VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'(businessinsider.com) |
VC Says Half of Google Staff Do 'No Real Work'(businessinsider.com) |
I suspect he doesn't have to work and does so anyways...
in other words, am not surprised by a vc -- let alone an Andreesen adjacent -- uttering thusly on any given bait-thirsty "news" site, bizz-nuss or otherwise?
We have a VC here whining that a business with one of the most exceptional margins in modern capitalism is… not returning enough to shareholders?
And those pesky workers are to blame?
The buck here stops with management. If the people with power in your organisation are powerless to ship features, innovation and value… aren’t they the problem?
Get leadership that works. Hire a board that knows how to innovate.
95% of VC knob-ends do no real work. They spend other people’s money on other people’s businesses and help themselves to profits other people have generated.
Google probably is too big, but don’t blame Jane from Legal or Deepak from Accounts
I mean this is quite common even without VC involved... the only thing is you have to make sure to spend that money on the _right_ other businesses to get things done properly.
Thought experiment: What if all "jobs" that aim to annoy computer users with ads, and provide "services" to do that, are BS. What if VC that fund these surveillance companies are BS, too. What does the computer user not funded by advertising and doing real work think of Google staff.
https://bcn.boulder.co.us/~neal/ietf/verisign-abuse.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_toolbar
https://www.wired.com/2008/02/webmasters-accuse-the-google-t...
https://www.virusbulletin.com/blog/2007/05/google-stashing-a...
https://www.computerworld.com/article/1566104/google-dell-br...
http://umbrella.cisco.com/blog/opendns-google-dns
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/canadian-firm-cau...
1. "former" engineers and non-specialists - they tend to sit in meetings, try to sound important, pontificate about "better ways" but never seem to do real work. Then when SHTF they seem to have all the knowledge to make the problem go away super fast. Maybe SHTF never happens to you.
2. Middle managers and HR abstraction layers - again, more meetings, demanding reports, passing down all this make-work, etc etc. Then when an audit, leadership change, layoff, or program collapse happens, they magically have all the context in mind to pivot the team into a new area so they aren't butchered.
3. Project management / systems engineers. My god do they cause headaches with their overly-complicated, under-knowledgeable "designs" and cross-functional requirements. And they'll sit in standups / scrums without any contributions and just nod along half the time. Or worse, they'll pass along 3rd party statements of what the system should do from "product" that make no sense, get feedback, dissapear, and repeat. Then you realize that your execs, investors, and customers are seeing a totally different view of the system, and thank god you don't have to try to talk to those troublemakers.
Over the last 10 years I've realized a lot of the bullshit jobs that you can do without - you probably could, until you can't. "Cut the fat" is a great corporate euphemism, but the biological analogy fails if there's a corporate version of "famine".
Let's be honest, if we're judging people by tangible improvements, process cranking, or institutional knowledge, the most valuable people are the admins, not even the engineers. Half the time an engineer is sitting around thinking or drinking all the coffee.
If your firefighters are spending more than ~10% of their time doing their actual job, then the odds of them needing to be in two places at once reaches unacceptable levels.
Old fashioned secretaries are similar, if less extreme. An executive secretary's main job is not to do secretarial work, but to be available at a moment's notice. If they're busy, they're not generally available.
Firefighters do a lot more than just fight fires.
That might also fit into your model of corporate participation pretty well.
lol
I think it's more than that
I feel like the tech industry has spend the last year or so over-correcting and is now burning the furniture to heat the cabin. Slashing headcount is fine if you're also willing to scale back the things that headcount was expected to build/maintain. Now you have teams that are stretched thin just keeping the lights on. It's not an environment that's going to be conducive to innovation.
The only positive I see in all this is that many of these big companies are now much more vulnerable to competition. Unfortunately I feel like the appetite to take on the big guys just isn't there right now - it's definitely a muscle that's atrophied in the startup space over the last decade.
Is that supposed to sound like a bad thing?
> tangible improvements, process cranking, or institutional knowledge, the most valuable people are the admins
Valuable like a splinter in your big toe. "It hurts when I move it!"
or you might say the culinary analogy turns into a biological analogy
You'd expect that a VC of all people would appreciate the fact that in high-tech spaces, many new ventures are required to find one unicorn, with absolute failure rates of about 90%,[1] and Angellist giving 1:40 odds (2.5%) likelihood of seed-stage startups reaching US$1b valuation ("unicorn").[2]
Google has hit paydirt once with advertising, and spent most of its subsequent life either reinforcing that status (with varying levels of legality) or seeking out alternative hits, with ... stunningly little success. But then, nobody else has had any real success there either, save Facebook.
There are also the roles within organisations which are principally risk mitigation. I had the insight a few years back that ops is essentially a risk-management role.[3] In one of my earlier mentions of this on HN someone responded that that is in fact how Google treats its SRE role, and is a point emphasised in its fairly well-known book on the topic.
Another point that's become glaringly clear over the past few years is that efficiency and resilience are contrasting points on the optimisation space. I'm not sure if that's one-dimensional or multi (think "fast, cheap, good"), but it does have multiple optima depending on the specified criteria.
And ... in some spaces, notably pharmaceuticals (very large search space, very high search costs, long-term exploration), a business model which has emerged is to spin out new-molecule / treatment development indepenently of the majors (Pfizer, J&J, Roche, Novartis, Merck, AstrZeneca, GSK, etc.), either as controlled subsidiaries or independent ventures, and then aquire the successes. Contrast other R&D-heavy models such as 3M, Edison Mfg. Co., DuPont, etc. There's also the hit-factory / tentpole model of film, music,[4] and print (a small number of hits supports a much larger mid-list). I'd argue that much of the start-up and established-firm tech space has come to resemble these models, for much the same underlying dynamic logic.
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Notes:
1. <https://explodingtopics.com/blog/startup-failure-stats> <https://www.luisazhou.com/blog/startup-failure-statistics/>
2. <https://web.archive.org/web/20210716175009/https://www.angel...>
3. <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27701929>, <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29152832>, and <https://archive.is/HknlO>
4. I've discussed this and referenced Charles Perrow's excellent treatment here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31254795>. Perrow's discussion is in Complex Organizations (1972, 1985), pp. 186--187. <https://archive.org/search.php?query=Complex+organizations+:...>
So, he doesn't really understand Google's dysfunction and is just guessing at the causes?
In my opinion the money is better placed in the pockets of workers not investors.
Also, the supreme irony of a VC saying this.
I can think of ways I would have approached some specific instances differently (e.g Waymo), but the existence of speculative projects isn't evidence of waste. The specific callout of retirement accounts is strange too. I'm sure many institutional investors are backed by 401ks but is that actually representative? As a wealthy investor I'm guessing he's thinking more about himself and his dividend than other's retirement accounts.
If you're not working on, or supporting, the company's product, you MAY have a BS job.
Good example: Twitter, which functioned well after layoffs of 80% or so (the owner's persona has damaged the revenue and reputation extensively, but the product itself has been fine). They're maybe the boldest, but hardly the only company in the past couple of years to do mass layoffs and not collapse at the core.
With Google of course, many projects are at some point considered core, to be dismissed later, so the line between "product" and "BS" is blurry and changing.
Very few people work on weekend which tells you you need way less people to keep lights on - so keeping lights on with 20% of eng is not surprising.
A lot of smart people spent years trying to make a resilient system and then everyone claims they aren't needed when it doesn't immediately crumble.
There are also many examples of huge gaps in content moderation, customer reps, and other "useless" functions that has lead to it's decay other than just it's unhinged CEO.
Twitter swallowed a poison pill, and we're just seeing some of the onset of sickness.
I doubt they're referring to engineers.
This describes none of the multi-fund behemoths, e.g. Andreessen, Sequoia, et cetera. They have an entire caste of VC associates whose productivity is measured by the number of meetings they take; they're literally professional time wasters.
Q: How many people work at $large_org
A: About half of them!
<https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/314049/scale-by-geo...>
Without "probably", it sounds like he has insider information and can say it as a fact. With "probably", it shows that this is an educated, yet falsifiable opinion.
Seems like a common fallacy to just jump in like Elon Musk and start trimming out the perceived false jobs and end up with a company that is weaker than it was originally. I've no doubt the VC is has a case but it's a lot hairer than a simple sentence alludes to. I feel like I end up back where I started -- in that I simply don't know or lack the info to make that call -- many jobs could simply be redundant but redundancy isn't always a bad thing -- espeically in massive tech companies with staff leaving for greener pastures on a whim.
Isn’t Google pretty open that it doesn’t expect most of these to succeed?
This statement has “shut down the R&D as it doesn’t make money” vibes.
What bothers me more is how they fumbled repeatedly on conventional projects like chat apps.
Maybe Google needs to invest in crystal balls?
When I worked in big tech, I spent a lot of time working on stuff that didn’t ship, or shipped but never got traction, which ended up providing no benefit to the company. This is IMO largely the responsibility of management, although there’s certainly an idea that line workers have a responsibility to find impactful projects/teams to work on.
Google hired a bunch of people to keep them out of the hands of others. Those people now sit around and write papers on useless topics...
Engineers generally like to work on meaningful projects. Sometimes we do get sidetracked on pet projects like building a better database design or whatnot, but the time spent on things like that pales in comparison to the scale of pet projects imposed from above.
Or projects, or entire product divisions, that were just badly researched, badly planned, and never should have been signed off in the first place.
Seriously though, how out-of-touch do you have to be to think that entire organizations full of smart people are so incompetent as to have 100% bloat?
Could you lay off 50% of Google today and still have a functional, competitive product tomorrow? Yes.
Would you still have a functional, competitive product in 2 years? No.
Engineers are building and maintaining the product, SREs are keeping the jobs, servers and infrastructure humming, sales is bringing in new clients and keep existing clients happy, marketing is... OK maybe Google does need a marketing overhaul...Deep cuts will also signal to employees and competitors that blood is in the water. Any remaining loyalty would evaporate and MSFT, AAPL, AMZN, & META would all be eager to scoop up that talent to build competing products to Google Search & Ads and bolster their cloud & AI offerings.
Disclosure: Google employee
Oh no, think of the poor retired shareholders!
Even if you don't own Google stock (or even any stock) directly, you likely have exposure to it because it's in the S&P 500, which is used as foundational financial product in many contexts.
- Maintaining old stuff
- Rewriting old stuff
- Writing new stuff
You can't do w/o most of the first, most of the second is a waste, and maybe a quarter of the last is worthwhile. I've always had the feeling google isn't filled with a lot of the first, as it's just not cool.
Of course it would be silly for an outsider without any real knowledge of their complex operations to hazard such a guess.
Management isn't involved in actual functioning of the company, just in how it's organized. And of course, their main skill always turns out to be "organizing" it to their own advantage. Actual good ideas WILL lead to reorganizing work, and rearranging the management deck chairs. So management always turns out to be radically against those.
The engineers at the bottom are not just a necessity, they're THE source of revenue.
But guess what happens when you "trim the fat". Management is really good at keeping themselves in a job, and don't care about sacrificing the bottom. Meaning the worst possible outcome, according to these investors, and I'm 100% sure this happened at Google: the proportion of managers goes up when the layoffs happen. MORE organizing, less work.
Think how much money all the day-traders put together make (probably less than zero) versus someone like Warren Buffett (a lot more than zero!), or the many successful owner-operated or founder-owned companies out there.
<https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300078152/seeing-like-a-...>
A system in which every resource is 100% utilized has no slack or adaptability.
- everybody should have the opportunity to retire
- that means they have to save & invest
- that means corporations have a moral duty to do their best
- if an old person entrusted my company with the financial results of their life's work, I'd feel a lot of pressure to make good on the implied promise that I won't just take the money and put my feet up
Engineers are also good at explaining why their system or feature needs to be three times more complex than it really needs to be. Or why last year's tool or framework needs to be replaced with a new one. As an engineer I've seen this bullshit my whole career.
Everyone believes someone else is squeezing off their work. In tech, I've heard it from founders and sales about engineers; engineers about everyone else, including every other engineer; the person who keeps the shitshow of a culture hanging by a thread; the lawyers who keeps the company from being fined into oblivion; et cetera.
If there is a summary to draw from it, it's that the uselessness is probably concentrated in the person complaining and doing nothing about it (whether due to impulse or ability).
So basically this PE guy?
:)