The Right to Sex: Feminism in the Twenty-First Century(ahalbert.com) |
The Right to Sex: Feminism in the Twenty-First Century(ahalbert.com) |
Not sure there's a choice. The allure of the taboo draws people in, even when they are not interested in the acts themselves.
We should instead tailor education to assume that boys and girls will find a way to access porn.
What the Hell is this? Of course they're "entitled" to their own bodies. What the Hell does she think, that she should be able to force them to have sex with her just because they're White and she's Black? She's a goddamned incel, treating others like props for her gratification.
Plus, since this apparently needs to be said, defending a rapist makes you a horrible person. Splitting hairs about what is and isn't rape is defending a rapist.
I read the whole article, but at this sentence I reached for Cmd+W, which was done via muscle memory as my eyes were rolled so far back into my head.
Also, yes, dating effectively means sex and trying to defend a rapist by splitting hairs makes you horrible.
The author didn’t mention bodies, but minds. The author wrotes the men said they would not even “date” a black woman
The men presumably are attracted to women, but said they would not date a woman of black skin
> One of them mentioned he wouldn’t date a black woman.
> Are they entitled to have this preference
Pressuring someone into sex is disgusting, and horrible, and it doesn't matter who's doing it or why.
Part of me thinks it’s maybe interesting to bring up to people who have a genuine openness and are unaware of such subjects. But then it feels like to even read a collection of said articles, you must be a bit in the know about these subjects already if not a complete nerd about them.
I’ve seen this type of “I’m just asking questions” talk in many places and it does feel disingenuous almost exclusively. It’s quite rare to see a completely balanced take where they have no idea what the correct solution is. It looks like in this collection, Amia does give their own opinions even though they say at times they don’t have any idea what is best. It rubs that it’s disingenuous.
The problem is that I’d like to send such things along to people I know to get them more informed about various subjects but when there’s a slant as evident here - I never want to. So annoying that everyone has to shove their opinion into everything even when they act like they’re not. Just own it.
Its a good article and a balanced discussion about feminism would be very nice to have here...
Saying people's preferences are "Problematic" is a way to pressure them into sex: "You're a horrible person if you don't have sex with me!"
Okay I'm half joking, but this crowd of people is simply incapable of having such discussions without the thread turning into a pile of garbage very quickly because of a no-no word in the title. (Not talking about the word sex, but feminism.)
I love having such discussions, but it's not happening here for my own sanity.
There's the usual torturing of definitions of word that pisses me off on HN (like when someone tried to convince people that flying is like running except you don't touch the ground) but in this thread there are weird accusations of call to rape based on the worst interpretation possible of an excerpt of the article.
It kinda put into perspective (and in a negative light) all the other posts that deals with philosophy or social issues.
I'm tired of everything being flagged on HN that has even a 1% chance of painting feminism or something female-related in a negative light. I believe the community at large is able to have an honest discussion, but a certain minority of users keep shutting it down by flagging submissions before it even has a chance to begin.
Man, I've been taking the wrong courses!
As in the therapy example: attraction might develop between the student & teacher. Instead of participating, the teacher should recognize/be aware that this exist but channel it back toward learning
It's a massive violation.
She offers a clinical yet sexually charged analysis of porn with no policy proposals (heaven forbid). Could there be a greater cliche in the Humanities departments of modern universities? Oh wait, of course she wants safe, legal sex work as well. Bingo!
She wants to eroticize pedagogy, but also make sure the college administration is there to manage it. Oh, the frisson! Reference to Fraud, er Freud? Check! OH WOW! SUCH FREUD!
Freudianism was/is a pseudo-scientific cult that only lit-crit academics and $200/hr therapists still take seriously. Along with its marxist offshoots, its radical political program was instrumental in the 20th century european/american cultural suicide that had its death rattle in the 60s counter-culture victory. Our modern malaise, including the ubiquitous porn rotting our children's sexual health is the creature of those flower-power radicals.
But it's just "Porn" in the abstract. Not the creation of actual people whom it would be fairly easy to constrain if there is a cultural will to do so. But hiding that fact behind the massive force of inevitable abstractions demoralizes the people, er "consumers", to the point of impotence. Essayists like this loathsome academic are the priestly caste of the modern world, they baffle and confuse decent people.
Why is that a problem? As long as people aren't coerced/forced into it, where's the harm?
The article doesn't actually seem to touch on "the right to sex" (it mentions it once, as a position held by some incels). I thought that would be an interesting discussion, and especially how it relates to the "right to reproduce" (and the perception by some that it is impossible in the present economy).
The two are connected, of course, by biological necessity. If no woman wants a man, then that man is unable to reproduce. I am told that in the semi-near future, it will be possible for such men to reproduce by means of artificial wombs. (And equally so for women, who do not wish to undergo pregnancy, yet desire children.)
Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought-terminating_clich%C3%A...
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic.
is spoken from their perspective or the book author's perspective. It's not a given that they agree with that sentiment. So it might be that the blog author briefly entertained their question of entitlement as a consideration before arriving at the conclusion quoted above, or they still favor it.
Similarly, I did not say and am not saying you are incompetent, I’m saying you are intentionally reading it wrong because the the implication conflicts with something you believe.
Parent isn't taking issue with the blog author being disgusted but rather the question the author raises.
I'll just copy what I said for your second sentence.
The blog author doesn't actually make it clear if the line
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic.
is spoken from their perspective or the book author's perspective. It's not a given that they agree with that sentiment. So it might be that the blog author briefly entertained their question of entitlement as a consideration before arriving at the conclusion quoted above, or they still favor it.
Parent probably has biases that led them to interpret it how they did, but everyone has biases and parent hasn't replied to me yet, so I'm not sure if they intentionally reading it that way.
Thomas Jefferson didn’t date black women but didn’t have a problem having sex with one his slaves (allegedly)
The remedy is to return to the traditional notion of family that was not the depraved wreckage you see before you.
Considering the article author is named Armand Halbert and is not a she I am pretty sure the biases you are showing are clouding your judgement.
The author doesn't say "not wanting to have sex with me is problematic", they say "not wanting to date someone based on their ethnicity is a political stance and it's problematic if it's the only factor in that decision". Granted the choice of words ("Are they entitled to have this preference") is poor but the whole sentence "Are they entitled to have this preference, when it comes to something as personal as dating and sex?" means "should something as personal as dating and sex be decided based on a political stance? ", the political stance being here "I don't date black people out of principle".
ELI5: it's problematic as a whole, for the community and society, when people decide not to mix, to mingle based on ethnicity.
How you arrive at the conclusion the author is promoting rape is beyond me.
For the posterity, this is the passage from the submission :
> In college, I was with a group of white men and the topic of dating came up. One of them mentioned he wouldn’t date a black woman. To my shock, the rest of the group agreed with him. We say that nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone else, but I was still disgusted. Are they entitled to have this preference, when it comes to something as personal as dating and sex?
The author explores this tension in “The Right to Sex”. You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic. To the author, there is a political dimension to what we desire. She cites an example of the Grindr short videos, called “What the Flip?”. In it, a beautiful white and asian man swap profiles. The white man has scores of lovers beckoning to him, the asian man comparatively few, and those he does match with send racist messages. To the author, this video illustrates the contradiction between the principle of consent and the principle of equity:
> > the question, then, is how to dwell in the ambivalent place where we acknowledge that no one is obligated to desire anyone else, that no one has a right to be desired, but also that who is desired and who isn’t is a political question.
And this is the relevant (I think) passage of the author (Amia Srinivasan) of the essay being discussed in submitted blog post:
> In her shrewd essay ‘Men Explain Lolita to Me’, Rebecca Solnit reminds us that ‘you don’t get to have sex with someone unless they want to have sex with you,’ just as ‘you don’t get to share someone’s sandwich unless they want to share their sandwich with you.’ Not getting a bite of someone’s sandwich is ‘not a form of oppression, either’, Solnit says. But the analogy complicates as much as it elucidates. Suppose your child came home from primary school and told you that the other children share their sandwiches with each other, but not with her. And suppose further that your child is brown, or fat, or disabled, or doesn’t speak English very well, and that you suspect that this is the reason for her exclusion from the sandwich-sharing. Suddenly it hardly seems sufficient to say that none of the other children is obligated to share with your child, true as that might be.
> Sex is not a sandwich. While your child does not want to be shared with out of pity – just as no one really wants a mercy fuck, and certainly not from a racist or a transphobe – we wouldn’t think it coercive were the teacher to encourage the other students to share with your daughter, or were they to institute an equal sharing policy. But a state that made analogous interventions in the sexual preference and practices of its citizens – that encouraged us to ‘share’ sex equally – would probably be thought grossly authoritarian. (The utopian socialist Charles Fourier proposed a guaranteed ‘sexual minimum’, akin to a guaranteed basic income, for every man and woman, regardless of age or infirmity; only with sexual deprivation eliminated, Fourier thought, could romantic relationships be truly free. This social service would be provided by an ‘amorous nobility’ who, Fourier said, ‘know how to subordinate love to the dictates of honour’.) Of course, it matters just what those interventions would look like: disability activists, for example, have long called for more inclusive sex education in schools, and many would welcome regulation that ensured diversity in advertising and the media. But to think that such measures would be enough to alter our sexual desires, to free them entirely from the grooves of discrimination, is naive. And whereas you can quite reasonably demand that a group of children share their sandwiches inclusively, you just can’t do the same with sex. What works in one case will not work in the other. Sex isn’t a sandwich, and it isn’t really like anything else either. There is nothing else so riven with politics and yet so inviolably personal. For better or worse, we must find a way to take sex on its own terms.
No, that still isn't problematic. It's someone's right to choose who they have sex with. Only a rapist denies that.
> ELI5: it's problematic as a whole, for the community and society, when people decide not to mix, to mingle based on ethnicity.
Not mingle. Sex. That's different.
Some people are really eager to defend rape apologia and I have to wonder why.
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic
You rather took this one line out of context and interpreted in the worst possible way.
I also find it sexist that both examples of racial preferences involve men, when it's well-established that women have stronger racial preferences than men, for example, white women prefer white men over Asian men (the least desirable group of men) by a much larger margin than white men prefer white women over Black women (the least desirable group of women). You could probably do the Grindr experiment on Tinder and find that the white man has an easier matching with women than the Asian man (especially if "Asian" means "Indian man" and not "K-pop idol dreamboat").
It's also strange to focus on men, when women are the pickier gender, especially when it comes to sex but to lesser extent also when it comes to dating. Even the undesirable black woman probably has an easier time hooking up than most white men.
Of course, it all makes sense when you realize that most modern-day feminists are only interested in pointing out the “problematic” behavior of men and how it impacts women, and never the other way around.
Finally, you phrased it as “THE problematic aspects of sexuality in our society” but the crux is that defining WHICH aspects are problematic is itself subjective and political. In Western society feminism dominates the institutions, so we get the result that "men rejecting black women" is problematic and "women rejecting Asian men" is not problematic. Of course, this isn't at all objective.
Nevermind, seems like I suffered from the same misunderstanding. I even read the next part but I forgot.
> You are not entitled to sex with anyone, but people can have preferences that are problematic.
is spoken from their perspective or the book author's perspective. It's not a given that they agree with that sentiment. So it might be that the blog author briefly entertained their question of entitlement as a consideration before arriving at the conclusion quoted above, or they still favor it.
There’s dates without sex and sex without dates
Dating implies a lot of things: relationships, sex and a path for love, marriage, family
I'm not saying dating literally means having sex. I'm saying in this context sex is a logical progression from dating.
Wtf, is this what passes for conversation this week-end on HN ? "Do your own research" as if it's an answer and a opinion ? What's next ? "Google a counter-argument" ?
https://prostitution.procon.org/questions/should-prostitutio...
I don't doubt that the people providing cons (i.e. why prostitution should be illegal) mean well for sexually exploited people. However, I think the Pro 6 excerpt is quite comprehensive and reasonable:
No person’s human or civil rights should be violated on the basis of their trade, occupation, work, calling or profession.
No law has ever succeeded in stopping prostitution.
...
Non-consenting adults and all children forced into sexual activity...deserve the full protection of the law and perpetrators deserve full punishment by the law.
Workers in the sex industry deserve the same rights as workers in any other trade, including the right to legal protection from crimes such as sexual harassment, sexual abuse and rape…
...
Unscrupulous people should be summarily dealt with by the law, regardless of which profession they corrupt.I suggest you can't really have a useful understanding of political questions in the abstract. When you look into the history of these policy decisions, there's always something more going on than a purely reasoned universal morality.
Take your example of Prohibition. The Temperance Movement was around for a long time before it formed a political party and started gaining traction. Why? Was there any connection between the massive social upheavals that were changing the society in the U.S. at the turn of the century that might have put wind in the sails of this party? Prohibition was "progressive" politics but does that word "progressive" still mean what it meant then? No. You can't have a Progressive party without some sense of "progressing towards what?". In that case, you were talking about the WASP ruling class that had very long-held ideas about what progress meant, dating back to before the founding of the country by English Dissenters. Of course, the advent of WWI had the normal accompanying propaganda campaign. Prohibition benefited from wider anti-German sentiment (anti-beer) and war-time grain conservation efforts.
But, arguably a bigger reason for Prohibition's policy achievements were widespread anxiety about urbanization and "saloon" culture in the cities, which was widely and accurately associated with immigrants and african americans. In a sense, you can see Prohibition as a last-gasp attempt to control the social forces changing America at that time and restore "law and order". The fact that it gave rise to organized criminal gangs (mostly run by the very people they were trying to restrain) was an unintended consequence. We see a similar thing at work with the War on Drugs.
I would argue, the reason these Prohibition-type campaigns against vice fail is because they treat the symptoms, not the disease. The disease is a culture that is dissipated and lacks moral cohesion. Arguing about "moral universalisms" like libertarianism proposes is just more of the same. All honest morality is particular, just like all rights are particular. There has never been and never will be a universal morality without turning the world into one homogeneous goo. So long as there are different peoples, there will difference conceptions of the good. The sort of pro/con argumentation is a distraction from reality, imho.
I agree with everything you said about morality. There is no real cure for the "disease"; critical thinking is lacking among the populace but even with it, people will still hold various moralities. I think the government should enforce a few minimal, overarching rights and households and companies can impose additional restrictions (idea may need refinement). There is no universal morality, so I say we should provide maximal freedom within reason. That would at least be a subset of many people's moralities. At the end of the day I'd rather have some government than none.
I appreciated the pro/con linked because I could see why other people held the positions they did and because I found a perspective that particularly resonated with my morality. Understanding where other people are coming from is useful even if they have significantly different moralities, I think.
If you're actually a serious person, it's your lucky day. I enjoy a good conversation and will reply to this thread as long as you're interested. If not, well, that's what passes for conversation on HN any old week.
But if you are actually serious then you'll have to be a little more specific in your request: "Could you point to some online references of what you are suggesting?"
Btw, I wouldn't consider calling something garbage as being the same as "problematizing" in the way that word is typically used. More the opposite. My purpose is to warn well-meaning but naive or gullible people off this crap before they waste too much time (or worse). It's a trap.
Let's do this.
> No, that still isn't problematic. It's someone's right to choose who they have sex with. Only a rapist denies that.
Fine, I'll get down to your level.
You think it's not problematic for people not to date black women because they are black. Only racists agree with that.
> > ELI5: it's problematic as a whole, for the community and society, when people decide not to mix, to mingle based on ethnicity.
> Not mingle. Sex. That's different.
> Some people are really eager to defend rape apologia and I have to wonder why.
So far you have accused a lot of people of defending rape apologia without providing any explanations as to why the text would suggest that. When given comments explaining why the text, the blog author or the original essays author isn't promoting rape you get back to "you are all defending rape apologia".
That's enough. Good luck.
But that's not true. You can be non-racist and non-ableist but still less sexually attracted by certain body types and/or racial features. And you can be racist and at the same time attracted by them.
Not date. Have sex with. That's the whole crux. Engage with it.
There is a real cure for the disease, but it involves creating enclaves of such populations. The early American settlers were such a population. Barring a new frontier and settler population capable of self-government, then we look back to the conditions that allow for culture to develop. Culture cannot develop without separation and boundaries.
Think of the culture of any organization. If you've ever been part of a growing corporation, you'll have experienced culture changes in person as the org becomes larger and larger. With more diverse personnel, the surface area of commonality becomes smaller and smaller. HR starts to take on more and more of a role in dictating the rules of the org. Disputes must be arbitrated by the corporate "government". Compare to how things were in the beginning, when much agreement could be assumed and people could generally "manage themselves".
The analogy, obviously, is to society and government. When people don't have the "moral law within," then we start to see all kinds of new rules to constrain a multifarious population that doesn't constrain itself. You can have a very diverse society with many rules, or a very homologous society with very few official rules (but many implied). You can't have both at the same time. The irony is that the effect of having many rules is that the individual people become all the same, because they have delegated their moral decision-making apparatus to the state. Morals are just an indirect way of saying Values. Values are what people think are better/good and worse/bad. So, basically, the State is deciding what is good/bad. Hence, the people running the State (those practicing realpolitik) decide what is good or bad.
- James Mill
I fear we have doomed ourselves from the start by forming societies. There is always some risk of corruption no matter the extent of education. If the government does wrong, will the people rise up? Indeed, how right and wrong are decided lies in the hearts of every person. When angels seem as devils and devils angels, what recourse does one have? There are but words that proclaim ideals and actions that rage to enact them. To set one's soul on fire, and hope there will be those who take up the torch in turn.
Your quote from James Mill is interesting for many reasons but also for it coming from such a political radical as James Mill. He was one of the formulators of what would become liberalism/progressivism and himself a proto-technocrat. The Latin quote itself is much older, as you would suppose, and the sentiment goes at least back to Plato.
The same idea pops up in J.S. Mill in the context of laying out a justification for technocracy, i.e., large societies are complex, managing complexity takes skill, skill takes time to acquire, lives are short, therefore, managerial skill must necessarily be invested in a small number of dedicated civil servants (technocrats), and not in the hands of representatives in parliament/congress. The question "who watches the watchers" refers to the bad judgment of Parliament vis a vis the technocrats:
"The bad measures or bad appointments of a minister may be checked by Parliament; and the interest of ministers in defending, and of rival partisans in attacking, secures a tolerably equal discussion; but quis custodiet custodes? who shall check the Parliament? A minister, a head of an office, feels himself under some responsibility. An assembly in such cases feels under no responsibility at all; for when did any member of Parliament lose his seat for the vote he gave on any detail of administration? To a minister, or the head of an office, it is of more importance what will be thought of his proceedings some time hence, than what is thought of them at the instant; but an assembly, if the cry of the moment goes with it, however hastily raised or artificially stirred up, thinks itself and is thought by every body, to be completely exculpated, however disastrous may be the consequences. Besides, an assembly never personally experiences the inconveniences of its bad measures until they have reached the dimensions of national evils. Ministers and administrators see them approaching, and have to bear all the annoyance and trouble of attempting to ward them off."
Had JS Mill lived to see our modern administrative state he might have been less enthusiastic for the integrity and farsightedness of bureaucrats.
My own answer to this is that the watchers must be aligned with the watched at a deep and abiding level. They must come from the same places, same economic conditions, same religion, same value system, same history. Their children must go to the same schools, marry and reproduce with their constituents, their own family's welfare must be tied up with the health and success of the community overall. No amount of "education" can substitute for a lived reality of sharing in the commonwealth of the community. And this societal health cannot be reduced to material welfare. That is the great flaw (angel-seeming devil) in secular materialism. Whatever the ultimate reality is or isn't, there is nothing in secular materialism that can provide for the incorporation of the leadership into the body politic the way a deep and successful culture can. The American WASP culture was that for a few hundred years. In contrast, our present political "consensus" has no solution to moral dissolution (except to double down on a kind of anti-morality). The only way out is down and through some kind of large-scale re-calibrating event, like a global war, which no one wants to experience.
That's fair. I guess alien societies would also have problems of their own, so wishing to not be human probably isn't good enough.
> therefore, managerial skill must necessarily be invested in a small number of dedicated civil servants (technocrats),
Ah yes, the sufficiently smart (and benevolent!) bureaucrats TM. Works every time, 50% of the time.
> My own answer to this is that the watchers must be aligned with the watched at a deep and abiding level. They must come from the same places, same economic conditions, same religion, same value system, same history. Their children must go to the same schools, marry and reproduce with their constituents, their own family's welfare must be tied up with the health and success of the community overall.
I agree, but how do we go about selecting them? It would be nice if politicians felt less otherly, but that's more wishful than realistic. With power comes responsibility, and the gap between citizens and politicians is unhelpful.
> In contrast, our present political "consensus" has no solution to moral dissolution (except to double down on a kind of anti-morality).
I feel like people are moreso doubling down on their beliefs.
> The only way out is down and through some kind of large-scale re-calibrating event, like a global war, which no one wants to experience.
Be optimistic; maybe it'll just be a few civil wars.