Give up 70% of the way through the hyperstitious slur cascade
https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/give-up-seventy-percent-of-...
I've yet to see anyone put this quote in context to show that the user of it meant it to be racist or offensive. Absent that context I take issue with people singling it out as an example of toxicity.
I'm not even convinced that we've hit the 70% mark on this hyperstitious slur cascade. I know a lot of people take offense at it, and if this keeps going then we'll certainly hit 70% within the tech world very quickly as people drop the phrase like a hot potato, but as of right now I'm not comfortable with the way that this maintainer is being attacked for a single phrase.
If they've demonstrated a pattern of toxicity, let's talk about that pattern, not about one hyperstitious slur.
That said, for many people, it is a hostile phrase that refers to privileges that law enforcement provide for each other and those close to them but not others. Things like letting people out of tickets, misapplying situational judgements to make a victim look like the perpetrator, lying on the stand about it, etc.
In that context, it’s a phrase with bad optics. I see presumably why they chose the phrase but that also presumes they were not aware of how it’s used by many American police officers. It would otherwise seem incredibly tone deaf; well past the 70% figure among those circles.
For most of the US for most of history, "the thin blue line" has been an unequivocally positive phrase describing people who stand up for what's right and protect against chaos. Whether we should have seen it that way is irrelevant to the question of whether we can reasonably expect an average Linux kernel maintainer to both be aware that some people take offense at it and adjust their language accordingly.
This kind of language policing is inherently discriminatory against older people who spent their early lives immersed in mythology surrounding police and haven't been exposed to the cultural shift, not to mention against people who live outside the US, were exposed to US media, but can't be bothered to keep track of US politics.
I find it highly unlikely that he isn't aware of what meanings that idiom carries with it. It's possible but I'd need some serious convincing to believe he didn't.
Not just that, he basically demanded that one of them has to go:
"A maintainer speaking those words can't be kept. No matter how important or critical or relevant they are. They need to be removed until they learn."
The word "crybully" comes to mind.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43043312 ("We are the "thin blue line" that is trying to keep the code high quality (kernel.org)", 166 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43036904 ("Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead (marcan.st)", 966 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42926732 ("[flagged] Hector Martin: "Behold, a maintainer sabotaging the Rust for Linux project" (lwn.net)", 22 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42932105 ("A Linux maintainer admitting to attempting to sabotage Rust for Linux project (treehouse.systems)", 14 comments)
He also contributes to Asahi Linux, and is apparently good friends with Hector Martin.
It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust.
I don't think that's what's happening here.
A lot of the rhetoric around all of these situations has a framing of "Rust people" coming into the kernel, and then getting into fights with "Kernel people." It's often combined with various stereotypes of each group, that the Rust folks are younger, less experienced, that the kernel folks have been around the block a few times, etc.
But that framing just isn't the case. The people involved are both: they've been working on the kernel for a long time, and then want to use Rust to improve it.
So if you read your parent very literally, sure. But if you read it within this context, people are not saying that he doesn't write Rust code, they're saying that this idea of "Rust people" is irrelevant to what's going on.
Looking at what has happened since 2010 and how the vibe has changed, it seems to have been extremely successful.
It started soon after Russia's demands around European security were denied, and it initially spread from the places where Russia historically had most support: universities.
> "we are the thin blue line"
> This isn't okay. This isn't creating an inclusive environment. This isn't okay with the current political situation especially in the US. A maintainer speaking those words can't be kept. No matter how important or critical or relevant they are. They need to be removed until they learn. Learn what those words mean for a lot of marginalized people. Learn about what horrors it evokes in their minds.
I opened the article relatively certain about the nature of the complaint. 100% confirmed.
Seriously? Really? It seems Herbst is the one that wants a non-inclusive environment (ie. exactly conforming to his personal political preferences). Additionally this looks like an excuse as he was already admittedly burned out.
In any case, good luck to Herbst in his future endeavors, hopefully he can develop a thicker skin.
You have to understand that "inclusive" is newspeak and now pretty much always means that.
IIRC, of the 50 most violent cities in the world, 17 are in Mexico.
This means that a lot more people who have seen grisly things (beheadings by cartels etc.) are present in the US, and this raises the awareness about what could also happen in the absence of a police force.
The more cynical would call it propaganda, but I think there's more to it than that: it dates back to old westerns and draws from a rich history of hero literature. The police became a subject of that pre-existing tradition.
and then want to use Rust to improve it.
Another commenter makes good points contrary to this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43058238
Not that it is incorrect to say that the phrase is tied to policing, just that it is similarly not-incorrect to say it is not tied to policing. It is context-dependent. It’s not so obvious that this particular use of that phrase is at all related to police work.
It seems more likely to me that he used it out of a lack of political savvy than out of an excess of it, and that the pressure will now mount and he will be forced to make an apology or resign outright. It's unlikely that activists would take ignorance as an excuse, since they tend to consider ignorance of social justice conflicts to be a moral failing in itself.
Though to be fair, I tend to assume that everything has baggage with someone somewhere, since I’ve worked with people (middle aged white men, to be clear) who managed to be offended on other people’s behalf with nearly anything I said. For example, I never learned how to refer to women: saying any of ladies, girls, guys, or women, got me in hot water. I quit that job before I ever learned the secret, non sexist way to speak of or address women.
So, while I’m not surprised a middle aged white dude is upset by “the thin blue line”, I do have a natural inclination to sympathize with whoever used it.