Microplastics in the human brain(smithsonianmag.com) |
Microplastics in the human brain(smithsonianmag.com) |
Basically, you've got an extremely sensitive measurement system being used to make tiny measurements, and then they extrapolate these measurements by a huge factor to get to ug/g estimates. Further extrapolating (to the weight of an organ, say) when you know that there's 25% inter-sample variation, is just guaranteed to be nonsense.
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-024-03453-1
[2] "Both analytical laboratories (UNM and OSU) observed a ~25% within-sample coefficient of variation, which does not alter the conclusions regarding temporal trends or accumulation in brains relative to other tissues, given the magnitude of those effects."
Besides man-made plastics, guess what else has long hydrocarbon chains, occurs naturally in humans and other biological matter, and behaves similarly under pyrolysis...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid
Here's an interesting related article: https://www.oaepublish.com/articles/jeea.2022.04
Analysis of saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats was demonstrated to form the same pyrolysis products as PE
Their response is not especially convincing, IMO, but they do at least discuss it.
The Smithsonian magazine article is garbage. Ignore it. The paper is saying that they see longitudinal trends in plastic bioaccumulation in various cadaver tissues, and this is plausible. But no, you don't have a plastic spoon in your head. That's just panic porn.
[1] Actually...I just asked Gemini and it reminded me that the expected variance of a draw from a distribution, scaled by factor C, should have a variance of the scaled sample distribution that grows with C^2. So, if we scale up the measurement by a factor of 10,000, we'd expect the variance of the scaled estimate to be proportional to 10,000^2.
Saying a “spoon’s worth” seems to be downplaying the unmitigated potential risk. We have no idea what will happen as we (and all the other creatures on earth) keep storing more and more microplastics in our organs.
Nobody is going to stop driving. Car tires are the largest source of microplastics.
(actually I don’t drive though so who am I to judge)
oh
- Well, it's roughly the size of a two-year old child, if the child were liquefied.
How big is a spoon, anyway?
Well article says a teaspoon has 7g mass, and just spitballin here but I'd say a plastic spoon has about 1g/cm^3 density. And there are 4.83cm^3 in a teaspoon. So I guess in fact there are 1.44 teaspoons of teaspoon in the brain. Or would that be 1.44 tsp^2...?
But I'm an American and I have at least 3 imperial teaspoons of microplastic in my brain or gosh darnit I'm 2 bald eagles short of a touch down. If you know what I'm sayin.[1]
This assumes the presence of plastic is evenly distributed throughout the brain, which isn't necessarily the case.
Don't laugh, but I'm getting a new toothbrush to be safe.
> While we suspected that MNPs might accumulate in the body over a lifespan, the lack of correlation between total plastics and decedent age (P = 0.87 for brain data) does not support this (Supplementary Fig. 1). However, total mass concentration of plastics in the brains analyzed in this study increased by approximately 50% in the past 8 years. Thus, we postulate that the exponentially increasing environmental concentrations of MNPs2,14 may analogously increase internal maximal concentrations. Although there are few studies to draw on yet performed in mammals, in zebrafish exposed to constant concentrations, nanoplastic uptake increased to a stable plateau and cleared after exposure15; however, the maximal internal concentrations were increased proportionately with higher nanoplastic exposure concentrations. While clearance rates and elimination routes of MNPs from the brain remain uncharacterized, it is possible that an equilibrium—albeit variable between people—might occur between exposure, uptake and clearance, with environmental exposure concentrations ultimately determining the internal body burden.
Which means that if we were to take action on this, we might actually be able to reduce our exposure. Unfortunately, things are going in the wrong direction.
I keep thinking it would be nice if microplastic exposure were to start generating the kind of focus and controversy that is currently taking place with vaccines and autism spectrum disorder.
To anyone here that has made a deposit to the blood bank: we thank you.
And also may, or may not, be harmful.
I’m not a chemist, but it seems like if this can be done it would be huge.
I mean, assuming I do have a spoon's worth of microplastics in my brain, I don't notice any impairment.
I write JavaScript just fine.
We eat and breathe all sorts of stuff that comes in nano-sized particles. We've been inhaling smoke from cooking fire, eating plant matter crushed between rocks rubbing against each other, drinking water with dissolved bits of all sorts of things, and so forth for many millenia now.
The body seems to have mechanisms to clear most of this stuff out of us over time, no? Isn't our body chock-full of waste products from our cells that are constantly getting flushed out? Is there any reason to think that nanoplastics would be different?
Honest science on a foreign material in the brain or body should be able to present a baseline amount of total foreign material for comparison.
If our environment is now 10% microplastics, then 10% of the foreign material found in the brain being microplastics would be normal.
Okay I’m sorry for the snark but when these articles come up some are like “the studies are inconclusive of the effects” but I’m just like “there’s plastic in your brain!”
You didn't expound upon your point about the unintended consequences of CAFE standards but they're very real. Instead of making smaller and more efficient sedans per the guidelines, car makers opted start making all of their vehicles "light trucks" -- 80%+ of new vehicles are SUVs or bubbly looking "crossovers" -- which are not subject to the same demanding standards. Small sedans also cost less and would require ongoing R&D to continue to meet the CAFE standards. The end result, as this thread is interested, is heavier vehicles with bigger tires and more plastic in the environment and our brains.
Paradoxically most of the 'small government' types are often the biggest road users.
Does this mean that a bus that weighs 10 times as much as a small car will produce 10000 times as much tire dust? If it does, I'm not sure if investing in buses will reduce tire dust at all. A bus can replace a lot of cars, but 10000 is a stretch. We need more trains.
Thinking about it a different way, there isn’t much difference in recommended tire pressure among the autos I’ve owned. That means that the pressure between the road and the tire is relatively constant but the surface area of contact is directly proportional to vehicle weight. For a fixed contact pressure, I am struggling to imagine a physical process by which the rubber loss is not proportional to the contact area.
Cheap, easy maintenance, good fuel economy and speed, traffic jam immunity..
If there's no regulation then there's no will or urgency to waste money doing so.
The risk does seem fairly mitigated, most of us will make it through today fine. The only part of my brain I can account for now is the 1x credit card worth of plastic, all the other bits are a mystery. Death was inevitable before the microplastics, remains inevitable after the microplastics and things seem fine so far.
We don't know much about the risks of anything. People regularly douse themselves with mind-altering substances and ingest the weirdest variety of stuff.
And your philosophy of your own mortality is just as reductive, because humans have been trying to survive since time immemorial and do not actively work on their deaths unless in an unhealthy mental state.
This is an incorrect usage of the word "mitigate." To mitigate means to lessen the risk. Mitigation requires action.
I suspect you mean that the risks are "overstated."
If they're going for shock value they should use something more sinister than a spoon. Like enough plastic to make a little decorative Halloween spider. People would be more frightened by a spider than a spoonful of plastic.
many already have, bicycles and public transport ftw
As another commenter asked "How did the amount of brain microplastic manage to double between 2016 and 2025?" It is doubtful that the environmental concentration level doubled during this time.
I think it's "limited government". I'm pretty sure they would prefer roads get more spending.
I'd believe buses have a lot of tire wear compared to an individual car but I wouldn't use that relation as proof of just how many times so.
Donating blood is good for other people regardless of the profit motive from the company.
And if you're talking about the Red Cross, their CEO is reported to make less than 700k/year.
That's not bad for running one of the largest medical non-profits in the world.
you're correct. I mistakenly thought it was only carbon coming off the tires. So yeah, EVs have a significantly lower carbon output that ICE vehicles. My point still stands but thanks for the callout.
But really cycling and transit are the way to go to make cities more liveable. Personal cars take too much space in a city and ruin the built environment for everyone not in one.
To think that the minuscule difference in tire dust is significant at all, compared to the pollutants that EVs completely eliminates, is absolutely ridiculous.
The devil is in the details, yes. Have you considered that the policy makers have actually looked into the details? Have you looked into the details? Have you read any detailed reports about tire wear or did you just make up a problem based on your own intuition? Because I’ve seen reports from EV fleet operators that indicate that they see no difference in tire wear. Most likely the added weight (which isn’t all that much for modern, smaller EVs.. you know, the ones that people actually drive in urban/suburban areas in Europe) as a factor is drowned by other larger factors.
And we’re not that far away from EVs with the same or lower weight than their ICE counterparts, so getting these kinds of policies in place has some forward-looking aspects to them as well.
Despite their own health hazards no amount of tire particulate from EV's can achieve that level of widespread public health impact.
I live in a small college town a couple of miles from the college. I walk, run, or bike to work nearly every day. But I am not a purist about it. We have a snowstorm forecast for tomorrow so I am going to drive (my EV). Would it be better for the environment if I walked? Probably? Does one trip really make that much of a difference though? Probably not.
I think there are likely many many places where people can walk or bike to some of the things if not all of the things. People really should do that more (not the least reason because biking is wonderful). Biking to the grocery store is mostly impractical for me as it is many miles away. But that’s ok! I am doing other things.
Transit use is at 80% of pre-pandemic levels.
https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=22722
Farebox recovery ratios have consequently become even worse.
The new US government is also presumably not going to fund much transit expansion.
It'd be interesting to see if more people work from home on a given day than use mass transit to get to work.
It's also pretty similar in Australia at least and probably in more places around the world.
I live "in" a major American city. Well, a reasonably major Midwestern city. It's roughly a third the size of Rhode Island. It has half a million people in it.
The paper isn't clear what they mean when they said "~25% within-sample coefficient of variation", so I can't directly address what you're asking, but it's tangential to the point I'm making. My naïve interpretation is that they did an ANOVA, and reported the within-group variance, or something similar.
All I'm saying in my footnote is that, whatever the final point estimate, scaling it by a factor of C will affect the variance of the final sample distribution by C^2. So for example, if you have an 8% variance on the measurement at ug/g, and you scale it by 1300 (for 1300g; what the interwebs tells me is the mass of a standard human brain), then you'd expect the variance of the scaled measurement to be 1300^2 * 8%.
That makes a ton of assumptions that probably don't hold in practice -- and I expect the real error to be larger -- but illustrates the point.
If you do a small-scale measurement, say you get result of 5g, with a standard deviation of 0.2g. That means the variance is 0.04 g^2.
If you then scale the setup up by 1000 (=> getting 5kg as expected value), then the variance scales to 1000^2 * 0.04 = 40000 g^2.
BUT the standard deviation is still 200g. The relative uncertainty is NOT increasing quadratically!
(another sanity check: if you change the units by a factor of 1000, your variance must not increase, relatively).
But maybe I misunderstood your point?
The end of the Pacific Electric system was not a conspiracy theory by tire companies or anything like that; the price of the cars dropped and that's what consumers preferred, i.m.o.
Pretty much any major American city is less dense than it was 100 years ago. It was cheaper to build out than it was to build up.
It's a crying shame that they've stopped selling them in the US. Marketing (the real men need their Rams, thank you very much!) and the CAFE loophole seem to have won the day, though, and we're all worse off for it.
Because I have a well. A deep one. And an osmosis system.
Yes they are unavoidable, just the plastic containers etc probably give some and I do eat candies and imported bananas and bread etc. But pretty sure I get a lot lower dose than most people.
However I'm not sure it matters that much until a mechanism of actual damage is established.
They didn't "scale the setup". They made a small-scale measurement, then extrapolated from that result by many orders of magnitude. They didn't grind up whole brains and measure the plastic content.
Imagine the experiment as a draw from a normal distribution (the distribution is irrelevant; it's just easier to visualize). You then multiply that sample by 10,000. What is the variance of the resulting sample distribution?
Relatively? The same. Yes it scales quadratically, but that is just because variance has such a weird unit.
Just consider standard deviation (which has the same physical unit as what you are measuring, and can be substituted for variance conceptually): This increases linearly when you scale up the sample.
An example: Say you take 20 blood samples (5 ml), and find that they contain 4.5 ml water, with a standard deviation of 0.1 ml over your samples.
From that, your best guess for the whole human (5 liters, i.e. x1000) has to be 4.5 liters water, with standard deviation scaled up to 0.1 liters (or what would you argue for, and why?)
All of that stuff you listed comes from tax dollars, and people ultimately care less about that than what's coming out of their pockets for a home purchase. Well, until it's unsustainable, anyways.
In this country we have this ideal of a rugged individualist whose out there living off the land and making his own way. Never will this rugged individualist acknowledge that he's dependent on 10x as many miles of roads as his urban counterpart. Never will this rugged individualist acknowledge that providing him with internet access on the state's dollar costs orders of magnitude more than someone living in a sustainable location. Same with delivery costs and literally every other thing this person consumes. They get to pretend to be a self-reliant individualist while leaching off of the tax dollars of urban residents who cost a fraction of the amount to support.
Thankfully we have Starlink to replace pork consumption with actual services.
Tire wear is caused by the surface of the tire being rubbed off through contact with the road. Most tire replacements happen because too much rubber has worn off of the contact surface.
While that happens some in the other direction, that’s not what usually causes road failure. You can tell this because pot-holes and other road failures have abrupt edges - they are not the road material until nothing is left but the earth beneath.
Roads also wear by being elastically deformed by the weight of the vehicles upon them. Eventually this deformation leads to failure of the road material, and it breaks away from the rest of the road, creating cracks and pot holes and so on.
Because the cause of failure is different, I don’t have any reason to expect the effect of vehicle weight to be the same. Moreover, unlike tire wear, its easy to hypothesize a physical reason that heavier vehicles will disproportionately wear the road: heavier vehicles will cause more deflection, and every material I have experience with will fail from repeated deflection faster if it’s deflected more.
And for what it is worth, the paper itself has plenty of other interesting findings that OP fails to discuss or rebut at all. OP asks an LLM some very basic statistics questions, putting into question their ability to credibly apply and interpret the LLM's findings.
My interpretation of that evidence is that OP, a random internet commenter, just doesn't think it is credible that plastics are harmful to humans, and is grasping at plastic straws with cherry picked evidence and poor rebuttals to reach that "fact based" conclusion.
So what? If some things haven't been discussed or rebutted, then just say that the argument is incomplete for those reasons and move on.
That means, all else being equal, a car company makes more profit selling a vehicle that has a higher profit margin. The $80k trucks my family members buy do not cost 3X as much to manufacture as say, a nice Camry, but the price you pay is about 3X. This means the dealer/manufacturer just outright make more money if a higher percentage of people buy trucks instead of small cars.
Consumers have "signaled" that they will be fine paying three times as much for the same exact feature set (no, they are not hauling anything, and there certainly isn't a massively higher percentage of Americans doing truck things than 50 years ago), even using longer term loans to make it happen.
When the car market has been basically saturated for decades, how else do you "make line go up" than selling the same product (transportation) for more money?
> ... even using longer term loans to make it happen.
I don't understand how so many people are driving these vehicles. Not only are they 2-3x as expensive to buy or lease but they're also 2-3x more expensive to fuel and maintain. (Probably to insure, too?) I don't have any data to back this up but my intuition tells me that these vehicles and their loans could be the cause of the next subprime mortgage-esque financial crisis.
US supermarkets are massive, take forever to buy small amounts of groceries, and even the walk to and from the car is long.
A better world is possible! (If better grocery stores constitute a "better world")
I lived that life in my 20s
Turns out I don't actually want to go to the grocery store every day. I want to go once a week and stock up, which I can do thanks to inventions like the refrigerator and the automobile
running errands with your own two feet every day by walking, cycling, etc keeps people healthy and lean. this country has a major car problem. it’s sad.
of course one can go to the gym to stay lean and healthy, but that’s even more time consuming than stopping by the store for 5 minutes on the way home, and it requires extreme motivation. Hardly an improvement i’d say.
Nobody wants less flexibility, rigid plans and higher maintenance costs. I think what you really want is a big house with lots of space away from other people and since you can't have your cake and eat it too you've sacrificed everything else.
Now, if you are really attached to your car and are only open to using your car for groceries, stay in suburbia, it's oversupplied through centralized planning and not at risk of going anywhere!
So you really need to move away from roads. That's possible, but it's really hard to do in most developed nations. Just moving away from a city won't get you to where you need to be. Even when you get there, you have other issues. Like, food, energy, water/sewage treatment, etc.
I don't think people realize how difficult it would be to get away from this particular pollutant in our environment. I mean most of us don't own 500 acres in the Brazilian, Namibian, or Ghanaian countryside that we can retreat to. Even Brazil may be too far gone at this point to be honest. And Brazil is enormous. A lot of space. The number of tolerable nations that would have unaffected areas is decreasing fast. This really is a global problem.
ETA: Some remote parts of Canada and Alaska might fit the bill? Assuming you're not big on quality of life.
I’d wait until somebody can clearly state what the demonstrated harms of microplastics are before you conclude that there’s nothing you can do. An EV reduces emissions that we KNOW are bad, and over their lifetimes, the reduction is huge compared to an ICE vehicle. If you’re worried, though, walk or bike whenever you can.
Biking to grocery store is not an option for you, but you can still make a difference if you think about it. Eg, go to the store less frequently. Switch to a chest freezer for perishables. And so on. Draw up an energy budget and do the math.
There is a cost to human life, sure. But you can make it work if you really care enough. You are definitely not screwed.
"Microplastic Free", no, there is no such thing right now. But I'm very far from any major roads/interstates and hundreds of miles to any big city. I didn't move out here to avoid microplastics though, it just (maybe) turned out that way.
I'm actually not terribly afraid of microplastics at all, I just don't like urban environments.
In a prewar US mid sized city, the density supports multiple grocery stores I can reach in about the same time as driving and finding parking.
Do you really grow enough food to make up most of your diet on RO water? And is this specifically to avoid microplastic exposure, or what?
Specifically produce, however we grow most of what we eat. We pressure can, dehydrate and ferment to preserve. I have background and decades of experience in growing, which is to say it's more than just standard hobby garden level.
The RO water is not to avoid microplastics (although that might a side benefit) but rather that the water is highly mineralized. It would be a long post to explain why I do this. Some is theoretical health concerns, some is more practical.
This is the thing about all the microplastics articles I see popping up: they rarely include any description of harm. If they even mention it, it is only speculative, as in this article. Until I read a scientific article about real harms, I am going to regard most of the microplastics news as fearmongering. Humanity has been surrounded by vast quantities of plastic for decades; if there was a big effect, wouldn’t we have seen it by now? If it has big effects, those effects would be surprising, which means that the evidence would have to be strong. I don’t see a lot of strong evidence.
If anyone reading this has a paper like this, please share.
If microplastics are making our lives 10% worse in some dimension, we will have to stumble onto what that dimension would be basically by luck and then spend at least a decade rigorously studying it before we could make useful assertions.
The hubub about microplastics is that, we don't have great civilization wide health data on most health dimensions, so we don't even have good baselines to figure whether we have regressed in many ways. IF there is a negative effect, it will effect everyone all over the planet and there is no escape
It's an extreme corner of the likelihood/amount of harm graph, and some people think that corner of the graph warrants caution even before harm is proven.
It's the same situation we faced with leaded gasoline, and the US is pretty bad when it comes to those kinds of "mild, diffuse harm that mostly affects people who can't afford whatever system the wealthy use to avoid the harm" problems.
It's not fearmongering, we are literally gambling that microplastics have minimal harm right now.
We don't have control groups, they're found in virtually every complex organism on Earth, including (best we can tell) all humans, so we can't form a control group. We've only recently really started to notice, care, or study them, so we don't have strong historical data to compare against. We don't have many isolated populations (especially of large enough size) where microplastic bioaccumulation is the only major difference in how their lives have changed in biologically relevant ways over the decades, so we can't effectively isolate the effects of microplastics from other confounding factors.
So you have these things that basically became completely ubiquitous--an unavoidable fact of not just human life, but all complex life on Earth--before anyone realized, with several other major global factors shifting concurrently. The end result is that, by the tools and methods with which we perform science, it's nearly impossible to study their exact effects. Maybe they're a slow-burning apocalypse subtly disrupting the mechanisms of life at their most fundamental levels and only getting worse with time, or maybe they do nothing or next to nothing like having a glass of sherry with your Sunday brunch once a week, or maybe they're somewhere in that vast, murky expanse in between the two extremes. Hell, there might even be a net benefit somehow. We just plain don't know, and don't know how we could know, so speculation is just about all we've got at present, and without knowing it's really hard to say if the messaging and literature surrounding the subject is aggressively over-alarmist or recklessly under-alarmist. The best we've really got is the simple fact that we notice them now, and thus have the chance to pay close attention, part of which is regularly taking basic measurements like these to try and correlate trends.
About all we do know is that they weren't here before, and "before" encompasses 99.9999% of all life that we know to have ever existed, so it's definitely weird and maybe probably bad.
There's definitely criticism to be had with the broader state of public health and science communication that harm, or at least the understanding that "we have literally no idea what the broader implications of this are but they're maybe probably not good", are considered to be implicit, either due to fallacious appeal to nature or the simple fact that alarmist headlines catch more attention, generating more traffic and revenue, and thus acceptance rates and grant money downstream. Which is, I think, the real core of the issue.
I did live this exact lifestyle in my 20s. I was definitely more active but my diet was way worse. I was closer to a lot of restaurants, and I was closer to a lot of bakeries and convenience stores and such as well.
A healthy lifestyle also requires a healthy diet and city living gave me far too much easy access to snacks and junk food. A lot of "it's only 5 minutes to go buy a snack". Daily stops for coffee that often included a pasty
Yeah, the walkable city does mean people are more active
It doesn't necessarily mean they are much more healthy. It still requires other forms of self control (which I admit, I struggled with)
I agree, it’s not a magic fix for all issues! But it does address one major component, the physical activity part. The other is diet, which is a separate issue of course.
one can go to the gym
And by that you mean drive to the gym, right? ;)I actually did live in an apartment a block away from a grocery store and yes, you're right. I would not trade my current house for having a grocery store that close
Because living in apartments sucks
But even if I did live in my current house with a grocery store right next door, I still would prefer to go as few times a week as possible. Planning ahead and limiting how often I am at stores helps me tremendously with sticking to a budget, which is also something I place a lot of value on
When I lived close to a grocery store not only did I spend more because the prices were higher, I also made more frequent trips for things on a whim, like snacks and treats. It was a much more expensive lifestyle
Maybe other people don't have that same struggle with convenience, but I do. By making the barrier higher, my life is more affordable and I eat less junk food for sure
This is all just my experience though
This depends on a) what you want, and b) the apartment. If you want a garden, then an apartment is a non-starter, obviously. Also if you care about what the exterior of the building looks like that you'll want a house. But other than it doesn't make much difference.
The main difference for me is insulation from your neighbours. I've lived in good apartments and bad ones. The best ones you simply forget that you even have neighbours. The worst ones you can't forget because you can hear their conversations and them locking doors etc. The trouble is it's hard to tell what it's going to be like before you move in and this isn't the kind of thing that has standards or that anyone seems to think about. So for someone sensitive to noise, but also likes to make a lot of noise (I'm a musician), I'm resigned to living in a house too. But I'm not sure it has to be this way.
I don't have any links I just figured it out, but it's not super complicated. I made it out of undersink RO membrane housings (housings from those little RO systems you can buy for around $300 that do a couple of gallons a day). The membranes have pressure pumps in front of them that get it up to a couple hundred gallons RO water total a day.
Basic steps are 1) Soften the water, 2) Pass it through very tight filters (like 1 micron), I also carbon filter for organic contaminants, 3) Booster pumps put water through osmosis membranes and from there into a storage tank.
I just used plastic totes with gravel in the bottom to house the membranes and booster pumps.
I should write up a blog post on it one day because professionally installed osmosis can be expensive.
Dunno about you but I only have two hands and can only carry so much at one time
I could have bought and brought a wagon or something I suppose, but that presents its own problems.
Where do I store the wagon in my tiny apartment?
What do I do with it when I'm actually in the store shopping, to make sure no one steals it while I'm in the store? I can't bring it into the store, it's too bulky for narrow urban grocery store aisles
How do I get my wagon full of groceries to my apartment, with no elevator?
Actually how do I get my empty wagon up to my apartment even, it's not going to manage narrow stairwells very easily even empty. So even if I leave it at the bottom and carry my groceries up by hand, I still have to get the wagon itself upstairs somehow
And then I also own a wagon that takes up my limited apartment space, which I only use to get groceries and provides no other utility for my life.
Unlike a car which I use all the time and only one of those uses is getting groceries
They're incredibly popular here, and yes, all supermarkets will have a lock stand near the checkout area so you can leave them there and easily reach for them as you're bagging your groceries. They're also foldable and/or small enough to fit in almost any closet.
Never seen a grocery store with a lock stand for these things either
I may stop by a store again during the week for a smaller trip if there's something I really need, or pop to a corner store if I need to grab something like drinks for guests, but it's not out of my way.
It's really not a big deal. Bike panniers can hold a ton.
>short of a rickshaw you ain't getting all of that on a bicycle with or without panniers
Four Americans, maybe.