I hope Toyota wakes up, they have completely lost the plot.
The Corolla is purchased by those who want an affordable sedan, as well as the affluent who don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla and are putting their money in other things like their home and marketable securities.
The Ford F-150 is a vehicle used widely by commercial organizations as well as American retail consumers who can afford one.
All of this leads me to think if you want to know what popular vehicle sales really are, I suspect you have to look at the used car market and normalize by model, removing years or generations to understand what the average consumer is really buying.
I suspect that in a few years, batteries capable of thermal runaway will be prohibited. They're becoming unnecessary.
LFP chemistry will certainly become increasingly dominant over the next few years, particularly now that key patents have expired. But it doesn't supplant all usages of NMC yet, and isn't likely to for some time.
I'd be terrified of driving a car with byd battery tech. There are countless videos of their cars just spontaneously combusting while driving on a road, sitting on a parking lot without charging etc...
Given that it's the best selling car, maybe it's just that people are generally horrible at driving? At least in my area the drivers of these seem an order of magnitude more clueless than any others.
As a result you have production lines that were reasonably well suited for demand pre-covid, now having to deal with everyone stocking up on way more parts than they need because they don't want to deal with shortages again.
In fact for Toyota there are some 15+ Toyota SKUs and 15+ Lexus SKUs - ranging in price from the Corolla (compact) to the Sienna (minivan) to the BRZ (youth sports car) to the BZ4X (CUV EV) to the LS500 (executive sedan) to the Landcruiser (guerrilla infantry vehicle).
Took me maybe 50 cars of training to learn to recognise the difference when passing Teslas on the streets.. but now I finally do! :)
hell, a guy parks his tesla in front of my house daily to use the public charger.
https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/light-trucks-now-outselli....
https://www.statista.com/statistics/204212/north-america-car...
The experience of using it is a joy daily, simply put (and I’ve owned other EV’s previously).
I will be getting a Model X next.
teslas are also expected to have the highest number of recalls over a 30 year lifetime
https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a43625242/tesla-...
So new market sales numbers, will they hold up in coming years?
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/tesla-sal...
You say that in a country where three at least $40k+ full size pickups are the best selling models.
Then again my two cars and yacht are all used beaters.
My experience with the vision based parking system so far has been great though. The experience is pretty much the same in the vehicle as it was with ultrasonic sensors. There is also a pile of YouTube videos where you can see people testing weird scenarios and checking the on-screen distance from objects with a tape measure. It’s pretty solid.
Imagine Toyota with even 2-3% unsold due to people wanting electric or keeping their old Toyota's that last forever.
Thus, they're stuck in a pattern of under-building that reduces demand due to the many alternatives - it could be a vicious cycle.
Couple that with access to China: Toyota not so much, but Tesla is allowed to sell there because it put a factory there and uses BYD batteries. That's another vicious cycle: dealing with the devil to access that market only empowers the devil.
So it has little to do with EV's or with the Tesla model Y.
We are in a huge transition phase, with lots of inflation everywhere. For most people EV are still too expensive or inconvenient [1] and they don't want to buy a new ICE car or start a 5y leasing on a car they may soon not be allowed to use wherever they want.[2] Also they fear they won't be able to resell it. It makes more sense to keep that old, already well depreciated old car or buy a fairly recent second hand ICE, hybrid or EV that has already depreciated a lot.
My only non muscular vehicle right now is an ICE motorbike. There is no way I can afford an EV car and I don't want to deal with an ICE car I won't be able to sell for more than scrap value when EV prices will go down.
[1] if don't have parking space at home.
[2] many big cities have started banning diesel cars in center, will probably do the same for gasoline soon. ICE cars will soon become unsellable.
I've been wondering how many others are frustrated like I am.
I've hit the 10 year mark on my current ICE vehicle, and I sorta assumed EVs would be a lot more common and cheaper now. Even the small vehicles are being sold for luxury prices, and the 7-seaters (which I'm looking at) are priced in the high-end-yesteryear-sports-car tier.
I'm seriously considering just buying a Tahoe or Telluride and waiting another 10 years for an EV.
Not in Europe, I was surprised to read that Dacia Sandero a model designed to be cheap was the best seller this year(in Europe), they also hit record sales last year. There are lot of people that do not have the moneyor do not want to spend it on luxury. (and btw before someone points the bad safety rating of Dacia, most of the bad score is because of missing of modern active safety stuff)
https://www.romania-insider.com/dacia-sandero-best-sold-euro...
I.e. where people would buy a lot more utility cars before, they now buy more expensive bigger cars even if they don't need them. Those buying bigger cars are now buying SUVs.
Dacia ate the market of economy cars of FIAT, SEAT, and Pegeot, while those tried to move up market.
That's also why Dacia has the Duster ("SUV for poors") in their line up.
Purchase price, you've already touched on. You can't even get a USED Tesla for under $20K.
The second problem is charging. Apartments generally have a lack of EV chargers.
And who wants to buy a used Tesla (or any EV) even if the price was competitive?
The range degrades with the battery and replacing it costs more than the car is worth.
That's the trick, people living in apartments are not supposed to own and operate their own cars going forward.
As a live in an apartment myself I wasn't aware of that fact at the beginning, I kept asking myself: "how am I supposed to charge my car if I'm living on the 8th floor?". Turns out I was looking at the whole thing through the wrong lenses.
What's really perverse about it (there's no better word to describe it) is that us, people living in apartments, do currently have a smaller carbon footprint compared to people living in actual houses, and yet we are the ones being punished as a result of measures which are meant to improve our global carbon footprint. So the solution for me, if I'd still want to own a personal car, would be to increase my carbon footprint by moving to an actual house on the ground, preferably in suburbia because cheaper (where there's also no proper public transportation to speak of).
Intuitively, I guess most people would certainly be fine charging once a week for half an hour when going out (restaurant, shopping or else), given the average distance driven per week.
https://thedriven.io/2023/04/27/tesla-model-3-total-cost-of-...
And the Model Y is cheaper than the Toyota Rav4 which is in the same category. So cheaper purchase price, and no annual oil changes, cheap miles (at least over in Finland where gas is 2e/liter, 8.14usd/gallon and electricity is around 10euro cents/kwh).
People really need to remember maintenance costs over the ownership period.
In a Tesla all you're really paying for is tyre rotation / alignment / rubber replacements, and air filters. Plus the electricity, in place of fuel. The savings add up significantly.
Provided Tesla can deliver spare parts, which they frequently can't for months, which is a story in itself (hint: having to support x iterations may work for SW, but not for cars that are on the road for 10+ years)
I change my tires every 20,000-25,000 kms
for me it means every 3 years
my car runs on LPG, which is half the price of gas
Never ever done any particular kind of maintenance in over 10 years.
You can buy 6-7 brand new "my cars" with the money spent on a Tesla.
Yes, it's a cheap car, I chose it exactly because it's cheap and robust, I use it in a city, I park it on the road, there's no need for a >45k car, I would argue it's borderline stupid to buy a very expensive EV to drive it in a city.
EVs are expensive by default, their TCO might be lower in perfect ideal scenarios, until you run into an issue, most of the cost is due the complexity, non-EV cars are much much much dumber and simpler.
You can't independently fix an EV, there's no way.
What people really need to do is the actual calculation, instead of saying things like "the Tesla will make it up over its lifespan". Will it, really?
The difference between a model Y and Corolla is, what, $10k-15k? That is a huge difference to make up. Most of the maintenance requirements a ICE has are required by an EV, too (less oil changes). Parts are way more expensive on the Tesla than the Toyota.
Oh, and do you think that governments are going to just let EVs operate on subsidized electricity forever? No, they will directly tax it in the future. Meanwhile, gasoline prices could decrease over time as the world transitions to greener sources. After all, have to pump the oil (increase supply) while it has value.
TL;DR People who buy a Tesla to "save money" are likely in for a shock.
But yeah, Tesla’s interior build quality is not really comparable with other luxury cars.
Which only makes this even more remarkable. What's going to happen when the Tesla 2 comes out and sells for the same price as a Corolla?
Nobody wants to sell electric cars for cheap, why throw away the margins you can get by selling them for more?
I don’t see a great opportunity for them to lower costs more on a cheaper model. Tesla already went through the exercise of making the cheaper version and people are paying premium prices for it anyway.
Which makes it that much more impressive that the Model Y outsells the Corolla...
if there were, Corolla would outsell Tesla Y by a large margin.
What's the point of being a car dealer if you can't sell me a car!?
Tesla inventory is at an all-time high. This seems a demand issue.
Why does everyone think that everything Elon does is 4D chess?
Read the above back to yourself: The legacy autos are choosing to raise prices and lengthen lead times, while Tesla is choosing to lower prices and shorten lead times. It's that simple!
Do you think there's more to it than "choosing" to do these things?
I'm not quite ready to commit yet, but I've been looking into leasing an EV on and off for a while and availability is spotty for the more interesting models, and that's to say nothing of dealer markup.
Competing EVs have several things that depending on the driver make them more compelling than the options offered by Tesla, but I'd bet that a lot of people are willing to compromise if it means getting a car with the price and specs closer to what they're looking for now instead of weeks or months out.
https://www.thestreet.com/technology/ford-loses-nearly-60000...
Of course this may change with the economics of scale, but looks like the scale is not there yet.
As a result, other manufacturers will have to anticipate lower sales numbers, which means they would set higher prices (because much of the cost is in tooling and other fixed costs of production). It could create a nasty situation for other manufacturers, especially those that are not large enough spread the costs of EV manufacturing across other successful product lines.
People willing to drop that on a "repair" would probably rather buy upmarket instead. Which leaves a lot of older EVs driving around with potentially really poor ranges and clogging up charger networks.
We will have to see how it plays out. But they are lower maintenance.
They're really fun to drive. I own one and don't regret it. Obviously no car will appeal to everyone but clearly Tesla has a market despite the nay-sayers.
edit: The purchase experience beats traditional car makers hands down. No high pressure sales tactics or scams like rust preventer.
Nay-sayers also under-rate Tesla's mobile service. Go into the app, create a ticket, attach pictures. Get an estimate within hours (sometimes minutes). Accept, schedule. Tech comes to your house with all the parts and tools. Super easy.
Not much to maintain... motor coolant (ATF), coolant system, etc are lifetime sealed. Brakes last forever thanks to regen. Basically replace air filters every 3-4 years and tires per normal... which can also be done by mobile service.
When tesla owners say "sporty" they mean acceleration. Yes Teslas have mad acceleration. Not disputing that. But thats not a sporty drive. If anything thats more what you would get from a muscle car, which offers pure torque at the cost of basically everything else, which is what Tesla offers. Tesla isn't a sports car, it is a muscle car trapped in a sports car body.
Drive a Porsche, or Mercedes (C or S classes, the A classes are a joke), or BMW. These give you a sports drive. Smooth suspension, finely tuned transmission shifts, snappy steering, etc. These traits make up sporty drives. While power plays a component in that, it's not pure torque.
I realize that Tesla doesn't have a transmission before someone spits that out to me. But look at the electric Porsches and BMWs who mimick a transmission range to give you that, it isn't just a linear line like a Tesla. That's the difference between a mechanical drive and an emotional one. This is also why neither of these company's current offerings can beat out Tesla in 0-60 time. They could come close or beat it if they wanted to, but their clientele isn't looking for that, they want a traditional shift and acceleration so they offer that instead.
That said car enthusiast types were never Tesla's target market post-Roadster and they've excelled at building a product the public likes for other reasons as you've mentioned.
Yes you push the pedal and it go fast. Everyone with a Tesla loves to show that off that and I can't dispute it. But the actual ride quality is (or at least was) truly horrible. Terrible road noise and suspension that bottoms out and rebounds aggressively. This doesn't even address the countless concerns people have raised of build quality (like badly placed body panels, weatherstripping coming loose, bad locks, etc..
It really shocks me that people were buying Mercedes level prices for a car that was built worse than budget brands. Yes you got a sexy big screen (before that was common) and it had all the cool 360 cameras (before those were common), and it had the promise (more like an "IoU") for self-driving.
It is funny because I bought a new BMW and saved money. The beamer was a budget choice by comparison (by tens of thousands of dollars). Really happy I went that route after watching the next 5 years play out.
Disclosure: Early TSLA investor, no current exposure
Or my wife's Audi where the black coating on all the interior plastic scrunched up and peeled off. And that same car had a CVT transmission with so many failures Audi actually paid off repairs via a class action lawsuit (I got a check for around $4k! first and only time a class action actually benefitted me and not the lawyers). Oh and the defective Bosch ignition coils that caused misfires.
For what it is worth my Model Y (Dec 21) doesn't have odd panel gaps or other problems. It has extremely minimal maintenance requirements. I don't care about the price of gas or even electricity because my solar panels charge it for free. And it is fun to drive.
Not everyone will like the ride, the features, or whatever else... but they are selling every single one that rolls off the fully-booked production line.
Edit: Ref: https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/12c49ir/_/jf2k...
Have Tesla Service confirm parts to your VIN/vehicle model (LR vs Performance).
I truly beg you to talk to an actual Tesla owner to refine your opinions.
EVs are practically 0-maintenance machines. Unless you need to change your tires... you just don't think about oil changes or motor belts breaking or engine filters clogging and all the other nonsense that breaks in an ICE car.
If you hate Tesla that's a completely valid opinion, but don't pretend that people are buying Teslas just to spite themselves... the user experience is, for the vast majority of people, simply great.
Hi! I'm an actual Tesla owner. My Model X is approaching 3 years old.
It is the worst car I have ever owned. Almost everything that can break on it, has broken. I would care much less if Tesla would actually try to fix it when you take it in for service (as mine has been for a total of weeks), instead they lie and say things like "that's normal" when it clearly isn't.
I hate the car, I hate the service experience, and now, for a fun bonus extra, I hate Elon.
I will never buy another Tesla.
- "Electric vehicles are less reliable than gas cars, according to a survey of UK drivers." [1]
- "Kia was the most reliable EV maker in the study, while Tesla was the least reliable." [1]
- "Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28" [2]
- "The Model Y still has body hardware issues with the tailgate and door alignment, paint defects, and multiple other problems." [2]
[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-least-reliable-ev-bran...
[2]: https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reli...
Until your AC fails in your s/x outside of warranty, or you get unlucky enough to have your Y's heat pump fall apart like thousands of people in cold climates have over the last few years. Both repairs are $5000+ and seem to happen much faster than similar issues in conventional vehicles with belt driven AC compressors.
Tesla are an amazing company, that made EVs mainstream, but I'm never going to buy one. They don't know what the word "privacy" means.
> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla
became
> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car, or a Tesla
since the addition of the article "a" seemed to change the meaning. had it been
> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or Tesla
it would have conveyed even different meaning to me.
I'm kind of curious what the GP's post actually meant at this point.
Maybe EVs will be longer lasting and lower maintenence on average in the long run, but we won't really know until the average EV age catches up with ICE cars.
Tesla's in particular are inordinately dependent on a single company for parts and repairs. That increases the risk of being able to easily maintain an older car in the future.
Maybe there's something about people who are first adopters of "environmentally friendly" cars feeling a sense of moral license, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing, and end up being less conscientious on the road as a result.
Or maybe the rest of us just notice these bad drivers more because the cars stick out on the road as new and unusual.
Or maybe the drivers tend to just be rich, distracted assholes.
Not all of them, obviously, but enough.
I've noticed that with taxis. In my city, taxi drivers have a reputation for driving like arseholes. I thought this too, but I started paying more attention and I realised that the vast majority of taxi drivers were driving entirely unremarkably. Before when I saw something which confirmed a prejudice, I thought it was more evidence in favour of that prejudice; now I realise that it was the Texas sharpshooter fallacy all along.
It seems to be true for just about every prejudice I've ever been told about. BMW drivers use their indicators just as often as anyone else. Owners of cheap Toyotas are just as likely to drive unreasonably fast as owners of high powered sports cars.
This is different from the Tesla drivers who think that their acceleration always lets them cut in front of people.
When I used to ride my motorcycle the vehicle that put me in the hospital was a Prius. Tesla Model S cars are wide and annoying to lane split against but the drivers are just drivers.
Ultimately, this appears to be purely a cultural thing. People want to say that someone else is not better than them. So they will find some way to attach some unlikeable attribute to them.
You know, the old "despite its good brakes, the BMW will usually stop with a jerk".
Cars were a huge mistake.
Corollas are tiny and like a relic of a bygone era. These new vehicles shouldn’t be more agile on top of being way bigger.
Yeah it's incorrectly shifting the responsibility to the victim but at this point whatever prevents injury/death/stress.
The problem is it would be abused to trick drivers.
If I see a Range Rover, Mercedes, Audi, BMW or any large pick-up in my rear view mirror I expect to be aggressively tailgated and I'm generally correct. This has not happened to me with a Tesla, that I can recall.
- Had a confirmed appointment but when I showed up I still had to wait 45 minutes.
- Salespeople were clueless about the features of the car they were trying to sell. I knew more after 30 minutes of online research and had to constantly call out their bullshit.
- The car I had reserved was somehow no longer available, and then they tried to upsell me on extras I didn't want.
- I wanted manufacturer financing but they told me that wouldn't be possible and I had to get theirs at a much higher rate. I again had to threaten to walk out to get the advertised rate.
- All the dealerships in the area had priced their vehicles at $10K over MSRP, and the extra was pure profit for them. Heck they were making significantly more money on the car than the manufacturer themselves, all because of a government mandated monopoly.
And all this was for a >$50K luxury vehicle.
Meanwhile a friend configured a Tesla online and it showed up at his doorstep a couple weeks later, with the exact advertised price, financing and selections.
Dealerships make half their money from the service department. EV's require very little service. So they don't want to sell and EV, and it shows.
Go to a Ford dealer and try to buy a Mustang Mach-E and they'll try really hard to convince you to buy an ICE Mustang.
The worst dealership experience I ever had was when I was buying my first car back in 2003. I was 21 at the time, and I just wanted something reliable and efficient that I could carry friends in. I told sales people that it must have 4 doors, A/C, and under $10K. And one of them tries to sell me a Pontiac Sunfire convertible for $12K. I re-iterated what I was looking for. Reliable, efficient, 4-door, A/C, under $10K. He showed me an $13K Mustang. I thanked him for wasting my time and left.
Tesla makes is so damn easy. I had a similar experience as your friend. I spent 30 seconds minutes choosing the configuration (Model 3 Performance, blue, no FSD, black interior), filled out the online credit application, and a week later, picked up the car from the service center downtown. The delivery experience was just as simple. Just had to sign some final delivery paperwork and some DMV paperwork that was already printed and just needed a quick scan and signature. Less than 5 minutes, and the car was mine. I was blown away how fast it was. I literally said to the guy there, "That's it? The car is mine and I can drive away now?". I was incredulous.
Dealerships could easily make the experience this easy if they wanted, but no, they want to play games with you to fuck you over.
I'm currently buying a Rivian Truck, pricing is straightforward and I could be buying a T-Shirt on a Shopify site. Simple, I know the price and the experience, while not always easy, has been straightforward.
My wife has suddenly needed a new car and leans towards a Mercedes or Audi EV and we're suddenly slammed back into going onto a lot and dealing with the normal car sales bullshit and it's a nuisance. Just test driving a car (which is a fairly significant thing for someone who's not driven an EV) is a high pressure situation.
Because I don't think that's entirely true...
Worse: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/toyota-bet-wrong-on-evs...
After comparing price (Hyundai/Kia 10% more) and features (lol) Tesla is easily a winner. Sure it's not for everyone, but driving traditional car feels weird now. Car without an app or phone key just feels unbelievable.
Well they'd just be even more dominate if they sold a fully EV corolla without all the "tech" BS every Tesla comes with.
And there are plenty of car ferries to/from Cyprus, so you can get one there for under €100.
On the other hand, Tesla (and the other new electric companies) have nothing else. It's electric or die. It's carve a space out in the market now, while the legacy players are still dragging their feet, still figuring out battery issues or production issues Tesla dealt with 5-10 years ago, still figuring out how to make good software for the last 20 years, still trudging along as if things haven't much changed. Kodak didn't lose because digital cameras were harder, they lost because they didn't want to cannibalize their existing products with something easier and cheaper.
Including as you mentioned having a heated garage compared to people such as myself who have to rely on street parking which can comprise both the battery distance and the ability to consistently charge.
Lastly I do think there's a catagory of people who take pride in figuring out how to make systems work for them specifically (in this case EVs in Canada). I myself am that way about many things in my life but when it comes to my vehicle i just want it to work.
It's good to know that your experience is working though and hope for EV coverage to expand in the future.
1. Small enough to reasonable park in a dense city
2. Has 7 seats, so we can drive with 2 kids, Grandma, and some of the kids friends
3. Has 300+ miles per charge
All Tesla sensors have been reduced to just cameras which can fail in weather, fog, rain, snow.
Remember Musk outsources safety for savings/profit as someone else's expensive problem.
A beacon could save lives for those who are active and willing to carry it as one extra level of protection.
But like I said the problem is spoofing for those that want to be an irritant.
I got a 2015 Volvo with their "European Pickup" option and even though you went through a US based dealership that was how it worked. Also they didn't "package" options. You didn't need to get some "Cold Weather Package" to just get heated seats for example every option was ala-carte at a fixed price.
The BMW and Mercedes experiences were a frustrating combo of the usual dealership tactics, large price markups and many of the options being unavailable in the US. The Y was also superior on features like storage. The BMW has neither a frunk or a sub trunk like the Tesla. Both the BMW and the Mercedes don’t allow the end user to open the hood at all.
At least in EV-forward markets, this isn't much of a thing anymore, simply because they can't fight the fact that EVs have become the new aspirational cars.
On local trips in the cold (where it's frequently below 0F) I've not noticed any difference in power. It may very well have reduced specs but I'd never no. I've not been motivated to test it with snow, ice, and other cars on the road.
If I were driving 280+ miles per day in the dead of winter I'm sure I'd notice since the range does seem to shrink in the cold. Then again, I've never been impacted by that since I only drive about 40-80 miles a day at most on a typical day.
Is it? Feels like it was designed to be an EV, considering it has a massive frunk.
Just wish we had the battery breakthrough needed to give these vehicles some real range.
> ... windows that spontaneously shatter, their cars randomly braking on the highway, self-driving systems that like to slam into the back of emergency vehicles on the shoulder...
Scary! :)
Over the last half a decade they've become the fifth biggest brand in Australia ahead of Mitsubishi and Hyundai.
Toyota could have done that a long time ago (they know a thing or two about supply chain, don't they?) but they prefer to keep the shortage as an excuse for their poor sales performance.
You've expressed this idea about parts a few times in this thread, yet haven't actually proven that.
How about some comparisons of what some parts, common to both a Model Y and a Corolla, cost?
I'll give it a shot:
A control arm for a 2022 Model Y: about $150. A control arm for a 2022 Corolla: about $150.
Rear door window glass for a 2022 Model Y: about $190. Rear door window glass for a 2022 Corolla: about $190.
Hood for a 2022 Model Y: about $500. Hood for a 2022 Corolla: about $477.
I'm not even cherry picking - literally just thinking of a part and searching for prices. Without a doubt, there are parts on a Tesla that cost a lot more than the same part on a Corolla, but I haven't found them.
Point is: you're incorrect when you repeat the myth that Tesla parts are any more expensive than any other vehicle of the same model year. Most parts cost the same.
Bigger point: of the parts most frequently replaced on a ICE vehicle, the Tesla typically doesn't have those same parts. Fan belts, fuel injectors, timing belts, clutches, valves, alternators, and so on.
TL;DR People who buy a Tesla to "save money" are likely saving money.
If reports continue to be positive that it doesn't negatively affect handling I may give it a try (depending on the cost). Of course another great Tesla feature is mobile service... I'm curious if they'd be able to do a suspension swap. They can already do tire replacement and rotate/balance. You schedule it in the app and they show up at your house to do the work. It is extremely convenient.
A good car but not a great one as I had been led to believe.
On paper and all the glowing reviews had me believing it was something very special. Maybe on a track it is (I just drove it spiritedly on public roads)
I tried a few other cars that week and found the C8 to be lacking in comparison. (Mclaren GT, M3/5/8 competitions, Aston Martin Vantage, a few others).
Granted many of the other cars were more expensive. But the M3/M4 comps arent much more and I thought they were a clear level above in every way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also, of the 3 C8s I sat in one of them had laughably crooked stitching on the dash. I get that it’s a Chevy, but that to me shows the quality control is not there.
If we are talking subjective value, then yes Tesla definitely wins. They have built so much subjective value that it overcomes their numerous faults.
I also think being environmentally conscious and the desire for durability is a much stronger incentive than the points mentioned.
Tesla pundits predict big sales of Cybertruck wraps and accessories as customers seek the status of customization for an truck that many, many will end up having.
Definitely. This is one of the reasons why dealerships are reluctant with EVs: apparently a big chunk of their profits come from servicing the cars they sell.
In the long run, yes.
If EV conversion becomes a major thing (which could happen if tax credits applied to conversions and if simple, cheap bolt-in kits ever hit the market) then auto mechanics might be quite busy for the next decade or two converting part of the existing ICE fleet to EV.
Why do some people refer to cars with female gender?
The value proposition of a hybrid makes EVs difficult to stomach, why get one EV when you can get two hybrids for the same price? Toyota will 100% jump on EVs once they become economical, but until then they are still making the car for the masses.
That's because every ICE car gets 400-600 miles per tank, and there are filling stations essentially everywhere.
For EVs, more range compensates for all concerns about charging availability.
All the chargers at work were busy? No problem if you've got several days of range.
Loved ones live in the middle of nowhere, with limited options for charging en route? Friend living in a flat who can't help you charge over night? Not a problem if you've got plenty of range.
Changed jobs and got a longer commute, or lost access to charging at work? Not a problem with 300 miles of range.
En route chargers along your route only charge at a meagre 40 miles per hour? Competing charger networks mean you only have access to some chargers? 300 miles of range means you can just go to a better one.
Worried about battery degradation with age, or lower battery performance due to your area's weather? Want to use the fastest charging, which only charges to 80% capacity? If you've got range to spare, no problem.
The situation will probably be different in a decade or two, when every gas station gets equipped to charge EVs at 300+ miles per hour.
If your ICE car gasoline cost 4x the price at any gas station except your home one, then you too would want a tank as big as possible.
Practical sedans in the same category as the Model 3 like Nissan Altima and Chevy Malibu get more than 550 miles of range.
If ICEs really wanted to compete on range, they could easily extend this to a thousand miles and be still lighter than current EVs.
It appears that Chinese regulators forced them to put it back.
For example:
https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-ev-policy/
https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/en/road/Vehicles/bonus-mal...
https://europe.autonews.com/environmentemissions/france-rese...
https://www.idealista.it/en/news/financial-advice-italy/2022...
You can buy it new for 7,300 euros taxes included in Italy.
Full optional.
I change oil more or less every 20,000 kms, which is more than two years driving for me.
I change it myself, I only need to buy the oil that costs about 20-25 euros for a full change.
Other than that, the car is basically maintenance free.
I liked the Tesla software and easy supercharger access. The model Y also felt more spacious, especially in the trunk.
I would summarise it as a much better UX in the model Y.
- Cockpit -- EV6 has a panoramic (horizontal) display, plentiful buttons, and a heads-up display. I found this much more ergonomic for my eyes and hands than Tesla's all-in-one center-mounted display.
- Availability of Android Auto/CarPlay -- Tesla's software is more polished than Kia's but I'd rather project my phone. All my stuff's on it.
- EV6 is the #1 recommendation for its class in Consumer Reports as well as #1 in projected dependability for same.
- quality concerns (which possibly are overstated for the average purchase)
- worries over phantom braking
- V2L
- CarPlay
- I was swayed by Elon's politics, but that likely wouldn't have mattered if it had been a slam dunk decision for me.
- Supercharger network is a lesser concern for me, as I own my home. I did do a road trip from Houston to San Diego and back. As far as I could tell, between major cities, EA vs Supercharger coverage was equivalent along the relatively unpopulated stretches of I-10 and I-8
However, given the price differential now vs then, I would likely go for a low mileage used Model 3 now.
Aside from that, if you want range, the Y beats the EV6, although the EV6 charges faster (theoretically - if you can find a 350 kW charger, and if the rate can be sustained)
It truly makes no sense why the NHTSA seemingly works so hard with crash testing, yet they see no problems with a 5000lb family sedan that goes faster than a Ferrari F40.
they are bad drivers without accidents because everyone else is watching out for them.
The between the rear headrests and huge slanted C-pillars you had a tiny sheet of paper sized opening to see out. I honestly thought the mirrors were adjusted wrong and were looking at the roof. Couple that with a half-baked 360 reversing camera that turned every obstacle into a trapezoidal blur, reversing parking that car between two other cars at the end of the drive was terrifying experience.
Nice car though.
For parking, I don't think I have looked at anything but cameras for the last 15 years. The camera is so much better than both looking backwards and using the center mirror. The rear window doesn't show the most important thing you want to see when parking: the area of ground closest to your car. Especially with 360 cameras because you can then "look" backwards without missing anything happening elsewhere. I definitely bought my last car without 360 cameras several years ago.
Aside, IDK if the Polestar 4 is "the new Polestar".
The Polestar 2 is on the roads - I've seen them, and the 3 hasn't even shipped yet, now due in 2024: https://electrek.co/2023/05/11/polestar-delays-polestar-3-pr...
What does that make the 4? The one after the new one? The vapourware?
Of course, additional supply should normally decrease prices, but maybe there’s something weird going on. Here are some possible mechanisms I dreamed up:
1. Could the various manufacturers (collectively bringing lots of cash to break into the business) be bidding up the cost of some inputs? If high demand allows the market to bear higher prices, maybe everyone just ends up paying more?
2. As EV moves from “government environmental policy compliance program” to “luxury essential”, the types of cars on the market change. Just because it’s technically possible to make a cheap EV, doesn’t mean they will be readily available. By analogy, air-conditioned seats are no engineering marvel, but are usually only offered in upmarket vehicles, probably as a type of price discrimination.
If you are really concerned about battery life, get a vehicle with an LFP battery. Those are estimated to have a 750,000 mile life.
Really? I've never seen a 200,000 mile car with the same power or mileage as a brand new car -- the tolerances are not as tight. The loss might not be as dramatic as seen on a battery, but it's usually >5%.
In which you’re mostly left with the cost of the battery itself, which today is about $7k. But in 5 years will be $4k
I know ~6 mechanics.
And as far as I know, the polestar is designed as an EV too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Modular_Architecture_p...
There is no body designed around the constraints of routing exhaust or transmission elements. It is just an empty box.
The first polestar built off of a dedicated EV platform will be the polestar 3.
My Polestar 2 has a glass roof too. I think it's part of the "plus" pack?
Does that model also not require oil changes?
Ah yes, the $100 annual cost of oil changes.
EVs are cheaper to maintain, generally. But the Tesla is a premium vehicle for which no after market parts are available, so there's a significant gap there.
I have two ICE vehicles and I change the oil for each myself according to the manufacturers' recommended maintenance schedules. Changing the oil for one car, once, costs $42 for oil and $16 for the filter. The yearly cost for one car with a 7500 mile recommendation is about $116 (two total changes a year typically, though it looks like I did it three times last year for that vehicle).
I've had a Model 3 for 2 years now. Total cost of ownership (excluding insurance and registration fees): $1578. That's ALL costs, including electricity used to charge the battery. The majority of those costs: a set of new tires at $1050.
As far as a lack of after market parts go: what parts would you expect to see on the after market? The things one needs to buy for a Tesla are represented quite well in the after market. Tires, brake pads, cabin air filters - plenty to choose from, and widely available at any auto parts store. Tell me more about this "significant gap" of after market parts.
If we naively assume that every 21k miles driven drops 1% of capacity, then after another 1 million miles I'll be at 50% capacity. That'd still give me 4x the range I need on a daily basis.
Even if the rate of degradation were 2-3x my estimates, the battery in my car is more likely to allow my car to drive further than even the most babied, well taken care of, internal combustion engine ever could.
As far as we know, the original battery pack had an issue after 290,000 km (180,000 miles) and was replaced under warranty. However, Tesla was initially figuring out the issue and installed a loaner battery, which was used for half a year or 150,000 km (93,000 miles). Then, Tesla installed a new, final battery. We don't have any info about any further replacements, so it might be the first 1 million km battery?
In terms of drive units. The Tesla Model S P85 is a single-motor, rear-wheel-drive car. High power and torque was an issue in the early Teslas, which caused a few motor replacements. Three units were replaced by 680,000 km and the fourth one was running up to 1,000,000 km. We don't have any info on whether anything happened after that.
For reference, that famous million mile Tesla went through three batteries and eight motors [1].
[1]: https://thedriven.io/2022/06/15/tesla-model-s-owner-passes-i...
IIRC, one of the big reasons Teslas are comparatively expensive is because their batteries are gigantic relative to their range. They're basically using a lot of energy from the battery to power cooling systems to keep the battery cool, which means they degrade much more slowly.
You can look up user-generated plots of average battery degradation and see that most Teslas still have 90% of their range after 100k miles.
Other cheaper EVs manage this equation differently and their batteries do degrade more quickly.
I'm sorry, what? Who's to say a linear acceleration can't be an "emotional drive"? This is pure personal preference. You're extrapolating based on your own opinions, and I guarantee isn't a universal sentiment.
Personally, I'd want a electric car that behaves like an electric car, not trying to simulate a transmission that doesn't exist. This has the same vibe as "mount a speaker to play fake engine sounds on a near-silent EV, because that's what people who grew up with muscle cars expect to hear".
To be fair, a significant chunk of normal cars have this too.
>Who's to say a linear acceleration can't be an "emotional drive"?
Sometimes, you want to turn corners too (electric cars have a disadvantage in this area because they're a lot heavier) but in a typical city you don't really have to do that very much so the straight-pull power gets you 90% of the sports car experience.
Not that that's inherently a bad thing- Mustangs are the only car Ford still sells for a good reason (and the base Tesla wouldn't sell if it had economy-car horsepower)- but if you want a car like that capable of turning corners with that speed then you need to spend a little (or a lot) more.
When you live in a city, this is the only sporty thing you can experience. You aren't going to speed down the freeway at 90 MPH, if ever, you aren't going to practice drifting or anything fun like that.
It is a "sporty" sedan experience that is limited to leaving other cars in the dust as you quickly speed up to the 30 MPH speed limit. Oh, and it is still a sedan, so I can do that while taking my kid to his Chinese class.
Tesla made and will make an actual sports car (the Tesla Roadster and its successor), so it is not like that segment has been forgotten for EVs. BUT there just isn't a huge market for those, or maybe it is better served by the cheaper WRX or BRZ (a $30k small sport EV roadster? Ya, I could buy that).
For me personally, Teslas are some of the most fun cars I've ever driven. I've driven Mercedes C class and BMW 3 series. Teslas have way better acceleration, and the responsiveness of the steering is awesome for me.
I am very familiar with what sporty handling means.
I like the simplicity of an all electric drivetrain but I’m a single car household so range anxiety and charger time/availability is a real consideration still.
I guess it's technically not a minivan(?), but it's not very far from it!
Not to mention things like tires have a lifespan. Even if they aren't worn out, most tires are not meant to be used for longer than around 5 years. As the rubber ages, its composition changes and it does not perform to the rated specifications. Even cheap tires are $100/ea for everything larger than a subcompact economy car. $400 for tires, divided by 5 years; you get the idea.
Car ownership in America does not need to be expensive, but it's nothing like the European mentality.
I took my car to a mechanic for an unrelated issue and asked them to change the oil and check fluids while they had it in the shop (I bought it about 6 months earlier) and they called to tell me they weren't going to change it because it wasn't necessary and had paperwork to prove it. This was in the Netherlands in a small town. But here I drive my car 50km a week vs 50km a day when I lived in the US.
What? Back when I drove a Corolla (in the U.S.) I never changed my oil more than once a year, and no one ever pestered me about it. Where did you get that?
Things like tyres are normally bought part-worn. My last set was $25/tyre, inc fitting, with 5mm tread left. Degradation can be determined by visual inspection - rubber does degrade, but it isn't a safety hazard until there are cracks allowing light to get to the cords in the tyre (light degrades the cords, which is a safety hazard).
It's like the iPhone. When it was released to years afterwards, enthusiasts breathlessly posted about how it was nothing like the Nokia whatever or the Windows Mobile whatever.
They posted about the factories and who was first and established companies and articles about how the iPhone had no copy and paste or this or that.
Meanwhile, the iPhone surged ahead. Everyone I knew who had one raved. It was apparent that the enthusiasts were blindsided. People without an opinion were buying this device. It was going to rule!
Same with Teslas. Rave reviews from my network of early buyers of their non-sports-car. Online all sorts of warnings and complaints. Years later, rave reviews from my friends. Turns out it works out. People online can find 400 sources for their stuff. The factories are in tents. There are gaps in the panels. FSD isn't fully self driving.
But people love it. And now we find ourselves at immutable fact: best selling car in the world.
There are features on this car that should be standard on every car in the planet, and one thing Tesla will accomplish over the next few years is force car manufacturers to implement those features. And not nickel and dime you for premium audio in two trims out of 12 and list 160 features on an about this car page. It’s bananas. Anyone that’s ever bought a Tesla will never step a foot into a dealership to be talked down by some kid about how they need to check with the manager about the price of a some mid fit bs suv, while trying to sell you a tire warranty.
The first Tesla model S were particularly not very reliable. Lot of equipments, new vertical integration from Tesla on many parts, unreliable premium technology such as air suspension…
The model 3 and y are a bit better. The electric (not hybrid) BMW i3 from the same period has been one of the most reliable BMW, a more experienced brand with ICE cars having similar equipment.
If you wanted reliability in 2013, a base Dacia was probably a better choice.
That level of acceleration generally requires a pretty rowdy ICE with the taps wide open.
This is about the acceleration from 0-60 in 3 seconds.
Because of how quietly a fast EV can perform this feat, the argument is that it's encouraging bad/antisocial driving behavior in general.
When an ICE does that sort of 0-60 time the whole neighborhood hears about it. That alone has a moderating effect on most drivers behavior even if their ICE vehicle is capable of it.
Seems pretty quiet in the cabin getting to 60 in under 2 seconds with the plaid.
Like, how about I share a video of a hellcat 0-60 but turn down the audio to 1% and call it quiet?
The benefits are clear. Immense range, lower fuel consumption, longer maintenance intervals vs an ICE only, etc.
Most turbo failures are from not doing oil changes on time or crappy modified ECU tunes.
For this kind of question about maintenance, I wish I could find a histogram or at least quartile summaries of per-vehicle distances per year.
I can understand that someone who had to bring twice his car feels like it is unreliable, and someone who never had to visit once nor feels like it is the most reliable car.
On the other hand, that's definitely more expensive than street parking and not everyone will be able to afford it, so your statement is overall correct for the majority of people.
assuming you find one at an affordable rate.
Where I live there are no available parking spaces, and parking garages are all fully booked, but even if they weren't, you can't install your own charger.
There are a few properties on sale, but the starting price is around 40 thousand euros for 16 square meters.
That's such a weird thing to say. What do you mean not supposed to own? For healthy young people - ok, fine, fair enough. How about the disabled? The old and frail? People with kids? People who drive for work? Where are the above meant to park and charge? And please don't say these usecases are going to be replaced with autonomous cars, that's complete nonsense, especially for specific usecases like disabled people who need specially adapted cars.
disincentives work the same way of incentives, but in the opposite direction.
EVs are an hassle to own if you live in a dense urban area, like those you can find in many European cities. I predict many people will give up on owning a car when confronted with the drawbacks.
> like disabled people who need specially adapted cars
disabled people have reserved parking spots, that will eventually be equipped with an EV charger
The previous owner replaced the air bags (springs) on my car so I couldn't say if they actually failed or if he did as part of a refresh when he lowered the car. They're not super expensive, but the aftermarket ones are that much cheaper. Of course the X5 (especially the first generation) is one of the least reliable vehicles BMW's brought to market. It's the electronics and pump that get real pricey, but on the E39 they pretty much never fail.
I don’t understand why Toyota has not produced a model like this and is doubling down on their Hybrids and hydrogen engines.
Most buyers though just want a boring reliable car. If a known and Trusted brand made a car that was just 10% more expensive and 10% less attractive on specs than a Tesla, then Toyota would eat their lunch I think.
The Supra has a BMW engine, a BMW gearbox and a BMW interior with a BMW infotainment system, while the Toyota 86 is a joint project between Toyota and Subaru, with a Subaru engine and built in Subaru's plant.
It's a shame they've lost it.
some times stuff is just borked up until a certain point and some of us get unlucky with the quicker to die versions.
sucks, but we need to look at the averages, not the outliers.
* editing to add that I would still recommend my car make and model, because it's just so damned awesome, but I would hate for others to go through what I went through.
Doesn't really matter, obviously EVs are the future.
I think the growing pains we are seeing is that new companies are trying to build cars, and don’t have the experience of traditional automakers.
There’s a heck of a lot of institutional knowledge that goes into integrating all the components of a car. The newcomers have simplified a lot of it, but are definitely hitting some of the stumbling blocks of old.
EVs don't have mechanical drivetrains but they still have chassis and suspension which can cause many problems.
A turbo has about as many parts as the entire electric drivetrain. There's just a lot less to go wrong and you don't need lubrication or maintenance for solid-state non-moving parts.
Any Tesla that's had problems with its air suspension got a shorter service life than I (and plenty of other E39 owners) did. Besides Tesla's struggles with their conventional suspension components are well documented in a series of non-OTA recalls.
Everything's relative, and relative to an ICE automobile executing a 3-second 0-60 time, an EV doing the same is silent.
Silent enough to make the driver far more likely to do it and convince themselves they're doing it without being antisocial.
But at this point you're just willfully ignoring the correctness of that statement and I'm basically talking to a piece of sheetrock.
It's possible to get _better_ visibility from a camera than a mirror. e.g. good placement, adapting to low light.
"Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable,"
"It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy," while another added, “We need a new platform designed as a blank-sheet EV."
2. Toyota is behind. Check what the Chinese and Germans are doing. Though you can't really do that since most of those cars aren't sold in the US.
Volkswagen had a market share of ICE cars of ~20%, for EVs it's now closer to 1%. EVs are way easier to build and a lot of Chinese companies are doing it successfully. They are offering cheaper EVs. They are selling in Mideast/Asia and now start to enter Europe as well.
None of these cars is particularly bad - while I'd still take the Korean EVs before anything else today, the Chinese are coming. German manufacturers only produce premium level cars few people can afford and they produce them badly. ID.3 is too expensive for its segment and too much of the car just doesnt work well.
>What stands out most is Tesla's integrated central control unit, or "full self-driving computer." Also known as Hardware 3, this little piece of tech is the company's biggest weapon in the burgeoning EV market. It could end the auto industry supply chain as we know it. One stunned engineer from a major Japanese automaker examined the computer and declared, "We cannot do it."
https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla...
The downside, of course, being that most of their offerings appear quite, uh, boring.
Upside? Anecdotally, my 26 year old Toyota Land Cruiser (With 300k miles on it!) has cost me less in workshop visits and parts over the 140k miles I've owned it than the missus' 2016 VW Passat has over 30k miles of ownership. And the Passat isn't a bad car at all. Has the Land Cruiser beat on fuel economy, though.
The subsidies the government introduced over a decade ago to incentive sales were pretty cray. They even exempted electric cars from road tolls. (This has been removed) has boosted the sale of electric cars enormously- Norway has the most e-cars per capita in the world. At least last time I checked.
As a result, I have a lot of friends and coworkers that own Telas. Nearly all love them and would not trade.
However, the build quality is subpar. Nearly all have had their car in the shop at least once. The rather extreme lack of spare parts has been a big problem for the owners. I think this has been improved for a while but I am not certain. Some had to wait months for a spare part needed to fix their problems.
Primarily it has been water leaks, parts that are not "fitting together" right in interior and exterior. The second is the touchpad control system. I have wondered if this could in part be due to the extreme cold we have every now and again.
But like I said the owers are still in love with their cars and would not trade it.
The newer Supras and now GR Corolla also seem pretty exciting to me. Toyota is also (one of) the last manufacturer still making mid-sized trucks with manual transmissions.
And which "tech" is top notch with Tesla, self driving? Their marketing is more than just incredibly good so.
What has changed is the technology behind controlling those cars. On that front, it surprises me in absolutely no way that Tesla, an information technology company, does business in ways that the car industry can't even dream of.
But ok, only software is tech, got it. So when exactly is mechanical engineering no longer a STEM discipline? Seriously, that take is simple hybris of the software crowd, and totally ignoring all the hardware tech all of us use all the time. But ok, a while ago the only measure of car quality was chassis panel fitting (if there ever was a truely German over engineering nonsense, that is it), now it is the feel of the car entertainment system. To each generation their own marketing abuse of technology I guess.
So only new technology is technology? What a daft definition.
Everything they sell seems to be a bit if everything. I find their cars really ugly.
The Corolla is closer to a hot Corolla as it uses the same chasis.
What has changed is the way the car is controlled. No longer are cars controlled by physically connected cables and wires that move to user input, cars are now controlled digitally by computers that respond to user and environmental input. This is where the technology is, and this is where tech companies like Tesla naturally and obviously have an edge on car companies like Toyota.
While I think this take on "tech" is just ignorant, it shoes why Teslas market cap still is were it is. Good for them I guess...
"Technology" in the sense as Hacker News uses it? Yes.
Unless you want to argue that Windows 3.11 and Blackberry and 8086 today are tech as in the tech industry.
Windows 3.11 and 8086 are no-longer in active development. But the Windows operating system and the Intel x86 chipset are still being developed, and are relevant topics of current conversation.
Similarly, "cars" aren't new as a concept. But recent news developments regarding recently developed cars counts as tech relevant to Hacker News.
The specs and price gap between a Renault Zoe (Inexpensive, with consequently low acceleration, top speed, handling and range, but absolutely a joy to use in a city or on short trips - perfect balance of price/specs) and a Tesla M3/MY is quite wide and should allow some other manufacturers to wedge themselves into a rather popular segment, with profit.
And yet... there's hardly anything better than a Zoe, they immediately approach or pass the price of a Tesla (looking at you Volkswagen, Cupra, Audi, Mercedes, etc) while being worse by an impressive margin (paltry top speeds, uncomfortable ranges, rather primitive features, etc). You start getting cars something favorably comparable with a baseline Tesla M3 RWD when you add a good 20k to its price, it's ridiculous. And apparently they're hardly breaking even on those, while Tesla has a decent profit margin, what's wrong with them?
I'm also hoping China and Korea will upend this market because established EU/US manufacturers surely won't.
And practically, even on the German Autobahn, a top speed difference of 220 to the rare 250 km/h plus doesn't show. One traffic jam, or even just enougj traffic, and everybody ends up next to each other anyways.
Power is nice, because cars simply a nicer to drive. Plus you can pull better, which is also important. Going back in time so, 150-180 bhp was considered top knotch performance, the Audi A3 gained a lot of his reputation in the early 2000s due to two models, just below the S3, having that power output.
I din't know, all the engine size, top speed, power and acceleration discussions feel like me playing top trump (the card game for children were you compare numbers for e.g. cars), and less than an adult objevtively evaluating cars. Not that car evaluations and buying decissions need to be objevtive so, mine aren't. But up talking one model / brand by down talking others, based on purely subjective criteria, is childish. It does allow for great marketing campaigns so.
I do live in Germany too and routinely drive above 140 where allowed on the autobahn - it's a pleasure. So yes it does actually impact me, in a very real way.
Additionally:
- Top speed of 220+ means you accelerate from 130 to 160 easily, so you can safely pass the slowpoke ahead while not becoming an obstacle to faster traffic. A top speed of 160 means it'll take you a whole lot longer.
- A car with a top speed of 150 is at its limit at 150. Brakes are sized for that, wheels are chosen with that in mind, you better be going in a straight line, it's gonna be uncomfortably noisy, etc. You have very little margin for anything. One designed to reach 220 or 250 is basically in the middle of its comfort zone at 150, with ample safety margins on every metric and a more comfortable ride.
--Edit: I'd like to add a reference to the lower tier cars to my reply. I quoted the Zoe because my partner has it, so I'm quite familiar using it and it's really really fun in the city, it's perfect. I'm lamenting the big gap between Zoe and Tesla with nothing worth buying in between and the fact that I'm being asked 15-25k EUR extra compared to the Zoe, with hardly more car, which is an awful bargain as you reach the Tesla price with half assed specs. I may not care so much about speed and power (I do, that's another story) but I do care to get something worth my money, and all these other cars aren't.
Porsche can afford to give their customers Dacia levels of digitalization because they're premium sports cars that sell anyway, but the Asians are coming after the other German brands and will steamroll them if they don't start getting their act together.
Top speed has nothing to do with acceleration, a car can be limited at, say, 180 and still accelerate and be speced for 250. Heck, all German premium brands are, for the most part, limited at 250. Theoretically they can all go faster. Sure, there is a floor, but in practical terms it is much less relevant than people think. Also, it only matters in Germamy on select roads, everywhere else speed limits are much, much lower than car top speeds anyway.
And breaksbare sized fornmore than speed, they are sized relative to engine power and car weight. Speed is simply a function engine power, transmission and weight.
While loving to go fast, going fast in a staight line on a road made to do so is the opposite of dangerous or risky. Saying that, I am in total favor of a speed limit, 130 propably won't work in Germany, so. In general, we need one. And we have them any way most of the time, the percentage of unlimited km of roads is way smaller than people think. Once we have them, maybe we can have more realistic discussion about cars and mobility, at the moment everybody drols over their 300+ bhp "race cars". And brands sell on that image. That doesn't help switching to EVs, nor does it help cutting emissions.
are all everywhere for Tesla, like they are for Apple. I've seen entire sites dissect the Apple Watch or Apple mobile cameras, or Teslas.
Their competitors are very comparable yet you have to hand it to Tesla, their behind the scenes PR game is through the roof.
Still digitalisation so, sure. And still linked to EVs, traditional car journalism still caters to a crowd of ICE fanatics, but overall much more a thing of marketing than engineering. For Tesla, the risk still is Musk. But they seem to be doing a good job of distancing themselves enough from his recent antics to not be hurt by them, while staying close enough to benefit from his personal brand.
Yea, I can't help to notice that my 13 year old, who on the whole knows and cares nothing about cars, thinks that Teslas are the coolest cars ever, has already decided that their first car will be a Tesla and wants our next car to be a Tesla. Brands like Merceds, BMW, Porsche etc. mean very little to them.
So pardon me if I lend more credence to the notion that tech companies outstrip car companies when it comes to technology.
If I need to get an eye-surgery and the equipment runs on Android, I'd rather go for the one running on Android 4 for 10 years already, than the one running on Android 13 for 6 months now...