That's a legitimately good use case for NFTs.

When you sell valuable physical objects that have a high risk of counterfeiting, the secure way is to associate a "digital twin" of the object that has verifiable provenance and this is exactly what NFTs as a technology are good at.

edit: Thanks to everyone that downvoted this to -4 despite the numerous good remarks in comment that spark a solely technical discussion on the topic. Please come over your hate.

Yup. If your father dies, and leaves you a Rolex, but does make a way to give you access to the keys to the nft, would the Rolex stop being authentic?

When we are talking about digital proof of ownership of physical goods, any solution that can fail synchronization of the record due to entirely foreseeable events like death, ownership disputes, etc is a failed solution.

Good remark. I think it is simpler to just use a public blockchain that having Rolex properly build "open" cloud services to do that and maintain it themselves over the long run.

I'm a security engineer and I'm not sure I'm capable of keeping a private key secure for the long term.

Ok so you trust the dealer explicitly, and you are paying them each time to keep providence. What does the NFT buy you when you could just ask Rolex?

How do you "print" the association in the physical object? What would prevent this association to be faked?

Synchronized how? Confirmed by whom?

This has the same oracle problem that all these blockchain-for-X dreams do.

At first i thought this was a pretty well done satire, but after reading over it multiple times, i am not sure.

And it imo says more about the general state of discussion of crypto/nft, rather than about your comment specifically.

That's fair, and manufacturing and UX could very well be a challenge. But the technology does work

As a pure store of value, a few diamonds or a thin stack of 1000 swiss francs banknotes are more efficient. Expensive watches lose value if worn (with the exception, if it is still valid nowadays, of Rolexes), and customs officers can ask to check them (at least to catch fakes).

They are also fantastic ways of paying a bribe.

What was the verdict on this rock? Is there a lot of competition in the decorative rock market?

Ah yes, the beginner's rock

Rolex has been less secretive nowadays. Still no public tours, but some media types have been invited. https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/inside-rolex

IWC, Zenith and a few other Manufactures do offer tours. It is fairly representative of what Rolex does (on a bigger scale, with more vertical integration). Many other brands and suppliers open their doors every two years in La Chaux-de-fond: https://urbanisme-horloger.ch/biennale-du-patrimoine-horloge...

> how these luxury watches actually perform as watches (as opposed to their looks and swagger value)?

The entire point is looks and swagger value. You can’t ignore it. In terms of time keeping accuracy (ie. bring a watch) they get easily better by any quartz watch.

n of 1 study: the Submariner that I purchased 30 years ago required one maintenance visit during that period. Its accuracy certainly isn’t going to match something that’s talking to a time server but it’s better than the clock in my car which drifts forward by 2 minutes per month. But for a purely mechanical device it’s remarkable.

I never experienced a waiting list for LV. I can happily buy a Neverfull Tote bag online. If I order it today I have it on time for Christmas. Definitely not the Rolex experience of years long waiting list.

Maybe it's because I message the sales person ahead of time when I go to the store and indicate what I want to see so they get it in the store for me. That's not even possible with Rolex.

Bah. Especially for a veblen good where they can trivially institute huge price swings. This site (https://millenarywatches.com/rolex-markup/) claims Rolex has a 40% margin.

I suppose it only works if you can make a deal with the authorized seller to split the online proceeds.

Good point. You could probably charge a premium for convenience, but would be hard to make it worth it.

How's this for a hot take:

Any watch over 38mm is meant to attract attention to itself first, and look proportional on a large wrist second.

hypergamy. (particularly male) humans have been in a status conscious rate race since caveman days, it's built in and not likely to change. consciously avoiding it is just an alternate strategy in the same game, like the "wears sneakers with a tux" guy.

I wish the men around me didn't choose cars for how much noise they make, I live on a somewhat busy street.

The internet has just ruined niche culture a bit in my opinion.

I used to be harder to find people in to a specific sub-culture but now it is easy to find a subeditor or whatever. They just feed off each other until they are insufferable.

Beer, mechanical keyboards, watches, whatever.

> Cumulative “rate” of inflation is not a thing.

I copied the words from here: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Good nitpick.

I wear triples (pretty much daily) and they are by far the most comfortable shoe I've ever worn. Got them on sale for $600CAD in 2019 and they're still going strong today, I think I can probably get another 4/5 years out of them. I'm kinda embarrassed, but honestly, I recommend them, they're a great shoe.

Wow, those are awful looking.

Regardless of what the other poster says about comfort, those are almost peak, "emperor's new clothes" fashion.

To some degree, but if something is 100$ worth of parts and 500$ worth of labor it's hard to argue it's actually intrinsically worth 30000$, even if that's what you're willing to pay.

Not on hacker news! Herre the group think only allows for things that everyone agrees on and some are completely non-grata, like BTC, which none, supposedly, like. Let me translate, i have tried to evoke the same argument and "lost" saying the value is what we assign to anything (BTC)

United States:

Q: One of my suppliers marks its products with a Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price (MSRP). Do I have to charge this price?

A: The key word is "suggested." A dealer is free to set the retail price of the products it sells. A dealer can set the price at the MSRP or at a different price, as long as the dealer comes to that decision on its own. However, the manufacturer can decide not to use distributors that do not adhere to its MSRP.

https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...

Australia:

It's illegal for suppliers to impose minimum prices for the resale of their goods or services.

For example, suppliers must not:

• set minimum prices in formal policies or agreements offer retailers a discount if they sell at or above a minimum price

• refuse to supply retailers that sell below a minimum price

• punish retailers for selling below a set price, for example, by taking away a discount or sending a warning.

https://www.accc.gov.au/business/competition-and-exemptions/...

EU/UK:

Generally speaking, suppliers are entitled to recommend retail prices to their suppliers, but any attempt to restrict the price at which products are sold will constitute vertical price-fixing, which is in breach of EU law

https://www.howatavraamsolicitors.co.uk/know-illegal-supplie...

As the article mentions, the court did allow that practice:

"The watchmaker successfully defended its practice of enforcing recommended retail prices for its retailers, with the authority accepting that preventing the sale of fake Rolex watches and grey market trading are legitimate commercial aims."

but for the online-selling bit:

"The French authority rejected a defence from Rolex’s lawyers that restrictions are needed to prevent counterfeiting and parallel trade in its watches."

> The entire concept of a "beginner" watch that costs $15,000 or thereabouts is such obvious gatekeeping.

A beginner watch is a Seiko SKX (now the 5 line) at US$200, one can also do Hamilton field watches, Longines, Stowa, Nomos, Omega or IWC, etc for a few hundred to a few thousand.

Watch Youtubers like The Urban Gentry, Teddy Baldassarre, etc, cover (and own) watches from all sort of price levels (as do folks in /r/Watches, where you'll see state of the collection (SOTC) posts that have Casio G-shocks).

Yeah that's where I lean. I don't think these dealers have a "right" to sell Rolex's. If they don't like the terms set forth by Rolex, don't sell them.

And that's what we did. I was working for a Rolex AD for about 10 years, and they were an AD for decades. One day they got fed up with the 'rules' and dropped their AD status and started selling Rolex on the "secondary" market. These were never worn watches in original boxes and papers and in no way different than the watch we sold as an AD. Just second-hand. We suddenly had access to the inventory that our customers wanted when they wanted it, and told Rolex to get stuffed.

And yes, watching objectively well off people argue about luxury items as if it's important is always entertaining to me.

Unless there’s some evidence that the legal system (which isn’t responsible for homelessness) is enforcing business rules instead of helping starving, cold children… then that’s a false dichotomy.

A Veblen good means the demand increases when the price increases. ROI doesn't factor in.

Nobody would buy 100k of adsense ads if they didn't return more than 100k in revenue. With a Veblen good, the price tag is the point.

It’s strange to know some people think that way, but I’ve never experienced a community where someone would get more respect for having a Rolex. It’s such a bizarre idea - who cares

Fascinating analogy. While it might not apply to adsense, I think adverts in high-profile slots like the Super Bowl might well have signaling facets much like Veblen goods (for companies).

You can't just expand willy-nilly. It takes tons of investment, money, and you need to find a labor force. And what happens if demand softens (like it's doing at this very moment)? Then you're stuck with a bunch of extra capacity doing nothing.

An element of the decision may also be around quality control. Especially if a lot of the work is highly skilled but still manual human labour.

They are expending manufacturing as much as they can. The constraint is really the workforce.

Sounds like car people. It doesn't really cross your mind what elitists think of your cheap Mustang when you're stacking the neighbor girls on top of each other in the back though.

Essentially the same thought here, as I always thought of it as the "actually rich" versus the "nouveau riche."

I promise I mean this question honestly and not sarcastic.

But if having a rolex means you have some money but nothing to say... What type of watch do real watch people buy? And what interesting thing are they saying through their purchase?

Apple is the Apple of the watch world. Apple sold 54m watches last year, Rolex an estimated 1m.

Apple sells more watches than every other luxury watch brand combined.

I would argue that they used to be. Back in the 70s a Rolex was seen and marketed as more of a “tool watch” than a luxury item.

Huh? 75% of the people I know has an Apple device. Stop fooling yourself.

You two should get a room. I mean, a club. Epitome is quite a strong word in an industry with so many greats.

I'm going to offer a guess: say you're a wealthy person (whatever that word means to you) and you want a social filter to keep you from interacting with people who have less wealth. One way to do that is to buy luxury goods and only entertain conversations, dates, etc with people who do. most people would say that's inherently shallow, but say you were super rich, think of how hard it would be to find people to go on trips or activities with. How many times are you going to be met with "oh I can't afford it/can't get the time off work/etc" ? even being polite, that causes friction between friendships. The watch alone isn't going to do it, but taken with the bigger picture, it's at least a hint that you are of some minimum economic status and I imagine some people find that useful.

Interesting; I'd expect you to meet more of those people in those circles actually. Perhaps it's generational?

That doesn't make any sense... The only reasons why you would think they are not restricting supply would be if demand varies randomly widely or if the people planning production and/or purchasing are incompetent.

Imainge having so much money that it does not matter. that is the targeted customer in mind.

Stuff like this:

https://atelierdegriff.com/2021/02/14/breaking-major-rolex-a...

I take it you are not into watches.

Watches, cars, ties, and all other kinds of mens' fashion accessories are all the same, it's about communicating who you are through what you wear. Women know a lot about this because it's pretty much mandatory to adopt that attitude about women's clothing. High-end menswear is the same: if you're going to spend the money, spend it on something that fits you.

By the way, nobody who cares about watches will ding you (in terms of social status) for not wearing a watch or wearing a non-fashion watch like an apple watch or a swatch. If you're not into it, you don't have to partake.

I think the GP's point is that if one feels the need to use a status symbol, they're already pretending to be someone they aren't.

Of course a status symbol works to a large extent, otherwise people wouldn't be spending money on them.

I'm nowhere near the social circles of "old money", but I'd imagine they're more amused with seeing people trying too hard to push themselves into upper society, than being insecure about their own status. I mean, I don't have to be upper class to find this behavior somewhat comical.

if you're after a good time piece, the cheapest Casio F-91W watches are actually better at keeping time than any mechanical watch. I had a few growing up, the straps broke before anything else, and replacing the whole unit was cheaper than getting a "proper" watch serviced.

Not to mention a Rolex appreciate in price as time passes.

Apple watch lose value and become e-waste.

You’re partly right. I own two luxury watches (worth about $10,000 total). One of them is a Rolex. I wear one every day and yes I use it many times a day to look at the time because it’s less annoying than looking at my phone. Of course, a $10 quartz watch keeps time better. I bought these because I like what they look like, owning nice things is enjoyable, I want to support craftsmanship, and they hold value well. They’re not really a status symbol because 99% of people I interact with don’t know or care anything about watches. I would definitely be upset if they stopped being able to keep time because then I wouldn’t be able to wear them.

First time I've heard the No True Rich Man argument. I will have to keep that one in the back pocket. Truly an innovative way to spin luxury spending as a virtue.

Rolex have innovated consistently with their movements and oyster cases, and their manufacturing quality is amazing. Their business practices are questionable though, as the article highlights. I can walk into an AD today and walk out with a Grand Seiko Snowflake. Contrast this with a Rolex AD who will put me on a “waiting list”, even though I’ve purchased from them before and own a few Rolex watches.

Okay, call them unnecessary status symbols for people to show their wealth. See also fancy cars, gaudy diamond rings. They are kind of in that category.

Even the most highly respected brands like Patek are stupendously tacky. Just look at their 2023 lineup: https://www.patek.com/en/collection/new-models-2023

Everything about Rolex is average at best and overpriced mass Produced machine watches at worst.

On the other hand, if you had taken 10% of that $5000 and spent them on an Apple Watch[0] and put the other 90% into Apple shares, you'd have bought fractionally over 346 shares in 2011 which would have been worth $48,804 in 2021.

[0] keeping the money aside for when the watches were actually released, which wasn't 2011.

The article is about rolexes gaining value over a particular decade. The idea that those 10 years will just happen again (that it's not in a bubble and this is sustainable) is a foolish gamble imo. Basically everyone pushing this is an SEO blog for some watch merchant, keep that in mind as well.

Ahem. I agree.

Idk, if you decide you want a mechanical dive watch, just by the stats, a Sub Date is under 13mm thick, +2/-2 accuracy, made of hard materials, ceramic, sapphire, and steel alloy (no coating so it can be polished), price after purchase is only going to go up.

I don’t own a Rolex, don’t want to spend that much, invite the crime, or care about the status, but I really would like for Seiko (or another value brand) to step up and offer something comparable.

BOSE - Buy Other Sound Equipment

Yes, this is true, but almost no luxury watch is quartz (unless you count Seiko spring drive which is hybrid quartz/mechanical). So when people compare e.g. Rolex and Patek movements they are comparing mechanical to mechanical.

It's like saying your Tesla has better 0 to 100 kph acceleration than a 70s Aston Martin V8. The answer is "so what?". You're not driving an Aston Martin V8 for the best acceleration, or the gas mileage, or suspensions, or the ease of maintenance. You buy it because it kicks and roars and slips and smells...

The iPhone and iWatch are clearly status symbols. How many users really need the full power of those chips? How many actually use it?

I could go into very lengthy details into the technical prowess behind Rolex watches.

Now you're just making stuff up instead of doing a simple Google search. Regular Seikos (ie a Seiko 5) can expect around +-20 sec per day. Same with Orient and similar brands that use very cheap automatic movements. Rolex watches often do better than +-2sec per day. If you think the difference between the two is marketing you are either engaging in sophistry or painfully uninformed.

Women don't date homeless men either. That doesn't make having a roof over your head a status symbol.