Subreddit Migration Directory(redditmigration.com) |
Subreddit Migration Directory(redditmigration.com) |
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Technology and Programming
c/technology – General technology news and links
c/rust – Links and discussions relevant for users of the Rust programming language
c/coolgithubprojects – Links to projects on GitHub, Gitlab, sr.ht, Codeberg, or other git hosts. If you found a project on any git hosting site, that seems cool or otherwise useful then it belongs here, as long as it is open source
c/programming – General links and discussions about the art and craft of programming
c/space – Exploration of space
c/machine_learning – AI & ML
c/bitcoin – For news and discussions about Bitcoin technology. Price discussions are off–topic. No posting about ICO sales, NFT sales or other kinds of token or coin sales.
c/ethereum – For news and discussions about Ethereum technology. Price discussions are off–topic. No posting about ICO sales, NFT sales or other kinds of token or coin sales.
c/linux – News and discussions relating to the Linux kernel as well as about Linux distributions like Ubuntu, Arch Linux, Debian, Gentoo, etc
c/freebsd – News and discussions relating to the FreeBSD Operating System
c/retro_computing – Sinclair ZX Spectrum, BBC Micro, Commodore 64, Amiga 1000, etc, etc
c/demoscene – All about the demoscene, an international computer art subculture focused on producing demos: self-contained, sometimes extremely small, computer programs that produce audiovisual presentations. The purpose of a demo is to show off programming, visual art, and musical skills.
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Creativity and Entertainment
c/music – Talk about bands, artists, albums and songs
c/videos – Cartoons, entertaining videos, etc.
c/music_production – For singers, songwriters, producers and other people who make music
c/aiart – For pictures that you’ve made using OpenAI DALL-E, Midjourney, etc, as well as for news and discussions about such tools
c/drawing – Resources and discussions about drawing. You are welcome to show off drawings you’ve made. Note that for pictures where AI has been used a separate community c/aiart exists.
c/design
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Sports and Lifestyle
c/skateboarding
c/travel – share experiences and pictures from your travels, ask questions about places you want to visit
c/surfing
c/sailing
c/climbing
c/skiing
c/snowboarding
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Society, Life and Law
c/ipr – Intellectual Property Rights
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Language specific communities
c/spanish – English discussions and links about the Spanish language, as well as Spanish learning resources. Posts and comments written in Spanish are welcome as well.
c/esperanto – English discussions and links about the Esperanto constructed language, as well as Esperanto learning resources. Posts and comments written in Esperanto are welcome as well.
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Country specific communities
c/mexico – English and Spanish discussions and links relating to visiting or staying in Mexico
c/spain – English and Spanish discussions and links relating to visiting or staying in Spain
c/norway – English and Norwegian discussions and links relating to visiting or staying in Norway
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General
c/pictures – Share photos and pictures you’ve made. Note that for pictures where AI has been used a separate community c/aiart exists.
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Come have look and make an account.
The irony.
> https://beehaw.org/post/567170
> these two instances’ open registration policy, which is extremely problematic for us given how federation works and how trivial it makes trolling, harassment, and other undesirable behavior;
> unfortunate reality we’ve also found is we just don’t have the tools or the time here to parse out all the good from all the bad. all we have is a nuke and some pretty rudimentary mod powers that don’t scale well. we have a list of improvements we’d like to see both on the moderation side of Lemmy and federation if at all possible–but we’re unanimous in the belief that we can’t wait on what we want to be developed here.
At least before Elon bought Twitter I know the most active (depending on how you count metrics) site was poa.st, and this was on a mastodon.social blacklist, which was one of the other major sites, and every site had their own list. I know people would sometimes have 4 or 5 accounts so that they could talk to everyone they wanted or as insurance in case the current admin got bored and closed the site.
I of course support the idea of a federated reddit, but there are a lot of problems that exist in the community
This is why the Fediverse cannot work. More precisely, it can work, but only in the same way as the thing it tries to replace.
It's always the same story: The largest communities impose their rules on everyone else, under threat of exclusion from those communities. This creates power structures that are almost indistinguishable from the ones found on commercial networks. In one case, it's business interests that drive culture, in the other, it's the egos and personal ideologies of the most powerful community members.
I honestly don't know which one is worse.
I imagine some will, but hopefully that won't be the norm. Beehaw isn't doing it.
There's probably been similar stuff on twitter though - blacklists where you get added for following someone else on the blacklist
There are other programming communities on other servers that will likely become the actual replacement for r/programming.
EDIT: The "What is Beehaw?" post in their sidebar[0] is a really enlightening introduction to the community, and also quite interesting for developing an understanding of the fediverse as a whole. This isn't going to be a drop-in replacement for Reddit because the admins will all have very different visions of the kinds of communities they want to create. I didn't end up deciding to join Beehaw, but reading their post made me very hopeful for the future of the fediverse as a whole.
We're back to dodging Eris, are we?
Moderation in the fediverse (inc. Mastodon & Lemmy) means defederating from "problematic" instances, where problematic is defined in the rules of the server doing the federating server (which appears to be documented at https://beehaw.org/instances)
This means moderation happens at a community & instance level rather than global moderation.
Please correct me if I'm missing something - I'm quite new to Mastodon & the fediverse like I'm sure many are!
It's actually problematic when instances get too large to fail (like the two biggest mastodon ones), because when their mods cannot cope anymore, you can't realistically ban the whole insurance - too many users would be affected.
But that's still better than a single global namespace where you have to deal with single accounts every time.
For instance, the free-speech instances weren't going to be interested in dealing with the typical Twitter refugee anyway, and both would be content in their own corner.
But with federated forums this changes, as now you're expecting users from other instances to form a community with your users, so you're heavily incentivised to only work with instances who place the same emphasis on the rules, and unless each "clique" is fine with duplicating all the common forum topics for their own users, the result is that a very small group of people gets to take everyone's content hostage to impose their own will on the community.
So we're back to the same Reddit issue of a few people controlling the majority of the content.
Former Reddit mods are going to love this feature.
Now when they are power-tripping or they don't agree with another instances users views on a topic, instead of just banning the users, they can ban entire instances/communities from participating in one fell swoop.
However, if there's demand open source contributors will sort out the tooling soon enough, while the closed-source official Reddit app is unlikely to improve anything soon.
How do you measure success? Number of users? Number of posts and comments?
It is possible to have a small community with few people and less activity, that maintains a higher quality of content than a bigger community with more people.
The main danger of being small might be the threat of becoming an echo chamber because you are not exposed to as much variety in ideas. But even big communities sometimes do a “pretty good job at” (i.e. succumb to) becoming an echo chamber.
My biggest issue about this is that I'm too lazy to learn how it works. I don't understand what "federation" and "defederating" mean in this context. For Reddit I have terms like:
subreddit - a board, like in a forum
mod - a mod, just like in a forum again
karma - useless internet point
and that's about all I need to know. I just don't have the incentive to learn what federation, defederating, instances, etc are, but they seem to somehow can affect what content I can see or whether I'll get banned. This demotivates me even further.
Of course if it becomes a mainstream platform or all my friends are using it then I'll learn these concepts. But not before that.
I highly recommend reading Beehaw's history that they link from their sidebar. It helped me better understand the value proposition of the fediverse, and goes a long way towards explaining their perspective on the necessity of defederating the large instances:
One doesn’t come across such intense blindness of self like that very often. Steer clear.
I'm reading another instance of "eternal september" in this post.
This is a huge advantage of a large number of smaller servers, defederation as a policy decision by your instance administrator can be solved by moving to a new one without nearly as much trouble if you disagree with it.
The huge disadvantage (or advantage as it evolves) is that technology@lemmy.bobstown and technology@kbin.char (made up instances) have different membership and moderation.
It will be interesting to see how that goes, I expect niche topics to end up accumulating on one or two servers to gain enough membership while huge topics end up with more serious siloing by instance.
Yeah, forgot to mention that not exactly unimportant part, I’m on neither myself and can use them just fine -.- edited it in.
Regarding duplicate communities, I think one of the most important features needed will be something like multi-subs as reddit had it. Right now, I can’t just read all my technology subs without opening them one by one. This will only get worse if more servers defederate from each other.
The only advantage(?) Reddit had over these was a user could have feed from all these communities which is still possible with RSS
Edit: I want to know where r/selfhosted ended up, anyone knows?
The poor showing of migrated communities - both low volume of migrations, and poor performance of the servers running them, isn’t helping the cause.
Like, I look at that list and the broken-overloaded lemmys running them and I can’t help but think this is why Reddit is successful and will continue to be successful. Because very, very few will put up with such a poor experience the alternatives offer.
Of course, if there’s some serious effort put in asap into the usability, stability and overall experience of the decentralised communities approach, then Reddit may falter. I’m not optimistic.
Still, users now expect an active community and a fast and reliable website right now, not in 10 years.
Lemmy/Kbin/whatever is not going to _replace_ Reddit today, and I don't think they ever meant to replace it all at once... but maybe they can keep growing and eventually get there.
Please tell me this is a joke.
Good for them, but this is supposed to be the Reddit replacement? A forum that was, until recently, just running on some guy’s computer? I know there are other instances but are there any serious ones?
Can't wait for phpBB and YaBB style re-replacements of Reddit.
Please let us know when we can access our contributions again.
They might not all be part of the same organisation, but there will be plenty of people in the ecosystem operating at a loss. If they're happy with that arrangement, great! But I want to use Reddit.
So many weebs with minor proficiency attacking and berating posters.
Why does this not surprise me? The Japan-expat-oriented subs on reddit are frequently terrible, especially /r/japanlife, which has the worst mods I've ever seen in a sub.
This site can’t provide a secure connection
redditmigration.com uses an unsupported protocol.
ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH
curl -v https://redditmigration.com/ --resolve redditmigration.com:443:44.227.76.166
* Added redditmigration.com:443:44.227.76.166 to DNS cache
* Hostname redditmigration.com was found in DNS cache
* Trying 44.227.76.166...
* TCP_NODELAY set
* Connected to redditmigration.com (44.227.76.166) port 443 (#0)
* ALPN, offering h2
* ALPN, offering http/1.1
* Cipher selection: ALL:!EXPORT:!EXPORT40:!EXPORT56:!aNULL:!LOW:!RC4:@STRENGTH
* successfully set certificate verify locations:
* CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt
CApath: /etc/ssl/certs
* TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS header, Certificate Status (22):
* TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS handshake, Client hello (1):
* TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS header, Unknown (21):
* TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS alert, Server hello (2):
* error:14077410:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:sslv3 alert handshake failure
* Curl_http_done: called premature == 1
* stopped the pause stream!
* Closing connection 0
curl: (35) error:14077410:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:sslv3 alert handshake failureThe defederation wars have already begun [0][1]
This is going to greatly upset fans of both Star Wars and Star Trek, heh!
I'm not interested in Lemmy or Mastodon or any of this stuff.
Large subreddits simply cannot work without moderation. When that happens, Reddit is forced to close them.
So either Reddit replaces all mods with AI in the short term, or brings back the mods, or just ceases to exist.
Or like Twitter, and every other large social media network. So much straight up criminal stuff flies under the radar simply because it's impossible for a handful of people to police that many people.
WebFinger technially uses a `acct:` URI protocol scheme, but this wouldn't work here. Lemmy writes community refs with a `!` prefix, which is somewhat unusual.
Centralization is a network of peers all connected to one hub, reliant on the hub to provide spokes to other peers at large.
The "fediverse" as far as I can tell is a collection of many separate networks that refuse to speak with other networks (for ideological reasons at that, rather than technical), each network acting as a hub and providing spokes to their peers.
It's centralization ("Lemmy", et al.) within a centralization ("fediverse") within a decentralization (internet).
For those that don’t know:
> Initially, most IRC servers formed a single IRC network, to which new servers could join without restriction, but this was soon abused by people who set up servers to sabotage other users, channels, or servers. Restriction grew and, in August 1990, eris.Berkeley.EDU was the last server indiscriminately allowing other servers to join it, Eris being the Greek goddess of strife and discord.
> A group of operators, with the support of Jarkko Oikarinen, introduced a new "Q-line" into their server configurations, to "quarantine" themselves away from eris by disconnecting from any subset of the IRC network as soon as they saw eris there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFnet
This is how the Eris-Free network, or EFnet as it is known, was formed.
Further:
> EFnet […] is a major Internet Relay Chat (IRC) network, with more than 35,000 users. It is the modern-day descendant of the original IRC network.
Well, they can have their server to themselves, I'm not going to subscribe to another server only to see it also blocked. They have proven to be the unreliable ones.
I hope the rest of the network retaliates and defederate beehaw. That's the right thing to do. If they want to be alone, grant their wishes and make them alone.
Same as any other service, if you're willing to follow the rules of the stricter instance you can interact with it. If your instance won't abide by the stricter rules, so it goes.
I will be curious to see how it goes indeed. I hope the trend is a system of smaller instances with defederation fairly rare and with a tool that lets you at least manually interleave posts in magazines on different instances that you think should be in a single group. But this whole thing is not very old and I imagine in a year it will be very different.
I can't really think of any way to merge comment threads if multiple instances somehow shared a magazine despite having different mods. Can you imagine if half the comments in a thread vanished because a server shut down? I'm not sure that's even conceptually doable.
Not true merging, just a view to have multiple communities in one place. Maybe even with some extra interaction, like automatic crossposting & links to crossposted threads, but that’s future talk and nothing I put thought in. For now, I’d be happy with just being able to create multi’s exactly like on reddit.
I don’t see why these two are intertwined. You can believe in a certain idea while at the same time be open that it can be flawed or outright wrong. The point of an ideology is that something could be true. Not that something is.
But maybe this is the agnostic bias in me talking.
Unfortunately, unlike when we had Reddit already growing when the Digg exodus happened, there doesn't seem to be any pre-grown option this time around.
It's important to remember that that $2.50 Reddit is charging isn't their cost. They're a business and they're baking in a health profit margin on that. The actual cost to them is a fraction of that, though of course they will never disclose the actual amount.
You might recall that back in 2000 we didn't have Reddit. It was lots of little forums hosted on machines in basements and with relatively cheap online hosts. Lemmy and Mastodon allows us to do that again, but this time, they're all connected together. This distributes costs across hundreds of thousands of people, instead of trying to make one giant platform the only choice.
I should remind you that Reddit isn’t asking for $20 million annually from Apollo to merely cover their costs. They have a very healthy profit margin baked into that fee. So even if we were to pay for a competitor, it would cost a lot less than that. This, combined with the decentralised nature of Lemmy, means these costs can be nicely distributed over tens of thousands of people, using small donations here and there to keep the lights on. This isn’t the insurmountable problem you seem to believe it to be.
At least with Reddit, there's an entity working towards building a sustainable solution to keep it running. That is, until some moderators decided to close the communities and hide our contributions.
Anyway, my point is: vote with your feet and leave Reddit if you want. But don't vandalise the site on your way out, ruining it for everyone else.
1. Reddit has banned and deleted countless users, comments, and subreddits over the years. All of that data is gone forever. The decisions were arbitrary and opaque. The subreddit owners and users weren't even given notice so they could back up the subreddit data and migrate elsewhere.
2. Reddit has and will increasingly demand users access the remaining data using increasingly user hostile channels. The mobile site Reddit experience is all but ruined. They're currently trialing blocking it entirely. The standard desktop website is atrocious. They track everything, and aggressively monetise, meaning ads everywhere. If the data on the site is gated behind intrusive tracking practises, a hostile UX, a plethora of ads, and perhaps in the future even a subscription, do we really have access to that data?
3. Reddit has an incentive to promote advertiser friendly content, and hide other content. This means the main feed is full of content I don't care about. Their search is one of the worst in the industry, and it has been blocking undesirable content for years. The most effective way to find content on Reddit is Google, but Reddit is working hard to break that. About a year or so ago Google could no longer accurately record the submission date, meaning their date searching tools were rendered useless. Shortly after that, Google stopped caching Reddit content. We should expect that Reddit has been working hard to ensure no one can find the "bad" content, and only ever lands on the "good" content. If you can't ever find the relevant data, do we really have access to it?
I just don't see how you could argue that our data is safer with an evil corporation than an army of dedicated users. You claim that mods and/or users are vandalising the site on the way out. We're really just deleting the content we uploaded.
There's no avoiding this in any group.
Lemmy and general Fediverse centers the workflow of spinning up your own community even against the will of the entire rest of the ecosystem. This is in complete opposition to Twitter, Reddit etc.
I don't want 10 user accounts in 10 places to access the stuff I want to access.
I don't want Nazi shit on my reddit replacement. I'm assuming a lot of people here wouldn't want theirs to be full of commie shit. Then there's the religious nuts etc etc.
Think of it less as censorship and more as community self-segregation. I wouldn't go to a Nazi bar or Sunday school in real life, why would I want to be in the online equivalent?
The way the Fediverse works, as it is explained to newcomers, is that you can follow any topic on any server regardless of which server you are one. The expectation is that the graph is complete. When the graph is not complete, suddenly you can't follow your favorite topic because some users talking about a different topic did something that the admin on the other server isn't happy with. The whole server gets disconnected. Whichever server you choose to join, you always have the risk of getting defederated for things you have nothing to do with. Yes, you can change to a different server, but changing servers is not nearly as frictionless as it's sometimes made out to be.
In Usenet, to name another decentralized service, this is completely different. Servers can decide to carry or not carry a newsgroup, but they don't cut off a complete server for what happens in one of the newsgroups. (That's not to say that Usenet doesn't have problems of its own.)
Back in the dark ages when I was running a Usenet site, we would definitely drop servers if they were more hassle (spamming, providing blocked material, etc.) than we wanted to deal with.
Why should a "federated Reddit replacement" have to be any different? If you subscribe to subs X and Y and Z, and none of that stuff is in those subs, does it matter to you if the instance (or other instances it federates with) contains other subs–which you never visit–that do have it?
Email providers very explicitly do care. You can be banned from gmail for especially egregious things for example. If an email account was serving me nazi propaganda I would inform the platform, and if it was coming from a specific email provider they would likely be blacklisted. Keep in mind this already happens when it comes to spam; the difference is that nazis are not blasting random emails with nazi stuff so it becomes much harder to track.
> Do you care if your web host happens to host their websites?
Generally speaking, yes. We went over this before with Cloudflare and sites that were full of people harassing and harming other users. Responsibility eventually falls on someone and that someone was the host provider.
> Why should a "federated Reddit replacement" have to be any different? If you subscribe to subs X and Y and Z, and none of that stuff is in those subs, does it matter to you if the instance (or other instances it federates with) contains other subs–which you never visit–that do have it?
Because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how federated instances and content works, which is why I recommend you actually interact with those services before trying to make arguments. A user isn't subscribing to sub XYZ, they're a user of an instance which has subs XYZ and which federates to instance ABC. This is important because the instance is serving you that info, so if I like XY but hate AB, the instance can serve me content, users etc which are a part of AB. In fact, this is why Reddit does exactly what you seem to think they don't do. Many subreddits have bots, automod etc that will ban people that are from certain subreddits due to the content of their posts or how likely they are to troll. Defederation is a more explicit form of that.
A closer analogy here is that your city councilman doesn't want to go to a Nazi bar or Sunday school in real life, and so he orders all the roads to the churches and the bars demolished, and also the roads to all the houses of the people who go to the churches or Nazi bars.
"After all," he says, "they can still build their own network of roads if they want. We're just not going to allow anyone in our community to use our network of roads to get there."
If you don't kick Nazis out of your bar, they will infiltrate it, run everyone who isn't a Nazi out and then you're running a Nazi bar yourself.
People keep on comparing Mastodon to email.
But, have you ever tried to send someone an email and had the email rejected with an error from your email provider saying "You can't talk to that domain because it insufficiently polices hate speech" or even "You can't talk to that domain because it lets its users talk to domains that insufficiently police hate speech"? Yet my impression of Mastodon is it is just like that.
Which makes Mastodon in practice a very different type of federation from email.
At least on Mastodon you get the chance to talk to someone and try to solve the conflict.
The terms of service of those big providers say that they can ban people for "hate speech", but in practice they rarely do that, and on the rather rare occasions they do, it is usually a particularly egregious case of it.
By contrast, the big Mastodon instances seem to be very keen on banning "hate speech" – and defining that term in a much broader way than most other platforms do. See https://joinmastodon.org/covenant point 1
That's how it is on Reddit too no? You visit and post a comment on subreddit A, somehow mods in subreddit B will find out and pre-emptively ban you.
On this Lemmy thing I guess the solution is to just maintain multiple accounts - each on a server connected to a particular cluster of servers.
Almost no one runs a personal instance. Most people have accounts on multi user instances. This is unlike reddit, where accounts are global and independent of subreddits. On reddit, mods from subreddit B can preemptively ban you after they learn that subreddit A doesn't like you. But they can't ban entire subreddit, say C, so that every user that's subscribing to C can no longer interact with anyone subscribed to B. This is the scenario that plagues Mastodon - not individual blocks, but defederating whole instances.
I've been avoiding Reddit recently, but when I used to use it – I never agreed with that kind of behaviour, and any subreddit which does it is one I don't want to be part of.
However, that said, that's community-level not instance-level, and so I'm not sure what that has to do with federation.
There have been so many attempts at it for the past 20 years or so, but people just don't want to accept that it cannot ever work. This is not the 90s where most people online were academics and you could get away with everyone building their own Killfile over time.
Indeed. And each "kingdom" has the exact same problem with power centralization that the Fediverse supposedly solves. And the more popular an instance becomes, the bigger this problem gets. And the more popular an instance becomes, the more people will join it. And boom, we're back to zero.
If you're banned from a popular instance you're not banned from the platform as a whole. Because there is no single authority dictating where you can and cannot post, unlike Reddit. It's similar to being specifically banned from a subreddit.
Reddit is a kingdom whose king delegates power to various fiefdoms, but ultimately still controls the land. You are at their whims, as evident by the fact that they're removing mods that disagree with their API policy. Federated instances are multiple kingdoms that share borders which they keep open for the sake of trade. But those borders can close depending on how their neighbors interact.
It's like I said, a return to forums or IRC style governing except the authority is the forum or channel itself, and they can link to other forums/channels as they want in a seamless fashion. In order for systems like these to work communities need a way to defederate and control who they connect to, because inevitably bad instances will rise whose sole purpose is spam, harassment etc.
The most popular instances are the platform. Yes, you can run your own instance, with only yourself as a user. Unless others choose to federate with you, that's the equivalent of calling your blog a social network. And if the biggest instances impose their own rules on others under threat of severing federation, the freedom to run your instance as you wish exists only in theory.
That wasn't what I was asking though – I was asking whether a user should care. Why should I care who else uses my email provider, if I never interact with them?
> You can be banned from gmail for especially egregious things for example.
Gmail will only ban you for "especially egregious things". The Mastodon Server Covenant clause 1 calls for banning people for things which Gmail would not consider "especially egregious". A big difference.
> Generally speaking, yes. We went over this before with Cloudflare
I don't consider who a CDN's other customers might be when deciding which CDN to use. I'm sure many CDNs provide services to websites advocating viewpoints which I view as foolish, even reprehensible–but I don't see what relevance that has to my own decision as to which CDN I should use for my own site.
> Many subreddits have bots, automod etc that will ban people that are from certain subreddits
I think that kind of behaviour is toxic, and I would never knowingly participate in any subreddit that did that. But, in any event, that's a community-level issue, not an instance-level one, and as such I'm not sure what it has to do with the topic of federation.
Instance == Community. The rest of your post I've already addressed and I'm not going to go over again. You calling out the Mastodon Server Covenant does not particularly make sense because it's not an authority, it's a listing of servers. Again you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how federation works given that you keep using incorrect comparisons.
A whole instance is not necessarily a single community.
People keep on defending Mastodon by comparing it to email – an email provider is not necessarily a community.
If we are talking about a federated Reddit-clone (Mastodon is more a federated Twitter-clone) – the communities are the subreddits (or whatever the clone chooses to call them) not the instances.
You're the one that keeps comparing it to email, so I recommend you stop. Simple as that. Ctrl-F this thread and every response that has to do with email starts with you. I've explicitly compared it to IRC and forums.
Your last point is incorrect. Beehaw is a reddit alternative. They defederated from other instances because other instances had free registeration, which was resulting in users from that instance trolling and doing low quality posts in their community (according to them). They can do this because the instance is the community.
In previous discussions here about Mastodon, people have been defending it by comparing it to email.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35579181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35583666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35582762