Ask HN: Any freelancers here? I need burnout advice

62 points by __jambo 2 years ago | 76 comments

I have about 3 Yoe webdev/+physics/mech eng degree. Worked a few contracts then my own Saas thing, now pretty burned out. Don't really need funding or a team, just a bit of time.

Was thinking to just to dumb manual labour while I recover/finish my product. I don't think I can hack a 3 month job hunt for a "legit" job and I feel like taking tech contracts will also create a lot of mental overhead since I'm in the headspace for my own work right now.

Maybe tutoring would be better than Ubereats gig work, but honestly a lot of software contracts seem to be turned into BS gig work and at least with manual labour you are doing something real.

Looking for validation and ideas.

qazxcvbnmlp 2 years ago |

Burnout comes from reward != work/effort put in over a long period of time.

Building your own thing can be very conducive to burnout b/c most of the time you’re not really getting a lot of positive ideas.

Everyone likes to say that vacation is the solution to burnout, and it can be, but it’s not the end all be all. Your brain needs to feel contentment at the end of a typical day. Contentment indicates you’re filling all your emotional needs. Just like relaxing is a need, being told your work matters is an emotional need too.

You want something “real” - eg tangible evidence that what you are doing matters.

If you have financial means - I’d recommend taking a part time job where your output is immediately visible (bartending, carpentry, landscaping, (I personally load bags on airplanes)). Remember the goal is not to make money, it’s to have people tell you what you are doing matters. Eg, have someone notice the extra 5 mins you put in to make the lawn lines straight. See the smile on a regular when you remember their order. Etc.

lostlogin 2 years ago | |

> Burnout comes from reward != work/effort put in over a long period of time.

I don’t agree. You can be well paid and well rewarded and burnt out. People need holiday, breaks and time to relax. If you are busy and stressed for a long period, hobbies don’t get time, life admin doesn’t get done and exhaustion comes to dominates weekends and evenings.

satisfice 2 years ago | | |

Think about “reward” more broadly. When it comes to burnout, your body doesn’t care about money. Money is not a reward in and of itself, but rather it’s your feeling about money that matters.

When you experience burnout, it’s not due to muscle fatigue or lack of sleep. Burnout happens when you aren’t getting something that you need psychologically, over a long period of time. Then the psychological deficit begins to have physical symptoms.

I experienced burnout quite a bit in the first half of my life; hardly any in the second half. I’m 57.

The advice I got that helped the most is to listen to that little voice in my mind that was telling me “stop, I don’t like this!”

Also, I learned that when I am helping people and I feel respected in what I do my mind will happily endure whatever must be done.

Burnout is the result of a spiritual vitamin deficiency. I realize that is a metaphor for “chronic cortisol poisoning” or some biochemical thing, but the solution is to discover and stop the dynamic on the level of your mind.

JohnFen 2 years ago | | |

I agree. I've known lots of devs who've suffered burnout over the decades (although it's far more common now than it used to be). I did myself, as well.

All of those devs were well-compensated. I don't see even a hint that the level of compensation enters into it in my small, not-statistically-significant sampling.

unforeseen9991 2 years ago | | |

Yeah, by that definition people going to school or learning a new career that can take years of effort would all be in perpetual burnout.

I think that's way too simplistic of a definition of what causes burnout.

badpun 2 years ago | |

> Building your own thing can be very conducive to burnout b/c most of the time you’re not really getting a lot of positive ideas.

That's a very good observation. Once in my late twenties, I took two years off to pursue an idea which didn't pan out in the end. Luckily, I ended up with minimal debt only, and was able to quickly return to working for others afterwards. But, since that experience, my motivation levels for anything I'm doing work-wise have never been the same. BTW, perhaps they were just too high before (the naivety of youth) and are not at a proper level.

23B1 2 years ago |

When I was burned out I dedicated myself to learning something completely outside of my current context. I plan on doing this regularly now, maybe every 2-3 years. On my docket is:

- Woodworking

- Cooking - especially baking, since it can be extremely challenging to create the 'perfect' baguette or croissant

- Gardening

- Writing a novel

etc.

Best solution for burnout IMO is to completely refresh your mind with something that is challenging but low-stress.

shaftway 2 years ago | |

Not sure woodworking is "low-stress", though I guess it depends on what exactly you plan on making.

I have had a number of failures at all phases of projects. One was 20 hours of work and a grand in materials that I were totally junk (I had to pay more to drop it off at the dump). One was fairly low material cost, but ~40 hours in it was ruined.

Now I make duplicates in case of failures. My last project I got material for 10, was able to actually get 7 blanks due to cracks and knots, 5 didn't get tear out so bad they were worthless, and 4 at the end after a final gluing mistake. One for me, and two that were gifts for friends. One spare, out of materials for 10.

I get anxiety about starting new projects because I worry about how much material to get to account for my mistakes.

JohnFen 2 years ago |

The best dev I ever knew developed a serious case of burnout. He went to truck-driving school and drove long-haul trucks for a couple of years. He then came back to software development cured of his burnout.

Not saying that you should drive trucks, but I think doing something else -- something completely unrelated to dev work -- might be of help.

seabass-labrax 2 years ago | |

There was a rather weird episode in British political history just after the first wave of COVID lockdowns. The performance arts, limited to outdoor events, were struggling, leading to jokes mocking the government's advice for these performers to 'upskill' as computer programmers. Simultaneously, the lack of temporary residents from other EU countries (who comprise the majority of truck/lorry drivers) due to Brexit meant that computer programmers were joking about 'upskilling' to become drivers with double a programmer's salary!

jsunderland323 2 years ago | |

I feel like taking a job where people take meth to drive for 3 days without sleep is probably the weirdest way to overcome JavaScript fatigue.

Clubber 2 years ago | | |

You should probably brush up on modern trucking regulations that have been in place for at least 20 years.

JohnFen 2 years ago | | |

That in no way resembles his work experience. He did tell me a few interesting things, though. He was really surprised how many software devs he met who were driving the big rigs. It seems to be a thing.

Another was how many skills overlap the two fields. Driving the big rig is an exercise in resource management and planning, so you can do things like ensure that by the time you need more fuel, you're in a place where the fuel costs are lower.

leros 2 years ago |

I have a few thoughts:

1) Can you afford to live off a manual labor job? If so, that might be a good approach since you can work that manual labor job and still have mental energy afterwards to work on your SaaS. It's much harder doing mental tech work after already doing mentally taxing work at your job.

2) If you do contracting, does it have to be full time? Presumably you could make more money doing tech contracting than a manual labor job, so if you could work 10-20 hours a week contracting, you'd still have time left for your SaaS.

3) Regardless of your approach to earning money, you need to set aside time for self-care. You need to be sleeping, relaxing, socializing, and sometimes relaxing by doing nothing. It might seem like time not dedicated to your work, but you need to work in a sustainable way as you're finding out.

__jambo 2 years ago | |

> you can work that manual labor job and still have mental energy afterwards to work on your SaaS. It's much harder doing mental tech work after already doing mentally taxing work at your job.

this is exactly what I was thinking. Thank for the validation, I'm glad someone else has this experience. Also I do a lot of debugging subconsciously, so taking other tech work is just a lot.

rossdavidh 2 years ago |

Nearly all work (contract or not) is something that somebody would rather pay you to do, than do themselves. Well run software companies with tidy, well architected software need far fewer devs than the ones with nasty bloat and a lot of legacy problems, so that's why most of the jobs are with the latter. The reality is that work is only occasionally fun, and usually something you would not do if you didn't want the money. This is true in software, or anything else.

Having said that, it also shouldn't be something you hate. If you hate it, then it is time to do something else, at least for a while. Also, who knows, taking a manual labor job for a while might give you ideas for how software could improve the situation (just a possibility).

__jambo 2 years ago | |

>Well run software companies with tidy, well architected software need far fewer devs than the ones with nasty bloat and a lot of legacy problems

this is a good point I can relate with!

doublerebel 2 years ago |

You seem to have burned out pretty quickly. Most small business and startups take 5+ years to be sustainable and/or find an exit.

What most commenters here are assuming is that you will like this same kind of work after you take a break. I'm not sure that you've discovered the difference between the kind of work that you think you like vs the kind of work you really like and/or doesn't feel like work. Lots of us with certain skills feel like we should fit in a certain job and/or be able to handle running a business on our own, but that doesn't mean it's the case.

Above all I would recommend finding any job where you feel valued -- either by your colleagues or because you feel you are doing something productive and/or rewarding. I've had scores of different jobs over the years across different industries and what you may end up wanting to do long-term may surprise you.

Don't spend too much time inside your own head in a loop. I totally agree with this comment from qazxcvbnmlp:

> If you have financial means - I’d recommend taking a part time job where your output is immediately visible (bartending, carpentry, landscaping, (I personally load bags on airplanes)). Remember the goal is not to make money, it’s to have people tell you what you are doing matters. Eg, have someone notice the extra 5 mins you put in to make the lawn lines straight. See the smile on a regular when you remember their order. Etc.

I'd replace "financial means" with "budgetary discipline". It's much easier to take all kinds of opportunities if you are disciplined about expenses.

rodrigodlu 2 years ago |

You need to try a little bit of everything.

In my case I'm giving myself time, but using my own stash. I'm not exactly burned out RN, but not willing to work with the same stuff as before or at the same type of environment.

DIY stuff really helps. I did some furniture myself, doing basic maintenance on my car, cooking.

Trying to get better at journaling myself with stuff like Logstash/Obsidian along with mechanical keyboards.

Also I always wanted to become more proficient with VIM and motions.

So really spending time with small little things and realizing the differences, from one type of saw cutting the wood for my furniture to how different is the blue switch to brown switch in a mech keyb, or why it's now faster for me to change oil and filters on my car than taking it to a place.

This takes a lot of pressure while I'm learning the technologies and figuring out what kind of challenges I want for myself for the next decade, and having plenty energy to follow all this hype around AI and understanding what's bullshit or not.

slau 2 years ago |

I’ve been doing freelance for the past 4-5 years. The first few years I focused on building a bit of runway, and now I’ve reduced the amount of time I’m available for my clients.

I typically take about 10-12 weeks off every year. Today I just got back to working after a 5 week holiday. For the past 6 months before that, I only worked about half time for clients as I was working on one of my own products.

Treat your own project as a client. Keep track of how much time you spend (not to bill yourself, but to keep an eye on whether what you’re doing is profitable), and work during your regular work hours. Keep evenings and weekends for family and hobbies.

lagniappe 2 years ago |

If you can afford to take time and do a less demanding job, go for it. Restaurants are great for addressing programmer stress for a few reasons:

- when you're done for the day, you're done for the day

- you make a thing and then immediately see people smiling and happy

- interfacing with many people of many walks of life, everyone eats.

The fact that you noticed a pattern, or a problem, and knew the steps to address it in a way that wouldn't leave you idle is significant and shouldn't be disregarded. For that reason, I think you'll find your peace and it looks like you already know the way. Take care and good luck on the next leg of your journey!

bigasscoffee 2 years ago |

If you're burnt, the best thing to do to fix that is take time off. Try walking (1hr/day) with out your phone and just disconnect to see if that helps immediately. Try to spend more time outside or in nature if possible to help you decompress and recover faster.

atlasunshrugged 2 years ago | |

Strongly second this -- disconnecting from tech and stressors has been helpful for me in the past. Lots of walking, reading physical books, and just going places and thinking (I'm partial to a nice waterfront but your mileage may vary)

akamaka 2 years ago |

The unemployment rate is at a multi-decade low, so there’s never been a better time find a random job in an non-software area.

If it were me, I’d go work as a barista in San Francisco for 3 months and master my latte arts skills, while also getting exposed to the tech scene out there.

nickdothutton 2 years ago |

Take a vacation. Get outside into nature, whatever takes your fancy. Mountain, coast, woods, wildness. Do something with animals. Start a new hobby. Buy a telescope. Build an aquarium.

hinkley 2 years ago | |

Part of the reason contractor hourlies are so high is that you’re not meant to bill 2100 hours a year. Aim for north of 1500 and south of 1900.

Burnout on contracting gigs was always a problem for me because W2 contracting does tend to expect 2000 hours a year. But I hate job hunting so I steered clear of 6 month engagements.

mongol 2 years ago | | |

What does W2 mean? I have seen it twice in this thread now.

firebirdn99 2 years ago |

Mental health is your biggest asset, and without it, you can't function in life let alone job. Taking care of that is anyone's number one priority. Took a career break last year, and it was one of the best decisions I made.

It's important to also have a plan so you know at least roughly how long you can have your break for ($ wise), and what you will do in that time. I've come back to work feeling much better and knowing what/how I want my career to look like/unfold. Job hunting is hard especially now, but clearing your mind of burnout is important to build your resilience and confidence in your skills and conveying that in interviews.

wwarner 2 years ago |

There is https://www.recurse.com/

__jambo 2 years ago | |

super cool idea! thankyou

tony_cannistra 2 years ago |

I am not a freelancer, so you can stop reading if you want. But I'd like to validate your burnout, which is very real.

It's also incredibly refreshing to do something totally different. I would choose wisely, though. Not really the same situation, but I went and became a naturalist guide at a nature preserve between my undergrad computer science degree and my Ph.D. Working outside not only totally refreshed me but gave me much-needed perspective. I think something similar can be said for pouring beers or delivering food.

lakotasapa 2 years ago |

I'm in Silicon Valley and done that been there. I found the "burnt out" feeling was mostly lack of motivation and inspiration. I realize they're in abundance but the big differentiator was someone local, being f2f sounding board. Although I met a few via meetup.com none inspired me enough to continue my meetup as it felt mostly one way. It sure be nice to find someone inspired to do more. If you're in the S.Bay, ping me. I'm be fullstack with my career being in prog mgmt. I'm on my way to writing up func spec then out src the coding work just so I can get "started."

[EDITED] Didn't want to write deep philosophical statement but having gone through group therapy for burnout. Found for me that it equates to depression. As many have said, self care _is_ your #1 priority. Since I love creating, especially apps/tools I personally need. I need to do it to get myself out of a rut and also do something in love while trying to support my family.

mcv 2 years ago |

A friend of mine quit his PhD work to work as a shop security guard for a couple of years. It was because of his serious RSI rather than burnout, but stepping out of the software world to do something completely different is absolutely an option.

Although my very limited knowledge of burnout is that you shouldn't work at all. I don't know. You should probably talk to your doctor or therapist.

narenarya 2 years ago |

There are many things that can reduce your burnout, if you are willing to do:

1. Read some philosophy (Greek, Indian, Buddhist, whatever) 2. Spend good time with your family, especially your parents 3. Go for hiking 4. Do meditation (on self) 5. Call your childhood friends 6. Try cooking new dishes (and fail, it is fun) 7. Read physical books

itake 2 years ago |

I spent about 2 years doing something similar.

I found a startup that couldn't afford a full time dev, but needed someone to keep the lights on and ship a feature or two per week while they looked for customers and fundraised.

I worked 15-20 hours per week for them. Their work actually was the foundation of my day. If I _just_ work on my startup, I tend to spend time going to the gym, relaxing, and socializing instead of actually working. Their 7am meetings helped me get up and get started.

They paid $100+/hr or ($7,200/mo pre-tax), which was more than I needed for my lifestyle.

One word of caution though is that if your startup fails, you are knee-capping your career. The 2 years I spent freelancing put me 2 years behind my peers that jumped directly into big tech companies. Meaning I was 1-2 levels below them and I missed some of the equity surge in 2021-2022.

gizajob 2 years ago |

Why don't you go and volunteer at something physical in SE Asia? Not too expensive and cheap to live there. Could be a good change of scene. I'm also thinking of physical work as a curative to sitting and thinking - it's not the be all and end all. Neither is making money.

cateye 2 years ago |

The conventional wisdom around burnout often emphasizes taking a break or pursuing hobbies, and while I'm not against that approach, I'd like to propose a potentially more contentious angle. Consider that burnout might not stem from the sheer volume of work but rather the cognitive load it imposes.

Many of us in the tech industry feel overwhelmed, not necessarily by the actual tasks, but by a lack of clear understanding of what needs to be done or what you have accomplished.

To tackle this, ask yourself precise questions: What are the specific tasks at hand? What have you truly accomplished? What's causing the stress? Identifying and rigorously addressing these underlying stressors might lead to a more fundamental solution to burnout.

clay_the_ripper 2 years ago |

I am in a very similar situation. Been freelancing for 6 years, done my own saas thing which is profitable but needs more time to grow. Seriously burned out, like to the max.

I just took on a full time w2 salary position at a mid stage startup. Salary isn’t incredible, but it’s predicable and is allowing me to establish a work life balance. I plan to do this for a couple of years at least to rest my nervous system and rebuild my savings.

There’s no wrong answer - do whatever will bring back your sanity (but don’t go broke doing it, that’s just more stressful!)

sikkolata 2 years ago |

I’d say take a long enough vacation (not just a week) to re-consider yourself if you can afford to do so. It’s risky to make decisions about your life when you’re burnt out.

amelius 2 years ago |

Burnout advice: try to sleep 10+ hours a night for some time.

pillefitz 2 years ago | |

That's not something most adults can simply do. I often wake up after 7-7.5 hrs and manage to sleep for slightly longer only when severely exhausted or sleep deprived. The rare nights I sleep longer, I interestingly feel more energetic the next day

barbariangrunge 2 years ago |

Everyone saying, take a vacation, but most people can’t easily afford that. Can you risk it when you might go back, hole in your bank account, the burnout possibly not cured?

But a part time job, for a year or two, doing non software work? Especially something social and physical? That might be viable, if you can get your expenses down enough. But most jobs outside software pay so badly, you won’t be able to afford rent or proper food…

firebirdn99 2 years ago | |

If you don't have a rental agreement in place, then the costs for travel is largely from flight travel. And many places locally are easy to fly for just several hundred $. If you have more of a budget, you can travel overseas in relatively cheap economic countries. It can be done if you plan accordingly within a budget.

Also helps if you are solo, and can cook. And I also think it's a great energy recharger and helped me when I was burnt out.

slashdev 2 years ago |

How low can you get your expenses? What’s your savings?

Doing gig work might be fine if it helps you survive long enough. If you’re unwilling to get your expenses low enough though, then that’s not even on the table.

Always plan for more time than you need. If you need three months, make sure you have an extra six of padding, if you can. You may need it if forced into the job search or something unexpected happens.

mitchellpkt 2 years ago |

Just find one or two temp agencies in your area - they’ll probably get you placed into the type of gig you want quickly, and there will be no expectation for long term commitment. Can’t hurt to try.

At one point I had a 3 month break between research gigs, and just got a temp job moving boxes around a factory. Long hours and bad pay but it was a nice change of pace for a bit.

ensocode 2 years ago |

Same here. In for 10 years now. Same issues. I am running a homestead now and the manual work and seeing things developing makes me happy. Sure, time is even less than before and sometimes it is exhausting, but the weekends give something visible back and it is much more real than the abstract work we usually do. Good luck!

clintmcmahon 2 years ago |

Had a case of this burnout about ten years ago. I quit software and started a t-shirt company. Like others are mentioning, it was totally different and contained a lot of manual labor. It felt good and when the time was right to come back to software I came back as a freelancer with a fresh and entirely new outlook on coding for a living.

svnt 2 years ago |

Depending on location right now is the perfect time to get a seasonal farming job.

Your brain needs something other than screens for a while.

The brain capacity thing is real: context switching destroys your productivity and you can’t use your whole brain for your project if you’re doing that.

Aleksdev 2 years ago |

I’m not sure what would work for you but for me it was boxing class. I also want to try fishing.

I think the most important thing is to put away the phone and take a crack at something where you don’t have to think as much and just follow some kind of routine.

richardjennings 2 years ago |

I have learnt to withhold my natural tendency to care too much, or invest too much of myself personally into my work. When I invest too much personally, I am too exposed emotionally and I run the risk of burning out.

Clubber 2 years ago |

Taking vacations helps. It's tough in the US though. Like others have said, make sure you exercise 3 days a week, preferably daily for a least 30 minutes. Eat well, sleep well.

moralestapia 2 years ago |

You need a vacation.

Do you have some money saved up? If so, just take a vacation.

mcv 2 years ago | |

Vacations are important. Even just a week can sometimes give you a very healthy reset. Of course I don't mean just a week off, but getting out of the house, travelling somewhere nice and just enjoying seeing new places. If it has to be cheap: go camping.

moralestapia 2 years ago | | |

Yes, just make sure to completely remove yourself from work (and other chores).

If you bring your laptop with you and keep doing stuff in it, it doesn't count.

_mlvljr 2 years ago |

Can still take contract jobs focusing on something you know very well, doesn't pose that much of a burden -- no learning involved, less stress.

akhayam 2 years ago |

I would recommend doing Mechanical Turk work: https://www.mturk.com/.

It'll give you ideas for your next gig as well.

gizajob 2 years ago | |

Why would you recommend it??? It's sitting doing mindless tedious annoying mouseclicky work and kinda stressful to do enough and get the right jobs, and pays actual peanuts. I wouldn't recommend this as a curative to OP's issue at all.

Gnarl 2 years ago |

Been freelancing for ~20 years now. Mostly high-end contracts. Did develop burnout that morphed into depression. Avoided social contact for a good while but then a guy who was much worse off, came into my life and dragged me out street drumming as a part of a rag-tag improv group. Turns out I was pretty good at it. That pretty much cured me, having people - perfect strangers - react happily and wildly to the beats and grooves.

At age 50 I finally got that drivers license and find now that driving is therapy: having to concentrate on one thing only.

TLDR; do something that's fun and is outside of what you'd normally do. Reset your brain!