Tell HN: How an elderly couple I know had their computer 'stop working'

75 points by slowwriter 2 years ago | 93 comments

Thought I'd share a little story from today:

I was on a Zoom call with a few others, and suddenly the husband of this elderly couple proclaims that their computer 'stopped working'.

There was, however, some evidence to suggest the contrary as they were still in the call with us.

After a while we realize what has gone wrong: The husband accidentally disabled Bluetooth. The keyboard and mouse were both connected via Bluetooth.

Was it a laptop, so he could use the built-in trackpad temporarily to enable Bluetooth? Nope.

Did they have a USB mouse around to use? Also no.

So now they literally have to go into town to get a USB mouse. We had a good laugh about that.

But it did make me wonder: The button to disable Bluetooth is easily accessibly in macOS on this iMac, and honestly this could have happened to anyone including myself.

So why doesn't macOS warn the user before you disconnect all your peripherals?

tzs 2 years ago |

> So why doesn't macOS warn the user before you disconnect all your peripherals?

What version of MacOS and what specific Mac and what Bluetooth mouse and keyboard?

On my 2017 iMac running 13 (Ventura) which has a Bluetooth keyboard but a USB mouse trying to turn of Bluetooth brings up a dialog that asks if I'm sure and warns me that if I turn it off I won't be able to control the Mac with a Bluetooth mouse, keyboard, or trackpad, and gives me options to cancel or proceed to turn off Bluetooth.

On my 2023 Mac Studio running 14.2.1 (Sonoma) on which both the keyboard and mouse are Bluetooth it gives me a dialog that says in bold "You cannot control your computer if you turn Bluetooth off at this time", and below that in non-bold repeats that with "as you would lose your input devices" added.

It only has an "OK" button which dismisses the dialog, leaving Bluetooth enabled.

The Bluetooth keyboards on both of those are Apple Magic Keyboards, and the Bluetooth mouse on the Mac Studio is an Apple Magic Mouse. I wonder if the warnings only happen if you are using at least one Apple input device?

slowwriter 2 years ago | |

I will have to ask them for specifics, but I believe they are on an older iMac (pre 2017) that cannot run Ventura or newer. If they are running Ventura, they may have simply overlooked the dialog completely, but I'm leaning more towards a version of macOS that didn't have the dialog.

SpaceL10n 2 years ago |

Great question. Something like, "This computer has no input devices. Check your keyboard and mouse." Seems like pretty important use case for a personal computer targeting people who may not have grown up around computers or even finished high school.

As a user of personal computers, I should be able to easily determine if my computer is configured for basic use.

nightowl_games 2 years ago | |

That error message is very poor.

Check your keyboard and mouse? I don't even know what you mean by that.

This computer has no input devices? Well that is simply false. The user is currently using an input device when they see this message.

Here's a better message:

"Warning!

Disabling Bluetooth will disconnect your wireless keyboard and wireless mouse. You will need to use a wired keyboard and wired mouse to re-enable Bluetooth.

Are you sure you want to disable Bluetooth?

Cancel. Disable Bluetooth. "

There should probably be a hardware button or switch to enable Bluetooth.

pwg 2 years ago | | |

And, sadly, given the rate of "click through" on all warning dialogs, a very many users will not read even the "better message" and will simply reflexively hit the "ok" button to "make this popup go away", effectively ending up in the same state.

Better is either the button/switch to turn Bluetooth on, or do not allow disablement when either a mouse or a keyboard is connected via Bluetooth and no wired version of the same is presently installed.

_nalply 2 years ago | | |

Never use the word "Cancel" in a warning dialog.

It is easy to get confused. Cancel what? Cancel Bluetooth? Cancel the turning off of Bluetooth?

Better are two buttons like this: [Keep Bluetooth running] [Disable Bluetooth].

Mac OS does this often right. I say this somewhat grudgingly.

ohyes 2 years ago | | |

The problem with either message is that it requires enough context to predict that the future state will make the computer unusable. (I know there are no HID usb devices, I know there is a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse).

Neither message is particularly bad, but hypothetical error messages are just that. Either message would require piercing the veil between the Bluetooth transceiver and the devices that rely on it, meaning you’d have to be careful to avoid a leaky abstraction. (Bunch of HID detection spaghetti next to your clean Bluetooth disabling code).

Agree about the switch.

teeray 2 years ago | | |

> Check your keyboard and mouse

Check engine light? I checked! The engine is still there!

cabalamat 2 years ago | | |

> The user is currently using an input device when they see this message.

Surely they are using an output device, the screen?

PH95VuimJjqBqy 2 years ago | | |

The first thing anyone is taught is the names of things, I don't think it's a stretch to expect people to know what the name of the thing they type on and the name of the pointing device they use is called.

random_upvoter 2 years ago | | |

That's needlessly verbose already. If you just warn people that disabling Bluetooth will disable their keyboard and mouse, they will put A and B together and cancel. No need to turn it into a logical exercise.

veeti 2 years ago | |

Reminds me of the classic BIOS error message:

"Keyboard not found. Press F1 to continue"

ehto 2 years ago |

I have done exactly this on an iMac. Thankfully a wired mouse was in the same building. But I was shocked, reflecting on how easily I had suddenly made my computer almost totally inoperable, by accident, without a warning.

beAbU 2 years ago |

This is the 2020s equivalent of setting the display resolution beyond what your monitor could handle back in the Win2k days. Back then it did not revert the settings back after 20 seconds!

jackhack 2 years ago | |

Yet, things could be worse. Back in the 80s & 90s it was possible to select a resolution/refresh frequency that would permanently damage (e.g. destroy) a CRT (cathode ray tube) monitor.

girishso 2 years ago | |

That reminds me of setting unsupported display resolution back in the mid 90s on Windows 95, resulted in blank screen. Luckily my brother and I knew the UI by heart, rebooted the machine -> opened "Start" menu -> Settings -> Control Panel -> Display -> Move to Settings tab -> Change to working resolution -> Apply -> Reboot - all on the blank screen using keyboard, it worked though!

fma 2 years ago |

I've never liked using bluetooth peripherals and this gives me another reason. USB dongle for life, I guess.

bigallen 2 years ago | |

Wait, are you saying you just trade the wireless functionality from the built in Bluetooth to an external Bluetooth dongle?

dontlaugh 2 years ago | | |

The dongle is definitely not using Bluetooth. Wireless peripherals with USB dongles generally have their own custom radio protocol, for better or worse.

Xaiph_Rahci 2 years ago | | |

A physical OEM USB dongle on PC side, whether Bluetooth or not, and an On/Off switch on the peripheral side would have certainly prevented the issue in discussion.

nicolaslem 2 years ago | | |

Proprietary wireless dongles for keyboards and mice are often not Bluetooth.

cassianoleal 2 years ago |

Surely they charge the keyboard and mouse. Wouldn't at least one of them be charged via a USB cable? Plugging that to the computer would turn the peripheral into a wired USB one.

philo23 2 years ago |

I’m pretty sure macOS does warn you that turning Bluetooth off will disconnect your keyboard/mouse/trackpad, if thats the only input device you’ve got connected.

Not sure when it was introduced but it’s definitely there on the latest version because I bumped into it the other day.

slowwriter 2 years ago | |

Interesting! If that’s the case, great! But I believe the couple in question is on an older iMac not upgradeable to the latest version of macOS, so they would still be out of luck.

mrits 2 years ago | |

Never thought of this but this sounds like the kind of thing that would happen to me right before an important meeting.

lotsofpulp 2 years ago |

This website claims turning the computer off and on will prompt macOS to search for Bluetooth keyboard/mouse if there isn’t one connected.

https://macreports.com/how-to-turn-on-bluetooth-on-your-mac-...

I don’t understand how one is supposed to do this without a keyboard or mice though:

> If you are working on documents, save them, and close them.

slowwriter 2 years ago | |

Someone else pointed this out, I didn’t know. Although, yes, if they needed to close any prompts that might have been a problem.

rograndom 2 years ago |

My wife has a similar problem with the iMac supplied wireless mouse. She'll go to click-drag something and catch the power switch, which is on the underside of the mouse, on the mousepad turning off the mouse. This has happened maybe four times in the two years we've had it, but everytime it's been "The computer crashed!" and gets power-cycled, losing work. Of course it's still "crashed" when it comes back up because the mouse is turned off. This post makes me feel like I should put a sticky note on there to check the mouse next time.

gitgud 2 years ago |

I chuckled reading this… would restarting the Mac re-enable the Bluetooth?

slowwriter 2 years ago | |

Well, add that to the list of things that didn't prevent or solve the problem, unfortunately.

Also, I was thinking: If I was in that situation I might SSH into it from a different machine. Yeah, good luck with that to the elderly couple.

addandsubtract 2 years ago | | |

You have to enable remote SSH in the settings, first.

tambourine_man 2 years ago | |

Perhaps. IIRC, if a Mac starts and no keyboard is attached or paired it will show a Bluetooth searching dialog box

slowwriter 2 years ago | | |

Interesting. Didn’t know, will have to check that.

Dalewyn 2 years ago | |

Yes.

One of the things I absolutely fucking loathe on my MacBook is it will always turn on the Bluetooth upon hard (re)boot. I never use Bluetooth; I turn it off for a reason.

It literally does not matter what I tell the operating system to do: The tooth must blue, for that is the One Apple Way(tm).

HWR_14 2 years ago | | |

Although that sounds annoying, clearly the reason for that behavior is this entire thread. If the old couple had not been zooming at the time, they would have rebooted and that would have fixed things.

slowwriter 2 years ago | | |

If I had known that rebooting would re-enable Bluetooth, that would’ve been a good fix in this particular situation. Although I do see how it can be annoying under normal circumstances.

majiy 2 years ago |

Reminds me: After moving, my PC (desktop) and mouse where available, but the keyboard still in one of many unopened boxes. Had to quickly check something, should be doable with mouse only. Only to be greeted by the BIOS message: "Keyboard error or no keyboard present, press F9 to continue".

Angostura 2 years ago |

> So now they literally have to go into town to get a USB mouse. We had a good laugh about that.

They just need to turn it off at the wall and turn it back on again, I believe - it will look for keyboard and mouse

bravetraveler 2 years ago |

Hah! Fun times. A prompt for 'N devices are paired, are you sure?' is a good idea

If their car is like mine, plug the laptop in there.

For some reason, plugging my phone in for Android Auto also forces my Bluetooth on.

sircastor 2 years ago |

If the keyboard is an Apple Keyboard (likely because it's an iMac) connecting it to the computer via the included charging cable will associate it with the computer. I'm not certain, but I'm willing to guess plugging in either the keyboard or the mouse will reenable bluetooth so the peripherals can be used (the mouse cannot be used while plugged in as I recall the design doesn't allow it.)

pritambaral 2 years ago |

A remote access tool with a client pre-configured could fix this. E.g., if this happened to me, I'd use KDE Connect since I already have it paired.

999900000999 2 years ago | |

You still need another device to remote in. Odds are you could just zoom from that device

Piskvorrr 2 years ago | | |

...zoom or another meeting system would require the other side to accept the connection. Using...what? OTOH, low-level remote access usually lacks any UI (such as the mentioned KDE Connect's Remote input, which mimics another input device).

But again, this requires some planning beforehand. Even "ssh in, install a remote viewer and use that" would require SSH to be there and reachable from outside (as NAT is likely). In the end, this is no different from "just grab the wired mouse and plug it in. Which one? Well the one you prepared beforehand."

graemep 2 years ago |

One lesson is that wired devices are better when they are practical. Less to go wrong - no dependence on something that might get turned off, no batteries going flat. You even get a smaller attack surface.

missjellyfish 2 years ago | |

Exactly the reason why I am rocking a Broadcast Headset (Beyerdynamic DT-797PV, to be specific) for work calls. It has XLR for the microphone and 1/4" for the headphones. All goes into a cheap Behringer UMC22. Never had any problems with Teams, Zoom, ... you name it, my colleagues using bluetooth have constant issues, be it with connectivity, audio quality or both.

Also since I wear glasses all day everyday I will never use any headphones that don't have velours earpads. So much more comfortable than faux leather.

rini17 2 years ago |

Could work same as video settings since ever. You have several seconds to confirm your screen still works and if you don't confirm, the settings automatically revert.

cabalamat 2 years ago |

I always use a wired keyboard/mouse. Less to go wrong.

addandsubtract 2 years ago |

Would connecting a phone via USB work? Is there an app that lets you use your phone as a mouse / keyboard via USB?

londons_explore 2 years ago | |

The USB port on phones is kinda locked down, and without rooting your phone I don't think there is any API to emulate an arbitrary device like a keyboard/mouse.

grotorea 2 years ago | | |

KDE Connect has a feature to use the phone as peripheral keyboard/mouse IIRC.

tnbp 2 years ago |

Surely, this computer must have come with a non-BT keyboard and/or mouse, though?

esprehn 2 years ago | |

An iMac comes with all wireless peripherals, but the charging cables for the devices can be used for using them wired in this situation.

slowwriter 2 years ago | | |

Not the Magic Mouse, though, unless you’re very skilled with your fingers.

wkjagt 2 years ago | |

Maybe it did but they didn’t keep it?

davidsergey 2 years ago |

I had a similar problem with my Windows gaming PC after I upgraded CPU cooler. Motherboard/BIOS decided that I've upgraded my CPU and it would not proceed without me pressing "F2" key on my keyboard.

Obviously my BT keyboard did not yet connect to the computer, since it was before BT drivers loaded or something, so I had to buy a wired keyboard to press "F2" and proceed. Would be nice to have 2-3 buttons right on a case to interact with BIOS. Or you know…load BT drivers.

londons_explore 2 years ago | |

I think some BIOS's do have support for bluetooth keyboards. There is a crazy thing where windows will send the bios the necessary encryption keys, so while the BIOS cannot pair with a keyboard, it can use a previously paired one.

Doubt it works with linux, and I bet it depends on using the exact right config even on windows.