Erlang/OTP 27 Highlights(erlang.org) |
Erlang/OTP 27 Highlights(erlang.org) |
C/C++/C#/Python/...: "You want concurrency? Sure. We have OS processes, and threads, and this cool new async doohickey. Pick whatever you fancy! Oh, but by the way: you can't use very many processes cos they're _really_ heavyweight. You can have lots more threads, but not too many, and beware corrupting the shared state. Asyc though, you can have _loads_ of things going on at once. Just, y'know, don't mix the colours up".
With Erlang/Elixir it's just:
"You want concurrency? Sure, here's Erlang processes. You can have millions of them. Oh, you need to communicate between them? Yep, no probs, messages and mailboxes. What's that? Error handling? Yep, got that covered too - meet the Supervisors"
--
[1] Counting Elixir as "Erlang" in this context given it also sits on the BEAM VM.
Functional programming languages: Unlimited good abstractions of unknown cost
I don't feel like there's a great third option. Go is pretty good.
e.g.:
var delay = Task.Delay(3_000);
var tasks = Enumerable
.Repeat(async () => await delay, 1_000_000)
.Select(f => f());
Console.WriteLine("Waiting for 1M tasks...");
await Task.WhenAll(tasks);
Console.WriteLine("Finished!");
edit: consider suggesting a comparable example in Erlang before downvoting :)Erlang is a nice piece of software.
However, let us not dismiss the massive progress the world of distributed software has made since 1990s _not_ involving Erlang too.
Look at the scale at which we _reliably_ access video, audio, email, messaging, e-commerce/trading on distributed systems around the world ! At high reliability too ! Google, Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Microsoft, NYSE/NASDAQ, ... -- Imagine the millions or even billions of computer systems working, cooperating in various private and public "clouds".
Apart from a few prominent systems here and there (e.g. erlang at WhatsApp), most of these systems _DONT_ use erlang. For various reasons Erlang has _not_ been chosen by thousands of software architects when they choose to build their next distributed system. Even though erlang lets us build a distributed system with lots of properties out-of-the box easily, let's talk about some failings of Erlang:
- Erlang is not statically typed language unlike Java, Rust, C/C++ etc. This means an erlang compiler cannot create code that will run as fast as the aforementioned languages. The compiler simply just does not have that much information available during compile time
- Not being statically typed also makes it a bit more difficult to refactor the codebase. Would you be able to refactor a 1 million line Rust code base more easily or a 100,000 line erlang code base (even if you have used Dialyzer). My money is on Rust.
- Not being statically typed also means that you cannot verify or mathematically prove properties about your system using various techniques as easily
TL;DR -- A small team can build a highly capable system on erlang quite easily in 2024. That small team would probbly take longer if they used Rust/C++/Java because those languages are more low level and take more time for development. But if you can throw some $$ on the project, in the long run a system built in Rust/C++/JVM can run more efficiently (and be maintained more easily) on a fewer machines using specialized code written in Rust/C++/Java etc. In other words it's not everyday you need to build a distributed system -- when you do, it makes sense to specialize and build it on a technology stack that may be a bit lower-level and statically typed.
This comment is already too long enough.
I like Erlang, it has some nice properties but when building distributed systems other technology stacks can also offer some other great advantages too.
> the codebase. Would you be able to refactor a 1 million line Rust code base
> more easily or a 100,000 line erlang code base (even if you have used
> Dialyzer). My money is on Rust.
I have found that refactoring erlang is NOT like refactoring code in other languages, non trivial refactoring in rust is a LOT more complicated however I do understand the fuzzy feelings you get when type-safe code compiles correctly.
Most erlang refactoring that I see needing to be done is simply reapplying a different pattern to the gen_server or distributing load differently. I believe if refactoring is a "complex problem", the development team had not designed with OTP behaviors in mind. My view may be because I have limited experience in refactoring my erlang due to being a solo developer and my mind is stuck in OTP land, please correct me if you've experienced it differently, I feel that you're perhaps painting the picture a little unfairly there.
If programmers need type-safeness for BEAM and I believe Gleam Language supplies the security blanket that other languages provide. From my limited experience it does NOT provide any additional "speed" (I expect there are not many compiler optimisations that end up down on the BEAM level) however it does give you that level of confidence that you're not going to be passing garbage data through your functions.
I haven't taken anything you have said as a personal (or even against erlang), thank you for the discussion points.
Having been stuck in the js world my whole career, it’s really cool to watch a community that’s rooted in collaboration instead of competition.
I did write this, which is a port of the erlang design principals for gleam:
https://github.com/wmealing/gleam-otp-design-principals/blob...
I had to look up it's usage though, because I'm new to both Erlang/BEAM and Elixir.
https://chiroptical.dev/posts/2024-03-04-erlang-maybe_expr.h...
You can use it to execute a series of functions returning `either`-ish tuples and build up a railway oriented program.
ouch
Looks a lot like Elixir's. The previous one was functional, but a little barebones. A little colour, hyperlinking and syntax highlighting goes a long way. Also, navigation seems to be improved. I always lost my way navigating across Erlang modules to find a specific function.
The entire Erlang/OTP ecosystem got a boost of mind share with the explosion in popularity of Elixir, and it's so nice to see it improve at breakneck pace [1], with some cross-pollination between Erlang itself and Elixir. The ideas of Armstrong, Virding and Williams are in many ways far ahead than a lot of mainstream languages, and they were long overdue a revival under the spotlight.
Keep up the good work!
1: yet, it's still the most rock-solid platform to build services upon, and you can quote me on that.
It’s really a win for both, and I love it.
It could probably be argued that this is simply acknowledging reality, and that C++ lets you get away with murder if you want to. But maybe that’s what I want.
I think a good feature for C++ would be a “safe” (or “verified”?) block or method decorator that could enforce some set of restrictions on semantics, e.g. single mutable borrow. The problem is that those functionalities are part of the compiler APIs and not standardized.
The Rust compiler is also not standardized, but they can get away with it.
So, in interest of matching this code I wrote an example of spawning 1_000_000 processes that each wait for 3 seconds and then exit.
This is Elixir, but this is trivial to do on the BEAM and could easily be done in Erlang as well:
#!/usr/bin/env elixir
[process_count | _] = System.argv()
count = String.to_integer(process_count)
IO.puts "spawning #{count} processes"
1..count
|> Enum.map(fn _c ->
Task.async(fn ->
Process.sleep(3_000)
end)
end)
|> Task.await_many()
The default process limit is 262,000-ish for historical reasons but it is easy to override when running the script: » time elixir --erl "+P 1000001" process_demo.exs 1000000
spawning 1000000 processes
________________________________________________________
Executed in 6.85 secs fish external
usr time 11.79 secs 60.00 micros 11.79 secs
sys time 15.81 secs 714.00 micros 15.81 secs
I tried to get dotnet set up on my mac to run the code in your example to provide a timing comparison, but it has been a few years since I wrote C# professionally and I wasn't able to quickly finish the required boilerplate set up to run it.Ultimately, although imo the BEAM performs quite well here, I think these kind of showy-but-simple tests miss the advantages of what OTP provides: unparalleled introspection abilities in production on a running system. Unfortunately, it is more difficult to demonstrate the runtime tools in a small code example.
I have adjusted the example to match yours and be more expensive on .NET - previous one was spawning 1 million tasks waiting for the same asynchronous timer captured by a closure, each with own state machine, but nonetheless as cheap as it gets - spawning an asynchronously yielding C# task still costs 96B[0] even if we count state machine box allocation (closer to 112B in this case iirc).
To match your snippet, this now spawns 1M tasks that wait the respective 1M asynchronous timers, approximately tripling the allocation traffic.
var count = int.Parse(args[0]);
Console.WriteLine($"spawning {count} tasks");
var tasks = Enumerable
.Range(0, count)
.Select(async _ => await Task.Delay(3_000));
await Task.WhenAll(tasks);
In order to run this, you only need an SDK from https://dot.net/download. You can also get it from homebrew with `brew install dotnet-sdk` but I do not recommend daily driving this type of installation as Homebrew using separate path sometimes conflicts with other tooling and breaks SDK packs discovery of .NET's build system should you install another SDK in a different location.After that, the setup process is just
mkdir CSTasks && cd CSTasks
dotnet new console --aot
echo '{snippet above}' > Program.cs
dotnet publish -o .
time ./CSTasks
Note: The use of AOT here is to avoid it spamming files as the default publish mode is "separate file per assembly + host-provided runtime" which is not as nice to use (historical default). Otherwise, the impact on the code execution time is minimal. Keep in mind that upon doing the first AOT compilation, it will have to pull IL AOT compiler from nuget feed.Once done, you can just nuke the `/usr/local/share/dotnet` folder if you don't wish to keep the SDK.
Either way, thank you for putting together your comment - Elixir does seem like a REPL-friendly language[1] in many ways similar to F#. It would be impolite for me to not give it a try as you are willing to do the same for .NET.
[0]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/performance-improvemen...
[1]: there exist dotnet fsi as well as dotnet-script which allow using F# and C# for shell files in a similar way, but I found the startup latency of the latter underwhelming even with the cached compilation it does. It's okay, but not sub-100ms an sub-20ms you get with properly compiled JIT and AOT executables.
CSP, while is nice on paper, has the same issues as e.g. partitioning in Kafka, just at a much lower level where it becomes critical bottleneck - you can't trivially "fork" and "join" the flows of execution, which well-implemented async model enables.
It's not "what about x" but rather how you end up applying the concurrent model in practice, and C# tasks allow you to idiomatically mix in concurrency and/or parallelism in otherwise regular code (as you can see in the example).
I'm just clarifying on the parent comment that concurrency in .NET is not like in Java/C++/Python (even if the latter does share similarities, there are constraints of Python itself).
It depends on the context. In some contexts absolutely not. If we share memory, and these tasks start modifying global data or taking locks and then crash, can those tasks be safely restarted, can we reason about the state of the whole node any longer?
> CSP, while is nice on paper
Not sure if Erlang's module is CSP or Actor's (it started as neither actually) but it's not just nice on paper. We have nodes with millions of concurrent processes running comfortably, I know they can crash or I can restart various subsets of them safely. That's no small thing and it's not just paper-theoretical.
It comes down to the kind of lock being used. Scenarios which require strict data sharing handle them as they see fit - for recoverable states the lock can simply be released in a `finally` block. Synchronous/blocking `lock` statement does this automatically. All concurrent containers offered by standard library either do not throw or their exceptions indicate a wrong operation/failed precondition/etc. and can be recovered from (most exceptions in C# are, in general).
This does not preclude the use of channel/mailbox and other actor patterns (after all, .NET has Channel<T> and ConcurrentQueue<T> or if you would like to go from 0 to 100 - Akka and Orleans, and the language offers all the tools to write your own fast implementation should you want that).
Overall, I can see value of switching to Erlang if you are using a platform/language with much worse concurrency primitives, but with F# and C#, personally, Erlang and Elixir appear to be a sidegrade as .NET applications tend to scale really well with cores even when implemented sloppily.
Task exceptions can simply be handled via try-catch at the desired level. Millions of concurrently handled tasks is not that high of a number for .NET's threadpool. It's one thing among many that is "nothingburger" in .NET ecosystem which somehow ends up being sold as major advantage in other languages (you can see it with other features too - Nest.js as a "major improvement" for back-end, while it just looks like something we had 10 years ago, "structured concurrency" which is simple task interleaving, etc.).
It's a different, lower-level model, but it comes with the fact that you are not locked into particular (even if good) way of doing concurrency in Erlang.
This provides value in a few ways:
- conceptually: it is very simple. i.e., the garbage collection of one process is not logically tied to the garbage collection of another.
- practically: it lends itself well to low-latency operations, where the garbage collection of one process is able to happen concurrently to the the normal operation of another process.
Please note that I am not claiming this model is superior to any other. That is of course situational. I am just trying to be informative.
This is a good post with more information, if you're interested: https://hamidreza-s.github.io/erlang%20garbage%20collection%...
How can this improve predictability of GC impact?
You can for example configure a process to have enough initial memory so as not to ever run into GC, this is especially useful if you have a process that does a specific task before terminating. Once terminated the entire process memory is reclaimed.