Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent(tradearabia.com) |
Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent(tradearabia.com) |
I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of completely incoherent architecture, even culturally it seem to have just adopted the worst consumerism of the west and transplanted it into their native culture. I am not sure what money could even compell me to live there.
If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.
Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live the US is definitely my preferred choice.
I'm not really gay but hetflex/polyamorous and a bit queer and I would not be comfortable being myself there either. Even in the bad areas in Holland I get slurs thrown at me.
Of course that's the life plan for most folks who move for work.
Maybe some of those Europeans are from Russia or Belarus, and are not welcomed in the US.
In fact I've declined to visit even when I've had the opportunity to do a business trip though there wasn't much pressure on it. I could just go or leave it, no strings attached and I was happy to leave it. I'm very socialist, atheist and progressive, it just isn't my kinda place.
In fact I often get recruiters pushing me relocation offers though I clearly state in my profile that I only want to work in my city or 100% remote. Even if it's an amazing career opportunity I don't care. I get one a week or so that still tries, comes with working in AI for a major enterprise I guess. They're all scrambling for people now.
I wouldn't want to be in that kind of role anyway where the goal is to "Do something with AI QUICK that makes investors happy, we don't care what it is!!!". I don't play that game.
The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment more than pays for itself.
If there is a healthcare system that I’m envious of, it’s those of some East Asian countries.
I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up being not only less expensive, but more importantly - also massively faster and more efficient to get treatment.
Heck, I don’t know many, but I know there are Asian-Europeans that make the same trip too.
>homelessness
In Germany the state guarantees you housing. Yet it has a far bigger homelessness problem than the US.
Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home ownership evaporate away from them as costs skyrocket and rent-seeking corporations snipe all affordable stock with can only offers.
The US is a depressing place that kind of sucks if you're not coming here for a high-end tech job or as a rich celebrity.
But overall yeah things are fine. Not seeing great pies in the sky for our future but no big sinkholes either.
Here in Spain healthcare is still worry-free and included in my taxes. People live life at a slower pace and enjoy it more. I don't need a car because public transport is much better than it was even in Amsterdam. 20 bucks a month covers all my travel needs. I make probably half of what I'd make in Holland but these things are so much more important. Besides, cost of living is so much cheaper here too. Just seeing prices in the supermarket in Holland makes me roll my eyes.
Not everyone puts money above everything and especially that's what I see in other EU expats too. We just want enough to live well. It's mainly the US expats here that are always chasing the extra few percent, job-hopping etc. They always have that drive to be #1. Nice for them but it's a bit exhausting too. Way too much so for me. Most of my US friends have moved to the better paying EU countries as a result.
I'm also very progressive/LGBTQ+-friendly and I would never ever even consider visiting Saudi Arabia for work. I would literally refuse. Let alone consider living there. Even if I could make 10x my wage lol. Same with Dubai. No chance. What would I do there all day? Sit in my fancy apartment watching international TV?
If by folks, you mean straight men... because I sure as hell wouldn't consider moving if I was gay or a woman. Just this week Ireland had to pressure UAE to return an Irish woman who authorities imprisoned for "attempting suicide" after she was injured because of domestic violence.
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/10/dubai-drops-at...
Straight men account for a large portion of workforce. So might not be a bad strategy for UAE / SA to lure those.
My cousin worked there quite a while back so things may have moved on but 2 experiences he told me where reasons I wouldn't ever work there.
1. His wife was involved in an accident with an immigrant worker. She was fine, they weren't. She tried to insist on the Dubai police calling an ambulance. They flatly refused as they didn't value the immigrant workers life and threatened her with arrest and jail if she didn't leave immediately, on the basis if she hadn't been in the country the accident wouldn't have happened.
2. They and their other friends had pacts that if either couple both died they would immediately take their children out of the country, as otherwise they became wards of the state, which is almost impossible to reverse.
Corruption is rife too but the cultural differences and consequences are if anything more significant.
About that same time another UAE (Nahyan) shaykh demonstrated his displeasure to a business partner by having him driven into the desert, buried up to the neck, and (nonfatally) run over with a Range Rover while being videotaped. When that business partner (an American) attempted to press charges, the Shaykh was acquitted and the businessman convicted in absentia for blackmail.
I've had more issues and fewer legal recourses with Gulf clients and partners than anywhere else in the world (including the Bilad al-Sham/Levantine region of the Mideast), while doing less work with them than almost anywhere else, so I'll admit to being biased, but it really is a region where the rule of law is, depending on the context, highly personalized or outsourced to religious authorities, and presented without any of the procedural due processes you're used to.
They are essentially on the right trajectory.
No kids, USA hands down.
One kid, comparable.
Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible.
Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work.
Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare.
Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.
I have many European friends here who say they won't go back to Europe (Germany, England, Belgium) because of the costs of owning a house and having a family.
Software Engineer salaries range from middle to upper class in US terms. While it's not necessarily easy to have kids in the low end of the range, I'd say it's not too hard either and I know many people who do it (even in California).
But hey, for those who think and keep repeating in public that the US is a crime-ridden wasteland where you have no healthcare, no work life-balance and can't have kids: just don't come here and the problem is solved. Interestingly, TFA is exactly about the European exodus... to Arab countries, of all places.
What? Anyone can do so if they wanted. There are plenty of people with 3+ kids in america.
> but not an issue for Europe.
And yet much of europe has a lower fertility rate.
> Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses
What are you spending 50 to 100k on?
Mandatory social insurance, basically my taxes, paid for bulk of it.
High level of professionalism, high standard of care, very little red tape and no unreasonable waiting.
Out of pocket it is usually close to zero.
There are other things that are hard to judge. I have guaranteed paid holidays and sick days. People serving me in restaurants have a living(ish) wage without tips, and also have guaranteed sick days (it's absolutely disgusting to think people could be coming sick to work, especially in the food industry!). There are higher food standards, and there aren't subsidized processed corn derivatives added to everything. I have plenty of consumer protections (over here saying "I know my EU rights" in the Apple Store magically gets you an extra year of warranty).
I can live in many cities that have competent public transport, and basic shops and amenities within walking or biking distance, with roads prioritizing pedestrian safety. I could earn more and buy a luxury car, but I can already take a train, and read or have a nap while it's "fully self-driving" to the destination, bypassing traffic.
Taxation. At 2x or 3x in France you'd already be at 41% income tax bracket. Then 45%.
And of course a country like France doesn't just tax income: it taxes everything, to death.
You can be making 2x that of someone in Spain, if you pay 41% on that additional money, suddenly it doesn't really like 2x anymore.
In the UAE (say, Dubai: a very thought after destination by many) there was no income tax and if there's one now, it's mild (I think 0% on the first $125 K then 9% on money above that).
France is not a net importer of talent. It's exporting a shitload of engineers to SV and the UAE. France is however a net importer of underqualified people, many of whom do not find any work, putting a strain on the economy and giving politicians the idea of taxing people who work in France even more.
In 2023 the state's income was much lower than expected, which prompted Bruno Lemaire, the economy and finance minister, to cheat and fudge the numbers to try to hide the gigantic hole. French senate called him for it.
Yup: the situation in France is that bad they now have to cheat on the numbers they present, like Greece did (and we know how it ended up for Greece).
> This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe.
Seen the current political situation in France, I don't know who'd be foolish enough to want to move there at the moment.
Any numbers on the visa for underqualified people? I'd be surprised if this statmeent is even remotely true for legal immigration.
At the same time, I hear about IT people living in an American metropoly, earning much more than I do, and supposedly struggling with bills. I wonder if the cost of living differences are that huge, or maybe I just have low standards, or is it something different altogether.
So I think you can take money earned while living overseas back to most European countries without paying additional income tax.
OP says 50 to 100k, so probably they live in high cost of living area.
Thus Singapore, Dubai, 1900s Hong Kong, 1800s America are some of the most famous examples. Free market with no social services doesn't really exist much anymore so most the remaining examples of open borders are something approximating dictatorship, except maybe Argentina(in practice they have almost no enforcement of immigration).
*In theory
I'm sure that number has gone up over the last few years but I absolutely do not believe anyone is paying 100k for child care. Like maybe, maybe the highest-end of high end daycares around SF, NYC, DC, etc. would be clocking at at 60k, and for multiple kids.
That is 96k a year.
There are definitely a fair number of EU citizens exploiting this and UAE tax residency.
There's California and NYC. The rest is either economically depressed or a poor cultural fit. Sure, theres a few pockets of exceptions too, Pacific NW, Arizona, Colorado etc.
I work with some Canadians in Toronto. They’re always complaining how terribly slow and inefficient their healthcare system is.
I am by no means defending the US healthcare system as good. It’s not - it’s terrible.
I just wish that those here that want to see it improved/reformed would look across the Pacific, not the Atlantic (or the northern border) for what a truly good healthcare system looks like.
Because they got the scrap to pay for it and they can't quite get what they're looking for in Canada. There are private clinics here, too, where you can pay out-of-pocket or maybe with private insurance for treatment where you haven't gotten a referral from your family doctor (PCP), but if you're looking for something specific and fast, you're in basically the same boat as any American.
For example, my wife got a referral from our family doctor to what would basically be some local ENT for surgery on something that wasn't at all life-threatening but still needed to be dealt with. I'm pretty sure people from all over Canada come to see him and he's internationally-renowned, which I've gathered from him being out of the office for a few weeks to work out in Saudi Arabia and the UAE. He's got all these plaques on his wall for teaching at the university here here and in Saudi Arabia and such. I'm sure he is the cream-of-the-crop given that he's going to the other side of the world to do his thing. He just happened to be the guy that she got to see with just regular provincial health insurance. Also a totally lovely dude.
Compare this, too, to the the whole debacle about Americans having to buy Canadian insulin ...
> I work with some Canadians in Toronto. They’re always complaining how terribly slow and inefficient their healthcare system is.
Well, it is slow and inefficient compared to most things when people expect to get everything on-demand, and it is probably worth complaining about. I'm pretty sure it's mainly because there's a doctor shortage crisis here and there's a lot of factors that go into why that's the case. But having grown up in the states where my family had very little money and I didn't go to the doctor at all for probably 10 years, I'm very glad to be here and get to go to the doctor at all.
> I am by no means defending the US healthcare system as good. It’s not - it’s terrible.
No worries--just saying that it can be hard to weigh salary vs. amenities (or necessities?!) and especially that things can be better than they are in the US :)
> I just wish that those here that want to see it improved/reformed would look across the Pacific, not the Atlantic (or the northern border) for what a truly good healthcare system looks like.
For sure. Now I'm curious about how it works and if there are any issues in funding or doctor supply like there are uh ... everywher eelse
How many choose to use it, though, and specifically, how many are afraid to use it because of cost? I'd count "waiting for an appointment/life to line up to see someone 'in network'" that as "lucky enough to get treatment"
> I can also see practically any specialist next week....
It can be similarly the case in Canada if you pay out-of-pocket or with private insurance or travel, and people do the same in the US too.
Citation needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ho...
This usually cancels out the lower tax rates, and it has some key drawbacks: if anything interferes with your ability to stay employed, you lose coverage completely and have to hope that you’ll eventually qualify for public assistance, which can take quite a long time and will likely force you to find new providers, potentially with substantial travel requirements. The costs are 2-3 times higher, too, and medical expenses are a leading cause of bankruptcy.
Directly contradicts "The costs are 2-3 times higher". Especially not since a software dev makes significantly more money.
Software developers make somewhat more money but not enough so for this not to be a concern. If you’re getting hundreds of thousands of dollars more, of course, it’s a net win but if you’re not seeing such a stark difference it’s more debatable. If you’re not at the higher FAANG-tier level, costs for things like health and child care can close the gap considerably, especially if you or your family have less than perfect health and so the US option involves an unpaid second job haggling with insurance companies about coverage.
Citation needed.
