My Google HR Response

13 points by nodegree_throw 13 years ago | 26 comments

(throwaway account) Reply following approach by Google (due to Stackoverflow etc), then rejection on sending CV.

Thoughts? Do you hire non-degree holders?

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Hi (HR person),

Thank you for your reply. I had to think about this for a bit, as Google is the first company/client I have ever had ask about my degree (or lack of).

Unlike other disciplines like mechanical engineering or architecture, we programmers can start at an early age building virtual things, exploring complexity and simplicity. Many of us spend a considerable amount of time studying the science, rather than just coding.

I have had a lot of exposure to CS graduates over the past year, at a highly regarded UK university. Of those I encountered, most of students were doing it because they were bright and didn't know what to do with themselves. Some "downgraded" (as they saw it) from maths or physics because it was harder than they thought. Of the remainder, half were ego driven coders and half were actually any good. The very few that were good nearly dropped out because they were not excited enough (and some of them even ended up coding cool things alongside me).

You can't build amazing things without science, and the Internet means I don't require a degree to learn the science to build cool things. I can do that on my PC, right here, very cheaply and efficiently.

I do accept that the cost of exploring what excites you most without the formal structure of a degree has its costs (such as being filtered out of Google's hiring process) ... despite this I wouldn't go back and earn a degree if I had a time machine, so that's a cost I happily accept.

One of the beautiful things about programming is its immediate availability to all who want to learn ... even those who decide to do things differently.

I hope Google would in future take a longer look at people learning on their own steam, in their own time and out of love.

Regardless, I've very much enjoyed talking with you and I hope you find great candidates for the positions.

Thank you for your time! (me)

ChuckMcM 13 years ago |

See the 'lying' thread. Yes folks hire non-degree holders, Google doesn't. When I was working there and talking/dealing with HR and the Google Hiring process I once tried to refer a non-degreed friend but they were having nothing of it.

Basically at the time (2007 - 2009) they had a very firm "No degree, no job." And a more insidious, "if you get acquihired in and the job you are in would normally fall under this rule, and you don't have a degree, we manage you out of the company."

Given the size of some of their later acquistions I don't know if they could stick with that model or not.

j_baker 13 years ago | |

They've loosened up a bit. I was acquihired as an engineer without a college degree. And thus far, I don't think I'm getting "managed out", but perhaps they're just doing a bad job of it.

That said, I don't know what they're doing for people who apply the "regular" way.

ChuckMcM 13 years ago | | |

That is good to hear, I always felt it was pretty ridiculous. Presumably you've been slotted? That was the base mechanism which caused a ton of ill will.

nodegree_throw 13 years ago | | |

Interesting stuff :) I'm glad things are going good for you. I could understand it more if I just fired off my CV to them, but Google approached me ... though I suspect they approach a lot of people ... a lot.

nodegree_throw 13 years ago | |

Wow, "insidious" is right. That's pretty brutal given that you must have performed well up to the acquisition.

nodegree_throw 13 years ago | |

Just read the lying thread (presuming it is the one surrounding Blank's recent post). Very interesting, esp the top post.

guyzero 13 years ago |

I don't know if this is really strictly true. There are a handful of people I know of who got hired at Google the "regular" way and they don't have CS degrees. One has an undergrad in Electrical Engineering and a PhD in Pure Math, although he's worked as a software developer basically his entire career. I know people with Computer Engineering degrees who work there. And of course outside of core eng people are all over the place. Which is probably not relevant to your situation.

nodegree_throw 13 years ago | |

Good stuff. They still have a degree though. I don't, by (foolish?) choice. Interesting that 'a degree' seems to be the approach rather than a specific CS degree though, thanks :)

guyzero 13 years ago | | |

Yeah, cold comfort, sorry.

jdelsman 13 years ago |

It's annoying that even if you have a degree in Theoretical Linguistics or something absurd like that, you can still get a software/hardware engineering job at Google. Google really need to think harder about their approach to hiring if they want to remain a powerhouse. What happens when, in the near future, the computer science graduating pool (i.e. the "bubble") becomes flooded with losers who don't know their ass from their elbow when it comes to building a great product for the web or anything else?

coroxout 13 years ago | |

I agree with your point but I don't know if theoretical linguistics is really such an absurd degree to show programming aptitude. It's quite an analytical subject and the structures of natural languages do have some parallels with the structures of programming languages, plus of course natural language processing is a big area of computational research.

When I was choosing a degree I often heard that people with Classics degrees found it easy to get recruited as programmers. I have no idea how true that is but my former boss took that route. I dropped out of my CS degree and often wish I'd studied something language-related instead.

(I didn't really know what CS was before I started studying it - what I really wanted was to learn to take my programming to the next level of turning little 100-line programs into real projects, which I know now is almost unrelated to theoretical CS and really just needed a little more reading and a lot more practice. This was in the days before StackExchange and Github, or I might have worked it out in time to save myself from being yet another CS dropout.)

pasbesoin 13 years ago | | |

I'm put in mind of Larry Wall, although I don't know whether he is a "theoretical" linguist.

Also, my father has told me (being more of that generation), and I have read, that many early entrants into the CS field had backgrounds in linguistics.

That said, the described Google policy of degree trumping ability, I find disappointing.

However, from a point of analysis, it's a simple filter, and after applying it, a "premier" venue like Google will still have a significant oversupply of highly qualified candidates.

But... it puts me in mind of Google's reputation for support: You only get a response if you're one of "the important people".

Don't count on your "looks", Google; they don't last forever.

jdelsman 13 years ago | | |

Theoretical linguistics was an example.

nodegree_throw 13 years ago | |

I agree mostly. Hard to swallow that you are being ruled out because you don't (by choice) have a qualification that doesn't really determine aptitude. Blank's recent post comes to mind: http://steveblank.com/2012/07/30/lying-on-your-resume/

equity 13 years ago |

I sympathize with the rather cold response from Google. However that was not a response from Google HR -- it was a response from a contract recruiter, and Google has hundreds of them. Because Google sees so many resumes that they can be picky. You may very well indeed be a top notch candidate so don't take it personally.

That said, as a Googler, I understand why they will hire non-SWE with phds in chemisty, neuroscience, or particle physics or what have you -- it's because Google has unique problems to think about that are not just pure software engineering. For instance, how do you scientifically evaluate the current search quality and ensure that it continues to improve? Google is very research-oriented and data-driven, and this spills over into the SWE work so it's not always 100% about building good software.

nodegree_throw 13 years ago | |

I 100% agree with you wrt to their reasoning. It does seem sound given the problems they are trying to solve requiring diverse skills etc. Interesting that they contract it out. Thanks :)

Zenst 13 years ago |

Quality of the degree - is that a issue or do they just look at ticking a box? Reason I ask is that I'm sure there are countries out there who for a small donation will give you one. Utterly useless but does afford you to say - yes I have a degree.

Still if Bill Gates applied, I guess he'd get rejected as well. Same with Zuckerman, many others as well. Guess your qualified to start a big empire yourself by not having one.

nodegree_throw 13 years ago | |

Well let's hope my startup goes well then!

nodegree_throw 13 years ago |

Note: Google approached me after seeing my stackoverflow account and other things on the Internet. After a very nice email chat, I sent my CV and got rejected due to no CS degree ...