Ask HN: Does the Framework laptop stand the test of time? 3-4 years ago, several HN submissions of the Framework laptop got 1k-2k+ upvotes. I'd like to ask those of you who got the laptop: does it live up to the hype? Will it last you longer than any other laptop? Did any paint points emerge? If you had no laptop today, would you buy the Framework laptop again? I would like to know how long you have used it, and which model you have. |
Software wise it's just worked out of the box with any Linux distro that I've tried. However Framework has been criticised for their slow availability of firmware updates (to which they responded and have gotten better at).
As has been mentioned in the thread already, the battery is not great. Expect about 3-4 hours of use depending on your workload (I do a lot of code compilation on mine).
Overall its a competent worker, but nothing amazing. Which I knew going in.
The old battery is not as good as it were (even though I only charge it until 75%, which the bios lets me configure) and the display hinges are a little too weak. The hinges got fixed for newer models, even in the factory second 1st gen Intel I bought for a friend they are fixed.
There was a time when they could not keep up with bios updates, but that has apparently been sorted out. And it's not worse than other vendors...
I have no regrets.
I hate to say it as a linux fan, but if battery life was any important I would buy a mac. I have mac pro 2017 which is probably of the same age, if not older, and the battery life is just so much better.
Jumping to the M-series would blow your mind, at least it did for me. After 8h of heavy usage my MBP still has enough left to just browse or watch something for at least another 1-2h, traveling by train and using it for lighter tasks had the battery last 14+h.
3-4 hours like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42564335 ?
That's still too early to say! My laptop (ThinkPad) is seven years old and I see no reason to upgrade. My work laptop is six years old Dell and is also fine.
No one thing was the breaking point, I just found myself reaching for my other laptops more as they would more reliably have power after sitting for a while.
If I wanted a Linux device I would give it a look today, but its battery life and general UX are significantly behind a Surface Laptop or Macbook Air/Pro, so no, I wouldn't buy one as my sole laptop.
I bought it after using a mac m1, so i was somehow under impression that i am buying a laptop to be used during a train ride, or watching a movie in a bed. It's none of that, i bought another "movable desktop pc".
Everything else is OK.
The battery doesn't last the length of a movie? Are you getting hardware decoding of the video?
I love the idea of it but am meh on it after 2.5 years. Good Linux support though.
- All the hardware works out-of-the-box in Linux, at least as far as I can tell.
- Swappable ports seems like a gimmick, but it's nice. A few months ago I realized I'd rather have a built-in Micro SD port than an extra USB-C, and that change was trivial.
- If I had bought a traditional laptop, I would have been very annoyed to have an upgrade with a much nicer screen and webcam released 6 months or so after buying the laptop. Instead, I just bought the new screen and webcam module and swapped them in in less than 15 minutes.
- Speaking of the screen, I've missed matte screens ever since Apple went glossy. It's really nice to go back. The 3:2 aspect ratio is a huge bonus, the extra vertical space is useful.
- On Linux, I get around 5-6 hours of battery life under my normal use, 8 or so under light load. That's more than enough for me. Finding a way to charge has never really been a problem since laptops switched to USB-C charging.
- The speakers are not great, and they're downward firing which makes them worse. The easyeffects presets here help quite a bit: https://github.com/ceiphr/ee-framework-presets
- The trackpad is fine. It's better than most non-Apple laptops I've used, but it's still nowhere close to a MacBook's.
- Most of the early issues with the processor have been solved with newer kernel versions. There's still a crashing issue that prevents running large accelerated LLM / image models: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/3482. This isn't a problem with the Framework specifically, but I wish they provided a BIOS option to reserve more VRAM.
- I'm very much looking forward to upgrading the RAM later without buying a new machine. I'll probably do this when the above bug is fixed.
- I wish there was just a little more focus on the details. For example, the swappable port modules don't sit exactly flush with the case on the right side (they're just barely recessed too deep) and it annoys me a bit every time I see it.
Overall though, it's my favorite laptop I've owned since the 12" MacBook. It makes me happy every time I use it.
The user serviceability and upgrade stories are real. The hardware isn't as svelte as Apple's, but mine has traveled all over the world and has yet to have any major issues. The one hardware failure I had was that the USB-C half of the charging cable on my 13" eventually broke after a few years of abuse, but that used to happen to me with Apple charging cables, too.
Framework has an active initiative to do outreach to different Linux distro communities and give them free hardware to help shore up compatibility. And, on that note, I haven't run into any Linux hardware compatibility issues (not with Pop!_OS, or more recently NixOS).
Speaking for myself, they have a loyal customer for as long as they continue to make this kind of hardware.
That beings said, my complaints about them are: They are a few hundred dollars more expensive than comparable hardware most of the time.
They were pretty slow releasing bios updates, although they seem to be getting faster at that.
There is no kensington lock.
After seeing the Linus tour of the factory where they fully assemble the DIY edition for testing and then take it back apart for shipping. I'm kind of annoyed. Find a different way to discount home users, you're spending more labor to get a lower price for your product.
How rigid would you say the frame is for Frameworks? Do you feel any flex at all when typing? Screen shake?
Over time, some of the laptops I've tried (cheap and expensive, many different brands) just feel like they start to fall apart. Either the screen hinges are junk and fail, leading to screen shake/nod whenever I type...or the frame is too weak, and the laptop itself starts to bend inward over time because I type hard.
If I could get something with an incredibly rugged frame, and excellent hinges, it'd be wonderful. I've seriously considered Toughbook's in the past, but the keyboard feeling for them is atrocious and the specs are always too weak.
It has good intentions but falls short. I would say overall it is a mediocre laptop in terms of quality.
Will it last longer than any other laptop? I would think so, it has a strong story of available parts and upgrades. Similarly I believe it would last longer than any other laptop, since you can essentially do a Ship of Theseus with it.
Pain points:
- display hinge problem, picking up the laptop would make the screen lie flat 180 degrees, which is really annoying - this has been fixed in newer versions of framework, but to get a new hinge kit costs $39 AUD plus $30 AUD in shipping, so I'm not willing to make that purchase due to the ridiculous shipping price.
- the modular ports are nice, but I'd rather just have fixed ports and more of them, of course that'd obstruct the repair/modularity story.
- sometimes the modular ports do not work after resuming from a hibernate, I have to eject and reseat it.
- the display is okay, I notice mine has a small granular line of off coloured pixels - i don't think this is due to any physical damage but rather a defect in the screen as I've never had this kind of issue with any other laptop and I've handled the framework fairly carefully; but this line of off coloured pixels is very faint and virtually unnoticeable at bright colours, so it's not a huge deal as I make it out to be.
- the keyboard works great, but I was hoping for an upgrade to something along the lines of an apple style layout with half height inverted-t arrow keys and fn/ctrl swapped; the idea of a marketplace for custom parts doesn't seem to really exist.
- Battery life of about 3-4 hours of very average usage.
- Speakers are trash.
I run Linux on it, and seems to run pretty stable.
I needed this laptop because I needed 32GB of ram for compile jobs. I have since got a macbook pro 16" with >32GB of ram and it can compile what I need using Rosetta 2 for Linux (so amd64 compiles). Since my mac can now do everything I need, I very rarely touch my Framework. I loathe the idea of having to use it over a mac laptop.
use used ThinkPads.
Advantages:
Zero new electronic waste created.
Several 'new' machines are cheaper than a Framework.
Small upgrades plentiful and cheap. A major upgrade of a'new' machine still cheaper and more environmentally friendly than a Framework.
Better battery life, keyboard, ergonomic design, ports, hinges LOL, etc.
Try one today: ebay.com
It's not perfect as battery life compared to the Apple Silicon MacBooks is simply not a competition, but everywhere else it's close enough for me.
Being able to upgrade the screen already was a huge "yes, thank you" as instead of needing to buy an entirely new machines for a particular upgrade I was able to quite simply swap in the new part, which is what I'm used to on the desktop hardware side of things. It's awesome! The community and Linux support is also very cool and I'm excited about a possible RISC-V board to pop in and the overall tinkering possibilities.
That said, if you just need a personal computer, it's hard to recommend in the most general sense I think. But for businesses I can see it being a no-brainer.
I posted a review here: https://vale.rocks/posts/a-year-with-the-framework-laptop-13
Also, I haven't updated my review to reflect it, but my acid sweat has been damaging the chassis a bit. Not too dire, but certainly annoying.
I don't know how long this one will last me, but I will try to keep it alive with spare parts for as long as possible. Repairing things, especially if they are treasured things, feels good. There was no need for any repairs yet, but I expect it to happen eventually. Or maybe I just want to upgrade things at some point.
If my lenovo T480s had any unfixable problems, I would have bought one myself, but this thing just refuses to die ;)
If I could change anything, there are a few things, I would improve...
- The speakers: i mainly use headphones, but these are pretty Bad. I'd love to See a partnership with ELAC[1] a german speaker specialist, with a more expensive paid opt in upgrade
- Battery life: improved a lot in the latest models but repairable components eat battery, maybe lpcamm2 RAM would improve this
- open source bootloader: like libreboot or oreboot
- ECC RAM support: this is probably hard to do but would be really appreciated
- support for audio jack headset remotes: some usb-c to audio Jack already support volume control via headset buttons on fedora
- single handed lid opening: the weight and balance should allow to open the LiD single handed, this worked most of the time but sometimes it won't
Re modular ports, I don't think they are super useful after you've selected your configuration, but being able to have a custom port selection is very nice.
I am using Arch, btw, and everything has been working well so far. I thought there were some drivers issue, but turned out it was due to my bootloader setup (https://yobibyte.github.io/kernel_update.html)
During these years, I ended up opening the laptop multiple times: - upgraded the monitor hinges: this was a major annoyance when travelling. - went through support to get the mobo repaired/swapped as one of the ports broke for whatever reason - ended up moving to AMD mobo, while increasing RAM and SSD simultaneously. - I bought the Coolermaster case for the i7.
Overall, all of the above happened as advertised. I enjoyed putting my hands on it, and to be honest, the engineering quality that went into it still impresses me.
There are a number of issues that I still find below grade but don't really bother me: - the speakers are definitely not great, I saw there is an upgrade available for them, will look into it, still not my primary use. - the original monitor was glossy, so ended up with an anti-glare screen cover. I now see that you can also have a matte version and one with bigger resolution, never been an issue, but interesting to see. - the fingerprint scanner is a bit jiffy, but I figure this is mostly a linux issue. - the battery was a major downside at the beginning under the i7, but right now I don't see it being an issue, at least under AMD: I get a good amount of hours and playing a movie on battery is something I can do without issues, draining just a few percent off it. (I'm currently running tuned and tuned-ppd if you want to know).
I'm very happy with it mostly, if not exclusively due to its upgradability and linux support. I only wish there was more competition in this sector.
I guess the point is I don't know which if the two above is correct. I know sometimes I have biases that even I'm not aware of though...
Im lucky enough I was able to also get a later M1 13" to compare against the Framework 14". The MacBook is still an absolute marvel, and will outperform the PC in almost all metrics most noticeably in battery/heat. But many small things bring me back the the Framework even considering that gap. The size of the framework 14" is incidentally _perfect_ for me, keyboard and display. The MacBook gives me serious RSI. Linux over OSX (yes, asahi Linux exists and has come a long way but did not meet my needs). And having monstrous amounts of ram and hd compared to the MacBook... most of my workload is bound by memory and storage and the CPU very much works "well enough". And overall customizability and longevity clenches.
edit: sorry, but that is a great point. by the nature of it often needing some troubleshooting/intervention, it's going to encourage a very precious attitude. So, it's still very much a niche thing so if you more value cpu, battery, and things mostly just work and can live with OSX, a MacBook can be much much better.
But I plan to actually upgrade the motherboard this year, so we'll see how that goes and looking forward to reading others experiences.
Is there a (video-)guide on how to do that? Why was the fan replacement warranted?
It works well with good build quality but battery life isn’t amazing. I rarely swap out the ports so less helpful than I thought.
In a couple years I might change the battery and motherboard. For my use case something with a Costco or Microsoft accidental damage warranty is probably the way to go but I’ll eventually upgrade the motherboard and battery.
- I would rather buy a MacBook now, the whole ecosystem is nicer. This is not Framework’s fault, Apple’s ecosystem just works and at some point you just want stuff that works. I absolutely love the AirPods and there’s always some minor annoyances when pairing with the laptop.
- The removable port adapters are nice but not that useful in reality. I occasionally change the charging port to the other side to make charging easier in different spaces. The HDMI adapter sometimes needs to be removed and reinserted which sucks.
- The build quality is good enough. I wouldn’t expect any less from any laptop at that price point.
- I believe the main selling point was that you could switch parts easily. However, I don’t see myself performing any major upgrade like changing the mobo/cpu. Those upgrades are fairly expensive. Also, I don’t see myself building stuff with a spare mobo/cpu.
- Given the previous point, I wouldn’t say this laptop is going to last me longer than any other high quality laptop. I have a Sony VAIO that is still working after more than a decade. I expect the same of this laptop and I expect the same of any high end laptop.
- speakers suck.
Overall I think the concept is really nice and I am glad that I supported the company. However, I think that making conventional laptops more repairable is good enough. Full modularity is a cool concept but it does seem to have a lot of drawbacks. Give me the ability to easily change the hard drive, the RAM, the battery, the keyboard/trackpad and that is sufficient for me. Maybe the screen.
If you are really environmentally conscious I would say you can achieve something similar by buying a high end device, using it 5-8 years, and then sell it/gift it when you need to upgrade.
There’s also the argument that a perfectly good laptop can end in a trash bin because of a faulty port or something minor. But honestly, I have never had that happen. Either I’m just lucky or electronics at this price point are generally well built. Given that you did a bit of research before buying.
Having said all that, I would not buy another one right now. The software side of things is just not up to what I expect. They still have not figured out lvfs for this notebook; the last bios update I could install was a manual EFI installer (which is beta at this point it in time I guess, only really "production" ready update is windows based installer). Also the bios I have is now a year old, and there only has been one non-beta bios upgrade in the whole lifetime of this model (~2.5 years). So the software side of things is just miserable... At this point in time I guess the next machine will be something with coreboot+lvfs and regular, timely updates (still taking suggestions ...). I guess I would be willing to give a framework+coreboot situation another try in a couple of years. The main reason for buying this is reusablilty once I decide to move on to the next hardware generation.
I had some issues with wifi and i2c drivers in linux presumably because the hardware was new and hadn't settled yet. Upgrading the kernel to get new drivers fixed it.
The machine looks and feels great. Good keyboard, good trackpad, good screen. I got 4TB NVMe and 96GB of RAM for cheap because I could install my own. I love that if something fails I can repair it easily myself so I don't have to wait on someone else. I love that I can swap out the ports, I didn't expect that'd be much of a benefit but I use it a lot more than I was expected. I have a handful of different expansion ports in the backpack that I swap out as needed. 8 hours of battery life with active usage.
It feels too good to be true, like if I dreamed up my ideal laptop manufacturer, but then quickly dismissed the idea as too optimistic.
Pros: * super modular, I have 2 usbc and 2 usba usually and the hdmi and ethernet on the backpack for when needed * it's pretty fast in comparison to my carbon x1 from 2021
Cons: * the motherboard died twice and they still don't know why. I suspect the charger as it stops charging after a while, something tells me they haven't fully figured out the motherboard completely yet. * BIOS software is also somewhat lacking still, but this is a well known problem they are hoping to fix with time * Battery life is not really the best, but again I blame it on the BIOS * fingerprint reader just works in Linux, and webcam too which is a difference with Carbon x1
I'm looking forward to future improvements and maybe seeing them enter the mobile phone market.
So full disclosure, even being immensely interested in their mission, I would have waited for the AMD version if my previous machine hadn't gotten wrecked in a car crash. Since insurance paid for it, it was essentially free. But. I've been daily driving a FW13 since early into their launch (Batch 4) and it absolutely holds up.
I'm still on a lot of the original hardware, and some of it is showing its age -- I'm particularly hard on keyboards -- but I'm aware that this is replaceable on its own. I also know I can just get the upgraded battery when my current one gives out, or eventually swap in a new display kit and also deal w the hinges in one go.
One thing that was exactly as magical as promised was upgrading the board. I opted for more RAM over a better CPU the first time but also had weird graphics driver issues under Arch when I tried running games on the 11th gen Intel board generally. Being able to clear up hardware-level issues by just installing better hardware, and then suddenly seeing a huge capability boost in what your machine is able to run, cannot be overstated. (I can also run smaller LLMs on it without pushing the limits of my CPU now.)
Some other gripes/musings:
- The DIY config should just bake the basic components into the up-front price. It's one thing to upsell on more expensive components (different expansion cards for instance), but as a customer it's irritating to see individual upcharges for things like bezels that I need as part of the build.
- Aside from wishing there were a good first-party way of recycling the monitor, I would be really interested in seeing a board that's just a USB hub, enabling the use of the body as an I/O device.
- I realize this isn't a Framework issue, but I wish there were an AMD board with more than 2 USB4 ports.
One of them had a battery failure: the battery swelled inside the laptop. Framework determined it was out of warranty, since it was more than a year from purchase, so we paid for the new battery. (Along with some extra excitement because the 45W supply isn't provisioned to handle peak demand without a battery, so we ended up with an Amazon-delivered 100W supply to keep it running until the battery arrived.)
The other machine occasionally hangs. We're still trying to run it down, but it looks like it might be the SSD powering down and failing to power back up.
My overall take is that I really, really want to love this product, but a work machine has to be reliable, and these laptops are falling short on that front.
The "repairability" doesn't really matter much when it doesn't break. Any CPU from the last 10 years should be good enough for me to just be coding in vim. Perhaps faster compilation speed for Rust but I mostly write Go anyways.
I'm hoping new parts will still be supported/available in 10 years when I'll actually consider upgrading anything.
The best thing about it is Linux support. I have friends who regularly get driver issues or whatever on other systems but that's never been a problem for me
Second, I would like you to rethink a decision. You didn’t ask for my advice, and I’m sorry to be so rude as to give it to you. But I’m hoping it will save you a bunch of pain.
When I read this, I really felt for you:
a new hinge kit costs $39 AUD plus $30 AUD in shipping
Sometimes we just buy the wrong tool and have to replace it. If $70 AUD is, say, 2-4 hours of your labor after taxes, I bet having that constant drag on the edges of your consciousness removed would be worthwhile.
For me it is almost always worth the replacement if it makes my working day easier and helps yield more billable hours. Plus, I bet if your significant other were that bothered by it, you would be only too happy to get the upgrade.
Again, apologies for thinking you need my help in this matter.
The hinge issue is egregiously bad, and I don't know how Framework could even ship these laptops in the first place without first addressing it.
I had to buy a friends Framework 13 to get parts to keep mine going, as spending $240 for just the top and bottom case and plastic screen bezel seemed excessive.
More users have put their Framework 13's on a shelf to languish than I expected. The alternatives all seem better polished.
Agreed on the battery unfortunately, on my first gen 13" it's just mediocre.
So most people don't need a lot of ports, they just might need different ports.
Many laptops i'm interested in come with soldered ram, meaning i can only buy something that's old and will stay old.
A lot of X280 and X13 come with 8gb or 16ram, which is truly a shame. I had 16gb ram in my X220 in 2014, ten/eleven years ago.
A lot of interesting ThinkPad models now come with a fixed keyboard i cannot change. Being somebody that likes us-ansi keyboard but that does not live in the US this means most eBay offers are not appealing to me.
Last ThinkPad i bought (X270) i just replaced the keyboard and ram (8->16gb). I cannot do that anymore with most models.
My X270 (for private use) it's getting old and I'm considering going for a brand-new laptop this time.
I have doubts between a new ThinkPad or a Framework. If Framework had an option to get trackpoint/ultranav that would be a no brainer.
I'm seriously torn on this. I'll probably go with a Framework 13 though.
I keep my laptop for many years each time so the idea of having the possibility to bump a laptop to up to 96gb ram (2 x 48gb ddr5) in some years is truly appealing.
- 3 extended, swappable batteries + third-party external battery charger (also has an internal battery T490 lacks)
- 32 GiB RAM
- i7-8650U
- 2 TiB SSD
- Retrofit/modded magnesium top case
- I pre-acquired replacement parts like fans, hinges, backlit keyboards, and case screws
- Works with Windows 11 + Razer Core X TB3 with an RTX 3070 Ti eGPU
Needs a couple of utilities to max out CPU TDP to 25W.
Used to be amazing, first one lasted a very long time (8years), my third one is currently giving up the ghost. And while Linux used to work great on them the uefi bios is so locked down that I couldn’t run it on the one i currently own.
On a related note, I’m out shopping for a new laptop and am considering a framework…
My 2012 MacBook Air also still works perfectly fine other than being extremely outdated.
I doubt that changing the mobo / cpu is something done very frequently, so I could accept it to be a bit more involved (as in require multiple screws instead of just pulling it out or similar).
For that, something like an HP EliteBook would be good enough. The laptops are fairly OK if you don't insist on good quality screens. They're easily serviceable for the most common parts (the battery is held in place with screws, the ssd and ram are removable, the screen hinges are screwed in, but are metal and quite robust).
I don't know how easy it is to find spare parts for these actual laptops, but my point is that this could maybe be a better compromise than the full-modular framework. Of course, HP has to change the models every year to look new, but a dedicated manufacturer wouldn't have to.
https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T... (PDF)
Also, I use a 49" external monitor with it more than the built-in panel.
Were they? Apple's earnings grew a lot during those time.
The harsh truth is that Apple's userbase will complain but in the end will keep buying anyway.
Not quite, and I tried.
Dell laptops with bother you if your power supply is not a genuine dell one.
Dell refused to repair a second-hand dell laptop (xps 15) under warranty because I did not have the receipt of original purchased.
Lenovo repaired my second-hand ThinkPad no question asked, because it was still under warranty. And the laptop i bought had the pick&return warranty package, so they sent a courier to pick the laptop from my home and they delivered it back within the same week.
Dell has been just unreliable in my experience. I fixed that laptop myself and sold it as soon as I could (and bought another used ThinkPad).
The LX40 had an atrocious clickpad. The previous LX30 had serious WiFi issues, that I fixed by swapping the card, but it was overall the better device. Then there's issues with trackpoint drifting. On my oldest one the trackpoint simply died.
On my e495 I'm getting weird driver issues, like Windows replacing the AMD graphics driver with a different one, so the Radeon control panel won't load and I can't control that useless VariBright feature. I can prevent Windows from doing this, but then one day the driver was just... gone and I've concluded that it's just better to let Windows do its thing. Also, crashes in Teams with too many windows open and while sharing, seemingly regardless of driver. Weird audio fuckups where the audio output craps itself randomly and starts crackling until reboot (fixed by installing an old Conexant driver and locking it down with group policy).
Also, they make some questionable design choices, like swapping Fn and Ctrl, which you can at least undo in BIOS. My newest one (E16 Gen2 Intel) has FnLock enabled by default (wtf?). Gotta ask why they even removed the separate utility bar above function keys in the first place. And then there isn't even buttons for media control anymore...
Also, don't get me started on Lenovo (Commercial) Vantage, which is an incredibly invasive and janky piece of software, but it does let me limit charging.
For some very fortunate reason I've never had sleep or hibernation problems. Feels like I dodged many bullets over the years.