Psilocybin desynchronizes the human brain(nature.com) |
Psilocybin desynchronizes the human brain(nature.com) |
I'm not fully sure regarding the last sentence though. The important thing to know for those who have never experienced it and who have issues that could come out during the trip is that you need to care A LOT about set and setting. You should have an experienced person whom you fully trust and who can guide you through the experience. Don't do it on your own when you're in a bad state, that's pretty much the worst way to take psychedelics and basically asking for the trip to go wrong. And you'll want to avoid strangers as well unless you're super extroverted maybe.
Also, and that's my personal take, don't sign up to questionable retreats or scientific studies/therapies conducted by self-proclaimed experts who have never taken it themselves. Just because someone has a degree in psychology - a questionable science to begin with when you look at all the failed attempts to replicate the findings - it doesn't mean they understand how it feels to be on a psychedelic trip.
It's not a matter of more work.
Whatever feeling you had about this chair has changed. It use to represent a memory or a feeling from childhood. That's changed or is gone for better or worse.
That's how to perceive how it works.
If you are 'fucked' because you can't move on it will help. If you feel a lack of connections to things/people it could help form new ones or reduce what you currently have.
Removing emotional memories can be scary. Removing PTSD memories can be freeing.
This is of course not everyones story, many i know who took similar substances ended up in much worse positions.Some had even been doing the work to get better also. For the time being I think theres an element of luck, but i hope we figure out how to remove the luck component and make it a science.
The way I'd explain it Is that whatever loss function the mind uses to optimize the personality was stuck in a poor local optima and psychedellics knocked that marble right loose. There was a time i was a bit 'lost' in it all but i was able to get back on track in a reasonable timeframe and through the change in perspectove and way of thinking kept improving well past were id gotten to prior to that.
Despite what positive things i have to say about it, i wouldnt recommend it, unless it truly is your last option. i spent years with psychologists and paychiatrists prior to that. Ive seen many go down the path of the illicit and not get better but much much worse, and more that went down professional help based pathways who got better more consistently, and got worse far more rarely.
Worth noting the research is on psilocybin with supportive psychotherapy, not just take some mushrooms you got from a guy and have at it.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/...
From my limited personal experience and having attended various psychedelic talks and integration workshops etc., set, setting and (post) support are all really key to help turn what can be a potentially life changing/affirming/challenging event into a beneficial one.
I never have had a bad trip, except for that time I took 800 mu-g GG in my tiny apartment. I became insanely restless, waking up 12 hours later trying to open the window to get to more natural environment. My lights were dropped on the floor, as well as plenty of water, broken electronics and ruined papers.
Since then I've learned to use music and earplugs; keep the windows open; have high CRI bulbs; keep lots of plants; and to never hesistate going to an ice shower when feeling like a confused and mentally stressed ape.
The level of control one wants, I believe, is roughly the same as beating a nightmare disorder with lucid dreaming. One ALSO must have familiarity with "foundations" of the world, or else they will end up doing dumb stuff with dumb beliefs. By foundations I mean sort of at least grasping that it's all arbitary and then building what you want on That.
What if actually your teacher was right, and they’re just dumb intoxicants that have no upside and a small chance of ruining your life?
See e.g.
* https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S089662731930964X
* https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2010.02805.xEssentially, the TL;DR of this study is that psilocybin's 5-HT2A agonism seems to reduce synchronized FC activity not just in neurons but the whole brain: psilocybin makes parts of the brain overall that otherwise work together (in a time-correlated sense) stop displaying time-correlation. These results were seen most in the Default Mode[1] network, which is more or less the brain system in operation when you are inside your head — daydreaming, thinking, remembering, etc. — as opposed to processing visual cues or observing the physical world.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_functional_connectivit...
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network — this article is one of those that just blows my mind clean out my ears (heh); the brain is such a wonder.
Don't be disappointed about it not being another spiritual dimension, they discovered we literally have effects pedals for our brains. This is the coolest thing ever. We could probably classify hallucinogenic artifacts by chorus, delay, flange, harmonics...
Their conclusion in that paper is that Propofol derails the brain’s normal balance between stability and excitability, which induces unconsciousness.
Oh yeah!
But what does that mean?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
Project MKUltra was an illegal human experiments program designed and undertaken by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to develop procedures and identify drugs that could be used during interrogations to weaken people and force confessions through brainwashing and psychological torture.
[...]
The project studied the effects of psychoactive drugs, particularly LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, cocaine, AMT and DMT on peopleWhile I've had trips since then and do get benefits from those experiences. People without experience should be careful, especially if you have a history of mental illness. He did have a history to some degree but not overtly.
Not simultaneously I hope.. that sounds like it would be a rough ride
So 25mg is ~1.5g of dried mushrooms.
Decent dose, but not a "omg I'm one with the universe."
For instance, a "Hero Dose" typically starts at 5g of dried mushrooms, so ~3x the dosage used in the study.
Though it's possible the uptake rate using their dosing mechanism is much higher than "stomach acid digested dried mushrooms."
1.25g - 2.5g *
Throwing this in here as there are a fair few "dude just take drugs" comments and worry they might be the religious types.
I know some tech people have been donating to psilocybin research - is there any apparent connection to this study?
It is very very easy for smart people with functionally specific jobs/hobbies/ways of thinking to see all reality through that narrow window. It often leads to important details being glossed over or entirely missed. The more self-confident ones quickly start seeing the analogies as fundamental facts, usually with negative consequences like loss of empathy or a tendency to see big picture generalizations as specific universal truths.
Mushrooms have had a similar effect on me at times. You can start feeling like you KNOW big sweeping Truths. Similar to religiously “knowing” something. And that feeling of knowing is hard to overcome. But it is just a feeling.
Mushrooms are much gentler and forgiving than LSD when it comes to traumas.
Extrapolation of biological effect based on the receptor affinity of a ligand is a pretty crude hypotheses.
Science needs more Albert Hoffman's who are willing to couple their knowledge with this experience without fear of being fired from IRB violation and ostracized by the scientific community. Otherwise we will forever be grasping in the dark with these drugs.
Having someone who is experienced, sober and willing to guide you for hours (lots of trust) is crucial since the opti.al setting may not be the safest setting.
TL;DR - I struggle to trip or even enjoy a trip indoors. I have always felt shrooms work best when you let them help you attune to nature. Listening to the wind, trees, insects, etc... it's like washing your eyeballs with kittens.
it sounds like being on an airplane next to one of the engines. constant woosh. nothing at all like a warzone, or even a moderately busy range.
would be disconcerting as hell on drugs, but that's cuz it is even 100% sober -- it's a weird experience being in an MRI.
I have a pinched nerve in my back/shoulder that becomes very aggravated when laying flat on my back. It took 45 mins to do the MRI and we managed to not have to do any re-takes. I was so uncomfortable from eating the pain that I threw up as soon as I exited the machine. I simply couldn't imagine someone who is tripping trying to sit still that long (ignoring the auditory/spacial effects all together).
But what causes this change in personality? People who have done a lot of psilocybin seem to be a lot less worried, a lot less neurotic, and a lot less wrapped up in the ego than those who haven't. After all, who wants to be wrapped up and ruminating based on the content of their thoughts? I've always thought of this behavior by those who have used psilocybin to be a feature, not a bug—as if they're enlightened.
But if, say, this newfound personality is the result of a loss in functional connectivity—what does that tell us about how other markers of cognitive function have changed? Is strong FC a prerequisite for strong executive function or other measures of intelligence? The paper seems to suggest that the changes in FC are associated with the default mode network and maybe not other states of brain focus.
But will a macro dose of psilocybin, say—make someone better at their job? Maybe we don't know yet, and maybe there won't be a clear answer; there is a lot of heterogeneity in the way people think, and how they exploit their own cognitive abilities to provide value in the world—so maybe a loss in FC will mean different things to different individauls. But given the suggestion from this paper that the effects of psilocybin may be somewhat permanent, the answer to this question will be a very useful for those looking to benefit from this therapeutic.
Finally, there will be a great deal of individual differences. One story will not fit all of us.
"How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan
https://michaelpollan.com/books/how-to-change-your-mind/
There's also a multi-part Netflix series based on the book.
His mood post trip became increasingly abysmal. He became highly paranoid, and started questioning the loyalty of the people close to him like his family. I now know that this was a sign of possible schizophrenia. I now know that dementia runs in his family. He started creating simplistic yet disturbing paintings. I wish I still had them.
This happened in March of 2020, COVID had just become a national concern. I was dating long distance at the time and she wanted me to come up before the airports closed down. Sometimes I regret going. I wish he had gone somewhere so he wasn’t alone. He ended up shooting himself with his grandfathers rifle.
I guess the lesson here is be cautious with drugs that can accelerate mental illnesses if you have a family history of them. Check up on your friends that have bad trips and seem kinda off.
But if you actually look at the numbers, the average firearm is not used in self-defense, nor is it used to endanger a family member. The vast majority just . . . sit there. They're machines which must be used respectfully and responsibly, not magic evil talismans.
For example most people have access to cars, statistically much more dangerous than guns, and no one seems to imply that having a car around incites people to violence. People who are mentally ill and dangerous could as easily use any array of common tools or methods to commit acts which are dangerous to themselves and others. That doesn’t make it the tool’s fault.
I have a lost one too, but due to a different cause. He took hard drugs he was dealing to pay off a house after a legislative decision basically eliminated his well paying job. We grew up very much do what it fucking takes kind of people. And we were tested in life more than once. I still draw from that time today, sometimes remembering and finding that which will get me through. I miss him terribly.
Had he not used, he would have made it! We talked about that, and he used "a little" to know better what he was dealing. Now we all make choices and he made his. At the time, financially, it was understandable, though I would have chosen differently myself.
Anyhow... hard lessons!
Lost him in my very early 30's and I think of him regularly, as I am sure you do yours. What got him was the loss of autonomous breathing! Yes, right out of Greek mythos, he suddenly had to breathe consciously after a particularly nasty interaction with some of the product and his physiology.
It truly was a curse. Bit by bit, he lost the fight. Was cruel and hard to watch.
Sidebar: I am angered and lament the timing because I very strongly feel some form of electrical stimulation could have helped. I lacked means at the time. We both really wanted to try. Doctors had nothing.
End sidebar.
These drugs have awesome potential, but they also come with considerably greater risks than many of us know too.
Good PSA. Seconded.
Be careful peeps. We think we understand. Fact is we just don't yet.
And that will improve with proper study using the scientific method.
If you ask me, cutting those risks is the single most powerful argument for permitting ongoing research and study of the powerful things left for us in Mother Natures kitchen.
How about just having supervised sites with trained trip sitters so that people don’t have the ability (under the influence) to do irreversible things? Perhaps in a therapist’s/doctor’s office.
When you say "hard drugs" are you referring to mushrooms? Where I'm from mushrooms aren't considered a hard drug, heroin and cocaine would be.
Pharma is responsible for suppressing knowledge and proper medical treatments. They're letting people die so the fear sets their patented drugs in stone. It has worked very well for them.
There is a plethora of information on the net on how to start safely, if at all, and why most people should not use psychedelics at all. Set and setting are just as important as the dosage.
And we should absolutely continue research to learn more about the adverse effects. Obviously they help a lot of people, but must be done with care and seem not to be helpful for every person. We must learn more about these conditions.
The laws have turned it into something taboo and then people often start consuming psychedelics in a weird and suspicious way to begin with...because it's not legal potentially leading to more and more bad trips.
Meditation is similar, often seemed to be associated with guidance from someone who know how to do it and had experience dealing with some of the potential negatives associated with it. I just read a book by Mingyur Rinpoche and I ended up having a severe existential crisis, that book shocked my being to it's core at the time.
Book and the Netflix series.
observationist https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=observationist original comment:
Around 1% of people have schizophrenia. This holds over a lifetime - there's a structural, unavoidable component to the person's neural wiring or physiology that will result in a schizophrenic break. Prior to the break, they may seem more or less normal, but after, they will experience deficits in cognition and perception, and may have significant barriers to living a normal life. Schizophrenics, as a rule, will have a psychotic break before they turn 45. Psychoactive substances, and high doses of psychedelics, will trigger breaks from reality earlier than they might otherwise happen. Stress, caffeine, trauma, or significant excitement can also be triggers, but psychedelic drug trips are a reliable trigger, and in conjunction with other effects, can spiral a "bad trip" into a much worse trauma.
Another 3 to 4% of the population have significant mental disorders, ranging from those we know, to those we can observe but don't have a good diagnostic criteria for. In these cases, it can be very detrimental to use psychoactive substances generally, and psychedelics in particular.
It's crucial to visit with a doctor to rule out the likelihood that you're in the roughly one in twenty people that might have a significant negative reaction to psychedelics. Some of the people in that camp might be safe from harm later in life. I know a person with significant family history of schizophrenia and earlier life indicators he was at risk, who then started using mushrooms in his 50s and seems very stable. He talked things over with his doctors before deciding to take the risk - apparently after you turn 45 it's incredibly rare, even with significant trauma and stressors, for schizophrenic breaks to occur, so if that's your main threat, it might be safe to engage in psychedelics when you're older.
If you're not in the high risk camp, you should still have at least one frank discussion with your doctor about pitfalls, and do a metric ton of personal research about any substance you intend to use. It can be a profound and wonderful departure from the norm, or a mildly unpleasant experience, or a stressful confrontation with your inner demons, depending on the dose and preparation.
my response:
Thank you for this. I thought this was a very informative comment; I am worried about schizophrenia as a disease that might impact my kids. I wanted to ask you for more information, but that is a burden, so I asked ChatGPT instead so at least you wouldn't have to go find links. If you have Other reading besides what is below I would be happy to hear about it.
Here is it's response from ChatGPT (Claude couldn't provide links). My contribution is that I checked the links and skimmed them to see if they supported the statement. They are repetitive (there are only 7 articles linked actually), but they generally support your comment. Of note the PLOS article does not support your comment, and it seems that it doesn't support what ChatGPT says (maybe I misunderstood when skimming it). The stuff in parens below (Looks Like This), was a link in ChatGPT, but the links didn't copy-paste, so I'm going to put all the articles at the top here:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-023-02138-4
https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/schizophren...
https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia
https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/drug-psychosis-may-pul...
https://psychedelics.berkeley.edu/qa/understanding-your-risk...
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
The comment you saw online contains some accurate points but also could benefit from additional context and nuance based on available research.
1. Prevalence and Risk Factors of Schizophrenia:
- The lifetime prevalence of schizophrenia is approximately 0.3% to 0.7% globally, which supports the 1% figure as an upper bound (Nature) (BioMed Central) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Schizophrenia typically emerges in late adolescence to early thirties, with men often experiencing onset earlier than women (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
- Factors such as genetic predisposition, prenatal exposures, and psychosocial stressors contribute to the risk of developing schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) .
2. Triggers for Psychotic Breaks:
- The statement that high doses of psychedelics can trigger psychotic breaks in predisposed individuals is supported by evidence. Drug-induced psychosis, particularly from hallucinogens and cannabis, can lead to schizophrenia in some cases (Psychiatric Times) .
- Other triggers include stress, trauma, and significant life changes, which can exacerbate underlying vulnerabilities (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
3. Impact of Psychedelics on Mental Health:
- Psychedelics can pose significant risks for individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or other major mental health disorders. It is crucial for these individuals to consult healthcare professionals before considering psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
- Research has shown that about 25% of those with substance-induced psychosis may transition to schizophrenia, with the type of substance being a significant predictor of this transition (Psychiatric Times) .
4. General Mental Health Considerations:
- Around 3-4% of the population may experience significant mental disorders other than schizophrenia. For these individuals, the use of psychoactive substances, including psychedelics, can be particularly detrimental (PLOS) . [NOTE: This seems to be an error from ChatGPT, this PLOS article doesn't seem to support this conclusion. As I haven't done personal work on this yet, I don't know whether the statement is supported by other research.]
- Mental health evaluation and professional consultation are recommended before the use of psychedelics to identify potential risks and ensure safety (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
5. Later-Life Considerations:
- The risk of new-onset schizophrenia after the age of 45 is indeed rare, which suggests that older individuals may have a lower risk of experiencing a first psychotic episode triggered by psychedelics (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
For further reading and to deepen your understanding, you may refer to sources like the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the World Health Organization (WHO), and recent research studies on the global burden and risk factors of schizophrenia (National Institute of Mental Health) (World Health Organization (WHO)) (Nature) . Additionally, the Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics (BCSP) provides detailed information on the safety and risks associated with psychedelic use (Berkeley Psychedelics) .
IMO, this is kind of asymmetric lazy commenting that wastes other peoples' time. If you want to share something, just link to a article, and leave the LLM bullshit out of it.
From https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/schizophrenia
The NIH page sources these studies:
Kessler RC, Birnbaum H, Demler O, Falloon IR, Gagnon E, Guyer M, Howes MJ, Kendler KS, Shi L, Walters E, Wu EQ. The prevalence and correlates of nonaffective psychosis in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication (NCS-R). Biol Psychiatry. 2005 Oct 15;58(8):668-76. PMID: 16023620
Wu EQ, Shi L, Birnbaum H, Hudson T, Kessler R. Annual prevalence of diagnosed schizophrenia in the USA: a claims data analysis approach. Psychol Med. 2006 Nov;36(11):1535-40. PMID: 16907994
Desai, PR, Lawson, KA, Barner, JC, Rascati, KL. Estimating the direct and indirect costs for community-dwelling patients with schizophrenia. Journal of Pharmaceutical Health Services Research, 2013 Jul;4(4):187-194. doi/10.1111/jphs.12027/epdf
Before a controlled high dose Psilocybin experience I "felt" my emotions: Anger, Fear, Frustration.
Afterwards, I gained the ability to observe and "catch" my emotions in-flight. Not sure if it was neuroplasticity induced by the substance, or "you don't know what your brain can do until you know it".
I liken it to previously having Ring 1 access to my thoughts, now I have Ring 0 access.
Definitely persistent: DRAMATIC improvement in my happiness and wellbeing.
YMMV
Risk taking is not something to advise others to practice in. It is for each and every person to evaluate their own risk tolerance and not have them influenced by those who took risks and came out the other side "for the better".
Were they dried mushrooms you ate? Do you trust the provenance of them? If they were a chocolate bar or similar, many of those do not actually have psilocybin or psilocin in them, and are instead using a variety of different research chemicals that are significantly less understood. If it was dried mushrooms, there are a variety of species that induce hallucinogenic effects through other chemicals than what you find in your usual magic mushrooms.
They might have been regular shrooms, of course - people react to things differently - but that's a different enough outcome that I wonder if it wasn't something else entirely.
What are your qualifications to make a claim like that? There hasn't been much clinical research in humans using psilocybin until very recently [1], and they certainly do not cover the range of different species of mushrooms that contain the alkaloids [2].
1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11016263/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psilocybin_mushroom_sp...
Someone when taking schrooms would always "talk to God" and would get answers but they could never remember them the next day. So one day they ensured they had a notepad around to write down the answers.
They did the trip and asked "What is the meaning of life?". When they woke up all that was written on the note pad was "walls".
It must have felt profound at the time but it was basically meaningless. And that is a lot of drugs.
Very easy to understand how mythology can build around the stuff.
If I am a member of a tribe that uses ceremonial ayhuasca at regular intervals, I will build my relationships around that cycle, so the feeling of awe and understanding corresponds with an actual personal breakthrough or meaningful group event. That's the 10x use case
I almost wonder if all of this is simply because drugs can produce a strong anti-anxiety / euphoric effect, providing a powerful sense of confidence in one's convictions.
Recognizing that confidence and assuredness are not knowledge is not quite the same as those feelings themselves. Though I do recognize this is sort of recursive and cyclical and ultimately there’s nothing but some type of faith to build everything on, including doubt/skepticism.
Feeling "it is just a feeling" is being grounded in reality and affirming your senses and convictions are volatile and shouldn't be trusted.
Feeling "I solved the world, everybody listen to me" is... not.
Yep. During a pretty bad episode of delusional schizophrenia (for lack of any better diagnosis) I had that, many years ago.
I felt like I was either on the verge of a huge epiphany or I'd just had one, for a few weeks. Every time it was nonsense or couldn't be explained.
Luckily I have not relapsed and I have been off the antipsychotics for a few years
The only permanent damage is that every medical professional says I should never do psychoactive drugs. Which sucks cause they sound fun and I wonder if they'd help me get over some other problems I have. Maybe after I've retired.
It's unconscious knowledge; maybe not ready to hit the surface yet, but still actively affecting your life from within.
Whatever glimpses you get is just what you're capable of dealing with atm. Everybody's experience is different.
Before using psychedelics, it's important to anchor ourselves by questioning the difference between knowing something and feeling like we know something.
Ironically, using quite a lot of anec-data, there definitely seems to be a correlation between use of psychedelics among myself/peers and how "suggestible" people are. I've seen a lot of folks go really deep in conspiracy theories (regardless of the political/social positioning), strong religious beliefs, or similar such lines-of-thought that require a "leap of faith" or reasoning-by-analogy. Overall I believe that something about taking them puts you into a state of mind that is more "open", and therefore, more "gullible" to believe that you are latching onto some profound truth or significant idea.
Culture and science are also powerful benders of reality.
So, the deleterious effects of trauma emotions “mattered less”. If you can never sleep through the night without waking up screaming, that is a bad effect. But if you only have a year or two of lifespan left, then you experience less “penalty” than if you had lots of years left.
Now, we ship boys off to war at 18, or even younger. They get PTSD in war, and then live 50+ years afterwards with the bad effects.
There are plenty of traits that provide us with no advantage, and some that never have.
Just because our bodies and our brains do something, doesn't mean it's useful.
> To determine whether this reflects a common effect of psilocybin that generalizes across datasets and psychedelics, we calculated dimension 1 scores for extant datasets from participants receiving intravenous (i.v.) psilocybin55 and lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD)56. Psychedelic treatment increased dimension 1 in nearly every participant in the psilocybin and LSD datasets (Fig. 2c), suggesting that this is a common effect across psychedelic drugs and individuals.
I'm often just bored. and on shrooms. Which is fine, just a bit unpleasant.
I actually asked the LLM for supporting or refuting sources. I didn’t think I was cherry picking. Looking at its response… maybe CharGPT didn’t pick up on the “refuting” detail, or maybe observationist was correct. So maybe next time a prompt “find supporting” and another prompt “find refuting” would be useful to ensure coverage of both sides.
My value add in the human+AI workflow was to check the links. They seem high quality and directly applicable to statements made. I took pressure off observationist to go find directly applicable links (and I saved time by not googling for each separate fact). That being said, I probably didn’t need to requote ChatGPT in full. I liked the full answer because it assured me ChatGPT was responding on each claim but the important thing was the links. So, more efficiency was possible in my yc comment.
It might be, or it might be a ritual that has no meaningful benefit. There's a huge amount of hype around psychedelics, but extremely limited evidence with a very high risk of bias.
I feel like this is why drugs can sometimes help with creative things, especially if you're familiar with the drug, as long as you can harness this decontextualization to put more of your focus on one thing, kind of like clearing your mind. However, its usually fruitless/harmful in anything requiring complex reasoning/judgement because it is reducing your ability to see the big picture.
Yes, that would be better than a free for all. Of course.
The guy I lost had unique physiology that meant he was unable to use a substance most can with far fewer worries.
We have that data point now, and I hope it made it into the literature too.
But getting it was expensive! Cost one good person, and left a family without a father and many other souls, myself included, hurting.
More is needed.
And I am not saying your suggestion is bad. I sure do not see it that way.
It is just inadequate in light of the real problem space, that's all.
And remember, just taking it IS an irreversible thing. For most, that is not a big deal.
For some, it is a HUGE deal and the hard fact is we do not understand who is who in all that.
Peace, live well, play safe.
California is looking at legalizing psychedelic therapy without full legalization which is an interesting approach. I think ultimately adults should be allowed to make their own choices, as I’ve had very meaningful trips in a friends living room for a few dollars and a fully regulated therapeutic setting will probably cost $1000 (based on costs in Oregon). But maybe a therapy-first based approach will help underscore the need for appropriate ritual around these materials. Ultimately though adults are allowed to take risks with alcohol and other substances, and I think we should be free to do so with psychedelics too.
https://apnews.com/article/psychedelic-mushrooms-mental-heal...
It was a great book, but the way I thought about myself was let's say, very incompatible with the Buddhist ideas about self. The words I read in that book were undeniably true, and it shocked me.
I have never taken hallucinogens, but I suspect I have undiagnosed narcolepsy, which causes me to occasionally experience normally unconscious sleep states in more conscious way: lucid dreams, sleep paralysis, and (the weirdest of all) being conscious of falling asleep.
My experience with the latter sounds a lot like what some people are reporting in this thread. When I am in this state where I am falling asleep, but still fully conscious, I start thinking complete nonsense — sort of like wooliness is profoundly connected the concept of leftness or like ovals are one of the primary colors (but honestly much less coherent than that).
My suspicion is that it's caused by various neurons firing stochastically as part of the process of falling asleep, and it gives me the sensation that these unrelated concepts are connected to each other. I think we are supposed to be unconscious when this happens so we don't inadvertently take meaning from what is essentially random noise.
That being said, i'm a fan of this category of drugs and do feel like they can be very useful tools for introspection and other mental exercises (and they're fun lol).
I just think "drug people" take this stuff too far and often I find my reaction to things they're saying be eye rolling or thinking "it's just drugs man relax"
Couldn't find any data at the time. Tried to get them to submit experience reports on erowid so that there would be some data out there, but they didn't want to put anything about it in writing.
In neither case was it a big deal in the long run (not exactly great vibes in the short term though). I used to be a pretty enthusiastic user, so "just two times" is indeed uncommon.
Hopefully with the recent trend of decriminalization we can get together some respected data about this sort of thing. I still believe that psilocybin has been a net positive thing for most people who have tried it (including these two cases).
Even if the seizure thing were confirmed, all the conventional wisdom re: tripping remains unchanged. Be in a safe place with trusted people, consider a trip sitter, etc. On the other hand, I think having the data might help drive some better decisions: Situations you might avoid (e.g. swimming), etc.
A tangential anecdote... I took a Pfizer COVID booster vaccine and saw my heart rate go up to resting above 100 on my calorie tracker watch. I talked with my doctor about this. He said he stayed away from the COVID boosters because they weren't a good balance of risk vs safety. I asked him whether high resting heart rates were a side effect. He said, no, there's no data for that, but there is data that it has an impact on heart rates.
I said, if there's no data, that means the vaccine isn't the source? He said, no, there's no data because I didn't report it.
Temporarily or permanently?
goddam Mick Jagger !
Does this apply to the preceding paragraph in your comment?
How about to science, and various other The Way's currently popular bordering on mandatory (if you want to be respected at least) in this era, culture, geographical region?
Feeling doubtful is fundamentally different than feeling enlightened.
I'm not really sure what you're arguing - neither of these links indicate otherwise. Are you familiar with the null hypothesis? Unless we have evidence of something being the case, why would we think it would be the case?
We also have decades of anecdotal reports on usage of psilocybin and psilocin containing mushrooms and I'm also not aware of any significant evidence from that that such an effect is even remotely common - it's the first I've ever encountered that sort of story about persistent headaches for multiple weeks following their usage.
> neither of these links indicate otherwise
The articles I provided were to back my own statements that I made, not to refute yours, and I am not sure how that wasn't clear.
> I'm not really sure what you're arguing
I am saying that there really isn't a large enough body of scientific evidence yet to conclude definitively that there are no possible mechanisms that could cause this effect, as you stated. Humans aren't uniform systems.
> Are you familiar with the null hypothesis?
Yeah.
> it's the first I've ever encountered that sort of story about persistent headaches for multiple weeks following their usage.
HPPD comes to mind, serotonin syndrome, all sorts of possibilities that do not necessitate it being caused by another substance.
I'm not.
> were suggesting that they were possibly given other substances.
I am. There are a lot of people buying mislabeled products thinking they are ingesting chocolate made out of mushrooms that, in fact, are not. There are also people who sell other mushrooms, such as amanita muscaria, as your garden variety magic mushrooms. (I'm not aware of anything that would cause this with it, either, but it's got significantly less study and anecdotal reports.)
> I am saying that there really isn't a large enough body of scientific evidence yet to conclude definitively that there are no possible mechanisms that could cause this effect, as you stated. Humans aren't uniform systems.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about there being definitively no possible mechanisms. I said there are, to my knowledge, not known pharmacological mechanisms. If you want to dispute that, you're going to need to find some known pharmacological mechanism.
> HPPD comes to mind, serotonin syndrome, all sorts of possibilities that do not necessitate it being caused by another substance.
HPPD can cause a variety of visual phenomenon. That is not the same thing as having a 3 week long headache. SS is a possibility but now you're into multi-drug interactions, and I'd argue the blame is more on the MAOI or SSRI - those things interact with everything. But even still, the majority of SS cases subside in <24 hours... and the literature isn't exactly favorable to the idea that psilocybin is even a good candidate for causing SS in these cases. https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/assessing-risk-for-seroto... (Thomas has done several meta-analysis on this subject so he's about as informed on this topic as you can be.)
When something doesn't fit the current model of something, you ask questions about it - that's the starting point to pretty much any investigation. I'm unsure why you find this so egregious.
Another way of putting is that I'm self aware that the "qualia" of feeling angry is being projected into my conscious experience as a token, rather than simply experiencing "feeling angry" qualia.
I liken it to being able to set a breakpoint on my emotions, and then single step through the root cause of that emotion.
I seriously didn't have that functionality in my brain before that hero dose trip (even after doing many years of meditation).
Easier said than done, of course!
Science disagrees. Many attempts are impulsive and a minor hurdle can be enough to stop them.
If anything this event further radicalized me into the gun control argument. I have shot a few and they’re fun and all, but at the end of the day it’s impossible to detach the form from the function. They are killing machines. Something as powerful as a firearm should absolutely have a regular psychiatric evaluation attached to it if you insist on owning one.
But as for mechanism, maybe up/down regulation of sertogenic systems, individual specific conditions (kidney disease, liver disease), etc?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03768...
This is irrelevant to the statement that having a gun around is more dangerous than not having a gun around.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/06/handgun-owner...
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2022/04/handguns-homi...
> Women who owned handguns were more than 35 times more likely than women who didn't to kill themselves with a gun.
That is specific to handguns and kind of what would be expected?
Also, being more likely than not likely at all is pretty much comparing degrees of impossibility.
Seems like this pops up in arguments often.
Something like:
"We need to stop this bad thing that rarely happens! Only when it happens even less than hardly ever will we all be safe!"
students who take a weapon with them to school, impact welfare & performance of nearby students just because they are aware of that [1]
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414751/
[1] https://apadiv15.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Reducing-Wea...
go figure the plot you have to live after an event of this type
So what? More likely than not that’s the type of gun the person we’re discussing used.
> and kind of what would be expected?
Again, what’s your point? Because it’s expected we shouldn’t discuss it or do anything about it? Let’s bring back lead paint while we’re at it; I mean, it’s expected that it causes brain damage.
> "We need to stop this bad thing that rarely happens! Only when it happens even less than hardly ever will we all be safe!"
It happens in the US significantly more than in other countries. The US is literally at the top of the list, to the surprise of no one. So yes, making it happen fewer times, perhaps by learning from other nations which have demonstrated it’s possible, is a worthwhile goal.
Those aren't really the numbers you'd want to look at, right? If you have a community with 1000 firearms and 499 of them end up being used in a shooting you could still assert that "most firearms are never used".
I think what you'd care about in assessing risk is: what is the likelihood of violent injury and/or death in household with firearms vs households without? Controlled for other relevant factors?
I've never seen this particular assessment presented in the way I've described it, but then again it sounds like there are some political hurdles to studying gun violence: https://abcnews.go.com/US/federal-government-study-gun-viole...
> They're machines which must be used [...] not magic evil talismans
I feel like there's a straw man in there. No one is worried about guns sitting around literally unused, and I don't think anyone cares too much about the used/unused ratio. Obviously the thing people are worried about is how they are used when they are used.
Guess what - you're missing out on a fentanyl high, so awesome that people sell all they have to get more!
I do wonder what the actual odds are of getting injured by psilocybin though.
[1] https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/planecrash/risky.html
[2] https://www.ghsa.org/resources/Pedestrians23
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
Most people who are licensed to drive are unlikely to have a negative reaction from the act of driving for 2 hours under controlled conditions. The same can not be said (at all) about use of mind altering substances, given the mind cannot necessarily be controlled. Set and setting.
More importantly, driving a car gets me where I want to be, not just triggers an unexpected condition bug in my brain.
Though most of them probably have very little to do with you.
The inverse seems more prudent to me, since mostly all global decisions get made when not on psychedelics, and we arguably have a severe lack of truly novel, out of the box ideas...who knows, maybe something useful for addressing climate change, polarization, etc could result!
Or at least, run some trial studies comparing results under the three modes. I don't think I've ever heard of a study like this being done before.
"I should kill myself" grabs gun and fires
"I should kill myself. I'll go buy some poison pills tomorrow." feels better the next day and never actually does
The article states specifically that people who commit suicide with a gun are more likely to do so if they own a handgun. IMO, that follows from the mechanics of the scenario.
It is easier to point a handgun at yourself and pull the trigger than it is to do so with a long gun. So, IMO, it is common sense that it is more likely that someone committing suicide by firearm chooses to do so with a handgun over a long gun, and they are more likely to do that if they own a handgun already.
However, it isn't like a random person who owns a gun is significantly more likely to complete a suicide attempt just because they own a gun. Yet, a person who is already at risk of suicide might have an increased risk if they own guns.
That being said, as a random individual, the risk of completed suicide over a lifetime is incredibly low, and that risk is even lower for suicide by any firearm.
> Let’s bring back lead paint while we’re at it; I mean, it’s expected that it causes brain damage.
I don't see this as being analogous to what I am saying. Maybe I am missing something.
I think it's irresponsible to tell people to take this or that drug since we still don't have good numbers on the risks. But I also think telling people to completely abstain is dumb, and the government trying to enforce complete abstinence even more dumb.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/27/health/alpha-gal-ticks-me...
And that’s only the mildest of consequences, you’d be facing criminal charges as well in most countries.
The booster shots are not mandatory in most countries. Your doctor should have informed you of the benefits and side effects of the booster shots, so there's no point in commenting on it here.
I am not saying these aren't issues, but that the risk is often overstated.
Also, I think there are plenty of other things that are greater risks than the likelihood of gun violence toward oneself or others that impact lifetime well-being for individuals on a socioeconomic scale, especially in schools.
Also, you can control your own dose. I've never heard of anyone encountering any long term side effects from trying a single low dose of psilocybin. Especially since some studies show that very low doses aren't any different than placebo.
Then again most people don't start with a very low dose and ramp up slowly because people are human and do dumb things.
You may choke and die when swallowing a pill. Hit by a bus on your way to the doctor.
Every approved vaccine poses a much, much lower risk than the disease it prevents.
Warning about vaccine risks is at the very least a logical fallacy and most likely a hidden, eerie superstitious agenda.
It has been a major detriment to his day to day life though. Any physically involved hobbies are impossible; just walking up a flight or two of stairs now leaves him completely winded for several minutes, as his heart rate also takes longer to come back to resting than before.
Would not recommend.