Apple are making an attempt to turn generic computers into disposable appliances with moves like these. I would never accept a compromise like that with a computer that I owned.
My rationale is as follows: If I pay £1800 for one of those machines, I expect to be able to repair common problems easily. That's a lot of money sitting in one component waiting to fail and considering the warranty is a year (or 3 if you are extorted for even more cash by Apple for their expensive AppleCare service).
First it was the batteries - now no longer replaceable by mere mortals, then the SSDs were brought in with proprietary interfaces, now the RAM is soldered on the board.
In the average 5 year life span of a computer, I have found that you will need to replace the battery between 1-2 times, the memory will need to be upgraded at least once and the disk will need to be upgraded. These are observations but rational ones.
I'm now sitting on a Lenovo T61 which is 5 years old. EVERY component in this machine can be replaced for literally nothing and very rapidly.
Sorry but stuff like this is just pandering to consumerism if it is disposable by design.
The design is retarded.
EDIT: It appears the battery is GLUED in so that's not replaceable any more either, even with the aid of a screwdriver.
If you want replaceable components, go buy a computer for which that is a feature - and know that you will get a machine which is larger, heavier, and more expensive (all other factors being equal). Swapable components require additional casing, connectors, testing, sales channels, etc. You're not going to get a 3/4" 5-lb 7-hour 256GB-SSD 8GB-RAM MBA Retina for $2200 and be able to swap out darn near everything; something's gonna give.
Some of us DON'T want to replace components, having learned over the years that by the time we're replacing components we'd rather replace the whole computer outright. If I need more RAM, it's best matched with a new CPU. If I need more storage, I'll need more RAM to throw around more data. When the battery dies, all those other components are gettin' obsolete anyway. I also know from experience that upgrading parts doesn't always go as planned, and time wasted upgrading can very quickly add up to the cost of a new machine outright. I'd rather have a notebook which is very thin, very light, very fast - and just replace the whole package when the time comes as I see fit.
You're welcome to a different POV, and there is a market happy to serve our different needs & desires.
However, just because we have a different POV doesn't make me a f*ing idiot.
Now, this isn't necessarily a typical case, but if you were a regular consumer and your battery died, it isn't that hard to buy a replacement battery for the majority of laptops, though this kind of thing is becoming more prevalent. I would also like to mention that it's not just Apple (I'm looking at you, Ultrabooks), though I would say that they are the trendsetter.
Life used to be different: I spent a lot of time with extensible PCs, tweaking and running Linux, etc. I have come to realize that this "fun" had an opportunity cost that I am no longer willing to pay.
I also tend to replace Apple gear more often but it is easy to find relatives or friends who appreciate being given slightly outdated gear.
I like having an easily replaceable commodity laptop in sort of the same way I like server assets sold like electricity (e.g., AWS, Heroku, AppEngine).
Ultimately time is the most precious resource. The older I get the more I care about using it wisely.
Besides it is well understood in technical circles where Apple is headed. Make no mistake. Their goal is to kill general purpose computers, and replace them with appliances they control.
This design decision has nothing to do with reducing "volume, weight and cost". It has everything to do with hosing the customer on memory, as that has been a very lucrative business on the iPad.
Great, I'll go buy ANY computer that isn't made by Apple.
To make a laptop this small and thin with this much stuff inside, you have to get rid of certain elements. Before calling people names I'd suggest you check if it is at all possible to fit two (you'd want TWO, right?) SODIMM slots in the space available.
Same goes for the battery — when I saw the first pictures of the internals, I said "well, they finally got rid of the integrated battery pack": you have to, if you want to get that much mAh into that little space.
It's a natural progression — an externally replaceable battery takes the most space, an internal (but still a single one) battery pack takes less, and a bunch of cells glued all over the place take even less.
I think it's a good compromise. I'd order a laptop with the amount of RAM and storage that I'll need over the next 2 years, which is the time I amortize the purchase over.
And — if you don't like it, just don't buy it.
Whenever I get the urge to write something like that, I ask myself: "Am I in the target market for this?"
A product built to these tolerances is not one that a rational person (even a competent one, with experience fixing computers) should want to crack open. Make the professionals worry about getting in and out of it, and enjoy the fact that they'll be liable for anything they break in the process.
"Not user serviceable by design" != "disposable by design." You're not wandering across a post-apocalyptic desert wasteland with this thing; take it to a f'ing Apple Store and grab a coffee while the infrastructure wrenches on it.
I would expect for that price a lot of people would like their MacBook to outlast the warranty with an option to fix it at a reasonable price. I can guarantee if the RAM fails they will replace the MB, and they won't do that for the price of the RAM chips.
The bigger problem to me is that the general consumer is unaware of these 'gotchas' until it's too late. That's where I have a problem with it. Have had to inform a few friends with Apple products that no, as much as I wanted to I could not help fix their notebook like I used to with their PCs.
Apple have made the perfectly reasonable decision to maximise portability for the 99% of users who never upgrade any component, over the 1% for whom upgradability matters. To dismiss people with different priorities to yours as idiotic is, to be frank, the reason nobody liked you at school.
The benefits of Apple's approach are obvious - they have substantially reduced the bulk of each generation of machine, whilst still improving performance and battery life.
We've already been through this debate in the automotive industry. Cars used to be readily maintainable and modifiable, but miserably unreliable. Electronics and sealed units hugely increased reliability. Auto enthusiasts lamented this change as an assault on the amateur mechanic and the march of disposable consumerism, but the market never looked back. Most people don't care that they can't remap the ECU in their car and most people don't care if their RAM isn't replaceable. That's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint.
In particular, note: Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation.
I'm, like, a slobbery fanboi and I can tell you, occasionally, Apple makes one that's rotten.
There need to be more wrong people to ask that question to.
For some people (some being the vast majority of MBP users) this design actually makes a lot of sense.
Not any worthy portion of society then.
I have a couple Toughbooks from the 90's, I'll probably never throw them away, but instead keep using them for more years yet, because: fully user upgradable.
http://www.google.com/search?q=panasonic+toughbook+cf25&...
Though slow by 'modern standards', they are still perfectly usable computers, still quite adequate for most needs, which haven't really changed terribly much. Slow-ass Pentium 133's with a nice, tight, Linux distribution, no driver worries whatsoever, and workable for my needs. One is an offline Wikipedia/Doc-dump that can be easily road-tripped, powered from a cross-bike battery, chucked up the cliff and so on, and the other is a general-purpose debug device for various embedded projects back in the lab, where-in such things as standard serial and parallel ports are still .. a bit useful ..
You know why these computers are still in use? They kick ass.
3 Open PCMCIA slots per device. Magnesium-Alloy cases that take a real beating, and can yet still be opened with a coin, in case you want to put a different component into the gel-protected insides. In the lab-bench toughbook there is room for its disk as well as various shields, arduinos, proto pcb's, and so on. It functions very nicely as a carry case in that regard, too: I have room for my DS-one scope, when I need it.
Oh, its got standard strap mounts as in I can take one off a gun and strap the toughbook behind me as I ride off into the desert.
If Apple ever make something like this, i.e. the complete other end of the spectrum, I would be very surprised. There are places, though, an iPad and a Macbook and an iMac and an iPod .. well maybe my iPod would fit along the DS-1 .. but anyway, there are places that the 'elite delicate consumer electronics' can't go.
My point is, there are alternatives to the Macbook cult.
Apple don't have ANYTHING that competes with the toughbook in terms of user servicibility, but then: that is another arbitrary choice being made by the Apple Super-power. Apple is so big now that if it decides to build a walled-garden, then such shall the field grow. If they WANTED to make a computer that could seriously benefit future generations, it wouldn't be out-dated in a decade, or two decades, or even three. It'd be useful for a Century.
You are kind of right.
We use our 7 year old G4 Powerbook with the 4th battery. Its a pity that there is no real operating system available for a Thinkpad.
What would constitute a real operating system? Last time I checked Windows/Linux/BSD are very much real operating systems.
I'm getting one with 16 GB of RAM. Pretty sure I won't want to upgrade that before I upgrade the whole machine in ~2 years.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-T60-MOTHERBOARD-BASE-FRU-42T0116...
It's relatively easy to replace the invertor. There are service manuals on the Lenovo/IBM site that tell you how to replace all things that are replaceable.
Newegg actually sells barebone laptop kits.
This is just technology marching on, it is cutting edge engineering and manufacturing and Apple care is next to none in the industry. To call a person buying this a fucking idiot is akin to an old timer smacking down the youngsters about modern TV's because you can no longer swap out the valve tubes.
The thing with modern TV's is that they don't need RAM upgrades, don't have any user-fillable storage built in and have external power supplies.
They have always been a PIA to upgrade since Day 1:
I hope other manufacturers won't follow suit, though...
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ...
Actually, looking through the entire teardown, I think the battery being glued in is worse than anything as levering it out is likely to cause the Li-Ion cells to blow up.
Also consider how hard it is recycling that machine!
Their summary:
1. Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside.
2. As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.
3. The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.
4. The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.
5. The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.
The whole machine is a joke. PLEASE DON'T BUY ONE!
- MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair).
- Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside.
- As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.
- The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.
- The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.
- The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.
EDITED: got rid of scroll per comment below
* MacBook Pro with Retina Display 15" Mid 2012 Repairability Score: 1 out of 10 (10 is easiest to repair).
* Proprietary pentalobe screws prevent you from gaining access to anything inside.
* As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.
* The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.
* The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.
* The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.
I'd be much more worried about the Flash that is, just as the RAM, also permanently soldered to the motherboard. With the wear-leveling most chipsets do nowadays, these things will just simultaneously drop dead in three years.
edit: Took another look: http://imgur.com/x0I9x It seems that they might indeed be exchangeable. Looked a lot like they were soldered on with the rest on a first glance.
OWC says that it is similar but probably not exactly the same as the one in the Macbook Air, they are looking at providing an upgrade model like they do for the Airs:
http://blog.macsales.com/14090-not-a-lot-of-options-for-macb...
Apple have a habit of charging fairly outrageous prices for extra RAM - $375[2] for 16GB in the current Mac Pro, and that's not even for 8GB sticks. With that in mind, $200 for the upgrade to 16GB is not that bad, which is probably on purpose.
[1] https://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270#link1 [2] http://store.apple.com/us/configure/MD770LL/A
A pretty healthy 300% mark up.
They aren't charging you for an extra 8GB module, they are replacing your 8GB module with a 16GB module. What's the price difference between a single 8GB stick and a single 16GB stick?
The counter-intuitive thing to me about using memory-down (at scale orders of magnitude smaller than Apple) is that it can end up being way more expensive over the lifetime of the product. Module vendors can constantly shop and swap between DRAM manufacturers in order to lower their costs and module competition is fierce.
RAM can now be tested in one package on the motherboard and people can't accidentally change it. In the long run it may open some abilities w.r.t using RAM for other things since you know its exact clocking.
The production is cheaper since the MB does not need an extra "install ram" step which is probably a human.
You can probably win some height space by a couple of millimeters.
You have more control over heating.
I suspect that's not true. I reckon it's more likely they're changing a "slot RAM into place" step with a "solder RAM into place" step.
That said they'll probably be able to simplify the case and design the mainboard however they place, since they'll no longer need to provide easy access to the RAM slots.
Though with 8GB RAM and an SSD, the CPU has suddenly become my slow-point.
Apple has been slowly migrating all of their devices in the direction of appliances. The mass market doesn't upgrade the device, they replace it. That is where Apple is headed: the mass market.
It's hard to argue that they're wrong when they're selling so many units as everyone else is in decline.
It's also soldered on the Air, unsurprising that they'd do the same on a small-factor MBP.
- I gave up non-Mac machines as I had no interest in replacing components and fiddling with hardware, so it being non-replaceable is fine for me. Sell it on eBay as spares/repairs, someone will be able to fix it. - Continue using the most 'general computing' laptops Apple make, which for me is the MBA. It handles all the general dev work I need to do. - Have a couple of cheap VPS' that have more computing capacity than I need on a general basis handy. Offsite the work there.
I'm happy buying one because the way of the future is going to be almost the way of the past in my eyes. Sweet workstations that can handle the bulk of my daily digital needs, and big heavy stuff I can connect to happily that I don't need to do anything beyond pressing the shiny 'upgrade' button when I need to.
The App Store only makes this worse, since at any given time you can only download the most recent version of any app. So if you don't upgrade iOS, you find yourself increasingly unable to install any new apps.
And all in all it seems very successful. There have only been 5 iterations of the iPhone over about 5 years, but how many people do you know that owned at least 3 of them?
Barring a temporary bug in iOS3, every time an iOS update has come through my phone has felt faster afterwards.
I can name a ton of people who've owned only 1 or 2 iPhones since they've released. However that isn't even what I'm arguing about.
Apple makes (in my opinion) a very smart decision to limit some features to only newer phones. Think about when iOS4 came out, it was only fully supported for the iPhone 4 and 3GS. Backgrounding on the 3G was a nightmare to memory and performance... so they cut it. You're saying they automatically lump in apps that make the device seem slow? I think they do the exact opposite. They make smart decisions to keep even 2 year old devices running like their brand new.
Of course they want you to update to a new device every two years (every single manufacturer does, don't just blame Apple here) but they are the only company I've seen that doesn't hold a gun to your head to upgrade just to get a new OS.
One thing I can always depend on with my iPhone, I'll likely see at least 3 major OS upgrades during my ownership. My Android phone (I own both) has only seen 1 major OS upgrade and very very very few incremental upgrades as well. The only reason why I have ICS on it is because of CyanogenMod.
Now, if you want "maxed storage", you'd better buy it at the time of purchase of the unit, from Apple, at Apple's price.
You may agree or disagree; regardless, one should remain cognizant of the fact and how it contributes to Apple's monolithic presence within its segment of the market.
P.S. This is not to discount the relevance of design decisions that limit physical accessibility: Slimness, edge-to-edge glass, etc., etc.
These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine.
>These days, if I wanted more RAM, I'd just buy a new machine.
Seems like a waste of money for something that's an easy $100 upgrade on pretty much every other computer in use today.
Have you ever tried to claim the warranty from other companies? If you rely heavily on a piece of equipment, $350 for really good support is a bargain.
I was amazed at how much they got off the macbook in size and weight - EDIT: everywhere, off the whole machine - and they're idiots for not putting this right next to the "retina display" in the tagline announcing it -- e.g. at www.apple.com now -- The headlines (here and elsewhere) didn't even emphasize the new sleek lightweight form factor.
This shows Apple doesn't currently remember what Apple is. Apple makes, and should make, a big deal out of even a marginal reduction in weight or thickness. What this is is a miracle.
we've just seen a miracle of engineering and Apple doesn't even think it worth mentioning on the front page. idiocy.
Apple expects consumers to replace hardware every two to three years. Often this is encouraged by their practice of only supporting a single version of their operating system and their practice of making new versions of their operating systems incompatible with hardware more than a few years old.
To put it another way, Apple doesn't want you to keep your Macbook for three years because there's no money in that, just support costs.
You wouldn't be able to either way, depending on the chipset's hardware limitations. 2010 MBPs won't recognize 16GB RAM for instance.
* Finally, if it really is a problem, buy the Thunderbolt to GigE adaptor.
I currently use a Macbook Air which does not offer a GigE port either and I'm doing just fine.
And guess what. 99% of people would trade thinness over ability to use third party RAM.
Of course now i read that Mac Airs do the same, so i feel silly. (Edit)
Now the screen IS the display module. The metal shell is the actual backing of the LCD module, and the glass is the actual LC-retaining surface.
As for not touting improvements in depth & weight: there's only so much trumpeting of awesomeness that the audience can take before they glaze over. While not the only selling point, the screen is a major factor their advertising group is focusing on. Even without prominent declaration, you & I & others "get it" that it's lighter & thinner. It's not that Apple is neglecting a miracle of engineering, it's that flouting too many miracles at once numbs the audience and degrades the experience ... which methinks is why we did not see new iMacs: one piece of overwhelming awesomeness is enough for the month.
The integrated display isn't really a miracle of engineering. In my opinion it's more a miracle of business that they convinced their display manufacturer to make the retina display modules in the shape of the MBP's display assembly. This sort of thing has actually shown up in smartphones for a while but this is the first time we've seen it in a notebook computer.
Most people who knows the big deal about size & weight can see it on the details page and in the movie ads.
The retina screen is what the competition can't match, not fully nor partially.
Until I clicked the video and found out the extent of the reduction here. They have completely blown the announcement in my opinion. Even something as little as "The All-New Macbook with Retina Display" would have been enough to draw attention to it. ('all-new')
It's not everyday that something gets reengineered so thoroughly. they blew playing this up. apple fans live for these big announcements, and put up with a lot of crap that really shouldn't be press coverage but are (marginal bumps) just so they can get at the juicy unveilings. This is one of them - and should be presented as such.
it's not too late, and the front page should be changed to reflect the extent of this miraculous reengineering right in the 6-word announcement; at least add "all-new" (copout) or something more descriptive right in the blasé sentence "Introducing Macbook Pro with Retina display", which sounds like...a macbook with a Retina display.
The "It's a whole new vision for the notebook" underneath it in that ugly grey doesn't do justice to the redesign, since that's exactly what they would say about a bump to retina display with no other reengineering.
This picture shows the difference: http://www.notebookcheck.net/typo3temp/pics/23da9d8f6b.jpg
I think Apple have somewhat of an aversion to having price be the only or main differentiator between products. That's why the old macbooks were scrapped. Pros were more powerful & Airs were more portable. Macbooks were only cheaper. Cheaper models can exist, but they have to have some unique advantage that'd make some users buy them regardless of price.
The existence of a Macbook pro & a Macbook pro retina bends this rule. If a 13" air and a just-as-thin 13" pro retina both existed, it would break it.
I can also view many pros who view the thinner size as far more important.
As it turns out Apple also makes a not thinner "pro" laptop you can upgrade the RAM on so what's the big deal?
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/
You can only fit so much in a product name.
Consider their entire product line. The MacBook Air is thinner than this, and it's old news. The next-generation MacBook Pro is their first Mac with a Retina display.
But you're right, I read somewhere that it weighed almost as much as a macbook air. But didn't see that advertised on Apple's website. Which was for me the biggest news next to the new display.
You read some bullshit then, it's not even close to the Air in terms of weight. 4.46 pounds for the Retina and 2.38-2.96 pounds for the Air (11 or 13")
thinner = less mass = less weight = portability. A laptop is designed to be a portable machine, no?
Desktops however, I do not care if there is a massive tower under my desk. I don't move it unless I'm plugging in something new, or upgrading components.
So ultimately, no it's not regardless of the use case.
I've since switched to another laptop manufacturer.
If you want to know my most important point:
backup and play back (bootable) EASILY.
My statement was provocative, I guess. This is like a Harley driver asking if a Yamaha is a real Motorcycle (is it?).
Backup is not a function of the operating system, but the key question is whether software is available FOR the operating system. Could be even an issue of bios, but who cares except theorists?
You always buy a package.
You do realize all the "new" limitations of the MBP come straight from the MBA right? And that the MBA's been a raging success?
Battery is already soldered (basically), nobody cares. Aftermarket RAM upgrades only matter insofar as their historically being way overpriced at Apple, this seems avoided for now on the new MBP ($200 for the 16GB upgrade, Crucial asks for $160 for 2x8GB SODIMM so the markup extreme — least of all on a $2200 machine), the HDD -> SSD upgrade is irrelevant as it's already an SSD and if it's the same as the Air (no reason for it not to be), it's a semi-proprietary caseless and low-profile SSD module... for which there are third-party alternatives (or will be, in case the pinout is incompatible with 2011 Air pinout, which would be surprising)
edit: But looking at the hardware pics it looks like it is single module but more than that, it looks like the RAM chips are soldered directly to the motherboard. Not a RAM module soldered to the board but the actual chips which means the cost to apple would be even less since you just double the ICs.
Considering the for $400 more over the price of a standard Mac Pro notebook you get the new screen, 4g more memory, light weight, and SSD, it really comes off as a good deal in the scheme of Apple pricing. Yeah you lose the DVD, which I cannot recall when I last used one.
My suggestion is just order it maxed out in memory, if the $200 is something to quibble about in a $2200 laptop the you should not be buying one in the first place.
For this laptop? 16GB likely is the maximum the chipset can handle (in hardware) and Apple offers the BTU option. BTU RAM is considered a sucker's games for individuals, pros have much lower a reason to care.
So this would be one explanation which I do experience. When I buy a Gadget and the cool stuff is hard-wired, this means to me: this Gadget is merged with the cool stuff.
I'm genuinely curious - do their stated reasons for using Macs differ from how you think they are actually using their machines?
I suspect, however, that the cost/benefit -- from the manufacturers' perspective -- for implementing this is not favorable.
Cadmium batteries have a memory effect and need to be drained every once in a while but Apple doesn't use those.
This isn't the same as 'run it down to 0% and then fully charge', though, it could be 'run it down to 75% and then fully charge, four times'.
http://www.belkin.com/pressroom/releases/uploads/BelkinThund...
Firewire, USB, HDMI, Audio, Ethernet.
My current machine got its RAM upgraded once, the day I bought it, and will never see an other RAM upgrade in its life because I'm at the chipset's capacity. It's in the exact same position as the new mbp. Has it suddenly become a "disposable computer gadget" where it was an "expensive professional tool" between the moment I received it and the moment I put the new ram sticks in? Even though I hadn't even booted it up at that point, and it's my day-to-day workhorse now?
On the other hand, the SSD is most definitely replaceable, it's the same system as in the Macbook Air (though apparently not the exact same drive): http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Displ...
Before, you had the ability to go to the Apple store or website and have them "take care of" your memory woes at point of purchase. They charge like $500 for an $100 memory stick.
Most people call paying 5x more for a commodity product "a ripoff".
That's definitely the case historically, but you may want to look at this one case right there: 16GB RAM upgrade on the new MBP is $200. 2x8GB SODIMM at crucial is $150.
I'm not exactly going to shit my pants over a minor $50 (and 30% of the base part) markup when buying a $2200 kit.
Well, it depends. If someone says "hey, did you check out the new MacBook?" say "yeah, I didn't really like the weight vs. upgradability trade-off" and move on. If someone says "you are required to buy this computer with your own money even if you prefer another one," laugh in their face and move on. If someone says, "wow, this computer is perfect for my needs," say "that's awesome" and move on.
Incidentally, this formula actually works any time any product is offered for sale and you don't want to buy it.
(Personally, I try not to stress about how much computers cost. In two years I'll probably put in north of 4000 hours on the thing. If there's a meaningfully better option, I'll take it even if it's more expensive. Not that I have a ton of spare cash, or that $2200 is a reasonable figure for most people yet, but this is one area where I think it's a false economy to focus on the cost.)
There are other computers on the market. They're available from a range of manufacturers. Many people recommend a few of the Lenovo range.
There might be legal issues if you want to run OS X.
New hard drive. New RAM. New battery. Probably want a new CPU, but that's not upgradable. Ditto display. Can't add Thunderbolt, USB3, or whatever nifty new interface.
May as well just get a new computer at the 2+ year point, seeing as you replaced half of it and want to replace the other half.
"This here's a good axe. It's had nine handles and three heads."
PS: By slow compare my 18 month old CPU (2600K @4Ghz) + GTX 680 and you might be able to buy a laptop that fast in 3 years, but it's still going to cost you more money.
As is your right of course, all computers are sets of tradeoffs and if the tradeoffs don't fit you, get an other machine.
Hell, you could even like both. I like my desktop because it's fast, has a huge screen and has enough power to play games at high resolution without stuttering... on the other hand, I'd have a hard time bringing it to the office or using it in the train. So I've also got a good laptop.
This is the (top line) pro, not the laptop bought by people who want it because it is silver and has an apple logo. And it is not 'just' third party use, it is no upgrades, ever. So i think plenty of mac pro users would have preferred the imperceivable (<1mm) thickness increase necessary, if it even was.
For most here considering this, I imagine it adds $200 on to the cost, because they will feel the need to top up the extra 8gb to future proof themselves. NB +8gb sodimm is ~$50.
To be fair, there will probably be (unauthorized) third party SSD replacements, and USB3 allows much more flexibility with external upgrades.
I imagine it adds $200 on to the cost, because they will feel the need to top up the extra 8gb to future proof themselves.
Yeah. It's also disappointing that the high end model still only has 8GB standard, but that way Apple guarantees that you have to order through them if you want 16. I'll still do it, because by all accounts the display really is that good. It will likely be my last Apple hardware purchase, assuming that in a few years other PC manufacturers have realized that Apple is on to something with their brilliant strategy of making displays better instead of worse.
For MBP buyers, I doubt it. Lots of them are desktop replacements that don't move much.
700 g difference. It's pretty close. My guess is you might have a hard time telling which is more heavy if you blind your eyes and weigh one in each hand.
The weight difference between the iPad 2 and the new iPad is quite noticeable and it's just 51 grams. The difference between these laptops is 14 times that.
As I said in reply to your parent comment, please read the guidelines here. We appreciate civility. If you keep it up, you will eventually be hellbanned.
My sincerest apologies if such an approach is offensive.
Knowing that there are upgrade options makes it easier for me to pay up for an expensive machine. But years later I never actually buy an upgrade because it feels like a waste to put money into a machine that is nearing the end of its useful life anyway.
I don't even want to know how much money I have wasted on buying "future proof" hardware. So if anything I have to thank Apple for making this perfectly clear to me and saving me from sinking $2200 into a laptop ;-)
As a former owner of a 3G, they did (attempt) with iOS 4.2.1, which significantly improved the situation over the absolutely dreadful 4.0 and 4.1 series. It wasn't back to 3.2 levels by any means (there's only so much you can do when the phone had barely 30MB of RAM headroom when released — and yes, I think AAPL are stingy fuckers on their RAM, the original iPad looks like it has the exact same issue with iOS 6) but it did make the phone work again.
What really annoyed me with the situation was that they didn't release a good way (afaik) to downgrade your OS back if you didn't have a good backup. I expect that from a commodity manufacturer, but given Apple's premium reputation I tend to expect a quality response when they screw up.
That said, I still buy their stuff, so maybe that's why they don't care ;)
It most definitely is, they're going to deprecate the older design over time. Just look at the specs, CPU and GPU are the same between old-style and Retina, but only the Retina gets a 16GB RAM option (with 8 base, versus 4 base for old-style), a retina display, Retina gets HDMI (and a second TB, which is the future as far as Apple's concerned), an updated Magsafe design.
The old-style remains to clear inventory and to wait for the cost of making/buying retina panes to get lower.
This is a transition product just like the original Macbook Air was, which incidentally also looked like an odd duck compared to the clarity of having Macbook and Macbook Pro lines.
It's likely just a typo in your comment, but the Pro Retina is a 15.4" model, not 13".
*Not a typo, but I clarified the sentence.
16GB RAM upgrade on the new MBP is $200.
2x8GB SODIMM at crucial is $150.
CORSAIR 16GB for MacBook Pro - $89.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233...
Audis are notoriously difficult to work on, as were Saab's, and good luck finding somebody certified to service a Porsche in your area that doesn't work at a Porsche dealer.
Not to mention, people that spend that much on a car usually want performance parts or factory parts [not your average "OEM equivalent" parts] and a competent technician that specializes in working with their specific make of car. Why? Because they're uncompromising in the quality of the vehicle they just purchased.
To people like this, they don't care if they have to pay extra for an AAA membership because it's too difficult to jump-start their own car.
Why is it so unreasonable to expect that there are some computer users that hold a similar attitude about their "luxury" computer brand?
Because Apple is trying to make easy things look so difficult that users rather believe in buying a new one rather than fixing it.
C'mon is changing RAM/battery/screen a rocket science? I can understand the Porsche analogy, but that rather fits well into things like tinkering with the engine etc. But will you throw away the whole car if the battery went dead on your Porsche?
What's troubling about this whole debate is the way, Apple and their fan boys and presenting it. All of sudden overnight, changing RAM is being portrayed as the most difficult thing you could attempt on a computer. So difficult that it would be rather better to buy a new than changing it.
I think we all be thankful that this mentality hasn't spread to other makers, else all of us would be piling laptops like bricks every time the battery went dead or the DVD ROM stopped working.
To me that makes all of the difference.
I think people should educate themselves on the product and if it doesn't fit within their use case then they should find a product that does. I personally think that this is a terrific looking laptop and has enough local processing power that combined with my increasing cloud reliance could be a good fit for a number of years.
The asking people to educate themselves on this product runs directly counter to Apples marketing. Apple wants to (has) made computers an appliance and doesn't want the user to think about the insides. Asking the user to educate themselves on the internals of their Apple notebook is asking them to go back to PC style thinking, exactly what Apple has worked to kill. And now that that style of thinking is dead, they (seem to) purposely make the machine non-serviceable because no one asks anymore.
Whilst I agree people do useful work relating to MacBooks in general, I do not find that this MacBook is worthy of purchase and outlined my reasons why. I do not specifically slate all MacBooks as a whole, but the general approach being taken on their design which favours consumerism over pragmatism, practicality and convention.
My comment derided the machine and branded it as only suitable for an unimportant segment of MacBook users who produce nothing of value with it and to whom it is a fashion accessory or trinket. It's analogous to the old comment about celery taking more calories to eat than it provides.
Is that a fairer deconstruction of the point?
Regarding the content of what you said, we still disagree. I know many people who use MacBooks, most of which are CS researchers and one astrophysicist. Of that set, I know of one person who upgraded their machine at all (a CS professor who replaced his harddrive with an SSD). I view Apple's design decision of making the RAM non-upgradable in line with my use, and the use of almost everyone I know. We certainly try to do work that has value, and we do not see our work computers as fashion accessories or trinkets.
So the point is, it might be called the MacBook Pro, but is it really geared towards professional users? Not even AV professionals anymore, with no Firewire and no disc drive.
Finally, if it really is a problem, buy the Thunderbolt to GigE adaptor.
You shouldn't have to buy accessories on a $2200 laptop which come standard on even a $200 netbook.
Thickness is the culprit here for both ethernet and ROM, and this drive to thin machines makes no sense on a laptop marketed for professional users.
People just aren't using Firewire, Optical Drives and Ethernet like they use to. And compromising the entire computer just to satisfy a minority isn't good business. And absolutely isn't Apple's style.
Most things are more expensive when you aren't buying the mainstream option. In your case having to buy the Superdrive, Firewire and GigE adapters.
It's called the Macbook Pro. Firewire is huge in cameras still. Optical drives are still big in AV work. Ethernet is still important in corporate networks. By default, professionals are not mainstream. This is a 100% consumer laptop. Calling it "Pro" is just disingenuous when there's not a single professional aspect about it.
I think the point is valid. One of the things "pros" need is ports. Ports that hardware assumes you have because its standard on most machines. This thing about ports is that you don't need them unless you do. Maybe you never use ethernet, but a lot of people do. Maybe you need to plug in to set up a router. Maybe a hotel room only has ethernet. Maybe your office environment requires ethernet.
I've been using a mac at work for years and ports have always been a pain. Need to plug into a projector? Connect to a TV? More than 2 USBs? As often as puling out adapters, the solution is use someone else's machine.
In the case of the hotel room, yes that is sometimes the case... then again, I guess that is what the adaptors are for. It is the same reason that laptops no longer have 56k modems built in - it simply isn't that common these days. Ethernet on laptops isn't that useful anymore. Wireless is the default.
The challenge in any technology is to balance the realities of the world with the vision for the future. This laptop is clearly designed with the future in mind.
Well, there's not much inside for a normal user to replace any more.
> 2. As in the MacBook Air, the RAM is soldered to the logic board. Max out at 16GB now, or forever hold your peace—you can't upgrade.
Just like CPUs and graphics cards have been for years.
> 3. The proprietary SSD isn't upgradeable either (yet), as it is similar but not identical to the one in the Air. It is a separate daughtercard, and we’re hopeful we can offer an upgrade in the near future.
External drive, bro. It's an effing superportable laptop. Do you really need your entire 200GB porn collection available to you at all times?
> 4. The lithium-polymer battery is glued rather than screwed into the case, which increases the chances that it'll break during disassembly. The battery also covers the trackpad cable, which tremendously increases the chance that the user will shear the cable in the battery removal process.
There is no battery removal process. And you know what? That's okay! I'm over 2 years in on my 2010 MacBook Pro, and checking the battery right now I see its designed capacity was 6,000mAh while its current, fully-charged capacity is… 5,786mAh. The sky has steadfastly refused to fall, and the four horsemen have failed to ravage the countryside.
> 5. The display assembly is completely fused, and there’s no glass protecting it. If anything ever fails inside the display, you will need to replace the entire extremely expensive assembly.
Wow! If an expensive thing fails expensively, it's expensive! Please tell me how this situation is any different than for dozens of other devices you currently possess, including your HDTV display and the engine in your car.
> The whole machine is a joke. PLEASE DON'T BUY ONE!
Your whole post is a joke. If the machine doesn't meet your own personal criteria, that's awesome. But you appear to be taking it personally if other people have a different metric of value. Chill out, for fuck's sake.
The thing that you forget is that the moment that the warranty expires, those points become EVERY user's personal criteria.
You'll take it to a non-vendor sponsored repair shop and they'll say "no chance - can't fix it".
And for ref, I bought my HDTV (Bravia 26EX320) dead and repaired it. I recently bought a new car (2002 Land Rover Discovery) dead and repaired it.
I don't know what the capacity is on mine, but I used to get about 5 hours on battery, now I'm lucky to get 2.5 hours. Mine is same model, 18 months old.
Keep in mind that the reduction in battery life might also just be that you have more intensive apps running, more things happening in the background, brighter monitor, etc. I also feel intuitively like the battery life in my MBP has dropped, but seeing the numbers, I'm pretty convinced it's a change in my usage more than the inherent battery life.
Tell Apple and they'll send you a shipping label. Just like any other Mac.
The actual recycling bit is considerably harder.
I'm curious, because I never tried to do that at home. I always returned the whole appliance for recycling.
Apple's task is to create a laptop with the features they think users will like, and not have to worry about the support for third party component vendors. If you think iFixit is your source for recommendation, don't buy the MBP. :)
I am sure apple has thought of how to recycle these machines because they take that stuff seriously. They don't expect you to recycle it, technology is complex stuff and the whole life cycle needs people with expert knowledge and that includes the reuse and recycling stage.
Now I need to get back to my Starbucks latte and wave things around..l lighten up... Life's too short to take on a cause like this.
I can afford one but I choose not to spend the money on it simply because the value proposition is pure insanity.
I am not bitter at all. I find that the rapid decline into consumerism that Apple promotes is disturbing, especially when they are trend-setters. I need to stand up for what is right now so in 5 years time, all vendors aren't producing such hardware.
Apple don't think about how to recycle these machines at all - they don't care at all and never will do unless it's good marketing (which is is since Greenpeace kicked off at them that is). They send you a label to stick to it - that is all. That will send it to a 3rd party who have paid Apple a lot of money to be the "preferred recycler".
Life's never too short to promote an opinion. After all that's all we are.
Just another factor to think about when you decide what and how much to trumpet ...
if they want to do what you suggest, don't make a big announcement and don't put it across the front page...(bottom-left area is fine in case they're trying to limit the exposure). what they've done is just stupid and inconsiderate to the hardware team and apple's fans, who love these types of innovations even if they can't afford them yet.
most people who loved the idea of the air and apple's achievement with it didn't buy one when it came out, haven't bought one since, and still had fun hearing, reading, and talking about it.
Technologically yes, in terms of industrial design, power envelope and form-factor no, it doesn't have the characteristic tapered edge (or the possibility to slide it into an envelope), and it remains very heavy compared to an Air: the weight has gone down to that of the "old" 13" MBP (4.46 to 4.5 lbs), but it's half again the weight of the 13" Air 2.96 lbs) and almost twice the weight of the 11" (2.38 lbs).
If you say "15 inch air" people have expectations that you couldn't have fit all the muscle this thing has into.
Currently @ 100% charge: designed: 6900mAh, current capacity: 6268 mAh
Plug it into a matching Cinema Display and you've got Firewire, GigE, etc., all via Thunderbolt.
Apple, once again, is betting on a new standard, which seems to be working.
(The HDMI port is a nice touch, since most modern projectors and large-screen devices support it.)
(1) 95% of statistics are made up.
I'm sure Apple, who actually sell the machines, and collect statistics, know what their users are after.
I'm not sure what you're referring to about statistics, as I never offered any statistics. I'd love to take a survey of audio and visual professionals and see how many of them have devices that either stream over Firewire (much more consistent bandwidth than USB2) or burn to disc (slightly less common). Brand new devices might use SD or Thunderbolt, but AV equipment is expensive and not always replaced every time Apple comes up with a new standard.
The Photoshop pros, photographer pros, etc. I know don't want to open up their laptops, but they're still pros.
This is true. I for one do all my computing with a goofy grin on my face, while riding a unicycle.
In all seriousness, this product will be perfect for me. The lower weight will help with my unicycling, and the 4-core i7 will look great with my butterfly wings.
Since the overwhelming bulk of computer users(including pro users) have no interest in fiddling with their computer specs post purchase, Apple are simply making a product that fits the market.
I'm not going to go into the historical precedence of laptops having limited upgradability, but as you've noted something had to give, and soldering the RAM is by no means a new idea.
No one here is saying we tear down our laptops and assemble them back three times a day. But if something like a RAM gets toast on my machine, I would like to get that replaced instead of replacing the whole machine.
Why, you might ask. Its because it works out cheaper that way. And besides, I don't throw away my car if some thing little goofs up! Why should I throw away my computer.
All of the computers have been updated post purchase. I've put more RAM into iMacs, more RAM and SSDs into MBPs, and Mac Pros got more RAM, video cards, SSDs, HDDs etc.
In fact, one of the very first things I do is buy more RAM for my MBPs because it is more economical to do it yourself. Then if you wait 2 years, you can again double your RAM for extremely low price.
If Apple were making only this harder because of physical design constraints, you would have a point. But they are also artificially constraining the OS to make it more appliance like, and less and less UNIX like. But that's OK. Most of the users wouldn't know UNIX from eunuchs anyway.
The elitism here is just disgusting.
I suppose all the graphic designers, photographers, programmers, and even just plain old novice users who love Apple products should just pack their bags and go back to pencils and paper. After all, if they're not doing any kind of serious computing, we really ought not cater to their needs, wants, or desires.
Computers are obviously only for people running batch processes with 95%+ CPU and I/O utilization.
Apple is trying very hard to convert a computer into a washing machine. Which is, giving it a specific use, like a TV or a refrigerator and tightly controlling everything behind that use.
Yeah,... Astro-Physicist here. 90% of my colleagues use Macs and we write most of the software that controls satellites and earth bound observatories on Macs.
Just an old science, entertainment, with no real or useable results :o).
How many people expect to compile and run stuff on their iPad? None, but it's a perfectly capable machine, more powerful than PCs of the 90s.
That (and related stuff) is what I mean when I write ( a bit further down) that there is no real operating system for a Thinkpad. Pity.
In a way, apple goes the same way that car manufacturers have gone already. Try to get a BMW repaired in a non-BMW workshop. Impossible, because you need BMW proprietary tools and Software. So BMW dictates the prices and they dictate, what parts have to be replaced for a certain error.
My wife and I use subway and bicycles where ever we can, since Mercedes, Porsche, Opel, Ford all try to do the same.
The computer in front of me is basically just an appliance now. That has no bearing on the actual work I do.
Um, you missed the last line of the post you replied to.
Last I checked typing text files and compiling them is more serious than most users and doesn't require massive clusters to accomplish.
Look at iPad. It's more powerful than PCs of the 90s yet no one even expects to run their custom code on it. This is where Macs and OS X are headed to.
There was a period back when computers were around 16Mhz that you could reliably keep a machine for many years and progressively upgrade it. The speed of progress has increased significantly since then, it's unlikely that you'll be able to find appropriate hardware for your machine by the time software has rendered it obsolete.
To break up the argument a bit:
- Soldered ram doesn't devalue the product, or present a less serious computer user. It reflects the reality that most people don't upgrade. This forum will definitely have a skew towards tinkerers, but it's not representative of the market, and there are already a slew of products to serve this consumer. - If it's broken outside of warranty there are indeed many avenues for low cost repair, even though this has a small chance of even occurring. - The cost of maxing out the ram is on par with market pricing. - Giving the user upgrade choices at purchase time is a better route than trying to hunt down parts later on. All computers become obsolete, minor spec upgrades won't stop this.
This is what incremental change looks like, ram being a quick solution for computing woes has reached the point of irrelevancy and 16GB of ram is certainly appropriate for the gamut of uses of such a device. Most speed gains experienced on this hardware will be the result of the SSD.
1) Back up data, wipe drive
2) Sell MBP on eBay
3) Buy new MBP with desired amount of RAM
4) Restore data
Now stop it. You're buying a Mac because you don't like to waste time dicking around with your computer, remember?
My fiancee, who is practically hardware illiterate, just installed brand new RAM and a new SSD into her 4-year-old MacBook. If she had originally purchased it with those upgrades, it would have been $500+ extra at the time of purchase. This week, it cost $150 for the parts on Amazon.
User-serviceable operations that don't require completely replacing the computer are important, and will surely affect many people's buying decisions. You don't get to say that everybody who wants a Mac will never want to waste time dicking around with their computer.
And I do like to waste time dealing with backups and Craigslist scammers? I'm buying a Mac because I want a Unix workstation with a solid UI. Lots of MacBook Pro owners are not terrified of screwdrivers.
The same goes for memory, hard drive, and other parts of the computer.
Also, the SSD makes you need less memory, since reading from it is so fast
So 16Gb will go a long way really.
"X MB/TB of resource Y will be plenty for a while" is almost always something we laugh about 2 years later.
Usually from what I understand in Europe at least, they pack them, mail them to an EU border country such as Turkey to comply with EU regs and certification and they're shipped on to the far east by the lowest bidder. They then appear in land fills and are picked apart by children for the copper...
But no way in the world would I like to throwaway a washing machine if something small went wrong inside it. That's where the tinkering part comes to play. I don't mind the knobs and dials, but claiming that not having user serviceable parts is not a requisite of usability gets really very difficult to believe in.
Not to mention if you hit your HD limit after a year the bigger drives are going to be drastically cheaper.
2x8GB SODIMM kit at crucial, $150.
Yes, extorsion is exactly the word I'd have used in this position, indeed.
CORSAIR 16GB for MacBook Pro - $89.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233...
Ha. Best of luck, friend.
I support Apple 100% in moving forward and removing the option of running, or producing, unreliable homebrewed code without authorization.
Actual programming experts can get a Mac Pro with and their programming license from Apple, or just run Linux on a PC."
Yes, I certainly trust that we won't be seeing posts like the above in the eventuality that Apple puts further restrictions on their (customer's) computers.
If I'm wrong I'll eat my hat. AND I'll switch to Linux.
Factory basic service information is not only easily available, it's free (at least in the US: they make you provide a US CC every 365 days for online access, so it might be MB-USA funding it, but the card is not charged). Parts are readily available aftermarket, from OE and non-OE suppliers. There's also several well-respected third party shops within a few miles of here.
I don't drive a BMW, but I know of two excellent (but not cheap) third party shops nearby.
Yes, some systems are computer-augmented for service, and require a beyond-OBD2 level of software, but that software is available (and a couple thousand dollars, a lot for an individual, but nothing compared to the rest of the tools a shop has to have).
I am quite happy with the supportability MB provides, and probably wouldn't drive one if your statement above matched my experience.
Side note: it's a pleasure to work on MB: very few "one time" fasteners (like those plastic Christmas tree push things, or ridiculously fragile/undersized plastic latches). Thing that you need to take apart are designed to be taken apart and put back together many times without damage or leaving ill-fitting parts afterward. You really notice the difference when servicing someone else's other brand, price-optimized car.
As a bottom line, workshops that can service cars with new production date vanish.
What you say is indeed the solution that came into my mind: buy a cool oldtimer (I especially like the Porsche 911 from the late 70s/early 80s) and buy a new house with a large garage. Tools are available already.
While that is historically true, it's not really the case for the new MBP: the 16GB RAM update costs $200, 2x8GB sticks cost ~150 at crucial. Meh.
> Then if you wait 2 years, you can again double your RAM for extremely low price.
Unless the chipset is at its physical limits, which is usually the case if you upgraded the RAM once on purchase.
2x8GB is ~$150. 2x4GB is ~$50[1].
Apple is charging $200 for a $100 bump in component costs. 100% markup is excessive.
[1] http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820233...
We nerds need to accept that we ate not apple's focus anymore. Just spec your machine high, pony up lots of money, enjoy the shit out of it.
Historically, Apple tends to be pretty good on support worth the price. If something like a RAM chip is toast, they'll usually replace the board, or even the whole machine.
The truth is that you can take your apple product into any apple store, or apple certified reseller worldwide and get the same level of replace or repair. The only difference is timing, Apple stores keep a limited stock of parts, while resellers must order them in. The difference in repair time works out to be a few days.
I'm told that the next day, he went to the store and they gave him a new, top-of-the-line 15" Unibody MacBook Pro with all his data preloaded on it. I have no way of proving that this thing actually has happened (but no reason to believe my friend was lying; as he's a respected and very honest man). This is not what always happens, but Apple is rich, and they know if they treat their customers well, they'll be customers again AND all their relatives & friends would be tempted to try Macs if they knew they could get a royal support like that. So, it's not a philanthropic thing, they do it for their business, but as they're very rich they are more generous than other manufacturers.
And just one other anecdote: another friend of mine's MacBook Pro died suddenly (no AppleCare either). Sent it to an Apple Store and they changes motherboard, RAMs and HDD free of charge.
Anymore? It's never been Apple's focus
Yes, pretty much. And "genius" have a lot of leeway in their handling of people coming in. They generally seem expected to try and make customers happy as much as they can, and I regularly see comments about completely unreasonable replacements allowed by apple stores.