Ask HN: I've spent $1M+ building a fitness app. Now what?

Ask HN: I've spent $1M+ building a fitness app. Now what? | Dark Hacker News

19 points by ptwobrussell 2 years ago | 53 comments

# I've spent $1mm+ building a fitness app. Now what?

## Situation Report:

- I've been bootstrapping a consumer-grade (native iOS + Apple Watch) fitness app for the past few years, and I've spent over $1mm (not including my own time; that's real post-tax cash money) getting to this point.

- I'm a solo founder with a ~20 year professional background in building + shipping enterprise software products, and the vast majority of my focus has been on building the app itself (with the help of a lean team of contractors and freelancers.)

- The app itself is fairly polished and perfectly usable. It's in the App Store right now, I use it daily, and there's a small trickle of users. However, there's no clear signs of PMF or traction yet -- and that's essentially the problem to be solved.

- If time and money were no object, I would love to continue working on this app indefinitely. I'm obsessed with human performance + fitness, and building this kind of product is fun. I believe in the longer-term potential to turn this into a viable business, though I don't have a line of sight to that yet. (And at the same time, I'm just getting a little exhausted trying to do so much for so long with so little support!)

- Practically speaking, I can't keep putting time + money into this forever, I don't think I can/should try to raise outside capital until I can show some clear traction with what I've already built -- and I'm increasingly starting to second guess myself and wonder if my current strategy for launching and monetizing a B2C app as a solo founder might just be a fool's errand.

So, I'm thinking about how to honestly assess the situation and determine what's the next best step for finding PMF...

## Considerations

Some of things I'm considering (which are not mutually exclusive)

- Start trying to recruit a co-founder with a penchant for fitness + legit passion for marketing to help find traction + go to the next level

- Go into code freeze (e.g. taper expenses to the lowest possible level), take a holiday break to freshen my perspective, and (at least temporarily) reframe this as a side-hustle in the new year with most of that energy going into marketing

- Start building a pipeline of potential acquirers who might be interested in picking up from where I'm at and frame an offer around the source code + registered trademarks. (e.g. increase my luck of getting acquired or acqui-hired)

In general, I'm leaning towards a strategy where I freeze the product for a while and put 99% of the time + money + energy into marketing for purposes of finding PMF.

(I don't think trying to raise outside capital right now makes sense given market conditions or the lack of demonstrated traction, but that might be a limiting belief?)

## Ask HN

Anything else you'd add to the list of possibilities, or any strategic advice you'd offer from prior experience?

aristofun 2 years ago |

All busieness and marketing advice aside, let me tell you the brutal truth from an average iPhone user, poor gym enthisiast and former b2c product manager perspective.

Your app looks like a weak vitamin, not a pain killer.

Looking at website, appstore screenshots and descriptions I got a relatively vague, generic and weak message "train smarter".

- What's in it for me?

- What exactly would I gain by wasting my time, focus and money on yet another AI gimmick?

- Who is this app made for exactly (professional athletes, lazy bums like me, weight loss enthusiasts, amateur bodybuilders, powerlifters, those dreaming of winning iron man...)?

I don't read any good and specific answers on these questions (even if I for a moment forget that 99% of amateur training success is just about consistency not "smartness") and don't want to even bother installing the app.

This is what b2c PMF is about - about the fit (the click) in user's head.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

This is 100% valid feedback, and I appreciate that you took the time to share it. I'm at that point, where I need some "brutal truth" to help me navigate the next few steps...

I definitely need to update the language on the site to be a lot more precise and clear about these questions you've raised.

> This is what b2c PMF is about - about the fit (the click) in user's head.

That's a great takeaway nugget: gotta make it "click" in the user's head that this is built just for them.

drakonka 2 years ago | |

I had a similar impression. It looks very polished and smooth, but also a little overwhelming and "too much". _But_ my first thought was that I just am not the target audience because after years of amateur lifting I've realized all I really want is a rep/set/weight tracker, and this does not strive to be that. For me, anything more complex that tries to tie different parts of the fitness "experience" into one product ends up being a distraction. It takes focus from the thing that really matters to me: the lifting part. This seems like maybe a better app for beginners who just want to try different things with more guidance on the program and movements.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Great feedback!

A lot of the core UI/UX has been built around training to hit specific targets/splits for metabolic conditioning workouts, analyze those splits, etc. In other words, a _really_ fancy stopwatch that can do some analysis.

The app also supports weightlifting, endurance, and a broad interpretation of "constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement", but there's plenty to do there to improve the experience.

I've been thinking about the idea of making the scope of the UI/UX more narrow and focused on certain types of workouts, and I still am thinking about it. It's something I might try in the weeks ahead to see if "less = more" for a more focused ideal customer profile.

There's a good case to be made that the app is trying to do too many things for too many people right now : /

cloudking 2 years ago | |

What is the link?

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

https://strongest.app

Jemaclus 2 years ago |

I'm very concerned that as a solo founder you've put this much effort, money, and time into something that doesn't have PMF. Validating ideas is basically the first step of a business, and if you can't validate demand and secure PMF, then it doesn't really matter how much money or time you put into the project.

Real talk: it's entirely possible that you've wasted $1MM on a product that nobody wants.

But given that you have an app that works, and given that you built the app for yourself first, I think it's fair to assume there are other people out there that are like you and would find this app useful. With that in mind, I think the absolute right thing to do is try and identify your target demographic, market the hell out of it (as cheaply as possible) to specifically those people, and get some recurring revenue to subsidize the costs as you expand from there.

Any work you're doing now is basically unvalidated work. You have no idea if people will pay for it, if people even want it, or if they are turning off users. You don't know what price point makes sense.

You need to get some humans in the mix and find out whether your product is viable and whether people will use it. Once you get that validation, you'll have more of a direction to head that will satisfy actual prospective customers, which you can then hopefully convert into paying users.

I wish you the best of luck and I'll be looking out for your app, as I'm also a bit obsessed with fitness. Good luck!

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Preach! :)

I appreciate the thoughtfulness + candor of the reply, and I think you are right about these things. This is the kind of "real talk" that I need!

Sounds like that's a +1 for "go into code freeze, market it on the cheap, and don't invest more into product dev until there are some paying users"?

If that doesn't pan out after a reasonable effort, I'll have to start looking at options for liquidation or open sourcing it.

simne 2 years ago |

Greetings from Ukraine, EUROPEAN country at war.

Though, we are in trouble now, but even at best times, we have so little wages, for $1M you could build OS in Ukraine, not just app.

Ukrainian developers, are among the best in the whole world, I think in top ten at technical skills.

For design Ukrainians are not so cool, but also good and much cheaper than other Europe or US.

And also we have powerful cinematography industry, with rich history, also very under-priced. So, good professional ad, or even AR/VR is also not a problem.

If you wish, we could talk about create remote command of Ukrainian developers.

simne 2 years ago | |

BTW, have you hear about Donetsk airport cyborgs?

codingdave 2 years ago |

This advice is about a million dollars too late, but... don't write a single line of code until you know who your audience is. Also, don't spend money on marketing until you know you have built the correct product.

At this point, all is not lost. But stop coding, start talking to people. Ask them what they do and do not like with what you have so far. Iterate and improve based on those conversations until people start giving you positive feedback, then and only then try to find more people to sign on. Once you have a decent initial audience who are all giving positive feedback... that is when you start marketing.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Wise words, and there are good takeaways for me here!

It's time to land this version of the product, freeze the code for a while (sans major bug fixes), and get some high fidelity 1:1s with (who I think) my audience is.

Thanks for taking the time to leave me this reply. I really do appreciate it!

simne 2 years ago |

Ok, nobody want to say real truth, so I will. Real startup must enroll new MVP at least once per two weeks, better if weekly, and try to sell and gather feedback.

This is not must be totally different each time, but must be large enough differences, for different people.

So good startup will make at least 50 tries for first year.

Sure, need good accounting/statistics to gather adequate data, but I don't think, this is what need to discuss.

omarfarooq 2 years ago |

What is the break down of how that $1M was spent? No offense intended to you, but I'd have quoted $50K for the build out of the iOS app and the Watch companion app.

Curious how you spent that money?

altdataseller 2 years ago |

As someone who spent close to $100k of his own money building a diet/fitness app that had to shutdown, I think I can add some constructive feedback.

The comments on the product being a vitamin and not differentiating enough are all correct. The messaging is vague as well.

Here’s the thing about the fitness industry: it’s incredibly saturated and fickle. There might not even be a way to differentiate yourself in this space. After all, it’s one of the most popular niches that entrepreneurs try to tackle. In addition, even if you find a good niche, it’s hard to keep those users, because people are just lazy by nature. So you’re always going to be facing the challenge of getting new users every single day to replace the ones that left.

There has not been many successful fitness startups recently. The one that got their marketing incredibly right years ago was Fitocracy, which built a community of millions of users. Yet even they inevitably failed and sold for peanuts to a PE firm.

As for my startup, I literally spent 1/2 of my time marketing before I even had a product. I built a list of 5000 users and emailed them when I launched. I actually had lots of buzz and signups in the first few weeks but it all died up because the churn is so bad in fitness. And it was hard to get writers/media to write about my startup because the concept wasn’t as new as it was in the beginning.

So there you have it. If a startup like Fitocracy got their product ANd marketing down pat and still “failed” (Dick, Wang, Cockem, correct me if I’m wrong and yes those are the actual last names of the team lol) what does that mean for you?

Just some inconvenient truths. I wish I could be more optimistic. If you want to learn more about my startup and what I did to market it, email me at ritagrohowski at geeeeeeeemail :)

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

This is awesome feedback, and it's intuitively aligned to what I now know to be true about this space. (Alas...)

So many great points in here that I can't respond back in appreciation to all of them, but this one in particular is something that I articulated to a friend just last week:

> There has not been many successful fitness startups recently

Seems like there's a lot to learn and reflect on there!

I very much came at all of this from the product side of things (with gusto and confidence!), and it's only recently (perhaps far too late), that I am truly appreciating just how important the market is in business. (Sounds sooooo obvious in retrospect to say that, I know!)

I remember a phrase I heard a while back to startup tech founders that said something to the effect of "be sure you are working in fast moving water", which just makes so much sense...

And then there's Buffet + Munger's bias for betting on the market (vs founder)...

To say the last, I've at least scratched the surface of appreciating the power of the market in startups + PMF.

max_ 2 years ago |

1. Set up a features for your 1,000 true fans. [0]

2. Reduce as much onboarding friction as possible. Prefer passwordless login i.e Phone, OAuth as compared to "username" & "password" combinations. People have enough passwords to remember. Read "Alchemy" by Rory Sutherland.

3. Promote the app via Fitness oriented localities, Gyms, Fitness YouTubers, Running Clubs, Athletes (people serious about playing sports both professional & amateur). Read "The Formula" by Albert Laszlo

4. This is assuming that your app has any actual value it offers. If your app actually offers any value then achieving PMF is simply a Marketing/UX and distribution problem. 2 & 3 should help you with Marketing/UX & Distribution strategies.

5. Get on Android please it's 70% of the smartphone market share.

[0]: https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

That's awesome advice, thank you!

You are sharing some concepts and ideas I've been digesting, so that's encouraging.

> This is assuming that your app has any actual value it offers. If your app actually offers any value then achieving PMF is simply a Marketing/UX and distribution problem

I like that. Simple, clear, and actionable. Writing it on a post-it now :)

howon92 2 years ago |

> In general, I'm leaning towards a strategy where I freeze the product for a while and put 99% of the time + money + energy into marketing for purposes of finding PMF.

Have you looked into cohort retention of your users? If your users continue using your app, then I'd say keep going. Otherwise, there's no point in spending effort in marketing IMO.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Good thought! I haven't been rigorous about this yet, and that sounds like a tactical + practical next step. Anecdotally, I think I am currently churning most of the users. Do you have any thoughts on how many users would be a minimum threshold for a legit cohort analysis?

bobaoboe 2 years ago |

I have a few questions about your Apple Watch & app product. First, have you considered also customers with other smart watches like Samsung, etc, on whatever platform that is, Droid or whatever, is this financial or are you exclusive to Apple products? A lot of customers might be into a fitness package bundle with a less expensive watch and ability to keep their phone.

Any recommendation for diet or eating patterns? Meal prep, AI snapshots of a plate of food with general analysis of calories? Body type specific workouts, mirror selfie analysis? Fat % measurement ability?

Can the Apple Watch determine when the individual is eating from motions? Predict digestion or time glucose levels with accuracy?

Anyways hope to hear more abt product

gsuuon 2 years ago |

I know nothing about this stuff, but as a bit of off-hand advice I'd guess leaning heavy into social media / influencers would be a good way to get traction for a fitness app. You could also organize local free workout events to help push the app.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

I think you're right. Starting to up the social media game right now on IG!

DarrenDev 2 years ago |

There's no pricing on the website that I can find.

Are you really saying that you spent years of work and $1m+ of your own money building something that you love but that has no income and no path to income?

A free app?

You're very articulate and the comments have been interesting to read, but it all feels a bit like these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folly

You need to go to your existing users and tell them that from next Monday the price is $x.

Unless you're independently wealthy and quite happy to continue building your perfect app and giving it away for free forever. In which case, carry on.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

To date, the most I've done is add a "nag screen paywall" in the app that presents a monthly subscription as an in app purchase. It's not enforced (yet), so it's more of an "optional" thing as crazy as that sounds -- but you're right: gotta start enforcing that, and soon.

FWIW, over the months, I've rationalized not enforcing it because I tell myself, "Need to get a small quorum of active users first, because the monetization won't really matter or won't add up till much until then...I need to find some signal from users and don't want to obstruct yet (yet)."

And even as I type that, I sort of believe it, but at the same time, I know it's not the best way.

So yeah, it's essentially free right now for the small number of users who use it. I'll probably learn something important if I enforce the paywall on that small number of users.

DarrenDev 2 years ago | | |

> I need to find some signal from users

The clearest and most unambiguous signal from users is "I will pay you money for this" or "I will not pay you money for this."

cssanchez 2 years ago |

As an unfit person who doesn't work out, I was considering getting the Mad Muscles app because I got a ton of ads for it and it seemed to fit me well. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but if you're looking for users like me, I suggest taking ideas from them because at a glance your apps seem very similar and I found their sales pitch very good.

As a tech consultant who dreams of quitting to pursue my own app business venture, you've opened my eyes a bit to the kind of pain that awaits me. I think you went way overkill IMO, but you did it, which is what counts in the end.

Congrats on developing your app! I'll try it out sometime and give you more feedback.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

That's the second time I've heard about Mad Muscles just this week. I will definitely check it out. Framing a compelling offer is a gap I definitely need to fill, and I appreciate the pointer!

> ...but you did it, which is what counts in the end.

I can honestly say that I've come to truly believe that entrepreneurism is the ultimate spiritual journey -- at least it has been for me.

No matter how this chapter of my life ends, I like the person I am today 10,000% more than the person I was when I started, and I don't know that I could ever put a price on that.

In a post on another platform last week, I wrote something to the following effect: "entrepreneurism will burn off the mask that you're wearing and strip you down to the core" -- and I mean that in the best possible way.

When you are ready to build your app (and slay a few dragons along the way!), I'll be happy to be a resource to you however I can if you want to learn from any of my experiences.

tikkun 2 years ago |

What's your financial standing? Are you doing this for fun and you already have enough assets to live on, or does this need to work financially?

If it needs to work, I think pausing development and focusing only on marketing, as you say, seems like a good path. And I'd try and do "high fidelity" marketing rather than low fidelity - e.g. approach people in person at the cafe at a gym or after their workout, rather than sending ads or emails into the void where you don't know what lands.

I'll note that it's kind of wild to have invested $1mm without a seemingly clear plan for distribution, but, it seems that you're taking steps to address that now at least.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Financially, I don't need the app to produce income to keep my life on track...but the opportunity cost of continuing to sink so much time + life force into it is substantial (even in comparison to sunk costs), and that's one of the factors I'm increasingly thinking about.

I really like the idea of doubling down on getting high-quality interactive 1:1 feedback like you suggested, and that is something I can easily do on a daily basis to build more signal about how to dial in PMF in an intentional way.

I heard a quote once (Justin Kan, I think) that went something like this: first time founders focus on product; second time founders focus on distribution.

I might just be the extreme version of that quote ;)

smarri 2 years ago |

I think it looks good, certainly polished and professional and good brand name. I'd focus on sales and distribution and less now on building (of course build based on what your customers are saying they need). Can you team up with gyms and personal trainers, or social running/lifting/ other exercise groups. I'd just start giving them a call, emailing, or showing up. I've certainly tried to sell products that were waaaaay less finished than what you have now. Good luck!

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Thanks! Good thoughts here...

I've considered 3 models:

1 - Standard B2C - Basically, what's out there now. Try to go after end users directly

2 - B2B2C(-ish) - Basically, what you're suggesting, go after coaches/trainers with clients and work something out so that they can deliver their programs through the app, collect info about compliance to the program, etc. To your point, it definitely seems like there could be something here, and I need to lean into this more.

3 - Whitelabeled Solutions - As I look forward, I'm also now considering the possibility of an approach of cloning the app, rebranding it, updating its content, making minor tweaks, and licensing it to 3rd parties who want their own fitness app. (Maybe a fixed license, but probably a rev share.)

I haven't really made any headway on 2 + 3, but I'm increasingly thinking about them.

shp0ngle 2 years ago |

This seems like app for CrossFit that cannot legally use the name "CrossFit".

I like it, I used to do CrossFit but now all gyms are too far for me (and too expensive).

Do I _need_ apple watch though? I have just an iPhone.

edit: although most people that are into CrossFit will just go to a CrossFit gym...

edit2: and thinking about it more, I am not sure what will other "normal" gym people think when I do the AMRAP thing and jump around gym. Hm.

mdfk 2 years ago |

I've just checked your app and it's not even ranked for "workout tracker", " gym logger" etc. You're losing a lot of organic visibility from the App Store. If I were you I'd look into an experienced ASO specialist to level up your app store game, for example, @nickjsheriff (Twitter).

Also, $80-120/h for the iOS dev hour is a lot, I assume you hire in the US?

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

This is a REALLY GOOD point of feedback. I have done literally nothing for ASO, and what you are saying reflects the reality that I don't see many organic downloads in the App Store. Definitely going to look into this!

On the iOS dev hours: yes, the $120 has been more aligned to seasoned talent with U.S. rates and the $80 has been more aligned to talent outside the U.S.

mdfk 2 years ago | | |

I'm a mobile dev and I do ASO, I'm open to chat and show you on what metrics you need to look at in the app store connect. Let me know if you're up for it. I tried to DM on Twitter but your DMs are off

bjacobt 2 years ago |

I find going to conferences helpful. I went to a few and found potential customers and more importantly other businesses that became new sales channels.

Depending on your personality you may or may not want to setup a booth. I’m a technical founder and not comfortable approaching people, so having a booth and people wanting to find out more about my SaaS helped establish new relationships and sales.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Definitely. I'm also more a technical founder profile than not, and it takes real work for me to try to "sell", which is ironic, right? I (obviously) love this app, but to try and actively "sell" it someone directly. Gasp.

I've been making headway on that front too, though. A lot of content Alex Hormozi has been producing on sales + lead-gen has been really helpful to me on both a tactical level as well as a mindset level about these sorts of things.

This gets back to what I consider to be part of the "spiritual" side of the entreprenurial journey: facing my fears, slaying some dragons, etc.

robtaylor 2 years ago |

"there's a small trickle of users"

"take a holiday break to freshen my perspective"

Due to A do B now, as it will be easier than if you have lots of active users to support and is an opportunity.

The refresh might give you some distance to come to answers/direction etc.

Look after you first :)

Good luck!

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Amen! Thank for that encouragement. I think you are right. I need to be calculated and disciplined about it. A short-break would do me some good, and I'm sure my family would agree :)

aristofun 2 years ago |

All busieness and marketing advice aside, let me tell you the brutal truth from an average iPhone user, poor gym enthisiast and former b2c product manager perspective.

Your app looks like a weak vitamin, not a pain killer.

Looking at website, appstore screenshots and descriptions I got a relatively vague, generic and weak message "train smarter".

- What's in it for me?

- What exactly would I gain by wasting my time, focus and money on yet another AI gimmick?

- Who is this app made for exactly (professional athletes, lazy bums like me, weight loss enthusiasts, amateur bodybuilders, powerlifters, those dreaming of winning iron man...)?

This is what b2c PMF is about - about the fit (the click) in user's head.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

This is 100% valid feedback, and I appreciate that you took the time to share it. I'm at that point, where I need some "brutal truth" to help me navigate the next few steps...

I definitely need to update the language on the site to be a lot more precise and clear about these questions you've raised.

> This is what b2c PMF is about - about the fit (the click) in user's head.

That's a great takeaway nugget: gotta make it "click" in the user's head that this is built just for them.

drakonka 2 years ago | |

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Great feedback!

The app also supports weightlifting, endurance, and a broad interpretation of "constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement", but there's plenty to do there to improve the experience.

There's a good case to be made that the app is trying to do too many things for too many people right now : /

cloudking 2 years ago | |

What is the link?

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

https://strongest.app

rawgabbit 2 years ago | | |

As non athlete with dubious fitness, the website does not speak to me. Like most sedentary Americans, I want to get fit but I have no fitness goals because I have no idea what to do.

The marketing seems to assume your customer are knowledgeable athletes who want an app to track their performance. I would introduce two more user personas. The first is the type whose New Year resolution is either to lose weight or build stamina. Your app should suggest a program like a personal fitness trainer, show them what to do, and track their progress and give them encouragement when they achieve some milestone. The second user has a specific goal but need help coming up with a realistic training plan For example, they want to pass the new Army fitness standards.

https://armypubs.army.mil/pub/eforms/DR_a/ARN35762-DA_FORM_7...

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Great thoughts here! I think you're right.

You wouldn't know it from the website (working on that!), but the app experience is more for "fit people who want to optimize their fitness and like to analyze their training data".

It's just been a tough nut to crack to find the right way to express that so far, but to the point of this thread and all of this dialogue, that's also key to the unlock.

I'm a former military guy myself, and I've been thinking about cloning + rebranding a version of the app that's super specific to "Training for military fitness tests". The more I think about that, the more I think there really might be something there.

drakonka 2 years ago | | |

I'm just a coder who lifts and _not_ a marketing or ideation genius, but at first read that sounds like a really good idea.

Reasoning:

It _seems_ like if you make the programs legitimately useful and look reputable, not only would you get the people looking to pass a test in the actual military (which may be relatively few? I have no idea), but I bet you'd _also_ attract a ton of CrossFit or other fitness buffs who just want that "authentic" functional training feel: "Look at me according to this app used by legit military trainees I'm so fit I can be in the MilitaryBranchX!"

Jemaclus 2 years ago |

Real talk: it's entirely possible that you've wasted $1MM on a product that nobody wants.

I wish you the best of luck and I'll be looking out for your app, as I'm also a bit obsessed with fitness. Good luck!

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Preach! :)

I appreciate the thoughtfulness + candor of the reply, and I think you are right about these things. This is the kind of "real talk" that I need!

Sounds like that's a +1 for "go into code freeze, market it on the cheap, and don't invest more into product dev until there are some paying users"?

If that doesn't pan out after a reasonable effort, I'll have to start looking at options for liquidation or open sourcing it.

simne 2 years ago |

Greetings from Ukraine, EUROPEAN country at war.

Though, we are in trouble now, but even at best times, we have so little wages, for $1M you could build OS in Ukraine, not just app.

Ukrainian developers, are among the best in the whole world, I think in top ten at technical skills.

For design Ukrainians are not so cool, but also good and much cheaper than other Europe or US.

And also we have powerful cinematography industry, with rich history, also very under-priced. So, good professional ad, or even AR/VR is also not a problem.

If you wish, we could talk about create remote command of Ukrainian developers.

simne 2 years ago | |

BTW, have you hear about Donetsk airport cyborgs?

codingdave 2 years ago |

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Wise words, and there are good takeaways for me here!

It's time to land this version of the product, freeze the code for a while (sans major bug fixes), and get some high fidelity 1:1s with (who I think) my audience is.

Thanks for taking the time to leave me this reply. I really do appreciate it!

simne 2 years ago |

Ok, nobody want to say real truth, so I will. Real startup must enroll new MVP at least once per two weeks, better if weekly, and try to sell and gather feedback.

This is not must be totally different each time, but must be large enough differences, for different people.

So good startup will make at least 50 tries for first year.

Sure, need good accounting/statistics to gather adequate data, but I don't think, this is what need to discuss.

omarfarooq 2 years ago |

What is the break down of how that $1M was spent? No offense intended to you, but I'd have quoted $50K for the build out of the iOS app and the Watch companion app.

Curious how you spent that money?

altdataseller 2 years ago |

As someone who spent close to $100k of his own money building a diet/fitness app that had to shutdown, I think I can add some constructive feedback.

The comments on the product being a vitamin and not differentiating enough are all correct. The messaging is vague as well.

Just some inconvenient truths. I wish I could be more optimistic. If you want to learn more about my startup and what I did to market it, email me at ritagrohowski at geeeeeeeemail :)

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

This is awesome feedback, and it's intuitively aligned to what I now know to be true about this space. (Alas...)

So many great points in here that I can't respond back in appreciation to all of them, but this one in particular is something that I articulated to a friend just last week:

> There has not been many successful fitness startups recently

Seems like there's a lot to learn and reflect on there!

I remember a phrase I heard a while back to startup tech founders that said something to the effect of "be sure you are working in fast moving water", which just makes so much sense...

And then there's Buffet + Munger's bias for betting on the market (vs founder)...

To say the last, I've at least scratched the surface of appreciating the power of the market in startups + PMF.

max_ 2 years ago |

1. Set up a features for your 1,000 true fans. [0]

5. Get on Android please it's 70% of the smartphone market share.

[0]: https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

That's awesome advice, thank you!

You are sharing some concepts and ideas I've been digesting, so that's encouraging.

> This is assuming that your app has any actual value it offers. If your app actually offers any value then achieving PMF is simply a Marketing/UX and distribution problem

I like that. Simple, clear, and actionable. Writing it on a post-it now :)

howon92 2 years ago |

> In general, I'm leaning towards a strategy where I freeze the product for a while and put 99% of the time + money + energy into marketing for purposes of finding PMF.

Have you looked into cohort retention of your users? If your users continue using your app, then I'd say keep going. Otherwise, there's no point in spending effort in marketing IMO.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

bobaoboe 2 years ago |

Can the Apple Watch determine when the individual is eating from motions? Predict digestion or time glucose levels with accuracy?

Anyways hope to hear more abt product

gsuuon 2 years ago |

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

I think you're right. Starting to up the social media game right now on IG!

DarrenDev 2 years ago |

There's no pricing on the website that I can find.

Are you really saying that you spent years of work and $1m+ of your own money building something that you love but that has no income and no path to income?

A free app?

You're very articulate and the comments have been interesting to read, but it all feels a bit like these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folly

You need to go to your existing users and tell them that from next Monday the price is $x.

Unless you're independently wealthy and quite happy to continue building your perfect app and giving it away for free forever. In which case, carry on.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

And even as I type that, I sort of believe it, but at the same time, I know it's not the best way.

So yeah, it's essentially free right now for the small number of users who use it. I'll probably learn something important if I enforce the paywall on that small number of users.

DarrenDev 2 years ago | | |

> I need to find some signal from users

The clearest and most unambiguous signal from users is "I will pay you money for this" or "I will not pay you money for this."

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

100% -- and the comments on this post have really helped me to find some more clarity and gain confidence in taking some more aggressive next steps in that direction!

cssanchez 2 years ago |

Congrats on developing your app! I'll try it out sometime and give you more feedback.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

That's the second time I've heard about Mad Muscles just this week. I will definitely check it out. Framing a compelling offer is a gap I definitely need to fill, and I appreciate the pointer!

> ...but you did it, which is what counts in the end.

I can honestly say that I've come to truly believe that entrepreneurism is the ultimate spiritual journey -- at least it has been for me.

No matter how this chapter of my life ends, I like the person I am today 10,000% more than the person I was when I started, and I don't know that I could ever put a price on that.

When you are ready to build your app (and slay a few dragons along the way!), I'll be happy to be a resource to you however I can if you want to learn from any of my experiences.

tikkun 2 years ago |

What's your financial standing? Are you doing this for fun and you already have enough assets to live on, or does this need to work financially?

I'll note that it's kind of wild to have invested $1mm without a seemingly clear plan for distribution, but, it seems that you're taking steps to address that now at least.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

I heard a quote once (Justin Kan, I think) that went something like this: first time founders focus on product; second time founders focus on distribution.

I might just be the extreme version of that quote ;)

smarri 2 years ago |

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Thanks! Good thoughts here...

I've considered 3 models:

1 - Standard B2C - Basically, what's out there now. Try to go after end users directly

I haven't really made any headway on 2 + 3, but I'm increasingly thinking about them.

shp0ngle 2 years ago |

This seems like app for CrossFit that cannot legally use the name "CrossFit".

I like it, I used to do CrossFit but now all gyms are too far for me (and too expensive).

Do I _need_ apple watch though? I have just an iPhone.

edit: although most people that are into CrossFit will just go to a CrossFit gym...

edit2: and thinking about it more, I am not sure what will other "normal" gym people think when I do the AMRAP thing and jump around gym. Hm.

mdfk 2 years ago |

Also, $80-120/h for the iOS dev hour is a lot, I assume you hire in the US?

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

On the iOS dev hours: yes, the $120 has been more aligned to seasoned talent with U.S. rates and the $80 has been more aligned to talent outside the U.S.

mdfk 2 years ago | | |

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Awesome, thanks for offering. Definitely up for it. An easy way to reach me is my username at gmail.

bjacobt 2 years ago |

I find going to conferences helpful. I went to a few and found potential customers and more importantly other businesses that became new sales channels.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

This gets back to what I consider to be part of the "spiritual" side of the entreprenurial journey: facing my fears, slaying some dragons, etc.

robtaylor 2 years ago |

"there's a small trickle of users"

"take a holiday break to freshen my perspective"

Due to A do B now, as it will be easier than if you have lots of active users to support and is an opportunity.

The refresh might give you some distance to come to answers/direction etc.

Look after you first :)

Good luck!

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Amen! Thank for that encouragement. I think you are right. I need to be calculated and disciplined about it. A short-break would do me some good, and I'm sure my family would agree :)

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Over the course of a few years, I've easily spent more than $500k on the iOS + watchOS engineering alone. (Keep in mind that I started from a clean slate, there have been multiple iterations of UI/UX evolution, lots of iOS and 3rd party integrations to implement and troubleshoot, etc. (More on that below.)

To round out the figures, let's ballpark another $300-$350k on server + platform engineering, $80k on media + data + content acquisition, and then the inescapable overhead of the business itself (accounting, legal, etc.)

Contract rates I'm used to paying for solid iOS engineers have been anywhere in the range of $80-$120 per hour (big discrepancy based on where they're based and whether or not I'm working direct or through an agency), so $50k would have bought me about 10 weeks of sustained effort on the high end of that range. That's probably about where I was at when we finished the first working proof of concept with a designer + iOS developer.

Since then, for better or for worse, I can confidently say that I've spent more than another $50k just on "iOS debugging time". Probably more.

Lots of things to build out just in iOS land itself that can be more time consuming than they first seem for anyone who is interested:

- HealthKit integration - Location Services integration - WorkoutKit integration - WatchKit integration and implementing your own bidirectional comms between iOS and watchOS - Multiple AWS integrations (namely, Cognito and S3 but there are various Lambdas gluing things together and many, many more bits and pieces like CloudFront, Route53, etc.) - Custom in-app camera (and large file off loading to the cloud) - APNs - async I/O to/from our own server APIs

And more, those are just the easy ones to remember :)

It's been one hell of an adventure in iOS engineering land to say the least, and we haven't even begun to talk about things on the server side like data modeling. There's some really interesting stuff there as well, but that's for another thread ;)

omarfarooq 2 years ago | | |

I appreciate the depthful reply. My quote was based on a cursory glance, I'm sure there is much more involved with a detailed spec sheet, as you pointed out.

Seems like you have the product figured out and just need to focus iterating on marketing. I'm actually in a similar position to you but having spent $400K instead of $1M.

I'd like to ask you, what were some factors that propelled you to self rationalize your method of going to market, that in hindsight turned out to be detrimental? Or in other words, what would you do if you were to go back in time and start over? Look, I know that's a painful question to answer since we can't turn back time, but I am asking it for the sake of educating others and for the potential benefits that stem from self reflection.

Appreciate your opening up on this. Thank you.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

It's all good, and I'm genuinely enjoying these interactions here on HN. Literally nothing to lose and everything to gain from the dialogue, and I do help it's of some benefit to others :)

Part of how I have rationalized my journey so far is that I have been building an app that I myself use almost every day, I genuinely enjoy the building products and working with my team, progress has been steady along the way, and I have unwittingly over-indexed on my own judgments as an "efficient proxy to the market".

I know that might sound crazy, but it's a bit like, "We're making progress, but it's not quite ready, so let's just keep building. I know this is good! We got this!"

In terms of more specific reflections and lessons learned so far, here are a few initial thoughts if I could start over again, knowing what I know now:

- Co-Founder: I would not do this over again without a co-founder with passion and expertise in for B2C product marketing. (Even to this day, I've never really had good access to someone who has successfully bootstrapped and monetized a non-trivial digital product app from scratch.) In addition to the moral support and general collaboration, this skill set would be complementary to my own. It would had the potential to be a great counterbalance in the overall approach to GTM and product strategy.

- Financial Accountability: I'd create some semi-formal accountability structures with "gating functions" for how/when funds could be spent on the product along the way. Conceptually, before taking on another 3-6 months of committed product work, make more aggressive contact with reality through user interviews. Much of the product evolution has been pretty fluid, organic, and linear based on small inputs along the way.

- Proxy Users: I'd recruit a small group of users (compensating them a small stipend if needed) just to stay active on the app (e.g. you're going to be working out anyway, so do it with the app a couple of times a week) and provide regular feedback about what they see that they like and don't like, what's confusing, frustrating, etc. Probably too much of the UI/UX has been dialed in from my own experiences, and there are some interactions that can be reframed to be more obviously valuable based on the input of others

- Likelihood of Success: I'd question whether the scope/complexity of what I set out to do as a solo founder with limited funds can really be achieved. For example, how likely is it that I as a solo founder can bootstrap a B2C consumer-grade iPhone + Apple Watch to profitability? And in what is considered by many a "crowded space". (It wouldn't be wrong IMHO to characterize a certain district of the app store as a 'wasteland of fitness apps'.) Should I be trying to bootstrap something this complex in this space at all? Or decrease the scope? Or consider a different financing approach?

- Resist Perfectionism: It might not be obvious, but keep in mind that I've been thinking about GTM a LOT. I just haven't been doing GTM to the extent that it now seems obvious I should have been. I have somehow been rationalizing that I just need to "build more" to get the product "more ready" before I start leaning into a space and set of activities I don't particularly enjoy and am somewhat uncomfortable with. (And instead, I've been continuing to do the things I am good at and comfortable with.)

- Less Isolation: And even as I itemize all of these things, I can't look back and think of any specific moments were I ever thought I was making an egregious mistake on any given day. Every day, I made what seemed like reasonable/good decisions with the best information I had at the time. Being less isolated and more integrated into a community of practice to share progress might have made a difference

Probably lots of other things I could say (and let's not forget there are lots of other draws on my time in life with family, etc.), but those are some initial thoughts that I can share.

If anyone bothered to read all of this, I hope it's of some help!

achempion 2 years ago | | |

Thank you for the insight on the development process. Tbh, it seems a very reasonable path for the app without any economic and time pressure to succeed, considering you now have the perfect app for yourself.

It's too early to jump to conclusions without proper marketing for the app and any revenue-related metrics gathered.

The issue with delayed marketing can be that the product is too large to make changes fast and run experiments. Removing features considering committed resources would also be a challenge.

Regarding the Proxy Users, I think the idea is that customers should pay for a solution that solves a problem, not vice versa. You can install a session recording feature, watch app interactions occasionally, and do interviews with paying users (or invite active users to your podcast).

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Great perspective here, I appreciate it!

I am very much still an optimist on the future of the app and my ability to monetize it.

As I synthesize much of this post and these comments, it's increasingly clear to me that I've just been operating too much in isolation, leaning more into what I know well (development) -vs- what I don't know as well (marketing in all its forms)

Now it's time to do some overcorrection and then step back and find the balance.

I very much intend to have a success story to post here one day as a new comment on this post about "how my startup barely dodged death but now I'm writing this update from the beach watching the monies flow" :)

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

Yup :)

The original inspiration for the app was when I was looking around the gym during one of the The Opens and listening to people 'strategize' about the workout. "Don't come out of the gate too hot", "Pace yourself", "Hit this many rounds/reps by this point on the clock", etc.

In other words, everyone was building a personalized "pacing plan", and it occurred to me that optimizing a plan to achieve a goal and delivering it through a digital experience was an idea I wanted to explore.

I've been a life long fitness junkie, and I really think that Greg Glassman's original blueprint for "quantifying fitness" as outlined in the CF-L1 Training Manual pretty much nails a winning formula for a lot of people. (e.g. the ones who are inclined to work out.)

The vast majority of the app experience itself (as well as a lot of the internal data architecture + software design that you'd never see or necessarily think about) is very much built around the idea of "workout prescriptions", "workout plans", "workout performances" and the "algebra" on those data structures that starts to quantify all of the splits.

You only need an iPhone to use the app, but the overall UX is a lot better (especially during a metcon) if you have a watch because you can just advance through the workout and track your splits with a tap on the wrist. IOW: start the workout on the phone, set the phone down, train, pick the phone back up later to get all of the analysis

This post and a lot of this dialogue has been TREMENDOUSLY helpful to me (both directionally and energetically) as I seek out a way to create a more focused experience in the app with a much more focused value prop (both in the app itself and in the marketing messages.)

Would very much welcome your (unvarnished) feedback if you decide to check it out and have any thoughts!

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | |

> although most people that are into CrossFit will just go to a CrossFit gym...

Yes, this is seems to be the case for the most part, though I'm still exploring the "garage gym athlete" community. Turns out there are lots of garage gyms and a decent number of garage gyms have been outfitted by people who prefer/need to train at home, "ex-CrossFitters", etc. I think there's something here, but I don't have it fully quantified yet.

> edit2: and thinking about it more, I am not sure what will other "normal" gym people think when I do the AMRAP thing and jump around gym. Hm.

Haha. Been there myself. I find that it's important to build a small station with everything at arms reach in a "normal gym" setting so that it doesn't get taken by others.

In either scenario, though, you will be an outlier...but that's not a bad thing :)

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

It's all good, and I'm genuinely enjoying these interactions here on HN. Literally nothing to lose and everything to gain from the dialogue, and I do help it's of some benefit to others :)

I know that might sound crazy, but it's a bit like, "We're making progress, but it's not quite ready, so let's just keep building. I know this is good! We got this!"

In terms of more specific reflections and lessons learned so far, here are a few initial thoughts if I could start over again, knowing what I know now:

Probably lots of other things I could say (and let's not forget there are lots of other draws on my time in life with family, etc.), but those are some initial thoughts that I can share.

If anyone bothered to read all of this, I hope it's of some help!

achempion 2 years ago | | |

It's too early to jump to conclusions without proper marketing for the app and any revenue-related metrics gathered.

The issue with delayed marketing can be that the product is too large to make changes fast and run experiments. Removing features considering committed resources would also be a challenge.

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Great perspective here, I appreciate it!

I am very much still an optimist on the future of the app and my ability to monetize it.

Now it's time to do some overcorrection and then step back and find the balance.

rawgabbit 2 years ago | | |

As non athlete with dubious fitness, the website does not speak to me. Like most sedentary Americans, I want to get fit but I have no fitness goals because I have no idea what to do.

https://armypubs.army.mil/pub/eforms/DR_a/ARN35762-DA_FORM_7...

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Great thoughts here! I think you're right.

You wouldn't know it from the website (working on that!), but the app experience is more for "fit people who want to optimize their fitness and like to analyze their training data".

It's just been a tough nut to crack to find the right way to express that so far, but to the point of this thread and all of this dialogue, that's also key to the unlock.

drakonka 2 years ago | | |

I'm just a coder who lifts and _not_ a marketing or ideation genius, but at first read that sounds like a really good idea.

Reasoning:

ptwobrussell 2 years ago | | |

Definitely makes sense to me, too! There' a clear customer profile, it solves a specific problem, and I could reach this audience with an offering with relatively little time + expense.

I also think you're right that a lot of amateur fitness enthusiasts like to train with/to "mil specs" because of the connotations of badassery it portrays. Can't blame them... :)