The American vs. European Mindset on Life(mertbulan.com) |
The American vs. European Mindset on Life(mertbulan.com) |
First, it has to be said, online cultural osmosis and working for an international American company are two very narrow experiences of American culture. The anecdote they use to demonstrate German 'European mindset' - their flatmate using used furniture - is not something that one would be exposed to online or through business connections. That they saw it as notable to have used furniture in the first place I find more telling, which brings me to my next point.
This post is more a condemnation of middle-upper class consumerism and greed than American culture in particular. While it's fair to say the US spawned and championed the mindset, as noted in the post, it's spread far and wide in the decades since.
Now, why does the distinction matter? Well, there are gazoodles of people in the US with the 'European mindset'. You don't see them through international business connections, you don't see them out and about in San Francisco, you don't see them making blog posts about it - not ones that would be shared on Hacker News, anyway.
To those in the middle-upper-class tech sphere they don't exist. I'm happy for those who gain something from posts like these, who are inspired to adopt a more deliberate way of living. But furthering the perception that the 'European mindset' is tied to specific material things (in this case, living in Europe) only helps to perpetuate the 'American mindset', and further erase the existence of alternatives to it!
On the other hand, in recent decades I had a German colleague who was fully into treating furniture like "fast fashion". He loved things like IKEA and changing out whole sets of room furnishings on a whim. He tried to rationalize it as sensible to buy cheaper stuff since it was going to "be discarded anyway", and never really seemed to reflect on the idea that maybe he didn't need to change everything so often!
When I looked up average work week hours it actually looks like the US is comparable to most EU countries. Some states even have much better numbers than some EU members, like Greece (which is trending toward a lengthening work week).
https://landgeist.com/2022/02/08/average-weekly-working-hour...
It's important to remember that [flagged] often says something about the comments rather than the article.
In this case, though, the author's good intention is clear and the discussion seems at least relatively fine, so we can take off the flags and I've done that now.
Having lived in both systems and currently living in a country that clearly reflects the European mindset, I feel well positioned to compare the two.
But that’s not the author’s point.
“The reason I wanted to write this post is to share the idea that there is another way to live.”
It’s a curious phenomenon that I don’t think is nearly appreciated enough that this technocratic, hubristic mindset that is prevalent among people in tech, riding high on some sense of power and high income, is causing major social issues akin to various other aristocratic type mindsets of the past; the figurative princes riding around their hereditary lands with upturned noses at the peasants they abuse that are both the source and base of their en-titled lives.
Then you add on top of that the insult of immigrants trying to lecture indigenous people they are freeloaders on about how they know better who and what they are, and you have a mixture that seems like it could easily end up boiling over for understandable reasons one day, when the resentment is explosively released because containment by the authoritarian ruling class invariably slips.
So this blog post makes the point clear.
Also, I have to add that I didn't understand why this post was flagged. There must be an explanation for it. There is nothing harmful in this post. I think it is unfair.
I’ll use a metaphor that I think is funny. If life were an office, it is better from a community standpoint to start your life in an open office, and then eventually decide as you get more senior if you want to work from home completely, hybrid, or stay in the open floor plan. The opposite is a disaster, when life begins as a work from home office, from a community perspective, because you don’t have a good bridge to prior generations and other branches of the human genealogy tree.
I’ll end by saying that I love the USA and it has a lot of great attributes as a nation. I honestly wouldn’t have enough time in this comment to go over how many things are done well there. Anyways, I’m just a little worried about the compounding effects from being without community, due to cities designed for cars. Situations like that can be unpredictable and dangerous, with unsavory alternatives suddenly seeming attractive.
Roommates, romantic partners, workmates, and college buds are the saving grace in all this.
It's the main thing I notice that aggravates me when I return to visit the USA: cars, cars everywhere, and few places that allow walking as a reasonable means of transport.
The author should refrain from geographical comparisons and instead simply say "The materialistic vs the altruistic mindset." Because surprise, surprise you will find materialistic and altruistic people on both sides of the Atlantic.
The main difference between the US and the EU is especially in how materialism is shown. In the US there is a strong trend to equate wealth with visible wealth, while in the EU that son of an Empire with three castles might look like a regular guy when you see him with his slightly upstandard car buying groceries at his retailer. Ans I know such people. European rich people don't look rich if you meet them, because displaying your wealth ostentaciously is seen as vulgar. Rich people feel they need to give back to society, so even if they have castles they are used for exhibitions or other community purposes.
This of course also exists in the US, but to a lesser degree and more often as a turn of the century sort of legacy thing
That doesn't sound right to me. Visible wealth has always been something I've equated with "came into some unexpected money (probably not even that much) and immediately blew it" even when my family was not exactly wealthy. As I once saw it put on reddit, things like Gucci are what poor people think rich people buy. My impression has always been that rich people generally don't want to draw attention to themselves in the US either.
Celebrities may flaunt their wealth (and may distort people's perception of what wealthy people are like), but their whole deal is drawing attention to themselves so that makes sense.
Having said that, as an American living in Germany, I lately agree with his description of the difference. And, frankly, I cannot currently see myself ever returning to my home country other than shorter visits.
Meh, Europeans do the same with respect to Americans.
Sounds completely false to me, people are not happy in general (maybe only previous generations), and even less happy are people that love their work where there is no reward, only more administrative tasks and regulations.
The skills are not there anymore, the competency neither, it is not sustainable at all..
But people like their current comfort and do not think too much what will happen next.
Taxes most of the time are used to finance some private company, disguised in fundings. Or taxes are used sustain people that don't work and never will. Someone that doesn't work in my country make 3/4 to 5/4 of someone working 100h a week. It's completely nonsense, they have absolutely no incentives to work, and people are incentived to stop working.
There are almost no working services, and functioning facilities. I really don't identify myself with that so great European mindset.
I'm maybe only one data point that should move to America, but I cannot agree about 'European mindset prioritizes collective well-being and ensuring a high quality of life for everyone'
They often move out of the country, and the ones that remains are often not the better ones.
But yeah, its less expensive, unless you factor all the things that are not reimbursed and the wait times.
I'm loosing karma, I guess I can't express my data point freely.
The European one by the same, except also having lived in Germany for some undisclosed amount of time.
Using this 'experience' to speak authoritatively about the US or Europe as a whole is borderline insulting, regardless of content.
One of the things I have seen, first hand, is when American's buy EU companies and start running them. Or when they open offices over here. The culture shock and friction is immediate. Meta, for example, basically did no labor law research before announcing a layoff, and got slapped hard by the locals. Took years for that process to finally resolve which induced a ton of stress for everyone working there. You also have founders over here that salivate at the Silicon Valley culture and want to emulate it, but for whatever reason don't actually want to move there. They also induce friction in their companies. For what it is worth, I don't want to work at a company with those kinds of cultural influences. And I want to make sure if those companies operate here, we tax them appropriately and force them to behave in an acceptable way that benefits society.
Europe as you know it, the things you like about it is fundamentally doomed because the system is designed to doom it. The EU that was a bait and switch, is now basically being run by a central committee called the EU Commission. Is fundamentally authoritarian and prone to the same failures as all hubristic central committees of know it alls.
It’s the iron triangle and the EU central committee is not only trying to pick all three while lying about it, they’re also trying to pick things outside of the triangle. It cannot and will not work because it is impossible for any amount of time.
You may enjoy it in Europe/Germany, freeloading on all the “social services” that are “free” (even though you will have surely noticed how that is changing quickly) due to the exploitation of what the indigenous people built over decades and centuries, but that’s really what it is, a fraud, even if you don’t realize it.
For example, you very likely make far beyond what the average person in Germany makes. You are living a nice life, based on what those old ethnically German people you see here and there did to rebuild the country after the war, and now get a mere €1000 per month to live on. That’s why you have “free and safe and efficient public transportation” and “free education” because they were exploited all their lives.
It is not a personal thing, it’s an issue with immigration in general as immigration is inherently freeloading when it is into a country that is more advanced or better. At the very least immigration to better countries should come with massive freeloader taxes, and immigration to worse countries should come with low-tax incentives. Just keep it in mind as you benefit from what you enjoy but did not contribute to, and quite likely also support politics of imposition from your island of exclusivity; the same politics that destroyed America.
You may not realize it, but the very same things and people that destroyed the rather nice America of the past are also now destroying Europe. You’re just riding the wave at the moment and get to enjoy the tail end of the oasis. I know this because, as unlikely and weird as it sounds, I know the people whose fathers and grandfathers, their families destroyed America and who are destroying Europe today.
On that note, you seem to be saying that immigration is a form of freeloading in general. But the expense of my upbringing all happened in America, and I basically arrived ready to contribute right away in Germany. And I've paid plenty of taxes along the way.
At the end you make wild assumptions about my political support for which you have no evidence. I'm aware that Germany faces serious issues surrounding immigration, but I didn't think rhetoric which paints the current picture as a catastrophe and inevitable decline into chaos is very helpful.
There are so many other points... It's hard to know what set you off by my mere remark that the author is largely correct in his observations and I prefer living in a country that values free time as well as work!
In that case, don't they contribute more in taxes than whatever tax-funded services they consume?
Reality simply is that freeloading is a condition, not something you need to take personal. If you are equally benefiting from things you did not contribute to at the same total cost as those previously invested, then you are freeloading.
Should you be able to buy Bitcoin today at the original offering price? Should you have equal control as heirs of a company you did not build?
I fail to see why you and seemingly a few other people find that challenging to understand. If you pay the same price to, e.g., ride the “cheap and effective” public transportation in Europe that Europeans have been taxed hundreds of millions in capital costs over several decades to build up, how is that not freeloading?
Sure, you can’t even not freeload if you wanted to by paying higher prices and the real issue are the abusive and toxic governments in Europe in my example, but explain to me how a little old lady that gets €1000/month in pension after a life of turning Europe into what it was until recently, being taxed 40% all get life should pay the same price for a rail ticket as an American making double the European salary and paying around 25% taxes?
These are not challenging concepts. It’s a bit disheartening that presumably technical/dev type people do not understand basic systems.
Don’t get me wrong, you’re not the only one that misses this whole issue. It is a gargantuan elephant in the room that very few people seem to be able to even get even when it is pointed out for some reason. It is fundamentally also the very core issue of “communism” and “capitalism” for that matter, albeit in different ways; wanting to exploit the dries of others’ labor.
This one is a good read: Rözer, J., Lancee, B. & Volker, B. Keeping Up or Giving Up? Income Inequality and Materialism in Europe and the United States. Soc Indic Res 159, 647–666 (2022), see<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11205-021-02760-1>
> Interestingly, Americans report, on average, a weaker materialistic value orientation than Europeans (US average = 1.39, Europe average = 2.08 on a scale from 0 to 5)... However, in both continents, we find a positive association between inequality and materialism: the higher the level of income inequality is, the higher the level of materialistic values is as well.
This doesn't really dispute my understanding, which is that "luxury brands" like Gucci are what lower class poor people buy to feel rich; actual rich people (except specific groups like celebrities who even then might be getting paid to wear "luxury" items) generally do not buy these things. It could be that I grew up in AZ which is near the bottom on the materialism scale, but I've never known conspicuous consumption to be anything other than tacky. Except for SF techies, the rich people I've known have generally been penny pinchers.
I don't use much the Healthcare system in Europe, but I knew someone that had a very rare disease, and in that case there were absolutely no reimbursements, again only one data point.
It's nice and well to say that everyone has 'access' to Healthcare in europe, but if the quality is very low, I'm not sure it's a win. But that's just my opinion.
Please also keep in mind that the healthcare quality might differ a lot per country and region, so you having anecdotal evidence from the inside might feel like you are closer to reality, when in fact it is in comparison the other way around.
Most of the objective metrics I have seen paint a vastely different picture, e.g. here you can see that the quality of the US health care system does apparently translates into a worse outcome for the population: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality...
If a healthcare system sucks at preventing people from dying I am pretty sure it doesn't do a good/affordable job at less light-threatening medical situations. Now I am pretty sure you can get top notch health care in the US if you can afford it, but then again you could probably fly to spain, get an operation there, go on a vacation, fly back and still come out cheaper. There is an abundance of medical travel websites targeted at the US.
And we are not even talking about the utterly dystopian trend of US citizens urging you to not call the ambulance when they broke a bone because they cannot fathom paying for that.
You can't have the good without the bad and this is also true in Europe, but you could also have the bad with the bad while others make money from denying people actually life saving medicine.