When every ketchup but one went extinct (2022)(atlasobscura.com) |
When every ketchup but one went extinct (2022)(atlasobscura.com) |
This is a throwaway sentence mid article, but it makes it sound like the recipe that allowed Heinz to dominate was from an unpaid woman! Heinz had already figured out how to make ketchup shelf stable without preservatives, but I'm intrigued to know if he would have "won" without her recipe!
And who doesn’t love sweet?
(Acidity from vinegar helps too)
Long tradition of competing on anything but merits :)
> Thanks in part to high-quality ingredients, Heinz’s new tomato ketchup cost two to three times more than its competitors. But the price increase also paid for the largest advertising campaign the industry had ever seen
So it was higher quality and had the biggest advertising campaign.
Also: I had thought it was originally Malay.
Leaving this here since the site hijacked ctrl+c to add its url: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/business-jokes/coca-col...
Huy Fong Foods Sriracha is basically just red jalapeno ketchup.
If you can switch your brain to thinking of it as grape dipping sauce you'd probably like it.
This sounds suspiciously similar to the US practice of washing poultry meat with chlorine and eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).
You mean the exact same thing Europeans do with leafy greens?
But one is a target of economic protectionism and the other isn't, so it must be scary in that specific case.
> eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).
Ok, and?
When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32774584 - Sept 2022 (120 comments)
When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32557361 - Aug 2022 (1 comment)
It’s worth a read as it goes deep into the history of ketchup but more so it investigates food tasting, super tasters, etc. It turns out that Heinz Ketchup is essentially a perfect food in terms of taste. People don’t get tired of it and other ketchups come and go because they are all ultimately flawed. Some grab people initially but they tire of it because it isn’t balanced. Heinz is as are a few other products the article talks about.
[1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-co...
It's a notorious "newb trap" for chefs. You see a place making their own ketchup, that stuff might be good but you know they don't have a seasoned professional's view of where value is made. It takes hours of labor to make ketchup for something that in the end doesn't make your burger taste better than heinz does.
Similar to soda. Coke has just the right combination of things that no one else is close. Pepsi used to do a blind taste test and people preferred Pepsi after a single taste. But it’s 1-dimensional and people quickly tire of it. Coke eventually comes out on top.
“Perfect” is subjective but the article describes a ratings system that super tasters use. Heinz ketchup comes out perfect. And the lack of competition proves it.
Works in other art forms, too, and works in regular cooking. If you like a sensation, be careful to not dive in and add LOTS of it or the thing you like will end up distractingly strong, and the gestalt will suffer.
I found that tomato paste, sugar, vinegar and ground up pickling spice was good enough for me. And only took 15 minutes.
It's great the bottles don't spoil after being packaged, but I assume once opened all the careful boiling done at the beginning becomes irrelevant. And it's always been unclear to me how long you can keep a bottle around from that point onward! Especially say at a diner, where the bottle is non-refrigerated and sitting for days/months/years (periodically topped up)
The consensus was at the time was that it’s shelf stable due to the acidity, but it still needs to be refrigerated after opening. Restaurants go through sauce quicker, so they can leave it on the table.
Also interesting that Heinz’s ketchup (in be the US) is now full of high fructose corn syrup and artificial food dyes, when (from the article) it started as the better/safer/more natural option.
One I do: - chop some onions - put some oil in a pot - cook the onions at not too high heat - after a few minutes, add soy sauce, vineagr, a good amount of sugar, pepper (optionally tomato sauce; exact quantities and spices depend on your unique taste) - keep cooking for at least 40 minutes with a lid on. now and then check if it's too dry add water
In Europe (at least Italy, Germany, Austria) there are many different types of ketchup and manufacturers in supermarkets.
Granted all those articles were from one author, but I still remain a bit skeptical.
does that really follow?
"Fermentation was primarily developed for the stabilization of perishable agricultural produce."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/food-science/food-ferme...
These days I wouldn't trust a modern shop bought pickle to last more than a couple of months before they start to look like they're growing fungus.
I don't know what changed, but something did, and commercial pickles these days do not stay safe to eat.
much like human skin, gut, etc.
Edit: You can skip the fermanation step by pickling your vegetables with a suitable vinegar. The taste will be much different though.
But then I discovered that in the US they sell a variant called "Simply", which seems to be the same recipe as the UK/EU version.
I don't know if ketchup's low enough to stay indefinitely, but it'll keep long enough.
Amazing the leaps you took to make this statement. 1) There are no food dyes that I am aware of. 2) I don't think the science is conclusive that HFCS is any worse than sugar. 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?
> Both controversy and confusion exist concerning fructose, sucrose, and high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) with respect to their metabolism and health effects. These concerns have often been fueled by speculation based on limited data or animal studies. In retrospect, recent controversies arose when a scientific commentary was published suggesting a possible unique link between HFCS consumption and obesity. Since then, a broad scientific consensus has emerged that there are no metabolic or endocrine response differences between HFCS and sucrose related to obesity or any other adverse health outcome. This equivalence is not surprising given that both of these sugars contain approximately equal amounts of fructose and glucose, contain the same number of calories, possess the same level of sweetness, and are absorbed identically through the gastrointestinal tract. [...]
Fructose interferes with glucose use and regulation. The real comparison to be made is between normal corn syrup (only glucose) and HFCS (about half fructose), not sugar (about half fructose).
When using crude tools to evaluate metabolism like the glycemic index, which only considers blood glucose, it appears that fructose is better. The modern Western diet leads to obesity, diabetes, and fatty liver disease (NAFLD) because fructose metabolism collides with lipid metabolism in the liver.
The science is rarely conclusive about anything. There is enough evidence to suggest risks from high HFCS consumption to warrant caution.
> 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?
The US is associated with high HFCS consumption. I would suspect that these points are related and those non-HFCS varieties are more popular outside the US.
In the US, today I'd say Heinz is almost overwhelmingly associated with ketchup, so it's interesting that their ad efforts didn't make it to Oz.
As for Heinz, my impression has always been that it’s the standard, mass-produced supermarket fare that is probably not healthy/natural. Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.
When I think of Heinz these days I think of the politician John Kerry, because he's married to the heir to the Heinz family fortune. But that's mostly because my brain is weird.
Heinz Simply: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, Cane Sugar, Salt, Onion Powder, Spice, Natural Flavoring
Heinz No Sugar Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Salt, Natural Flavoring, Stevia Leaf Extract (Not Normally Found in Ketchup), Onion Powder
Heinz No Salt Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Sugar, Potassium Chloride (Not in Regular Ketchup), Natural Flavoring, Spice, Onion Powder
Heinz Organic: Organic Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Organic Tomatoes, Organic Distilled Vinegar, Organic Sugar, Salt, Organic Onion Powder, Organic Spice, Natural Flavoring
Heinz Jalapeno: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Salt, Dried Jalapeno Peppers, Spice, Onion Powder, Natural Flavors, Bell Pepper Juice Concentrate
There are probably others, those are the ones listed at one store.
There's no way that won't be found to be toxic. I recently had a health scare where I was inadvertently consuming a lot of it in a coffee creamer: the label color had changed and I thought nothing of it, but it represented a change in sweetener from monkfruit/stevia to 'sucralose'.
Came damn close to going to the hospital. Gut pain and sweats and pooping lighter and lighter shades as my organs shut down (at least from producing bile).
Figured out the change, dumped all the 'sucralose' and after a week or so returned to normal health, no other changes in diet or behavior at all.
I don't know why it's not banned already, but it must be hella profitable.
Gastropod has a good episode on ketchup; it might have been the one I'm thinking of but it might not. It covers many of the same things as this article but in more depth with certain things.
Indigestible. Used in place of flour or corn starch as a thickener or emulsifier. They can be quite irritating to some people.
We are starting to see more companies enter the market with sugar free ketchups, for example.
By me, Hunts is a common alternative to Heinz, but it seen as an option for people who buy on price, not taste.
Recently, I have been trying some of the sugar free options, but always also have a bottle of Heinz on hand, because if anyone comes over to my house, they will be disappointed with anything else. If kids come over, they might not eat their meal if it’s anything else.
On a side note, American supermarkets being accused of having less options is genuinely a first for me to hear. On average, especially for common goods like this, you're looking at a 2-4x brand diversity in an American supermarket. That doesn't necessarily mean it's better quality, but you're definitely going to see more options just due to the sheer relative size of American supermarkets.
But I honestly think U.S.S.upermarkets are great!
I live in Chicago, we’re lucky to have a single ketchup in the supermarket.
(Around the 2:35 mark):
But hey I live in the Midwest. Maybe the Heinz ketchup marketing juggernaut passed us by.
Wines can taste great (better even!) after years of storage, I would have not problem eating a well ages fermented ketchup.
> In conclusion, analysis of data from the literature suggests that HFCS consumption was associated with a higher level of CRP compared to sucrose, whilst no significant changes between the two sweeteners were evident in other anthropometric and metabolic parameters
We could go back and forth all day long posting studies from nih.gov, lets not be silly. I don't think what you have provided disproves my statement. The science is inconclusive, we don't know that HFCS is materially worse than sugar. I think we can say sugar in any form is not great in large quantities but I don't think we know for certain how worse, if any, HFCS is compared to natural sugar.
You have something to say here, say it. Plainly. Without the snark or superior attitude. Take that somewhere else; we won't miss it.
I occasionally try other ketchup brands, and they really aren't "better" in any dimension that I can discern. They're different, but ultimately unsatisfying.
If you have a product that hits 98% on any dimension that matters, there's really not a lot of room for "better."
That also goes for the difference between straight Heinz and the Simply Heinz (the one made with sugar). There's a non meaningful flavor difference, but straight Heinz is the clear winner in that I don't buy SH.
Part of the problem here is people not closing the bottle at the table. Humidity condenses inside of the bottle, which is typically still cold from the refrigerator.
In the back of the kitchen, we had a ketchup refill area which used a large bag-in-box system; here is what that looks like: https://i.imgur.com/jP8zrrI.png
As you can imagine, the bag lasted quite a while as we would just top up the classic red ketchup bottle with a screw lid. But...because our restaurant (Hamburger Mary's) was low/no-volume from Monday to Thursday, those bottles just...uh...sat on the tables for days on end, at most they'd sit out for a week.
On the tables.
At room temperature.
With constant exposure to air.
You can probably see where this is going:
The ketchup would gradually ferment due to the warm room temperature and continuous exposure to air. This fermentation process gave it a unique ‘tangy’ flavor that some customers mistook for a special “beer ketchup”. Given that I worked in Milwaukee, WI (a city known for its breweries and beer culture) their assumption wasn’t entirely baseless
But in reality, they were complimenting the taste of…well…rancid ketchup.
I left shortly after that experience to a real restaurant (Rock Bottom; if you like cajun pasta, here is their recipe for it: https://imgur.com/a/fjZnDAz) but yeah -- definitely be careful where you go to eat. Higher than normal employee turnover is absolutely a warning sign that the restaurant is poorly run and probably not the best place to eat.
I won't go into graphic detail, but my brother has eaten more metal than a sane person would ever consider
He's come out fine. What's remarkable is... this was with no assistance at all.
The body is remarkably good at passing things it doesn't care for
This isn't to say we should gross things up, though. As resilient as we can be... so can we be disgusting.
As if replacing canola with butter and HFCS with sucrose in their junk food will cure them of their over eating.
Don't get me started on seed oils......
Certainly when I think of Heinz I think of beans not ketchup.
"Heinz, there are no other Kinds": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JplL1XzVV4
In the import section.
And they weren't bad, but not great either.
The point about the US is the parent pointed it out as a jab when in reality they were wrong on multiple accounts.
All true, and all beside the point. The best available evidence suggests - not proves, but suggests - that HFCS consumption is more harmful than the alternatives.
There are also an innumerable amount of other sauces that include tomatoes and can be considered variants or ketchup-adjacent.
Well, just being someone who grew up in US and living in the EU now. As well as traveling quite prolificly throughout, I can attest (anecdotally, at least), that it does correlate to a larger brand diversity.
Boiling kills most bacteria. Acid kills the leftover Botulism spores (one of the few diseases that survive boiling). Seal while hot and the food can stay good for a year or longer.
Tomatoes already are near the acid point that kills botulism. Just gotta lower pH a little more with either lemons or vinegar. And bam, success.
A professional would need to measure the pH to be sure as acidity levels differ. But we've been canning tomatoes for nearly two centuries now, the science is well tested and well figured out.
> Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.
Refrigeration was invented long after preserved foods. You couldn't match a Roman Legion 500 miles without preservatives.
Salt, olive oil and wheat. It must have sucked to be a Roman Legion but less so than other troops.
It's why 1lb of salt was worth 1lb of gold back then. The secrets of long lasting food (fermentation, salt, and other methods) is millennia old. Canning is relatively new (boiling+sealing simultaneously), a 1800s era discovery. But canning's health effects are well studied.
EDIT: Deleted my previous comment.
EDIT: I seem to have gotten the story backwards. It was West-Africa who needed the salt, but they had so many gold-mines that Gold was near worthless. Woops!!
So any European who brought salt past the Sahara Desert could trade 1-lb of salt for 1-lb of gold.
However salt was more expensive than today. But measured in eg hours of the average person had to work for to afford something, almost everything is cheaper today than almost any time in the past. Especially goods. (Services or land, not so much.)
I guess it help to start with a non-rhotic accent.
Going off on a tangent: I was very confused when one Calvin and Hobbes comic rhyme 'macabre' with 'job'; I figured out later that it's because American accents are weird.
(UK) IPA(key): /ˌməˈkɑː.bɹə/, /ˌməˈkɑː.bə(ɹ)/
(US) IPA(key): /məˈkɑb/, /ˌməˈkɑ.bɹə/, /ˌməˈkɑ.bɚ/
Not rhotic, plus the vowel in "sauce" tends towards "or" rather than "ah". Hope that's a comprehensible explanation of our esoteric pronunciation :)
I think the rhyming slang part comes from Cockney slang my Dad always used to say "Dogs Eye and Dead Horse" to mean Meat Pie and Tomato Sauce.
He had other strange slang he'd use too like "Oxford Scholar" to mean "One Dollar" - UK uses pounds though so no idea where that one originated...
What is the American pronunciation of Sauce? If I had to guess maybe they pronounce it so it sounds like "Sores" or "Saws".
I don't know if I've ever heard an American say Sauce. On most American tv shows they talk about 'Ketchup'. Eg Hot Dog and Ketchup, which is a Frankfurt with Tomato sauce on a bun (doesn't really have the same ring...).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCm4VS9VMSM
That's 100% spot on.
I'm in the northeastern area of the country, it may be different for other areas.
Where I come from, it’s more like “sos” or I think “sas” in IPA.
Most often like “saws” (the cutting tools would be “sawz”)
