Ask HN: Has the tech recession affected you? I don't see much talk of it here, but are we in the depths of a serious tech recession? VC world seems to have been decimated, massive layoffs at most tech firms, IT consulting and contracting also decimated. Have you been affected? Is there any end in sight? Sharing your experiences can help others to know they're not alone. |
I'm hoping to stay here a long time, really like the workplace
I been through 2000,2008, 20015(:) and 2023, layoff a few times, and my answer now is, shut up and pay me. Build a 1 or 2 year F-U fund and have zero debt. You know what happens after a layoff if you have that? Nothing. you sleep well and start looking for a Gig or FTE without the pressure of bills. It shows up in interviews.
My decision to take my time and find a “perfect” job is feeling a lot less achievable now.
The layoffs were mainly ICs so a lot of middle management is left trying to fight for scope to save themselves. I have a feeling that managers are going to be the target of layoffs this year.
Overall I am fortunate to have a job, and just trying to ride this one out for the next 1-2 years. I would like to get promoted or become a team lead/manager but I don’t see that happening right now.
In my opinion: whereas previously tech was hiring consistently, there was a good fit for nearly every candidate. Now I'm seeing a "K" shape recovery where folks with established careers can still get jobs, but those who have less experience or were below the curve to begin with are having a much tougher time getting jobs at the same pay / title level. I've even seen some of our interns (at my last role) that we couldn't extend offers to leaving the field, which is saddening to say the least.
I feel bad for everyone who didn't get lucky with the timing like I did.
Best wishes for the new year.
Since then, with the help of a few sporadic clients, government help, and living like a pauper I decided to go all in in becoming an entrepreneur, instead of continuing my 17+ year career as a consultant or someone else's employee. Seems like stuff hasn't improved in the past 9 months.
Not having a stable job is very stressful, but the interview rat race these days is more akin to real life Squid Game than anything I've experienced before. It is dehumanising. I'd rather be penniless, stressed, and working on my product at this point. If you can afford to, do it. Even if you don't, tbh.
My theory on this is that X created a bit of a chill that became a full blown cold front. While the high profile layoffs at the FAANGs, percentage-wise it wasn't that big and most of these companies are still above pre-pandemic staffing levels, but it affected job seekers profoundly.
While those numbers are true in aggregate, a layoff is disastrous to an individual. There's no more "take this job and shove it, I'll have a new one by the end of the week". My current employer has a moribund stock price, and is nowhere near a prestige name, has suddenly stopped complaining about not being able to find qualified candidates. On recent data engineering position that opened had 350 applicants. I can't imagine what the FAANGs are getting. It must make navigating the pipeline that much more challenging. I've had 2 recruiters tell me that you really need a referral, or better a champion inside the company to get you seen.
I've heard some tales from recruiters about how aggressively recruiters poach job listings, it seems companies now feel empowered to play recruiters off against each other.
For my part, I'm out of market for another job for now, barring something extraordinary. I've made my peace with my situation: it's not awesome, but it's OK and it's time to focus on other things in life than landing a dream job.
The current market conditions have changed my thinking from "I just need to brush up on leetcode, learn a new language/framework or two, and I'd be able to step up into a better job" to "I'd probably be hard pressed to land a similar/better job from what I have ever again, best to milk what I have while I can".
I'm at peace with that though, I wouldn't mind just moving to a low cost area, and working on other / non-tech things at this point.
Eager to improve my non-technical skills with this work.
I’m curious to see how the field fluctuates in these next years with the upheaval of cheap interest and split opinions on doom/boon of tech workers via LLM automation.
Some numbers from December: - 26 jobs applied to - 14 just never replied - 4 sent standard "we're looking for other candidates" emails - 5 went to different stages of interviews only to resolve into "offer made to another candidate" - 1 filled all the positions they had, but left the interview "open" for when new positions open up - 1 is hopefully pending me getting an offer this week
Of the 5 that went with other candidates: - 1 went all the way to right before the offer and they basically told me the had to decide between me and another candidate and the other candidate had direct experience with a product they wanted to build in early 2024 - 1 was supposed to really kick off after the holidays, told me waiting until after the holiday was what the preferred. Emailed me today to tell me they had a candidate accept an offer and my interviews would be cancelled.
Honestly feel like it should be a legal requirement to inform a candidate if you have an active offer out for the position they are applying to.
I manage an AI consultancy (https://ingram.tech/). We were AI/fintech/cybersec before 2023, and grew a lot this past year by putting all our efforts behind the AI branch.
But that's also because the other two branches just... died out. I'm surrounded by enthusiasm, but there's very little money in the game. Budgets have been cut by 10x everywhere. A huge part of the issue I think is actually the disconnect between budgets. Not everybody has caught up to the "new prices".
We started an AI startup incubator/accelerator (https://seven.camp/) and now things are looking up, but that's because we've had to create our own demand.
I dunno, I could talk about this more but it's been pretty demoralizing tbh, especially in Europe. Feel free to AMA.
On Hacker News, it's hard to gauge because it's not possible to tell if you're getting an unbiased sample of comments. One thing that's definitely happening is theres a lot, quite a lot, of applications for each job posting, so response rates are much lower.
Hopefully you'll make a good decision. But your experience may depend heavily on what area you work in, your location, your network, etc. Good luck and all the best.
Statistically, VC money is worst in late stage startups and actually higher in early stage ones. Since the big ones hire more, including contractors, more people are affected overall.
It is a great time to start a startup, though, if you're into that. Cheaper and higher quality talent on the market. I know some are cringing about the low startup rates, but some techies are selling insurance and essential oil.
Took me 2 months to get a new job. Applied and interviewed at a bunch of places, mostly local, some remote. Finally got a job with one of the first places I applied for (I think my initial recruiter left which delayed stuff). Largish Tech company in Enterprise space, I'm in a "Follow the Sun" Ops team.
I think it's interesting how in some ways the tables have turned for the people who used to interview me. When I was breaking into software five years ago, I remember how the interview process could feel dehumanizing. I was a self-taught developer, I didn't have a computer science degree. Insane interview questions that had nothing to do with writing stable & performant code, take-home assignments, automated ghosting and vague feedback that wasn't helpful in the slightest. All for the privilege of burning yourself out to build someone else's dream.
Nowadays, it sounds to me like a lot of older developers with 10, 15, 20 years of experience who never had to deal with this bullshit are suddenly discovering how interviewing for software engineering roles can be a tad capricious and arbitrary. After 10-15 years they know exactly what the job is. They know they can do it, and don't understand why they need to jump through all these other hoops.
It's not exactly schadenfreude, but I can't help but feeling that if engineering leaders and hiring managers had listened to the feedback from all the junior developers that came in between 2015-2020 about how insane the hiring process was and actually did something to improve it, perhaps those same 'staff' engineers or whatever they are calling themselves nowadays would be able to reap the rewards of the improved infrastructure created to effectively interview and place software engineers into roles they can have confidence they would succeed in.
Instead, you have the same shit I was wading through 5 years ago and it still stinks.
I suppose I'm "lucky" that I got laid off in 2021 after the company I was working for was acquired by private equity. It wasn't a bad time to find a job, and I went looking for something different which ended up being a small, local company that does fairly boring software development.
But it's certainly a recession for tech workers.
AI boom is interesting in the sense, if the AI successfully increases programmer productivity, then it also would drive down the demands, unless AI can increase the pie by eating away other industries. So far I haven't seen this, AI seems to have a bigger impact on software industry itself than any other industry out there.
Not very optimistic that AI alone can change the tide, but considering how fast things can change (GPT-5 might be the AGI, or GPT-4 level model gets open sourced and runs much cheaper everywhere), 6 months in the future the outlook might change drastically.
So maybe "boom" is the wrong word, but it sure seems to have put a stop to the outright austerity mindset.
I am hoping to ride the wave. I'm doing far more than I am qualified because of LLM.
So, it may just be my perception is skewed for other reasons than a recession. Either way, it sucks.
My advice is to hang in there. Often we have 3 strong candidates per open position. The people we reject aren’t getting rejected because they aren’t a good fit or lack skills - it’s just that someone else was a little better. If I had the budget I’d hire all the great people I have the privilege of interviewing.
For what it’s worth I think the industry is starting to run a little too lean. Teams are getting pushed to their limit, there’s no “slack” left for additional output. Contrary to the buzz you see on sites like HN, in the real world AI coding tools are completely underwhelming. The pendulum is losing momentum and I suspect orgs will realize they either need to grow their headcount or downsize their product offerings - meanwhile they’re letting certain products languish because they don’t have the headcount to work on it. And risk appetite for entering new markets is waaay down. The business culture is becoming more conservative (not politically/culturally, but rather in terms of its approach to operations and product development)
This means more opportunities for entrepreneurs and new companies soon. “What if big tech company X just copies you?” — oh you think they’re going to get budget to do that? You think they’re going to hire 50 devs to just copy your random startup? In THIS market? With THIS amount of Wall street scrutiny against quixotic projects? Hah! If you see a gap build it and fill it. The big dogs are all tied up in meetings with finance trying to save their datadog subscription from the chopping block - they won’t notice you until it’s too late.
In my experience it's even worse outside of tech.
Because I really need a job I've just been applying to everything. Minimum wage: I don't care. In a way I'm actually looking forward to just show up, do my job, and go home, without stress.
But I get almost no response on those. And I actually spent MORE time for cover letters for those than the tech stuff. On tech I get a response (interview or rejection) for about 1 in 4. Outside of tech? About 1 in 30.
I guess "15 years CV as software dev, that guy is too smart for us" or something like that.
I keep reading about "labour shortages" for lots of low-skilled jobs... Hmkay...
Also not eligible for social security because I'm technically homeless (as in: renting "unofficially").
Might be properly homeless soon... No idea what I'll do.
I don't have a right to work in tech or a high salary, and fine, there's a downwards turn. No problem. But that I have no options beyond "burn all your savings and go homeless fuck you" has left me rather ... disappointed.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is: it's not "tech hiring" that's the problem. It's just "hiring" or "companies" or whatever.
> But I get almost no response on those.
Weren’t these the same people bitching about how no one wants to work?
There is something Victorian in this prostration a working-class person must have to do just to be thrown a coin, and when you've sent your 50th CV, your tongue is sandpaper dry from the forced boot licking.
Look, I am not applying to the best company in the world, and you're not offering that much compared to the competition, nor your product is earth-shatteringly interesting. If only I could write "I need money, I am capable for this position, that's all there is to it." Because we all know that is the truth.
And all that effort, just to be ignored in the best of cases. Not even an automated "No. End of message." email.
It definitely feels like it's time for next wave of entrepreneurship, but the current environment may make it difficult to realize it.
I was laid off in the summer and tried some smaller ideas for a few months, but it is very hard to be a solo founder in my experience - way too much work wearing all hats. Fortunately I bagged a job to get income stream back in line, but in my gut I feel like I'm missing an opportunity.
I found that I just have too many financial responsibilities to take the leap without either/both a co-founder and seed funding (despite desperately clutching to the notion that bootstrapping is better). And that's hard for many right now.
yes and no. I was just hiring as a founder of a small company. I just filled in that role after receiving like 250 resumes in 1 month. Now, 235 of them were totally irrelevant and people just applying. Remaining 15, I was able to interview 7-8 for Round 1 and then 3-4 made it to Round 2. Out of those, we really like 2 candidates and it was close and since we could only hire 1, we had to say no to the others. Tough but no choice.
It is tough for candidates right now but honestly, majority of people applying are lazy and don't do any homework. Yes it is hard and you cant spend time on every company but if you are applying to small/startups, you have to research a bit. It is harder right now but as an employer, I wouldn't respond if all you did was send a generic resume and worse, applied to a role you have no qualifications for.
This is one of the most disheartening negative impacts for looking for work when you have decades of success in your career:
"We appreciate you applying, but we found others who are better than you. Thank anyway, loser"
These emails, are lose-lose-lose; You lose by getting the email, you lose by the feeling it imbues, you lose because you dont have RHFL to your actions.
I would like a reverse RHFL - an AIRHL (which is what AI is meant to do) (AI Reinforced Human Learning)
Dont tell me I am rejected, I want to know where to improve...
This would be a wonderful triage app for AI going forward - is just a site such as linkedin, should have a GPT that reads your profile/CV and just constantly asks you Continuous Education questions, and gives you credits for answering correctly, and builds training modules for you...
I send out my resume and barely get any answers. I don't even get a chance to interview.
That being said, I had a good luck streak in December! I'm waiting to hear back from several companies right now.
I'm still saving money in case layoffs happen, especially because I'm remote and moved far outside of tech markets and bought a house last year.
I have a large amount of anxiety looking around my network at folks who I know are competent and have been out of work for more than 6 months. I'm very glad I didn't follow the trend and stayed at a more stable company.
It's still valuable data - it tracks that it's harder to land an interview these days.
Almost every job I've ever landed I interviewed in December. Just last month I interviewed a dozen people or so for roles in my company. My recruiter friends that I talked to all landed a bunch of offers last month.
Everyone is about to get swarmed with resumes right now but there's a pool out there with a three week headstart and less competition because of the reasoning I mentioned.
Anecdotally, I'm hearing lots of stories of companies laying people off and then there are new openings very similar to the position that was let go, but with lower salaries or where one person would be expected to do the work of 2-5 previously laid off folks.
In particular, a person I know from EA Games saw half their department let go, and then replacements appeared a couple months later. All of them had lower pay and were less skilled. This all reads like quarterly profit optimizations by a bean counter up top looking to make the shares look good.
This is just the regular course of business in the games industry. They like to scale up and down according to need (games in development) and would largely prefer to employ contractors, but laws prevent them working contractors like dogs and studios go where the tax credits are & tax credits require having employees typically.
so only $300k total comp and 20 hrs of work per week?
I haven’t seen much of this, but I’m constantly getting notifications about jobs I was reject for months ago being reposted. I’m not sure if it’s resume fishing or if company’s have delusional standards. And I’m not talking about too their tech companies either.
I don't live near a major city. This wasn't a problem when remote work was the norm, or when I could wait for the right remote job to open up. But in the current environment it's a major headwind.
I'm also starting to get concerned about how employers will perceive this long of a job gap.
And the psychological aspect of this long of unemployment is no joke either.
I'm adding two dozen to the team this year and will start working through that thread tomorrow. I can't be the only one.
Who Wants to Be Hired? A bunch of similar people to me or better, with that same tech stacks as me, looking for remote.
Who is Hiring? Companies with tech stacks I don't use, looking for on-site.
I didn't think there was any point until you mentioned that you'll be looking for candidates there.
Sure seems recessionish to me.
Otherwise though I'm very well rested, and my M+ rating in World of Warcraft is better than ever.
Part of my problem was I really wanted to avoid moving and stay remote. That turned out to be impossible. I ended up taking a job and moving to place I don’t care for so far. I’m pretty sure I only got it because of a referral because I was less qualified for it than many of the roles I was getting rejected for.
My career was rotting anyway. I’m not going to waste time typing out an essay, but I’m pretty sure I’ve hit my peak pretty early and there’s not much left for me to do (or that I care to do). I still had some ounce of ambition prior to the layoff, but that’s gone now. I just feel defeated. I was actually planning to leave the industry prior to the layoff, but that won’t happen now.
I keep wondering if my career peaked in 2020 and for a year or so I've become increasingly negative about my future career progress in tech.
I'm kind of in the opposite situation to you though. Desperately want to move, but can't. Not any time soon anyway. This will hold me back I'm sure.
Just wanted to leave a comment wishing you the best.
I noticed companies are being excruciatingly picky during interviews. One interview for a senior position the interviewer kept interrupting me during coding and during my explanations to tell me how he would have answered the problem. It cut into the solution time.
Another company I was interviewed by someone who had only been in the industry for 3 years and at the company for 6 months and not a senior and told me I wasn’t qualified enough for a senior position because they couldn’t follow my explanation. Even after asking “does that answer your question?” I was also a referral from a former coworker who was also laid off.
I have an interview in two days that has two 1 hour coding interviews and a systems design interview and this was after I already completed a 1 hour technical screening.
I’ve even done a take home project that resulted in no interview so I have stopped interviewing with those companies as well.
I think a lot of younger people were promoted or weren’t laid off and now companies are feeling out how to hire people again, but the biggest barrier I am seeing is purely over interviewing candidates and looking for some tiny flaw in their responses.
Are you trying to hire me or just interview me?
I am glad I am not the only one this has ever happened to. I honestly felt bad for the junior being forced to fly solo and I was thankful I didn't get a callback because I can't imagine the kind of org that does this to the juniors and candidates.
That tells me the hiring team just votes on a candidate with 0 discussion. Indeed not a healthy work environment.
5-6 months later we needed another lead engineer and we got over 300 for the exact same position, same pay, same location.
The job market seemed dead, also I was competing with around 500+ people that were laid off as well with me... luckily(!!!) I've found a new job after only 2 weeks.
The compensation is lower, but it's fine. Europe compensation for developers sucks in comparison to North America :-(
My new job is in a small company, but really nice. Cool people, laid-back and interesting. I really like it.
Unfortunately the job market has cooled, I’m seeing comp lower for all roles unless you’re in a buzzy AI company (which will come to a halt at some point).
I wonder if this is mostly a problem in the American VC/startup world.
Things seem toughest for the very young. If you have <2 years of experience and get laid off, you are neither new nor experienced. That seems like a tough sell. Companies have a pipeline of new grads for junior roles and are hesitant to give bigger titles to people that are still relatively inexperienced. This goes double for anyone afflicted with imposter syndrome and unable to tell the story of their experience with a bit of salesmanship.
Also, even though more experienced folk are in great demand in general, finding the right role that aligns your interests and expertise with what a company needs and values is still a lot of work. You may be awesome, but you aren’t as interchangeable as somebody with say 4-8 years of experience. For leadership roles (staff+) hiring managers can get very picky and specific about what they want to see.
It’s best not to get discouraged by this but just recognize the rejections as a necessary step in the process.
I'm experiencing this. I've run into multiple junior (or new grad) positions that auto-disqualified my application because I graduated over 2 year ago. I'm less qualified for a junior position because I have some experience.
and they didn't even counter and moved on. very established company too, a highly unusual practice according to every recruiter, article, AI rehash, and person I’ve told this to
I would say this is a symptom of the market. Employers flexing on the big pool
The way things are you'd have much better luck negotiating a salary review after a six month probation or something.
California, by the way.
I’ve had great experiences with many companies that did something weird during the interview process or administratively
these functions are separate
there is no need to look for a silver lining
Got a job at a startup a few months later. Hate working here, but I’d like to own a house in the coming years. Can’t wait to leave.
FWIW I originally rejected their offer, for the reasons I now wish to leave.
I need a break :(
As far as I've been told, the funding for most startups is gone right now.
I work as a DoE contractor and that means my job is pretty much stable unless I intentionally try to get fired or if the federal government is insolvent (in which case we have a much bigger problem than just 1 random dude not having a job).
I turned down an offer from a bulge bracket 2 years ago and I am glad I did because that company had its own little down sizing.
Pay is also inching lower.
I suppose contractors are a "make hay while the sun shines" situation and it can turn...
Who wants to settle for that type of partner/employee, especially if that's who they are in the honeymoon phase of dating/interviewing.
Not everyone works to 'transact your time and expertise for money' - some people want to 'fulfill a mission' with meaningful work, and build a purpose driven career.
The analogy works better than you think - at the end of the day, all I'm talking about is making a good first impression. What you may be looking for is up to you, but if you are looking to enter a mutually beneficial relationship whether it's personal, romantic, or financial - acting like a sourpuss isn't going to help you.
Late December is a perfect time for interviewing because of code freezes and lack of progress on bigger projects. We had more time to interview than candidates in pipeline during that back half. Plus it's a time of year when generally people are relaxed and in a good mood.
In my experience, you _can_ get hired but it tends to be much slower. These were all also small companies so only 1 - 2 people were sorting through applications.
No, it's not.
many people, including engineers, are obsessed with looking for a silver lining when the reality is that I lost all my leverage and every new recruiter call is at least a month and a half from new money hitting my bank account, if everything goes perfectly.
Of course people want a meaningful job to some extent. According to Herzberg's dual-factor theory, challenging or meaningful work is a motivator that gives positive satisfaction in the workplace. But Herzberg successfully identified that the hygiene factors such as salary (meaningful in the 'transaction' sense of a job) are much more important.
'Transacting your time and expertise for money' is one of the main drivers for working (a hygiene factor), 'fulfill a mission' is merely a motivator. We have known and taught this to managers since the 70s.
A competent employer will of course know about this - be it through having competently trained management or just experience. Managers know that some candidates are completely happy with a high hygiene + low motivation mix. In some situations, this is completely fine and not 'acting like a sourpuss' as you describe it.
Are we?
Who wants to be hired? (2023)
Oct: 547
Nov: 431
Dec: 461
-----
Who wants to be hired? (2022)
Oct: 272
Nov: 307
Dec: 200
Given the numbers, I would say tech unemployment was 2x worser in 2023 than the year before.
I'm alright, already found another position but others are not so lucky unfortunately. We were already understaffed and working hard constantly too. I can only imagine how burnt out my old coworkers are probably getting now.
At least 1 person in the world isn’t dooming and glooming right now.
I don't see it getting better anytime soon.
Honestly they have some really interesting-looking roles open. I've also heard great things about working at Anduril and not-so great things about working at Palantir.
Then say it. :)
I think because I have quite broad appeal in my experience I tend to find it reasonably easy to get interviews, and I've always felt I have an above average hit rate of getting the jobs I apply for when I get interviews.
Early last year I lost my job and it was scary how quiet the market was. I managed to find a job in the end (I think I got quite lucky to be honest) but it was a contract role so recently I've been looking around again as I will be out of work fairly soon.
I've sent my CV out for ~30 positions over the last couple of months and I've heard absolutely nothing back. Well, one recruiter said I had been shortlisted weeks ago, but then I heard nothing back.
I'm actually stunned at how bad the market is right now. I've had two previous colleagues contact me this week alone asking if I know of any work going because they've been out of a job for a while.
But not only is the market bad right now, I'm also noticing that rates for many engineering roles have tanked. A recruiter reached out about a React developer role recently which had an advertised day rate of £200 ($250), for comparison in 2021 your average React developer day rate might be around £500-600. So even where people are finding roles in many cases they're taking significant cuts in pay. Lead developer and very niche roles seem to be holding in a little better, but from what I've seen they've still come down quite a bit in recent months.
Additionally because so many talented people are out of work right now even if you find a job at a significant pay cut you're going to struggle to get it because in some cases these roles are getting 50-100 applicants – many of whom have many years of experience.
What worries me is that some people I'm talking to still seem to think that it's not that bad out there, saying things like, "I've always found something", or "there's always someone hiring", but I'm telling you this time is different. I know multiple people struggling to pay rent and feed their families right now. Tech did reasonable well during the GFC, but right now it's dire out there for tech jobs. Anyone reading this needs to be prepared to lose their job and be out of work for at least a year, and even if you find a job you need to be prepared to take a significant pay cut. If you can't afford to be out of work for a year you need to save and prepare – especially if you have a family dependant on your income.
I'm based in the UK, so perhaps it's better elsewhere in the world, but I have never seen the market this bad before – not even close. I wouldn't bet on a rebound any time soon either. Work from home, higher interest rates, large numbers of new tech talent graduating, and increasing automation in software development workflows may keep the market cool for a long time.
The US is the world leader on environmental policy. If we kill the US economy the environment will pay in the long run.
The reason tech is struggling right now (imo) is that Covid dragged forward a ton of demand in tech hiring and in late 2022 this pull forward started to reverse as companies faced facing reopening (less digital demand), higher interest rates and inflationary cost increases. Many companies either had plenty of tech talent so paused hiring, others had too much and needed to cost cut so did layoffs. The result is a market full of talented engineers but no one looking to hire.
I think it may also be partly that the AI hype has pulled capital from labour to compute. The largest expense an AI startup has is compute, not tech talent. Previously a newly funded startup would hire a large team of engineers, now they'll use that funding to bring in a few AI researchers and spend the rest on compute.
LINQ is powerful technology. Don't let anyone snub their noses at you.
If the only options for professional engagement were the languages popular with the HN commentariat (Python, Golang, Rust), I'd probably slit my wrists.
I've worked with loads of languages -- even PHP and Perl -- and would do it again without a second thought for the right company/project.
I do miss some of that nice syntax sugar.