"At one point, a GM accountant went over to Sweden to see why Saab was costing them so much money. And he got into the new 9-3, turned on the satnav, and thought "Wait a minute. That's not one of our systems." And he was right; it wasn't. Saab had developed -- at vast expense -- their own system because they thought GM's wasn't good enough."
Driving a modern GM vehicle and being aware of these things is infuriating. They are really quite awful- aesthetically, sonically, performance wise, etc.
What?! The 9-2x Aero was dope!
I want to root for GM, I really do, but I swear they’ve never seemed to learn a lesson at any point in the last 100 years. I never owned a post-GM Saab, but I can’t imagine the Swedes were wrong in their assessment.
On its first tank of gas, our old GMC failed to start after being parked for 10 hours because the computer left the ABS system on overnight. It also had crazy software failure modes where the dashboard would go nuts and the onstar system would start making strange sounds.
Arguably, the software was one of the better subsystems of that truck. Never buying GM again. Our old GMC was the best truck we've ever owned. (Much better than our new Ram 1500, which can hold less weight than our old Volvo 240 station wagon).
Hopefully the F-150 electrics aren't hilariously bad.
This is going to go badly for them. A lot of people (all iOS users) will not even look at a GM. The used market for them will suffer as well. But, hey, if you need a really cheap used car in 5 or so years, and you don't care about Carplay, GM has you covered!
Companies can’t identify high performing small teams, because the managers that run ocean liners and tankers can’t understand how to run a small ship — and the incentives are generally reversed or at least radically different.
You can be assured it was a bean counter not an engineer or product person for sure — said with love.
When GM developed the Epsilon platform for small/midsized cars, they knew Saab was onboard to use it for the 2nd-gen 9-3. Saab also always had a 900/9-3 convertible, so it was assumed that other GM divisions could borrow from Saab's work for their own sporty/convertible Epsilon-platform models.
Nope.
When the GM North America guys saw the BOM for the 9-3, there were enough changes from the shared Epsilon components list that there was no economy to be gained by sharing the parts with the Pontiac G6 convertible. Saab made lots of expensive changes to the structure, supposedly. But...people seem real happy with their 9-3 convertibles; happier than the few I've met who've experienced the G6.
I think Bob Lutz, in one of his books, talks about how Saab insisted on doing lots of things themselves or going with a different vendor than GM NA or GM EU. Like the previously-mentioned satnav, HVAC components, power window regulators.. things where some other part of GM would have a cheaper part that was better tested and likely more reliable, and that the customer would never see. Of course, GM should have let Saab continue doing its own interior trim, including its fantastic seats. And they did make Saab their center of engine control electronics and turbo powertrain development, for a time.
Many car enthusiasts I knew at the time took the show for gospel
Given the demographics of the Saab customer base, I think it could have been an interesting and canny move if GM had launched the Volt as a Saab. I think they expected it to become a super mainstream vehicle, and so they were never going to relegate it to a niche brand, but in retrospect it might have been an optimal move - maybe it could have saved Saab and not been a disappointment for Chevrolet. All they would have had to do was stick the start button between the front seats and turn it over to the designers in Sweden to give the interior and exterior a quick once-over gloss.
One of my kids is going to start driving next year. I’m shopping used Saabs and trying to convince my wife to let me get one for the kiddo. No luck so far.
Currently driving a rental car and finding these new vehicles a disaster for the human race. You can't even see out the front and you have more degree of blind spots than visibility.
I can't wait to get back to my home airport and fire up my trusty steed, my rock steady my 88 900T
I'm not scandinavian but kinda wish Sweden had been protectionist towards saab (& finland to do the same with nokia). That kind of protectionism shouldn't be as looked down on as it is especially when it's prevented so selectively and the lack of it has lead to a less broad, less competitive market in many areas.
There's still Koenigsegg, volvo/polestar & related, scania, etc but other than koenigsegg those are all foreign owned now.
The latter two are doing a reasonably good job today under new ownership. A pitty Saab didn't survive so, those were pretty cars.
Sniff. Just had an '86 Saab 900 SPG flatnose project car hauled out of my shop after letting it rot in there untouched for 6 years because I just have too much else going on.
Those cars were special and loved for their esoteric nature and because they were on the forefront of car engineering choices that later became common. Turbo, front wheel drive, double wishbone suspension, etc.
But mostly because they were pretty no-compromise on driving. Longitudinally mounted (backwards!) engine for better balance and no torque steer. Dashboard controls at driver line of sight, no looking down and futzing. Key between the seats to prevent hypothetical stabbing injuries from the key during collisions. Lovely rounded glass for better visibility and fewer blind spots. Even extends to maintenance: Dash hood opens forward instead of up (hard to describe) so home mechanics can get more ergonomic access. "Backwards" mounted engine made it easier to get in and replace belts, etc.
The "odd" body shape wasn't just a design choice, it was all in pursuit of ergonomics for a superior and safe driving experience. Like the complete opposite of a Tesla (or many other modern cars) with their ridiculous glowing distraction machines plopped in the middle of the car.
The GM-built Saabs that followed didn't really keep a lot of the advantages that the 900 had, though they kept some of the quirks.
And honestly these NEVS concepts, they've been buzzing around for years without actually shipping anything. And I'm not sure they're "spiritually" akin to what the 900 represented.
Please someone make me an EV with longitudinally mounted motor, distraction free dash, excellent visibility & minimal blind spots, compact or subcompact or coupe body style...
But... a coupe like the 900 with an emphasis on driver ergonomics would flop on the North American market today. Not big enough to thoroughly flatten cyclists and pedestrians and terrify the drivers next to you.
Though I'd buy one.
Also working on inductive charging is nothing new. Just from the release, it is unknown how god that worked. I new research that is more than 10 years old on inductive charging for cars like in parking spots or at a traffic light. The problem of inductive charging still today is, if you are not perfectly aligned you will waste a lot of energy. That is why the charging in the smart phone are all have magnets. That's to guarantee a perfect position. Should car snap in place, when you are in your parking spot?
So while this release is interesting, it should not be to exaggerated.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsprung_mass [1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/schaeffler-and-ford...
Verge cycle has a wheel mounted engine and from what I can tell it's not exactly "slow":
https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/us/
?
Also one of the reasons, as I discovered, why the 900 is sadly not a good candidate for EV conversion. The transaxle would just break to pieces if you put the torque of an electric motor on there. Especially considering for a car like that you'd want something sporty.
Every EV car company out there is chasing the SUV market
edit: I got my odds backwards.
I mean "certain to happen"
My NG was the best car I've ever owned, and I sorely miss its uniqueness on the road today.
Saab the name and the crest is owned by the airplane company, and they will never again license it out to another automaker.
NEVS, a Chinese backed company that acquired the assets of Saab-the-car-company, has ceased operations and is basically in liquidation for the benefit of its creditors. I presume it doesn’t own much other than an outdated factory and 10-year-old IP. There are no more employees other than administrators attending to the disposal of any remaining assets.
The future does not seem bright at all for any sort of Saab car resurgence :(
Saab JAS 39 Gripen being the latest generation aircraft.
My favorite bit of Saab trivia is that in the 60s, Norway offered Sweden half of its mineral interests in the North Sea in exchange for 40% of Saab. Sweden declined.
Absolutely. I drive a Polestar now, and my sense from the Polestar community is that many of us are frustrated Saab lovers. A new Saab EV is definitely something I'd be interested in! (Not that Polestar owners would make an especially huge market on our own...Just like Saab!)
may i ask how you like it?
Both cars were totaled. The avalanche driver and passenger were taken in away in stretchers. I and another passenger were fine, one passenger had a laceration from broken glass and one had their arm jammed.
The Saab was really amazingly designed for safety and everyone was shocked that I wasn’t paste as the center beam on the side was pushed in about two feet.
In that video, I cracked up at “a designer with… another Swedish car company.”
During Covid I got an idea to get a Saab project car and a 2001 93 cost $11k. So I guess there are a few crazy Saab lovers out there.
I hope they make a comeback. I still don’t know quite what it was about them that made me like them. It wasn’t just their oddness of being the Platypus of cars.
First year of the 9-5, which could be seen as a successor, was 1997. It was not a "rebadged" GM but there might be GM-sourced components.
Being required to optimize for another real-world constraint (i.e., cost in this case) is more work, but ultimately just another task for an engineer. Being required to not engineer greatest-practical-stuff, but just slap the name on some junk is not the same thing, but marketing people can't see that, even though customers can.
I'm concerned about the Chinese ownership, but that seems murky now, since NEVS bought a stake or strategic partnership, then got bought 51% by Chinese real estate conglomerate Evergrande, which is deeply in debt, and NEVS is now in "permanent hibernation mode", essentially liquidating. I wonder if there's opportunity to get it back in control of democratic nations. Anyone have deeper information?
Not sure why Sweden decided to make them go independent, but if GM hadn’t bought them, they would have died sooner
But yes, using the Scandinavian mile for a car's odometer would be strange even by Swedish standards.
For some, the 270 mi range is probably a bit of a turnoff. But if you live in Europe, or one of the parts of the U.S. where everything is close together, there's no issue at all. I would probably not buy one if I lived in Wyoming, but I doubt that's your situation.
The second-gen 9-3 was GM Epsilon-something-based and had GM drivetrain.
Hey the Ram 1500 is twice as heavy as the Volvo 240. Poor thing is too busy carrying itself to deal with your cargo.
Fun fact: 1 in 22 RAM 2500 drivers has had a DUI. Source: https://insurify.com/insights/car-models-with-the-most-duis/
Assuming you’ll even be able to do that…
Could be a nice money-making opportunity.
Technically, you could, but you'd have to put back the old system on lease end.
How the fuck did anyone think that putting parabolic mirrors facing the driver was a good idea? Shit like this should be illegal and worthy of a recall.
[1] https://prod.pictures.autoscout24.net/listing-images/3fbd33c...
I’m taller than average. With the steering wheel at maximum height, the instrument cluster is blocked by the wheel.
An interesting part of this is that if the bottom 75% of the windscreen was painted out, it wouldn’t change the visibility I have.
Cars seem to be designed for a very short average human.
As a consumer it is hard to know which EVs are designed and engineered in house (with outsourced manufacturing) versus a brand that has been repurposed (MG for example)
On the other hand, they are indeed manufactured in China. And Polestar is a joint venture between Volvo and Geely (Zhejiang Geely Holding Group), a Chinese company. Volvo Cars itself is also also owned by Geely. So China is not just the country of manufacture, if that's something you're concerned about.
[1] https://www.carscoops.com/2023/03/saabs-ghost-comes-back-to-...
[2] https://www.vibilagare.se/nyheter/flera-foretag-intresserade...
No, the average person barely cares for quality, vs cost. The average person will buy the cheapest thing possible, even if it means it lasts a year instead of 10, at a 20% discount.
You can see it in all the "made in china" stuff, mostly sold as in-house brands for retailers. Whether Europe, Canada, the US, people but these retailer brands, this junk, and seem, bizarrely, happy.
But then the average person thinks they can profit at the casino, and cannot think beyond today.
Not on the car market, or there wouldn't be such a proliferation of SUVs and pickups which are a useless waste for 90%+ of their users, and there would be few luxury/mid-tier brands - everyone would be driving around in the smallest Dacias and Skodas.
Cars are a status symbol, and many people would prefer to pay more for the same car with a different badge indicating a higher status - case in point, the VW Group has a big range of brands, with cars being pretty much identical outside of small changes in visual design (interior and exterior), and VW (mid-tier) and Audi(higher-tier) outsell the "cheap" Skoda and SEAT - https://www.statista.com/statistics/275868/sales-figures-for....
[0] = https://webshop.saabparts.com/
Edit: Missed a very important not in the last sentence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM2900_platform
GM already had 50% controlling share of Saab way back in 1989 and by 2010 they were wholely owned by GM.
I had a 1998 Saab 93 (2L petrol LPT) and was initially disappointed to find out it used the same platform as the Vauxhall/Opel Vectra. That said it still had those distinct Saab design touches and was pretty damned good in the snow and ice.
Even the 900NG which the 9-3 derives from was a GM2900 platform car.
For some strange reason, not everyone in the world is an American or thinks like one :-)
But good industries may be more long term beneficial and maybe creates a more healthy and sustainable society compared to oil money doping.
Pretty sure that deal included Volvo as well, which was always bigger, particularly also including the trucks division.
Not sure how serious it was though, and maybe it is only a fairy tale.
You’re right though that I should have caveated that trivia - I’m not certain about the specifics or the essential truth of it. Still an interesting counterfactual to consider.
And the story of how their sovereign fund came to be is quite an extraordinary one.
For those interested: https://www.ft.com/content/99680a04-92a0-11de-b63b-00144feab...
Edit: and an enticing excerpt
> But al-Kasim’s most immediate problem on arriving in Oslo that morning was how to fill the day […] “So I decided to go to the Ministry of Industry and ask them if they knew of any oil companies coming to Norway.”
> He deposited his luggage and walked to the ministry, where he was received by a baffled official who told him to come back that afternoon. When he returned, expecting only an address list, several men were waiting for him. “They were keen to know what had I been doing, what kind of education I had, whom I worked for. […]” His request for a list of possible employers had turned into an impromptu job interview. […] At the time of his surprise call, Norway’s oil administration numbered just three officials, all in their thirties and all learning essential parts of the job as they went along.
What I meant was not that Norway has spent their oil money irresponsibly.
Just that they are not (quite) an industry nation.
It is a bit like comparing a person that wins the lottery at 18, although spending it wisely.
Compared someone working their way through life.
Who has a healthier life in the long run?
(I am a swede an my whole post has a not very subtle smell of jealousy, just like person 2 in my example probably has)
Never heard of that. Feels like an obfuscated version of the Volvo-Norway deal that Volvo's CEO PG Gyllenhammar attempted. Are you sure you are not mixing things up?
SAAB - Svenska Aeroplan AB (Swedish Airplane Limited Company)
If you call SAAB SAAB, you might as well call NEVS NEVS :)
