Ask HN: 36 months of unemployment and depression. How to go back?

81 points by hansor 2 years ago | 63 comments

Hi. I was fired around 36 months ago from my beloved job. I always made the maximum possible evaluations, and I was pooe but highly motivated programmer.

Due to the stress I'm afraid to seek the job as a python backend developer, as I truly believe that I lack modern skills and previous employment was too focused on telecom things.

What skills should I learn? Should I learn and then apply or apply anyway? Each failed interview is like 6 months of doing nothing... How to escape this vicious loop?

I'm a below average programmer with around 7yr of experience.

boredemployee 2 years ago |

Believe in me, I've been in your shoes before, it seems like an endless problem! But the cure starts with the basics that we often neglect:

1) Go out for some exercise (45min of moderate walking)

2) Get some sunlight

3) Check your Vitamin D levels

4) Drink about 2 liters of water

5) Eat healthily

6) After all this, start thinking about your employability again

Never forget that when one opportunity closes, others open up. The following metaphor might seem like quackery, but "instead of focusing on a sick tree, look at the entire forest around it"

kirkarg 2 years ago | |

100% on this. Prioritize you health and you will see some huge changes. Plus, if it helps, try to see the "numbers" behind your situation, remove any abstract thoughts and try to find a logical approach

akeck 2 years ago | |

Also try lifting weights. Done carefully to avoid injury, it can produce fairly quick body fitness changes that usually help during job interviews. Having usually done long distance rowing, I was surprised how fast my muscles tightened up and grew with one lifting session a week.

earthling8118 2 years ago | | |

And if you do these things and it doesn't solve your problems, don't feel bad about it. People really hype up the effects of working out but for some of us it doesn't change anything.

aurareturn 2 years ago | | |

> Also try lifting weights.

100% on this. Exercising, especially lifting weights, feels like you're improving yourself after every single session. You will literally see the difference in the mirror.

It's something that you can control. You can't always control how lucky or successful you are in your career. But you can always control your exercising. Once you improve the way you look, you start to feel better and people will also see you as more confident. Slowly, you'll get more opportunities.

Tldr; control what you can first which is your body, and the things you can't control will slowly get better.

herbst 2 years ago | | |

How did these muscles help in tech job interviews?

silverquiet 2 years ago | |

Meditation can be helpful too. 15 minutes a day. Find some guided ones on youtube that you like.

herbst 2 years ago | | |

Or yoga, breathing, or any other form of active slowness!

unparagoned 2 years ago | |

Yep, you need to do all that for your brain to function properly.

Many studies show exercise is as good if not better than drugs at treating depression.

throwaway14831 2 years ago |

As someone who hires people, hence the throwaway:

* Just apply to everything, you'll get used to it. Don't be picky, don't focus on backend, look for testing, QA, etc.

* Polish your CV. Do NOT try to explain anything regarding the last 3 years in your CV. The CV is just there to get you into interviews. Just state the pure job facts as they are.

* The most important thing is to get you into a job. ANY job. Be flexible with compensation. Once you are back in the game, it's much easier to find something else.

* Never, I repeat: NEVER, mention ANY kind of mental issue, be it depression, anxiety, whatever. While you might get sympathy, it is a huge red flag to any HR department and will result in you not getting hired. Seriously, pretty much ANY other explanation will be better than dealing with mental problems (well, maybe don't use "jail"). Don't be afraid to lie, your personal issues are nobody's business. Just say you traveled the world. Learn to lie convincingly, details matter!

tasuki 2 years ago | |

Good advice in general, but...

> Don't be afraid to lie, your personal issues are nobody's business. Just say you traveled the world. Learn to lie convincingly, details matter!

Agree, don't talk about personal issues, but, don't lie! Then you have to keep up the facade and it's exhausting. If you want to be honest, perhaps smile and say the last three years are behind you...

throwaway14831 2 years ago | | |

> "smile and say the last three years are behind you"

No offense, but that would be a terrible answer. IF you really, really want to be honest, say you had medical issues, but that it is all fine now. No interviewer will dig deeper here, as it would be plain illegal to do so. Still, I think there are better answers than that. I'm sure the OP did SOMETHING in the last three years. Maybe you traveled abroad a bit, read a few books, so just say you took some time to grow as a person, whatever. It's not really lying if there is some truth in it.

unethical_ban 2 years ago | |

I'm in a job and I get mostly positive reviews but I have issues getting tasks done due to what I ,(and my GP) consider ADHD. I wish I felt comfortable telling my boss so they could help manage me properly, but I'm afraid it would come off as an excuse after such a long time at the company.

blah-yeah 2 years ago |

Recipe for getting noticed:

1. Design and Build a project. Add it to Github, and commit to the main branch as you go. This makes it open source.

2. Once done (or while you build it), make a web portfolio which includes a description page and even demo of your project

Recipe for improving skills:

- study video tutorials (and code along) via udemy.com

- roadmap.sh for ideas

- libgen.is for free books

- chat rooms like IRC, Discord, Slack (google "discord channel for <thing that interests you-- such as Django, Flask, or another framework or a language>" -- substitute Discord for IRC and see those options)

I didnt have a CS degree. I taught myself full stack dev skills, then built something, then published a website about it. I used it to land my first 100% programmer job.

Also, prior to that 100% programmer job, I was a "business analyst" which involved some scripting. To get that role, I had to move states-- from the South over to California (San Jose area). I literally camped out for a month, then rented a room for a month-- until I landed my first job, then started renting a studio-- about 2 months in to my stay.

It's not necessarily the easiest path, but it's doable for some, depending on various factors.

intended 2 years ago |

First step is asking for help.

Depression is very hard to deal with alone. For physical wounds, we have very well developed mechanisms to tell us how to rest the wounded body part.

Things that mess with our perceptions are a whole different beast.

As others have said - First self care.

Things that help with depression the most consistently without going to a therapist is regular exercise.

Dont stress if you cant do it every day. You wouldnt push yourself to run on a busted ankle.

Small moves here, open up smaller spaces elsewhere, and so on and so forth.

No joke though, getting back on top is work.

Also - motivation and drive are major attributes for being recruited. Why do you think that was less important than your programming skills?

EchoChamberMan 2 years ago |

I'm not sure what you base your belief you lack skills on, but if you were working at a telecom, I imagine you have skills. Never reject yourself from a job because of your own thoughts - apply and let the company decide if they need the skills they see in you. That said, this is a tough time to be looking, so you might have to be patient. I would also consider talking to a professional about your worries.

I also heard this saying recently that I like, not sure who said it originally:

“If you are depressed you are living in the past. If you are anxious you are living in the future. If you are at peace you are living in the present.”

bentt 2 years ago |

instead of looking for a job, recalibrate your view around “looking for opportunities to help”.

this is more proactively aligned around your current value and interests.

it also includes volunteer, nonprofit, consulting, teaching. just really get aligned around service and helping and even if you dont land a job out of it directly, your confidence will benefit.

ore0s 2 years ago |

I'm sure you've heard AI is taking off. I can't help you bridge what I'm perceiving as lack of confidence. But if you know python + telecom, that's a valuable skillset at a few enterprise-facing AI companies. Think Twilio, Gong, Callminer, Dialpad, etc. They tend to have smart, motivated developers who get stuck debugging essentially modern wrappers on top of legacy telecom systems, and no idea what's going on underneath. That's just an idea off top of my head - where maybe you could help out.

MandieD 2 years ago |

I spent my first few months as a regular resident of Germany (after years as a US Army IT contractor) completely failing to get past initial interviews, and fell into what my husband and I now believe was some sort of depression. I can't really remember those months.

I got out of my funk by giving up on finding a "real" IT job and instead taking a part time job teaching English that paid less than anything I'd done since the middle of college.

But having to dress up everyday, go somewhere, and talk to a lot of people made me stop projecting a cloud of gloom (apparently), and resulted in a good temp job that turned into my current, permanent employment contract.

You most likely don't have the exact same option, but don't discount the benefit of having something that you have to get dressed and leave the house for on a regular basis, even if it doesn't pay well or at all.

smeej 2 years ago |

Maybe not the solution you're looking for but...pick something else?

If you're below average after 7 years and unemployed for the last 3, it makes one wonder why you keep trying to do this? You're a decade in and it isn't working out. That's okay. There are millions of other things people do to support themselves.

What else do you enjoy? It might not pay as well as being a programmer, but it probably pays better than being an unemployed programmer. Why keep your wagon hitched to this one path?

It doesn't sound like this is the path for you. I don't know what voice is telling you otherwise, but I wanted to add mine in to say you don't have to keep trying to do this.

doubloon 2 years ago |

Get a temp office job, watch what tools they use, learn those and work your way in. (Not a guarantee but worked for me)

Oh. And never ever ever give up. We are all below average at something that is why humans work in teams

galumptuous 2 years ago |

Skills are only as modern as the situation calls for. There are plenty of jobs in companies that are stuck in 1990s era technologies. When I started my job, the process including a step where we printed our emails in order to staple them to other printouts, all to be filed in a cabinet. Literally when a drawer filled up, the files were moved into an unlabeled box to packed haphazardly in an attic. And despite this archaic and disorganized methodology, the company makes a profit and has no debt. So even a depressed below average programmer can seem like a time traveler from the future. On hacker news, yeah maybe you are below average, but take a trip out into modernity’s hinterland and you might be seen as some sort of wizard with unimaginable powers. Programming is a way of seeing the world, not just a skill. Also, yes, exercise, meditation, etc. are all good solutions usually but depression can be crippling. If you can’t run, walk. If you can’t walk, stand, if you can’t even stand , you might need some of the old fashioned antidepressants from the heroic age of psychiatry. Confronting depression is a little bit like how some alcoholics stop drinking: it is sometimes helpful to take it one day at a time, one hour at a time, even one second at a time because ruminating, planning and thinking about doing things stops the doing. Today you make sure to get out of bed, then work on showering every day, then breathe some fresh air and absorb sunlight, then take a walk, then go for a jog or hike, etc. it could take time but no matter. If it is bad enough, even small steps can be highly rewarding.

logicalmonster 2 years ago |

Just a small bit of advice.

A lot of companies use recent employment as a filtering mechanism: if you have a big gap in technology employment, you might have trouble getting interviews.

I'd say to create an LLC on your own that serves as a consultancy and to put that on your resume that you're working with them to plug this gap. Register on freelance sites and take any jobs you can: even shit underpaid jobs. Make some money and get your skills a little current and use that to bypass the hiring filters.

nosmokewhereiam 2 years ago |

Self learning and education, caring for an elderly family member, sabbatical, anything but admitted weakness.

Pissing anything other than excellence is often frowned upon, so build your legend accordingly...

pythonbase 2 years ago |

Have you looked into freelance opportunities? There's a thread here at HN [0]. Twitter and LinkedIn can also be used for that.

Apart from that, and as others have also recommended, building a portfolio is a great approach towards employability.

Eat healthy, exercise, meditate, socialize. Do not despair. Surely with ˹that˺ hardship comes ˹more˺ ease. Best of luck !!

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39217309

umamike 2 years ago |

Reach out. Get coffee with people. Be curious about what people are doing, share your story ( which you are doing) tell people about what you are doing no matter how small, maybe attempt to to tell the story without it being full of sadness. I am not implying you should lie about anything but you can paint the picture a million different ways, so pick as fun a one as you can think of. I often found it things get a lot easier if the narrative in my head is just different than the one causing me pain.

Exercise of course.

bg117 2 years ago |

- Stay in the sunlight as much as possible. It is free. - Exercise at least 1-2 hours (Walking/Jogging, Yoga) - Eat healthy food - Keep reading - Find out things that interest you and keep doing it ex- books, painting, games... - Mental wellness is the most important thing that you should focus on - Find a topic of topic of interest and work on it ( most difficult but doable) - Don't worry about what others think of you.

selcuka 2 years ago |

Some pragmatic and short term advice:

1. It is hard to explain not being able to land a job for 36 months for a Python backend developer, even if you are below average as you said, or too focused on a niche industry. Unless you have very high standards and if you are willing to work for a not-too-fancy company for industry average or slightly below salary, you should have found one.

One thing comes to mind is this has nothing to do with your skills, but you are just unable to sell yourself. Unfortunately this is another skill you will need. I would contact some friends who are experienced with recruiting people (doesn't have to be in the software industry, but it helps) and ask them to do a mock interview with you to give you some feedback.

2. Technically speaking, Python is one of the better backgrounds you can have:

  - I assume that you already know how to use git. If not, learn it too.

  - I would simply watch a few online courses on how to implement REST APIs with Python (start with Django REST Framework) as that's what many Python backend jobs expect.

  - Make sure that you know how to interact with containers (at least Docker).

  - Kubernetes is nice but it is not unusual not to have any experience with it, so I wouldn't spend much time on it. Also not everyone uses it.

3. You should always apply to jobs, and not wait 6 months before you apply to the next one. It's a numbers game, so don't get discouraged. Also remember that the company may not even actually have an open position when they post a job ad. Sometimes it's done just to meet some potential candidates for future positions.

jacknews 2 years ago | |

"It is hard to explain not being able to land a job for 36 months for a Python backend developer"

Assuming the python ecosystem is not that much different from ruby/rails, C/unix, etc, no it's not. Especially for anyone even slightly unusual, ie anyone not in their 20, maybe 30s at a stretch, with a CS degree, living in a western nation, a continuous employment record, etc, etc.

ttymck 2 years ago | |

Have you gone through interviews in the past 3 years? Nothing surprises me any more. Software hiring is fundamentally broken.

VirusNewbie 2 years ago |

>I'm a below average programmer with around 7yr of experience.

Sounds like every PM i've ever worked with!

1attice 2 years ago |

I'd do technical writing. Maybe instead of aiming for FT, aim for a few bits of contract work. Then use those to burnish your portfolio (or start one.)

Advantages of technical writing:

1. You get to spend your time playing with things, asking questions, talking to engineers, and, therefore, learning.

2. Depending on what you're writing, you may get to do some coding along the way.

3. You make a valuable, urgently-needed contribution to the world, for even when they can write, most engineers don't write, and the result is that most workplaces are saturated with so-called 'tribal knowledge.' Not only does this waste an engineer's time (explaining and re-explaining how a thing works,) but it also means that people who fail to ask for or receive help never learn how a thing works. This has all sorts of knock-on effects, monocultures and ingroup/outgroup dynamics among them. Yet you can write this fate away, if you can find an employer who recognizes the importance of documentation.

4. Which is not to say you'll be recognized or celebrated. Writing, these days, is a humble pursuit. But the impact you have will be significant, even if no one traces it back to you, and that can be be its own satisfaction (and also, résumé talking point.) And helping change the world for the better -- even just a tiny part of it -- can greatly improve mental health.

5. Once you get in the swing of writing, apply it to your stress/depression/anxiety (or however you want to characterize it -- that feeling.) Keep a journal. I know this feels like being given a teaspoon and told to excavate a cavern --- your mental health struggle sounds like it has its roots in life challenges that are genuinely stressful, rather than the putative 'chemical imbalance' sort of anxiety/depression. And a pen is no magic wand -- it cannot erase your debts, or restore your sense of ease.

But it can open up a bit of wiggle room. A space to turn the thoughts around.

I also recommend long walks and cooking.

6. When you're feeling a bit better, start applying to more jobs. You can do it. <3 You should be able to apply to one or two every day, and take a couple interviews a week. You got this.

Signed,

A currently un-depressed ("pressed?"), non-anxious ("enxious?"), and happily-employed engineer, who was not that way 12 months ago.

P.S. talk to a therapist. IANAT, IANAD.

P.P.S. if you're not already on them, and your doctor thinks it's ok, take antidepressants. They are symptom relief, but again, you're looking for wiggle room.

dave1999x 2 years ago |

Interviews suck. They're also a skill to be learned. Try to get several in succession. Reflect and learn from each. By 5-6 you'll get a job!

librasteve 2 years ago |

don’t fall in love with your job, it will not love you back and will one day hurt you

nprateem 2 years ago |

Get counselling/therapy

devwastaken 2 years ago |

"It's not about your hands"

peter_d_sherman 2 years ago |

Hi Hansor -- shoot me an email (peter.d.sherman@gmail.com) introduce yourself -- and I'll try to help you out!

What I'm going to tell you (but I'll try to summarize here!) is

No two employers are the same!

That is, if you go to 10,000 interviews -- no two employers will be the same!

No two employers will be the same in terms of:

-Interviewers' personalities

-Interview questions

-Previous experience expectations

-Job Expectations

-Salary

etc., etc.

In other words, if you have no other barometer, no other tool, no other filter condition available to you other than to apply for as many jobs as possible, and taking as many interviews as you can get (and as I'll explain if you email me, there are many tools that can help, both seen and unseen, both readily available and yet-to-be-realized -- but I can't enumerate/explicate/elaborate these concepts here for lack of space!), then minimally speaking, No two employers will be the same.

In other words, it's a numbers (statistical!) game!

Compare to dating, compare to sales...

Those are also statistical, AKA numbers games!

That is, the more "chaff" you can sort through -- the more "wheat" you can find.

Phrased another way, the more Willy Wonka candy bars you can open -- the greater your chance for finding a golden ticket!

But you will probably not need to go to ten million job interviews to generate a winner!

In the real world, in the absence of other factors which change the statistics; which change the odds -- 20 (twenty!) -- is a good number!

That's because there's something called "The Law Of 20"... basically in the absence of other factors which will change the odds, statistically if you go to 20 completely random people with a proposition (or groups -- in this case, the groups are hiring companies, employers) -- then on average, 18 of those will tell you to "go to hell" in no uncertain terms (AKA, give you a "no" answer with your proposition, in this case, for them to hire you), 1 of those will say "maybe", and one of them will be an enthusiastic "yes".

You go with the person or group (in this case employer) -- that's the enthusiastic "yes" vote.

This is, incidentally how Venture Capitalists do business -- for every 20 investments in companies, they know that on average 18 companies will fail.

One will moderately succeed but not pay off the other investments -- but one company (the 20th!) will be so wildly successful that it will completely pay off the lost investments in the other 18 companies AND make a ton of additional money!

So that's the "Law of 20"...

Shoot me an email (peter.d.sherman@gmail.com) (if it takes more than 3 days for me to respond then you've hit my spam filter -- don't send any links or email addresses in your email -- just a simple hello and greeting should suffice!)

Or reply with your email or some other contact method here on HN...

Anyway, I'm looking forward to meeting you!

-Peter

aurareturn 2 years ago |

I was thinking the other day about how people recommend Vitamin D for depression. It does make sense.

It seems a lot harder to get depression when people used to be outside all day in the sun. I always feel happier and brighter when I'm in the sun.